Putting the "NO" in "Norfair" - The No Norfair Run

2011-10-14 06:16:03 am

Without cheats, I've attained 54% on the No Norfair run. (That is, never enter Norfair.)

The game is far more difficult without Norfair tech. No Grapple Beam? No Ice Beam? No Hi-Jump Boots?

Since I can't reliably do Infinite Bomb Jumping, I know 57% is possible. (I missed the Energy Tank in Maridia's Turtle Room, the X-Ray Scope, and the pack of Power Bombs beside my ship.)

The most difficult trick was crossing the Missile Tank Lake without Grapple Beam and Speed Booster. I did the "CWJ" (Corner Wall Jump?) to cross it since I loathe Infinite Bomb Jumping. (Seen here.)

I managed to get to northwest Maridia via Gravity Jumps. (I learned that the later you wait before pushing the Jump button, the higher you can jump.) Coupled with emulator slowdown and save states, I did all this within about 5 hours. (Some of this was research time.)

Draygon is impossible to reach without the Ice Beam and Speed Booster. (Maybe X-Ray climbing would work, but I have no idea how.)

At least this was easier than a SNES reverse boss order run. (Beat Ridley and died to Norfair's heat before I could move. Cursed lots.)

I ended with 140 missiles, 35 super missiles, 30 power bombs, the Charge Beam, the Spazer beam, the two suits, two reserve tanks, 6 energy tanks, my Morphing Ball, and the Bombs. What else could I have gotten that wasn't mentioned in this post?

Thread title:

Without cheats, I've attained 54% on the No Norfair run.  (That is, never enter Norfair.)

The game is [i]far[/i] more difficult without Norfair tech.  No Grapple Beam?  No Ice Beam?  No Hi-Jump Boots?

Since I can't reliably do Infinite Bomb Jumping, I know 57% is possible.  (I missed the Energy Tank in Maridia's Turtle Room, the X-Ray Scope, and the pack of Power Bombs beside my ship.)

The most difficult trick was crossing the Missile Tank Lake without Grapple Beam and Speed Booster.  I did the "CWJ" (Corner Wall Jump?) to cross it since I loathe Infinite Bomb Jumping.  (Seen [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYrTp25Y0Sg]here[/url].)

I managed to get to northwest Maridia via Gravity Jumps.  (I learned that the later you wait before pushing the Jump button, the higher you can jump.)  Coupled with emulator slowdown and save states, I did all this within about 5 hours.  (Some of this was research time.)

Draygon is impossible to reach without the Ice Beam and Speed Booster.  (Maybe X-Ray climbing would work, but I have no idea how.)

At least this was easier than a SNES reverse boss order run.  (Beat Ridley and died to Norfair's heat before I could move.  Cursed lots.)

I ended with 140 missiles, 35 super missiles, 30 power bombs, the Charge Beam, the Spazer beam, the two suits, two reserve tanks, 6 energy tanks, my Morphing Ball, and the Bombs.  What else could I have gotten that wasn't mentioned in this post?

Loudclaw

2011-10-14 03:45:08 pm

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

What about Plasma Beam? I have an emu myself, zsnes. And, I don't use slowdown. I get something wrong, I load my previous savestate. But you could have gotten more capacity expansions, if only a few more. I can't reliably IBJ either, and that's saying something. Usually I can do it perfectly. I beat Ridley and am now on my way to get a hundred percent, using no cheats. I have all main powerups, and plenty of ammunition, but I need all that I can get.

Prime Hunter

2011-10-14 04:27:50 pm

Well, normally you can't get Plasma until defeating Draygon, but there is a trick dealing with X-Ray to get past the locked door, isn't there? I've never done it myself though so I don't know what's involved in that process.

Endarire

2011-10-14 07:30:17 pm

Plasma requires Draygon, glitching, or cheating. Don't know how to glitch in, and I'm not about to cheat.

What other items could I have gotten?

Loudclaw

Edit history:

Loudclaw: 2011-10-14 08:28:52 pm

2011-10-14 08:26:18 pm

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

What else? Let's see, in a No Norfair run....Tell me what's in Norfair, I forgot. WAIT, hang on. I'm going to metroid.wikia.com, it's got that info.

Prime Hunter

Edit history:

Prime Hunter: 2011-10-14 08:30:25 pm

Prime Hunter: 2011-10-14 08:29:40 pm

2011-10-14 08:29:16 pm

Let's see... Just from not going into Norfair alone you immediately lose out on:

Hi-Jump
Speed Booster
Ice Beam
Grapple Beam
Wave Beam
Screw Attack
15 Missiles
1 Super
3 Power Bombs
4 E Tanks
1 Reserve
(Missiles, Supers, and PBs are # of expansions if it's not obvious)

So that's 30 items if my math from a few months back was correct. (Having a list of where everything is helps when hacking so I made one.)

I've got a larger analysis I'm working on right now but that this was at the start.

Loudclaw

Edit history:

Loudclaw: 2011-10-14 08:44:26 pm

Loudclaw: 2011-10-14 08:38:20 pm

2011-10-14 08:34:26 pm

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Okay. Eventually you need to go to Norfair, because there's no other way to get to Tourian. You need to head to Lower Norfair, so on the way out, ONLY pick up the Ice Beam. It's more efficient than 3 Power Bombs a Metroid. You get 50 Power Bombs max, and there's more thn16 Metroids, and they don't all drop Power Bombs. Using your limitations, you only get 35 Power Bombs. Not enough. Just pick up the Ice Beam on your way out of Norfair, and collect the rest of the stuff that's left out of Norfair. And here's the link to X-Ray climbing.

[url][noembed][/url] sorry 'bout that

Loudclaw

2011-10-14 08:50:34 pm

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

now do you understand how to xray climb?

Prime Hunter

2011-10-14 08:53:11 pm

Taking the 30 above into account, the absolute maximum you could theoretically collect IF you could get everything other than Norfair's items is 70%.

No Dragyon = No Plasma and no Space Jump. (68) No Spring Ball either since you either need Grapple to get in normally (with wall jumps) or Ice to freeze one of those bouncing slug things to glitch through the ceiling. (67) There's the one missile pack outside Draygon's room and the 1 E-Tank right after Botwoon you can't get either. (65) Think that's it for Maridia other than what you've mentioned already.

No Speed Booster is a huge one:
Can't get the Reserve in the Wrecked Ship (64)
Can't get the E-Tank behind the Charge Beam in Brinstar (63)
Can't get the Super in the room off of the escape shaft in Crateria (62)
MIGHT not be able to get those two missiles in the same room that's near the Morph Ball. It requires a Shinespark, IBJ, or some really clever wall jumping and being able to lay a bomb in a 1 tile shaft, so for now I'll count those out. (60)

So now let me look at expansion totals and see what you're missing:

Missiles: 230 total - 140 obtained = 90 left, so 18 expansions. 15 of those are in Norfair, so 3 left. 1 is right before Draygon, so we're down to 2 unaccounted for. Are there any others besides the two near Morph that you might not be able to get to?

Supers: 50 total - 35 obtained = 15 left, so 3 expansions. 1 in Norfair, so 2 left. One of these is next to the escape shaft, but you need SB again so now there's only 1 unaccounted for. Where could it be? I can't think of any others that you wouldn't be able to get to so I'm guessing you must missed one somewhere, because it's not coming to me.

PBs: 50 total - 30 obtained = 20 left, so 4 expansions. 3 in Norfair plus the one you can't get, so no more of them.

Reserve Tanks: 4 total - 2 obtained = 2 left. 1 in Norfair, 1 in Wrecked Ship you can't get to without SB, so they're set.

Energy Tanks: 14 total - 6 obtained = 8 left. 4 in Norfair, so 4 left. 1 in Brinstar behind the Charge Beam you can't get to without SB, plus the 1 you can't get in Maridia, PLUS 1 you can't get because it's after Botwoon. So 1 is missing. After thinking about it for a minute, the most likely place it would be is the one in Brinstar behind the PB door with the Side Hoppers in it, since if my map is correct you'd need Wave to get in there because of a gate. So actually, it looks like you've got all of the E-Tanks you can get as well.

So basically, if my math is correct and everything is coming out right, it looks like you may have missed a missile expansion or two somewhere and a Super.

Taking the 30 above into account, the absolute maximum you could theoretically collect IF you could get everything other than Norfair's items is 70%.

No Dragyon = No Plasma and no Space Jump. (68) No Spring Ball either since you either need Grapple to get in normally (with wall jumps) or Ice to freeze one of those bouncing slug things to glitch through the ceiling. (67) There's the one missile pack outside Draygon's room and the 1 E-Tank right after Botwoon you can't get either. (65) Think that's it for Maridia other than what you've mentioned already.

No Speed Booster is a huge one: 
Can't get the Reserve in the Wrecked Ship (64)
Can't get the E-Tank behind the Charge Beam in Brinstar (63)
Can't get the Super in the room off of the escape shaft in Crateria (62)
MIGHT not be able to get those two missiles in the same room that's near the Morph Ball. It requires a Shinespark, IBJ, or some really clever wall jumping and being able to lay a bomb in a 1 tile shaft, so for now I'll count those out. (60)

So now let me look at expansion totals and see what you're missing:

[b]Missiles:[/b] 230 total - 140 obtained = 90 left, so 18 expansions. 15 of those are in Norfair, so 3 left. 1 is right before Draygon, so we're down to 2 unaccounted for. Are there any others besides the two near Morph that you might not be able to get to?

[b]Supers:[/b] 50 total - 35 obtained = 15 left, so 3 expansions. 1 in Norfair, so 2 left.  One of these is next to the escape shaft, but you need SB again so now there's only 1 unaccounted for. Where could it be? I can't think of any others that you wouldn't be able to get to so I'm guessing you must missed one somewhere, because it's not coming to me.

[b]PBs:[/b] 50 total - 30 obtained = 20 left, so 4 expansions. 3 in Norfair plus the one you can't get, so no more of them.

[b]Reserve Tanks:[/b] 4 total - 2 obtained = 2 left. 1 in Norfair, 1 in Wrecked Ship you can't get to without SB, so they're set.

[b]Energy Tanks:[/b] 14 total - 6 obtained = 8 left. 4 in Norfair, so 4 left. 1 in Brinstar behind the Charge Beam you can't get to without SB, plus the 1 you can't get in Maridia, PLUS 1 you can't get because it's after Botwoon. So 1 is missing. After thinking about it for a minute, the most likely place it would be is the one in Brinstar behind the PB door with the Side Hoppers in it, since if my map is correct you'd need Wave to get in there because of a gate. So actually, it looks like you've got all of the E-Tanks you can get as well.

So basically, if my math is correct and everything is coming out right, it looks like you may have missed a missile expansion or two somewhere and a Super.

Prime Hunter

2011-10-14 09:02:26 pm

And yeah, I think it's clear enough in that video, especially after messing around with scroll blocks when in SMILE because there's plenty of times where I've been off the screen like that. Not sure if I'll ever use it in a run but it's still interesting to know how if I change my mind. Thanks for the link to it.

Loudclaw

2011-10-14 09:06:49 pm

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Np. It was my pleasure. Anything to help you try to get high percent. My file wouldn't count as a no Norfair thing, because I've collected most of the stuff there. I'm trying to get cheat codes for ZM and Fusion, both GameShark, on my vba, but that's off topic. As long as you try, you can beat the game. Just make sure you remember-you have to go to Norfair. Just don't collect any items there and you'll be clean. Save-state in every room so if you accidentally collect an item, you can reset and try again. You have to beat Ridley in Lower Norfair, so that's why I'm helping you there.

Quietus

2011-10-15 12:58:58 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

No Speed Booster also rules out the Missiles in your first room in Maridia after the n00b tube (short charge + Spark upward). You also can't get the Missiles or Supers in the big Maridian room with the two sandfalls at the bottom, as they require echo status in one form or another. The two packs of Missiles in Blue Brinstar you're on about are easily obtained.

I'm doing a test run now, excluding X-ray glitching, so I'll update this in a bit.

Quietus

2011-10-15 01:00:00 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

And, Loudclaw, the idea of this run is NOT to finish the game. It's to get as many items as you can without entering Norfair. It's like a NBMB run, and has no official end point.

Prime Hunter

2011-10-15 02:11:22 pm

Quote from Quietus:

No Speed Booster also rules out the Missiles in your first room in Maridia after the n00b tube (short charge + Spark upward). You also can't get the Missiles or Supers in the big Maridian room with the two sandfalls at the bottom, as they require echo status in one form or another. The two packs of Missiles in Blue Brinstar you're on about are easily obtained.

Oh wow, completely forgot about all of those. Of course, now the percentages completely confuse me since the number that was given originally doesn't match up with what my math keeps telling me. I'm probably wrong somewhere though.

And yeah, I figured you could still get those two missiles in Brinstar with either some IBJ work or getting to the top through wall jumps and using a power bomb on the block, but I couldn't remember if it respawned after or not. (I'm assuming no or else it would be a bit harder to get up there) I didn't know how easy either of those would be for Endarire though since he can't IBJ that well, which is why I counted them as part of what he couldn't get, but for most people you're probably right.

[quote="Quietus"]No Speed Booster also rules out the Missiles in your first room in Maridia after the n00b tube (short charge + Spark upward).  You also can't get the Missiles or Supers in the big Maridian room with the two sandfalls at the bottom, as they require echo status in one form or another.  The two packs of Missiles in Blue Brinstar you're on about are easily obtained.[/quote]
Oh wow, completely forgot about all of those. Of course, now the percentages completely confuse me since the number that was given originally doesn't match up with what my math keeps telling me. I'm probably wrong somewhere though.

And yeah, I figured you could still get those two missiles in Brinstar with either some IBJ work or getting to the top through wall jumps and using a power bomb on the block, but I couldn't remember if it respawned after or not. (I'm assuming no or else it would be a bit harder to get up there) I didn't know how easy either of those would be for Endarire though since he can't IBJ that well, which is why I counted them as part of what he couldn't get, but for most people you're probably right.

Quietus

Edit history:

Quietus: 2011-10-15 04:52:36 pm

2011-10-15 04:52:00 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Finished my test run. I make it 59%:

140 Missiles (28%)
35 Supers (35%)
35 Power Bombs (42%)
8 Energy Tanks (50%)
2 Reserve Tanks (52%)
Varia Suit (53%)
Gravity Suit (54%)
Morph Ball (55%)
Bomb (56%)
Charge Beam (57%)
Spazer (58%)
X-Ray Scope (59%)

I included in this percentage the Energy Tank on the right-hand side of the Charge Beam room. I didn't get it in my run, as I got bored of trying. I know it's possible - it's just a pain in the arse to get. Without this, it's seven Energy Tanks.

Here's the map with all of the items you can't get:

And here's my status screen:

As I said, that screen excludes the annoying Energy Tank. stern

I'm not sure what you used your gravity jumps for, Endarire. Think

Loudclaw

Edit history:

Loudclaw: 2011-10-17 01:32:14 am

2011-10-17 12:32:28 am

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Never mind about this...

Loudclaw

2011-10-17 01:28:50 am

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Quote from Quietus:

And, Loudclaw, the idea of this run is NOT to finish the game. It's to get as many items as you can without entering Norfair. It's like a NBMB run, and has no official end point.

And, OK. I never knew that. I've never beaten the game, but I'm getting close to my 100% force-myself-to-do-it goal. Yes, ever since I beat Fusion with all items, I've FORCED myself to beat any Metroid game a hundred percent. And actually, I dare you, Quietus, to beat 3 games of that series. Fusion, with one-percent status. Zero Mission, with 9 percent status on hard mode. Super Metroid, with 3 Energy Tanks, 20 Missiles, 10 Super Missiles, 10 Power Bombs, no Gravity Suit, no Screw Attack, 2 Reserve Tanks, no Plasma or Wave Beam, and no Spring Ball. That's right. No Spring Ball. I want to see if you can do it. Tell me your time for each.

Loudclaw

2011-10-17 01:32:13 am

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Oh, and I forgot...NO SPAZER BEAM. I am putting down the criteria down on Microsoft Work once I can see my stuff up on here. Any moment now.......

Loudclaw

2011-10-17 01:33:27 am

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Actually, Wave Beam is ok, just no Spazer or Plasma.

Prime Hunter

Edit history:

Prime Hunter: 2011-10-17 10:30:17 am

2011-10-17 10:29:59 am

Can you even survive MB's eye laser without Gravity and just 3 E-Tanks and 2 Reserves? I thought she did 600 damage if you didn't have both suits. You'll only have 599 total if you do it that way.

Behemoth

2011-10-17 02:50:05 pm

Quote from Loudclaw:

. And actually, I dare you, Quietus, to beat 3 games of that series. Fusion, with one-percent status. Zero Mission, with 9 percent status on hard mode. Super Metroid, with 3 Energy Tanks, 20 Missiles, 10 Super Missiles, 10 Power Bombs, no Gravity Suit, no Screw Attack, 2 Reserve Tanks, no Plasma or Wave Beam, and no Spring Ball. That's right. No Spring Ball. I want to see if you can do it. Tell me your time for each.

He dares you Quietus, after all, nobody has beaten multiple metroid games and done subsequent challenges within each of them.

But seriously the Super metroid challenge you gave there was not even a low % run, which actually has much harder criteria.

F-Bomb

Edit history:

F-Bomb: 2011-10-17 07:25:31 pm

F-Bomb: 2011-10-17 07:23:03 pm

2011-10-17 07:22:36 pm

The Bomb that says it all .!..

Quote from Loudclaw:

no Spring Ball. That's right. No Spring Ball.

No springball, NO SPRINGBALL, AAAAARRRRRRGGH THIS CHALLENGE IS TOO HARD. (Brain Implodes, World Explodes)

Loudclaw

2011-10-17 08:04:04 pm

Don't cross me, or I will kill you!

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Can you even survive MB's eye laser without Gravity and just 3 E-Tanks and 2 Reserves? I thought she did 600 damage if you didn't have both suits. You'll only have 599 total if you do it that way.

Nope. Only the Varia Suit protects from ANY Laser Brain Attack damage. Once I have all expansions, I shall head into Tourian, and instead of using save rooms, I'll SAVESTATE. Then I'll test. I'll post my results here.

Tyjet66

2011-10-18 12:37:21 am

What'd you say?

Quote from Loudclaw:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Can you even survive MB's eye laser without Gravity and just 3 E-Tanks and 2 Reserves? I thought she did 600 damage if you didn't have both suits. You'll only have 599 total if you do it that way.

Nope. Only the Varia Suit protects from ANY Laser Brain Attack damage. Once I have all expansions, I shall head into Tourian, and instead of using save rooms, I'll SAVESTATE. Then I'll test. I'll post my results here.

I hate to say it dude, but you are getting trolled. You do realize that this community consists of some of the most elite Metroid players, right?

Prime Hunter

2011-10-18 09:52:05 am

You talking to me or him?