Nice, go get that sub 30!
and now mobius beats my time. time for me to step it up and get sub 30 first #SwiftRage
Archived M2K2 Forum
YES YES YES YES YES SUB-30!!! 29:28!!!!!!!
EDIT: It was a VERY GOOD run, considering I don't really practice any% as much. Every boss fight was perfect, I went into the zebetite room with 50 missiles 4 supers and full health, with fantastic farming luck. The biggest mistake was forgetting to kill a space pirate just before iron ted, so i lost around 5-6 seconds waiting for the door to open thanks to the alarm. Otherwise it was purely minor optimizations that I missed out on.
Congrats to all on the nice PBs that have been happening recently. It's good to see any% getting some attention too.
As for me, I just finished a 50:58 100% SS, using the AWS route with late long and full early Brinstar cleanup. It was a really solid run, though I think I'll try to improve it a bit more; it was a little messier than I'd like (especially near the beginning), and one room in particular was really bad. Still, though, it's cool to get sub 51. I'll upload this probably sometime tomorrow/tonight.
On a related note, I discovered that I'm much better at getting double missiles on Kraid when I leave the D-pad alone and use my two thumbs for the A and B buttons. It does increase the risk of getting knocked off of the platform, but I usually get 2-round or fast 3-round fights now.
As for me, I just finished a 50:58 100% SS, using the AWS route with late long and full early Brinstar cleanup. It was a really solid run, though I think I'll try to improve it a bit more; it was a little messier than I'd like (especially near the beginning), and one room in particular was really bad. Still, though, it's cool to get sub 51. I'll upload this probably sometime tomorrow/tonight.
On a related note, I discovered that I'm much better at getting double missiles on Kraid when I leave the D-pad alone and use my two thumbs for the A and B buttons. It does increase the risk of getting knocked off of the platform, but I usually get 2-round or fast 3-round fights now.
He can theoretically get sub-50... my save-state run got 49:59. But it got godly luck at tourian (10 supers going into zebetite room IIRC. what.) and I didn't do any luck manip, so uh... lmao.
Anyways, waiting for the video so we canbash it all day MWAH HA HA HA
Anyways, waiting for the video so we can
The congrats are much appreciated. Without further ado, here is the run.
Some notes about the run:
-I got bad refills after the beamst, so I only had 2 missiles going into the hive room. This seems to have cost a good chunk of time, since I had 1:54 at the end of the room, whereas sam and I figure 1:47 should be possible there. (I've had as low as 1:49 in the past.)
-The bugs after getting bombs were really nice, though.
-6:48 was ... unfortunate. I don't know how I messed up that badly. ;_;
-9:15 was similarly unfortunate and strange.
-2 round Kraid fight, huzzah.
-20:00 was really silly.
-I used my beam on the first of the twin worms because I was worried about my missile count. Of course, I then got a bunch of missile drops ... but using the beam shouldn't be much slower.
-I don't know if the shinespark in the cocoon fight is actually any faster; I just thought I'd try it because it looks cool.
-Only one super drop from Ridley. ;(
-Using the music as a rough guide, the Imago fight doesn't seem like it was any faster, even though I finished it off earlier. Maybe I should conserve supers for Tourian and use, say, 6 supers for Imago instead of 8?
-48:07: Does the robot stop walking sometime before it runs into the wall? I hadn't had this happen before. Should I shoot the first missile as I jump up to grab the ledge? Or, better yet, equip supers before entering that room and then shoot it with a super during my jump?
-This run looks like it'll be really hard to beat, so I hope you guys know some nice tricks that I missed. :p
Some notes about the run:
-I got bad refills after the beamst, so I only had 2 missiles going into the hive room. This seems to have cost a good chunk of time, since I had 1:54 at the end of the room, whereas sam and I figure 1:47 should be possible there. (I've had as low as 1:49 in the past.)
-The bugs after getting bombs were really nice, though.
-6:48 was ... unfortunate. I don't know how I messed up that badly. ;_;
-9:15 was similarly unfortunate and strange.
-2 round Kraid fight, huzzah.
-20:00 was really silly.
-I used my beam on the first of the twin worms because I was worried about my missile count. Of course, I then got a bunch of missile drops ... but using the beam shouldn't be much slower.
-I don't know if the shinespark in the cocoon fight is actually any faster; I just thought I'd try it because it looks cool.
-Only one super drop from Ridley. ;(
-Using the music as a rough guide, the Imago fight doesn't seem like it was any faster, even though I finished it off earlier. Maybe I should conserve supers for Tourian and use, say, 6 supers for Imago instead of 8?
-48:07: Does the robot stop walking sometime before it runs into the wall? I hadn't had this happen before. Should I shoot the first missile as I jump up to grab the ledge? Or, better yet, equip supers before entering that room and then shoot it with a super during my jump?
-This run looks like it'll be really hard to beat, so I hope you guys know some nice tricks that I missed. :p
This is not intended as a criticism of spidey, but it makes me a little sad that if/when RTA leaderboards go up on SRL, this time is going to look a little less impressive than it actually is because of pauses to check time and such. I don't know if it'd ever come to this, but it'd probably be possible to get a faster RTA run with a game time over 51:30, which would cause problems for SRL trying to define what the record is. Again, not blaming spidey, just blaming game mechanics in general :/
Quote from Thomaz:
Which is why I prefer in-game times over SRL timing for MZM. In-game timer is a good way to know how well (or how bad...) you're doing. It's functions the same way for SRL timing, but pausing and slight route changes differ a lot. A bit too much for my taste.
Technically the route that spidey uses is the best console route for both RTA and in-game time :P It saves a lot less time in RTA, but the AWS route is still faster.
Oh, and spidey, I uploaded my own save-state speed run here and it gets 49:59, so you can watch it to see if there are any strats I use that you're missing out on. There are a few things I'm missing out on too, so yeah <_<
There are two really risky minor time savers I use:
1. The walljump for the missile tank while leaving Ridley. I can do it around %40-50 of the time, but it's not easy at all, and you're probably better off just IBJing it.
2. Spaceboost at the very end. It saves a half second as opposed to ballsparking, and it's honestly not hard once you know where all the breakable speed boost blocks are. But of course... it's incredibly risky, and chances are, if you got a good run this far, you'd probably screw up from nerves (I would <_< )
I'll go through your run with comments and ways to improve, hopefully by tonight (HYPEHYPEHYPE)
and stream it MWAH HA HA HA HA.
Spidey:
- 19:30: I haven't seen this strat for the room before, I'm not sure if it's faster or not. Multiple bomb jumps tell me no, but clearing all the blocks and an earlier shinespark back says maybe. I'll have to check it out.
- 24:30: I would still recommend at least bonking early here. I know the latest TAS WIP doesn't do it, but it only saved 1 frame and that was with optimized jumping.
- 25:45: I'm still not sure if this spark is worth it with late long, I need to seriously time it one of these days.
This is true, as long as you kill him in one round, the only thing that really matters is getting back to the left fast enough. There's even been talk about doing Imago before Ridley. There are several advantages to this, but it would pretty much require us to not use supers on cocoon.
That WAS weird. It stops when you roll into it but you clearly hit it with a super before that, it just tinks for no apparent reason. I'll just mention that I think we should use supers for everything pre-refill. There is very little reason not to. And not having to switch constantly makes Chozodia slightly easier.
- 50:40: Shooting this guy to the left should only be done if you have to use normal missiles, with supers it's really easy to get him far enough to the right to not screw up the speed boost.
- 54:35: This is kind of a nitpick, but jumping up here on the platforms with a strategy is actually about half a second faster than just space jumping.
- 57:50: Aw, that sucks. There is a really easy visual cue for a shot to open the door and still get a charge. After the slope there is a group of plant things, then a big gap and a lonely plant thing in the background, shooting right as you run past the lonely one always works.
- 58:40: There is also a really reliable backup strat that Zx found if you fail to break all the blocks here. In theory it's actually faster than the normal strat, but it's kind of hassle for a very small gain. If you stand right to the left of the final block you need to break, jump, and shoot a full charge beam (important for some reason), you'll hit the zip trigger. This gives you enough of a head start to start rolling to the left and springball up to the zipline after it passes all the blocks. It's kind of tricky if you don't break any blocks, but otherwise it's pretty easy.
- 1:06:40 : I really need to post my strat for the geemer maze sometime...
Congratulations on the run though. I have faith you can get sub-50 eventually ;).
- 19:30: I haven't seen this strat for the room before, I'm not sure if it's faster or not. Multiple bomb jumps tell me no, but clearing all the blocks and an earlier shinespark back says maybe. I'll have to check it out.
- 24:30: I would still recommend at least bonking early here. I know the latest TAS WIP doesn't do it, but it only saved 1 frame and that was with optimized jumping.
- 25:45: I'm still not sure if this spark is worth it with late long, I need to seriously time it one of these days.
Quote from spidey-widey:
-Using the music as a rough guide, the Imago fight doesn't seem like it was any faster, even though I finished it off earlier. Maybe I should conserve supers for Tourian and use, say, 6 supers for Imago instead of 8?
This is true, as long as you kill him in one round, the only thing that really matters is getting back to the left fast enough. There's even been talk about doing Imago before Ridley. There are several advantages to this, but it would pretty much require us to not use supers on cocoon.
Quote from spidey-widey:
-48:07: Does the robot stop walking sometime before it runs into the wall? I hadn't had this happen before. Should I shoot the first missile as I jump up to grab the ledge? Or, better yet, equip supers before entering that room and then shoot it with a super during my jump?
That WAS weird. It stops when you roll into it but you clearly hit it with a super before that, it just tinks for no apparent reason. I'll just mention that I think we should use supers for everything pre-refill. There is very little reason not to. And not having to switch constantly makes Chozodia slightly easier.
- 50:40: Shooting this guy to the left should only be done if you have to use normal missiles, with supers it's really easy to get him far enough to the right to not screw up the speed boost.
- 54:35: This is kind of a nitpick, but jumping up here on the platforms with a strategy is actually about half a second faster than just space jumping.
- 57:50: Aw, that sucks. There is a really easy visual cue for a shot to open the door and still get a charge. After the slope there is a group of plant things, then a big gap and a lonely plant thing in the background, shooting right as you run past the lonely one always works.
- 58:40: There is also a really reliable backup strat that Zx found if you fail to break all the blocks here. In theory it's actually faster than the normal strat, but it's kind of hassle for a very small gain. If you stand right to the left of the final block you need to break, jump, and shoot a full charge beam (important for some reason), you'll hit the zip trigger. This gives you enough of a head start to start rolling to the left and springball up to the zipline after it passes all the blocks. It's kind of tricky if you don't break any blocks, but otherwise it's pretty easy.
- 1:06:40 : I really need to post my strat for the geemer maze sometime...
Congratulations on the run though. I have faith you can get sub-50 eventually ;).
Quote from kirbymastah:
1. The walljump for the missile tank while leaving Ridley. I can do it around %40-50 of the time, but it's not easy at all, and you're probably better off just IBJing it.
I think the second best bet is to utilize your Jump Ball, and start the IBJ mid-air. Similarly when bomb-jumping off a lava to get the early Super in Norfair, if you hold jump, and then start laying down bombs with the double bomb-jump timing, they'll catch you mid-air. This allows you to get up there with four bombs (two sets of two bombs), with the use of the Power Grip.
Beyond that, there's the short Space Boost right before re-entering Tourian (this would substitute the Ball Spark after laying down the Power Bomb to break the Crateria Rock). It's worth a shot: even if you fail the Space Boost, you'll only lose like a second, and that's pretty much what you gain with a successful Space Boost there. So, it's a one second gamble for a possible one second gain, and not that terrible to pull off.
Anyway, regarding the run, it was incredible to see everything we've talked about for the past 6 months or so come together into something like this, and it's even more incredible to think Spidey's actually able to pull off this route like intended, without any major mistakes, and only a handful of chunky time losses, absolutely awesome. But I think it's pretty clear what the best part of the run is anyway, 27:30. Hell yeah, man, finally the world record has some useless Charge Beam shenanigans.
Quote from Mobiusman:
This is not intended as a criticism of spidey, but it makes me a little sad that if/when RTA leaderboards go up on SRL, this time is going to look a little less impressive than it actually is because of pauses to check time and such. I don't know if it'd ever come to this, but it'd probably be possible to get a faster RTA run with a game time over 51:30, which would cause problems for SRL trying to define what the record is. Again, not blaming spidey, just blaming game mechanics in general :/
I personally don't mind pausing. I like pausing to look at my times much more than using splits personally, and the game timer really is accurate enough to use rather than using real time.
53:50 ss 100% on another note. Terrible but whatever.
Quote from Dragonfangs:
Quote from spidey-widey:
-Using the music as a rough guide, the Imago fight doesn't seem like it was any faster, even though I finished it off earlier. Maybe I should conserve supers for Tourian and use, say, 6 supers for Imago instead of 8?
This is true, as long as you kill him in one round, the only thing that really matters is getting back to the left fast enough. There's even been talk about doing Imago before Ridley. There are several advantages to this, but it would pretty much require us to not use supers on cocoon.
However, as a plus, it means you don't need to conserve a super for the green door, since you're gonna get a super missile tank after imago anyways. Imago without supers isn't too bad honestly, with some practice, as long as you have hi-jump. Also, the extra two super will make it less luck reliant to get enough supers to skip a refill for ridley (it rarely should happen regardless), and if you get lucky, you can come into the ridley room with 11 supers instead of 9 ;)
But yeah, this definitely needs a bit of research.
By the way, if you do imago early, then wouldn't that make it viable to skip refilling before tourian? You don't use any supers after ridley, so you can get plenty of super drops from ridley, the crowded tunnel you speed boost through, and the owls later; you normally go for supers to fight imago, but since imago's already dead, you can maybe skip the refill to compensate for the time you lose on not using supers on cocoon? This might've already been discussed before :S
0:40 - ZX suggested that if the Geemer is on the top of the door, you should shoot and run through the door, then morph at the start of the room.
3:18 - if the bottom-right geemer is moving right, I just shoot it with my beam to hitstun it; it's just enough so i can reliably get on the platform without touching it. Not a big deal, but you save a missile (and maybe like a frame on refilling)
4:44 - I'm pretty sure it's faster to unmorph then jump then BJ, instead of BJing twice off the statue
5:55 - Just as you run off the ledge, you can shoot down at the block without having to land. It's a tricky timing
6:15 - Have you actually been able to make that first IBJ there? With that ripper placement, I personally would've waited until the bottom one moves out of the way, then IBJ straight up along the right wall, then diagonally left after passing the top ripper. My personal rule for this is, if the top ripper is touching the left wall, start IBJing diagonally left then straight up. If the top ripper is touching the right wall, then start IBJing straight up along the right wall then diagonally left. As long as I don't mess up my IBJ, it's very consistent.
8:27 - My strat for the two first blocks is to stand on the left edge of the ground, jump and shoot twice. Short beam can reach the two blocks.
8:40 - For the last two 2x2 blocks, I prefer to jump forward then shoot two missiles left; it works for me.
9:15 - A jump bomb jump is faster here, and it's not too hard if you can do a jump bomb jump.
9:37 - A jump bomb jump works here too, but it's a lot harder since you have to reach a higher spot. I don't go for it.
10:30 - YOU DON'T DOUBLE MISSILE EVERY SHORT HOP WTAHEWOGEHWIGHG REJECTTTTTTT
12:17 - Wouldn't it be a bit faster to unmorph just as you roll out of the alcove, instead of after falling?
12:22 - You can snipe the last skree with a diagonal missile from farther left; probably saves a tiny bit of time
13:57 - You probably know, and just made a mistake, but just in case it wasn't a mistake, shoot two missiles instead to clear both blocks
14:49 - Just after you destroy the activated block, you can morph, plant a bomb in the middle, then jump and morph to skip a bomb jump. It's basically a jump bomb jump; I should do it in my save-state run.
16:03 - I think if the ripper is in that position, you're better off just climbing the ledge and damage boosting onto it instead of waiting for it to go left. Not a big deal but still :P
16:56 - You can start running about one block farther right (basically, right below the edge of the ledge with the missile tank.
19:38 -Wow, what you do is actually faster than what I do. Anyways, dfangs said you should shinespark instead of ballspark right, after getting the missile tank.
21:10 - Immediately after getting wave beam, I morph while running off the ledge towards the door, so I don't have to stop to morph.
24:03 - Shoot one wave shot up then three missiles, instead of 5 missiles.
24:35 - If you're not going to spark all the way across, it may be worth stopping briefly to get super drops that spawn?
30:05 - Unmorph just as you pop out of the tunnel
41:52 - Again, not sure if this was a mistake, but in case it wasn't a mistake, you should stop and shoot twice instead of stop, shoot, stop shoot.
44:57 - No glitch. Reset.
47:02 - I charge my beam before the door, so I can kill the first pirate instantly by releasing it during the transition. Doesn't save time, but hey, it's a nice convenience.
49:59 - I spring ball through the door so I can plant it higher immediately after the room transition, rather than spring balling after the transition.
52:42 - You can shoot the door diagonally from the floor here, while speedboosting, so you won't have to shoot it before shinesparking.
52:50 - You can put the power bomb a few blocks farther right.
56:09 - Dragonfangs said the second block is shootable, so you don't have to bomb it. After shooting down when starting to fall, charge your beam and when you morph, you'll shoot the block. Or just shot diagonally.
57:52 - There's an easy visual cue for opening the door and charging it so you can pull off the short space boost. There's a lone rock in the background; shoot and charge just when you pass it.
58:10 - Just when you enter this room, shoot your beam up to open the door and start charging while space jumping up. It should be fully charged when you enter the giant sidehopper room, so you can shoot it without having to screw attack it.
58:42 - For this space boost, I don't like to try to hug the ceiling. I just do three big space jumps after passing the pit of sidehoppers, doing a jump between each set of speed boost blocks so I can ensure I'm high enough.
1:00:19 - You can put the power bomb a bit farther left.
1:01:30 - I'm pretty sure it's a bit faster to just run in the lava on the way out; I forgot if you get hit by the hoppy thing though.
1:04:56 - no need to jump over this. I just morph at the start of the room after running off the starting ledge, and roll through.
1:05:14 - nooooo don't fire three missiles :( One missile + beam is enough
1:10:34 - I'm guessing you meant to shinecharge but missed it? :( Regardless, once you shine charge, it's like 10 frames faster to run off the higher block and shinespark into the slope rather than shinespark immediately.
1:12:24 - Shoot diagonally down-right while speed boosting so you can kill the pirate maybe? I have had problems with it before, but if you don't, then whatever floats your boat.
3:18 - if the bottom-right geemer is moving right, I just shoot it with my beam to hitstun it; it's just enough so i can reliably get on the platform without touching it. Not a big deal, but you save a missile (and maybe like a frame on refilling)
4:44 - I'm pretty sure it's faster to unmorph then jump then BJ, instead of BJing twice off the statue
5:55 - Just as you run off the ledge, you can shoot down at the block without having to land. It's a tricky timing
6:15 - Have you actually been able to make that first IBJ there? With that ripper placement, I personally would've waited until the bottom one moves out of the way, then IBJ straight up along the right wall, then diagonally left after passing the top ripper. My personal rule for this is, if the top ripper is touching the left wall, start IBJing diagonally left then straight up. If the top ripper is touching the right wall, then start IBJing straight up along the right wall then diagonally left. As long as I don't mess up my IBJ, it's very consistent.
8:27 - My strat for the two first blocks is to stand on the left edge of the ground, jump and shoot twice. Short beam can reach the two blocks.
8:40 - For the last two 2x2 blocks, I prefer to jump forward then shoot two missiles left; it works for me.
9:15 - A jump bomb jump is faster here, and it's not too hard if you can do a jump bomb jump.
9:37 - A jump bomb jump works here too, but it's a lot harder since you have to reach a higher spot. I don't go for it.
10:30 - YOU DON'T DOUBLE MISSILE EVERY SHORT HOP WTAHEWOGEHWIGHG REJECTTTTTTT
12:17 - Wouldn't it be a bit faster to unmorph just as you roll out of the alcove, instead of after falling?
12:22 - You can snipe the last skree with a diagonal missile from farther left; probably saves a tiny bit of time
13:57 - You probably know, and just made a mistake, but just in case it wasn't a mistake, shoot two missiles instead to clear both blocks
14:49 - Just after you destroy the activated block, you can morph, plant a bomb in the middle, then jump and morph to skip a bomb jump. It's basically a jump bomb jump; I should do it in my save-state run.
16:03 - I think if the ripper is in that position, you're better off just climbing the ledge and damage boosting onto it instead of waiting for it to go left. Not a big deal but still :P
16:56 - You can start running about one block farther right (basically, right below the edge of the ledge with the missile tank.
19:38 -Wow, what you do is actually faster than what I do. Anyways, dfangs said you should shinespark instead of ballspark right, after getting the missile tank.
21:10 - Immediately after getting wave beam, I morph while running off the ledge towards the door, so I don't have to stop to morph.
24:03 - Shoot one wave shot up then three missiles, instead of 5 missiles.
24:35 - If you're not going to spark all the way across, it may be worth stopping briefly to get super drops that spawn?
30:05 - Unmorph just as you pop out of the tunnel
41:52 - Again, not sure if this was a mistake, but in case it wasn't a mistake, you should stop and shoot twice instead of stop, shoot, stop shoot.
44:57 - No glitch. Reset.
47:02 - I charge my beam before the door, so I can kill the first pirate instantly by releasing it during the transition. Doesn't save time, but hey, it's a nice convenience.
49:59 - I spring ball through the door so I can plant it higher immediately after the room transition, rather than spring balling after the transition.
52:42 - You can shoot the door diagonally from the floor here, while speedboosting, so you won't have to shoot it before shinesparking.
52:50 - You can put the power bomb a few blocks farther right.
56:09 - Dragonfangs said the second block is shootable, so you don't have to bomb it. After shooting down when starting to fall, charge your beam and when you morph, you'll shoot the block. Or just shot diagonally.
57:52 - There's an easy visual cue for opening the door and charging it so you can pull off the short space boost. There's a lone rock in the background; shoot and charge just when you pass it.
58:10 - Just when you enter this room, shoot your beam up to open the door and start charging while space jumping up. It should be fully charged when you enter the giant sidehopper room, so you can shoot it without having to screw attack it.
58:42 - For this space boost, I don't like to try to hug the ceiling. I just do three big space jumps after passing the pit of sidehoppers, doing a jump between each set of speed boost blocks so I can ensure I'm high enough.
1:00:19 - You can put the power bomb a bit farther left.
1:01:30 - I'm pretty sure it's a bit faster to just run in the lava on the way out; I forgot if you get hit by the hoppy thing though.
1:04:56 - no need to jump over this. I just morph at the start of the room after running off the starting ledge, and roll through.
1:05:14 - nooooo don't fire three missiles :( One missile + beam is enough
1:10:34 - I'm guessing you meant to shinecharge but missed it? :( Regardless, once you shine charge, it's like 10 frames faster to run off the higher block and shinespark into the slope rather than shinespark immediately.
1:12:24 - Shoot diagonally down-right while speed boosting so you can kill the pirate maybe? I have had problems with it before, but if you don't, then whatever floats your boat.