Possible new 100% route

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-26 09:25:11 pm

2012-12-26 09:24:05 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Because a new glitch, the sandigger SW located in agon, was found after the 1:56 was recorded (i believe) we where talking about a potentially new 100% route, i decided to make a new thread to continue the discussion where it belongs to be.
The idea is to do the sandigger SW after you kill the MBB-guardian to get the dark and the light beam faster, which could probably save a couple of minutes of backtracking, basically the pirate base. also you could kill the SJ- guardian a lot of faster by shooting it with light beam instead of charge/missile. another idea i have is to do amorbis right after SJ-guardian to make the rest of the game easier because you have the dark suit for the rest of the game saving a lot of issues with energy, which also could speed up the gameplay.
You can find the current record with the current route on SDA: http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?MetroidEchoes_SS_100p_156
However, its not entirely guaranteed that it is worth it to do the sandigger SW, because it would probably change the later route majorly costing additional time later in the run. the new route also, will probably make the beginning of the game a lot harder.

Thread title:

Because a new glitch, the sandigger SW located in agon, was found after the 1:56 was recorded (i believe) we where talking about a potentially new 100% route, i decided to make a new thread to continue the discussion where it belongs to be.
The idea is to do the sandigger SW after you kill the MBB-guardian to get the dark and the light beam faster, which could probably save a couple of minutes of backtracking, basically the pirate base. also you could kill the SJ- guardian a lot of faster by shooting it with light beam instead of charge/missile. another idea i have is to do amorbis right after SJ-guardian to make the rest of the game easier because you have the dark suit for the rest of the game saving a lot of issues with energy, which also could speed up the gameplay.
You can find the current record with the current route on SDA: http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?MetroidEchoes_SS_100p_156
However, its not entirely guaranteed that it is worth it to do the sandigger SW, because it would probably change the later route majorly costing additional time later in the run. the new route also, will probably make the beginning of the game a lot harder.

Fox128

Edit history:

Fox128: 2012-12-26 10:04:54 pm

Fox128: 2012-12-26 10:03:05 pm

Fox128: 2012-12-26 10:02:39 pm

Fox128: 2012-12-26 10:01:29 pm

Fox128: 2012-12-26 09:59:46 pm

2012-12-26 09:59:19 pm

I cannot imagine doing Amorbis early saving time over the run. Energy management isn't all that much of an issue for a 100% really, simply because of all the e-tanks you get. Ofc there are some close situations - some of which may require you to get a quick refill here and there but they don't add up to the time lost compared to fighting Amorbis at all I think (often times you won't even lose time refilling due to loading times) and most of these can be completely avoided by just rushing the dark world fast enough - if you're not fast enough, in some of the spots, you might die. But then again if you're not fast enough in a speedrun in spots where otherwise it's entirley humanly possible to survive, you deserve to die anyway. :P

But then again, I was wrong many times before. So feel free to prove me wrong

MilesSMB

Edit history:

MilesSMB: 2012-12-26 10:30:06 pm

2012-12-26 10:10:30 pm

1. Sandigger SW is insanely old...
2. Light Beam would probably save ~27 seconds on Jump Guardian, plus Dark Beam would save a random optimistic guess of 10 seconds on the Portal Terminal pirates. I don't see how you could possibly lose less than that from not having Space Jump yet, it's so damn slow to get through rooms without it.
3. Amorbis requires keys. >_>
4. There's several time losses from doing the wallcrawl; backtracking to Mining Plaza in the first place, ~~the stupid room reloading method for getting the Beam Ammo~~, then later on having to go through Ventilation Area B "normally" backwards, and backtracking to get the Command Center missile, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. The wallcrawl does save a ton of time over going through the Base normally, but you'd need to see how much it would after those losses are taken into account.
Edit: Completely forgot that you have to leave Agon by going backwards through the Pirate Base, I'm so used to having Spider. Obviously you'd get the Beam Ammo then, but this also means you have to scan open the entrance in Mining Station A during the wallcrawl, which IIRC costs a lot of time because the scan point doesn't exist unless you're close to it.

1. Sandigger SW is insanely old...
2. Light Beam would probably save ~27 seconds on Jump Guardian, plus Dark Beam would save a random optimistic guess of 10 seconds on the Portal Terminal pirates. I don't see how you could possibly lose less than that from not having Space Jump yet, it's so damn slow to get through rooms without it. 
3. Amorbis requires keys. >_>
4. There's several time losses from doing the wallcrawl; backtracking to Mining Plaza in the first place, [s]the stupid room reloading method for getting the Beam Ammo[/s], then later on having to go through Ventilation Area B "normally" backwards, and backtracking to get the Command Center missile, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. The wallcrawl does save a ton of time over going through the Base normally, but you'd need to see how much it would after those losses are taken into account.
Edit: Completely forgot that you have to leave Agon by going backwards through the Pirate Base, I'm so used to having Spider. Obviously you'd get the Beam Ammo then, but this also means you have to scan open the entrance in Mining Station A during the wallcrawl, which IIRC costs a lot of time because the scan point doesn't exist unless you're close to it.

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 12:36:59 pm

2012-12-27 12:24:15 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Well...i dunno how much time you'll loose from not having space jump in that section, but i doubt that its more than 37 seconds. In my head, there are 5 spots in the pirate base where it will cost time and all of them are not much of a big deal, its probably pretty similar to the normal route -the biggest loss is probably getting in the dark world for the first time in pirate base, where you have to do a bomb jump, which you have to do twice, however i highly doubt theres another way getting up there so avoiding that loss is impossible.
The 2nd one is the one behind the light portal, where you have to BSJ from the ing cache which wastes a lot of time, when you miss it.
3rd the platforms, where you have to scan the scan posts, which you need to solve with scan dashes, not too bad i think you can still get the same cycle, as you would do in a usual single segment cause theres about a 3-4 second window of time to waste.
4th is the room before light beam, where you have to lower the platforms using the dark beam. Maybe you can BSJ ~~or Roll jump~~ up to one of those platforms.
5th yeah the bomb jump, which i mentioned first again.

I doubt that those strats are costing more then 37 seconds, but even if it is like ~15 seconds faster ... That wouldn't really mean anything right? Cause all what really matters is the later part i guess and well idk the 100% really good to be honest.
In fact, its always the best to test the route for once to see if its worth it ...
Also, wouldn't it be possible to get the scan post at mining station a before fighting bomb guardian? i don't think that takes too long, does it?
.... oh, well doing the SW after its activated-there might be a fast way to wallcrawl past that. I already had that sometimes in my 100% file where i practiced sandigger, currently i ended up taking the other side of the door, which is about 4 seconds slower i guess. (probably a very optimisitc guess)
~~Than theres the amorbis keys..~~ the first one is pretty much on your way well the second one requires to fight the ings.... Oh well, so dont fight amorbis- unless you find a way to wallcrawl to it to skip the keys, but the chances for that are pretty bleak, since currently theres no SW in agon beside the sandigger unless you use SA. I tried to go into the fight with instant morphs and i messed around with BSJ's everywhere and came to the result, that its completely impossible to trigger that fight without the keys, because theres absolutely no way to get to it.

Well...i dunno how much time you'll loose from not having space jump in that section, but i doubt that its more than 37 seconds. In my head, there are 5 spots in the pirate base where it will cost time and all of them are not much of a big deal, its probably pretty similar to the normal route -the biggest loss is probably getting in the dark world for the first time in pirate base, where you have to do a bomb jump, which you have to do twice, however i highly doubt theres another way getting up there so avoiding that loss is impossible.
The 2nd one is the one behind the light portal, where you have to BSJ from the ing cache which wastes a lot of time, when you miss it.
3rd the platforms, where you have to scan the scan posts, which you need to solve with scan dashes, not too bad i think you can still get the same cycle, as you would do in a usual single segment cause theres about a 3-4 second window of time to waste.
4th is the room before light beam, where you have to lower the platforms using the dark beam. Maybe you can BSJ [s]or Roll jump[/s] up to one of those platforms.
5th yeah the bomb jump, which i mentioned first again.

I doubt that those strats are costing more then 37 seconds, but even if it is like ~15 seconds faster ... That wouldn't really mean anything right? Cause all what really matters is the later part i guess and well idk the 100% really good to be honest.
In fact, its always the best to test the route for once to see if its worth it ...
Also, wouldn't it be possible to get the scan post at mining station a before fighting bomb guardian? i don't think that takes too long, does it?
.... oh, well doing the SW after its activated-there might be a fast way to wallcrawl past that. I already had that sometimes in my 100% file where i practiced sandigger, currently i ended up taking the other side of the door, which is about 4 seconds slower i guess.  [size="3"](probably a very optimisitc guess)[/size]
[s]Than theres the amorbis keys..[/s] the first one is pretty much on your way well the second one requires to fight the ings.... Oh well, so dont fight amorbis- unless you find a way to wallcrawl to it to skip the keys, but the chances for that are pretty bleak, since currently theres no SW in agon beside the sandigger unless you use SA. I tried to go into the fight with instant morphs and i messed around with BSJ's everywhere and came to the result, that its completely impossible to trigger that fight without the keys, because theres absolutely no way to get to it.

ptorflaxendrosis

2012-12-27 07:32:01 pm

Quote from MrSpEeDrUn:

Well...i dunno how much time you'll loose from not having space jump in that section

Lose*

...LOSE***

arkarian

2012-12-27 07:46:00 pm

red chamber dream

you obviously knew what he meant

Tyjet66

Edit history:

Tyjet66: 2012-12-27 07:50:40 pm

2012-12-27 07:50:27 pm

What'd you say?

Quote from arkarian:

you obviously knew what he meant

You*

...HAD TO...

Lol.

Pawbdr

2012-12-27 08:25:41 pm

Afaik the trigger to start the battle for amorbis is like one step past the gate that lowers when you have the keys. As seen in miles' "literal amorbis skip" video, you can just space jump right by it. You might have better luck tryin IS to trigger the battle over BSJ's but that's just my opinion

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 10:04:46 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 10:04:39 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 10:03:05 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 10:02:38 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 10:02:11 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-27 10:01:11 pm

2012-12-27 09:48:12 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Thats not worth it even if you where able to trigger IS.

Getting the key skip would save around 30 seconds plus you would have darksuit for the game which surely is useful.
Getting dark suit the normal way is probably around 40 seconds slower than doing it the way miles did, also you would not have the later weapons for amorbis. Well i dont think that matters though... But yeah 40 seconds. So forget about doing amorbis early for miles's route. (triggering IS alone takes ~49 seconds)
If you're not extremely good in 100% i would recomment you to take it anyways, because have fun in torvus at the boost guardian, at quadraxis probably, at the annoying part with the powerbomb guardian, the part with the grapple guardian and several more spots... i would definitely not take the darksuit that late>_>

kirbymastah

2012-12-27 10:49:05 pm

darksuit in 100% is not that bad <_< especially if you've been running mp2 any% for a while. And at least with the current 100% route, you'd fight PB guardian with light suit

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-28 07:22:50 am

2012-12-28 07:19:33 am

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Quote from kirbymastah:

darksuit in 100% is not that bad especially if you've been running mp2 any% for a while. And at least with the current 100% route, you'd fight PB guardian with light suit

Think about it you could also skip the e tank in the pirate base which saves about another 15 seconds so you only save a rediculous amount of 25.... Ive seen your stream you got some trouble with energy you should really really take it. >_> You dont have dark suit for more than one hour in a run i guess the dark suit skip before torvus is annoying too, i doubt that youre not loosing those 25 seconds later on anyways, refilling your energy for quadraxis you could enter that fight way faster, for example.

Pawbdr

2012-12-28 12:24:45 pm

I don't get it, are u talking about skipping the dark suit til after you get the light suit? Cuz I keep hearing skip this and that on a 100% topic and I'm lost

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2012-12-28 03:04:17 pm

2012-12-28 03:03:46 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

no, you just take dark suit very late in miles's route and normally you take it at the beginning of the game; after light beam.