Quality of hacks from a casual perspective

2008-10-03 11:06:29 am

Acclaimed Threshold

Constant Sorrows

That was never my motive or intent, but if it seems that way to everyone else then the fault lies with me for being unclear. I'll concede the point and move on.

horscht(i)

2008-10-03 12:43:52 pm

defrag in progress

I have to agree with J-Snake. Some reactions were a bit...how to say..."harsh", since only some feedback was given, what people dislike about hacks up to now. At least for me it sounds like feedback and that`s normally appreciated by artists afaik.

But as I said, most of the new hacks and some of the recently released ones consider most of the items on the list.

Zeku

Edit history:

Zeku: 2008-10-03 01:12:21 pm

2008-10-03 01:09:36 pm

Von Richter, I read what you wrote about Megaman 2+9. I love MM2 quite a bit, and I'm forced to admit that it was pretty easy compared to it's contemporaries.

I'm just curious:

How does the difficulty of MM2 compare to your own game?

Do you think the relative accessibility of MM2 contributed in any way to it's being widely considered the best of the series? (Or was it just the awesome music?)

How important do you consider control complexity to be? Is a pseudo-complex series of button pushes like "mockball" something that should be a baseline and essential technique, or are things like that just a fun technique to be added later? (or something else?)

I do not have an agenda, nor do I even have an opinion on this. I'm just curious what your mindset is.

DonnyDonovan

2008-10-03 01:49:48 pm

FWIW, I thought Acheron's points were fair and well-taken. I went back and re-read the post that started all this and had forgotten that the TC said he played the first 30 minutes of many hacks. I believe this has been mentioned, but I think he somewhat discredits himself right there. Most of these hacks take multiple hours on the first playthrough and to not give them more of a chance than that is not being entirely fair.

Also, I don't quite understand all the griping about difficulty. I am a player of very average skill and have found lots of hacks I can get into. Legacy and SFI are quite easy. Dependence isn't too bad. RevolutionEX is very playable. Golden Dawn and the easy version of Cliffhanger are harder, but I managed to finish both. Volta doesn't seem that tough from the Beta. Aegis sounds as if it will be manageable. If all hacks were easy you'd get just as many complaints as if all hacks were like Impossible or Noobsmasher.

It takes all kinds.

horscht(i)

2008-10-03 02:11:06 pm

defrag in progress

Quote from DonnyDonovan:

Also, I don't quite understand all the griping about difficulty. I am a player of very average skill and have found lots of hacks I can get into. Legacy and SFI are quite easy. Dependence isn't too bad. RevolutionEX is very playable. Golden Dawn and the easy version of Cliffhanger are harder, but I managed to finish both. Volta doesn't seem that tough from the Beta. Aegis sounds as if it will be manageable. If all hacks were easy you'd get just as many complaints as if all hacks were like Impossible or Noobsmasher.

It takes all kinds.

The difficulty discussion is indeed a bit strange. Most of the authors give a list of tricks and skills you have to know to beat the hack. If there are skills, which are out of my scope, than I simply do not play the hack.

But I share some of his thoughts about design and motivation.

KennyMan666

2008-10-03 02:23:39 pm

Viking

Precursor

Quote from Zeku:

1. These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty. (That is not the same thing as saying "It's too hard.") I'm aware that savestates are available, but I really curious why you think this really makes any difference? If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process. This is not any more fun, nor is it any better gameplay than just blowing through a typically easy exploration session.

This. Very, very this. This is something I've seen in hacks for just about every game I've tried hacks for - and often they're only more difficult because... of no real reason, actually. Now, sure, hackers know like... everything about the game, so it may not seem overly difficult to THEM, but for a casual player, a difficulty curve more in line with the original game would be much more comfortable. I'm not completely against making advanced techniques required to beat the thing - but I'd rather see places which can only be reached by, say, mockballing or IBJ'ing to be reserved for items that aren't directly required to beat the game.

As for the rest of your points, the only one I'd be ready to fully agree with is number 3. The others don't bother me that much.

[quote="Zeku"]
1.  These hacks have a needless emphasis on difficulty.  (That is not the same thing as saying "It's too hard.")  I'm aware that savestates are available, but I really curious why you think this really makes any difference?  If jumps are extremely hard, or I encounter strong enemies very early, that just means I hit 'load' a lot, which is a tedious and artificial process.  This is not any more fun, nor is it any better gameplay than just blowing through a typically easy exploration session.[/quote]
This. Very, very this. This is something I've seen in hacks for just about every game I've tried hacks for - and often they're only more difficult because... of no real reason, actually. Now, sure, hackers know like... everything about the game, so it may not seem overly difficult to THEM, but for a casual player, a difficulty curve more in line with the original game would be much more comfortable. I'm not completely against making advanced techniques required to beat the thing - but I'd rather see places which can only be reached by, say, mockballing or IBJ'ing to be reserved for items that aren't directly required to beat the game.

As for the rest of your points, the only one I'd be ready to fully agree with is number 3. The others don't bother me [i]that[/i] much.

xpenzif

2008-10-03 05:17:37 pm

Quote from Zeku:

What's in question is whether the preference of players zealous enough to spend 365 days a year talking about and working on one particular game series is really meaningful outside this rarified setting, or capable of drawing in new fans, or even applicable to anyone else.

I've thought about this myself. And it is probably not meaningful outside of this community. But we're still having fun. That's one of the main reasons for being here.

Just like you, I got into FPS editing. I got really, really good at it. You can't even compare the difficulty of rom hacking to FPS editing. But try making a mod for your fps using only a hex editor, tell me how it goes.

Ultimately, because of the small community and the difficulty of innovation, the reality is that we will eventually move on.