Possible chance of 7% run.

2005-09-11 09:52:41 pm

...

How are you missing that Kraid first (without Power Grip) is completely possible as far as people here are concerned?

http://www.metroid2002.com/0/low_percent_kraid_1.php

Maur

2005-09-11 10:02:50 pm

Sparking into it has already been tried. It doesn't work.

BioSpark

2005-09-11 10:17:53 pm

Can anything break it?

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-11 10:23:54 pm

Quote from Liam:

Quote from Razorflame:

c. Find a way to get a Power Bomb Tank Early.

Well the only Power Bomb Tank that is theoretically gettable is the one in Norfair. But then again, it's impossible to survive in a low % run...

which tank would that be? I'm sure that they probably locked it up good and tight...

Quote from The Dark Knight:

Can anything break it?

parasites, of which there are none.

Chanoire

2005-09-11 10:53:52 pm

He presumably means the one in lots of lava, to the far left of Norfair. Not only has it been impossible to get it prior to getting the Fully Powered Suit due to lack of energy, it too would require getting past the plant thing to get at.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-11 11:38:58 pm

Quote from Chanoire:

He presumably means the one in lots of lava, to the far left of Norfair. Not only has it been impossible to get it prior to getting the Fully Powered Suit due to lack of energy, it too would require getting past the plant thing to get at.

but getting the power grip to get rid of the plant, then grabbing the power bomb would mean skipping the unknowns, right?

How much energy would it take at the very least to grab? Is there anything stopping it besides the lava?

carlmmii

2005-09-12 02:28:11 am

The only theoretically possible way I'd see to be able to even reach that power bomb without the gravity suit would be by a shinespark, which seems very unlikely. Bombs are useless in lava, as well as wall jumping due to the design.

Not to mention the extra 1-2 energy tanks that would be required. So, you're back to 9%.

XtraX

2005-09-12 12:14:01 pm

You can't Speed Boost/save Shinesparks in Lava. -> impossible.

Someone should find a Blue suit in MZM;) You will need quite some E-Tanks for the Pb if it would be grabable. I know that it takes 2 E-Tanks(4 on Hard) to just get the Missile Tank with Varia Suit and I'm sure you can't do that any faster. Getting the Pb would need around 4 E-Tanks I think.

As for skippable Items, Gravity suit,Varia suit,Space Jump and Ice Beam could be skipped. Skipping Varia would require even more E-Tanks though. So getting the lava Pb early won't give us a lower percent. But it would be fun to do so imo;) NBMB would be more interesting, which is better than nothing. any% runs could skip Kraid and Ridley and the suitless sequence and half of the game and 100% runs would have a faster route after getting the fully powered suit. (You couldn't skip the suitless sequence in 100% runs though, because of these stupid Tourian items)

carlmmii

2005-09-12 01:26:48 pm

hm... has anyone tried back-dooring tourian w/o beating kraid/ridley?

Liam

2005-09-12 02:00:37 pm

Quote from carlmmii:

hm... has anyone tried back-dooring tourian w/o beating kraid/ridley?

It's a dead end. And you can't get any items there, since they don't exist in the explody room state.

Light of Day

2005-09-12 03:51:04 pm

First things first, not only have I not played Zero Mission in a looong time, but I'll be talking about backdooring Tourian which is something I've never done before. Apologies in advance if I'm talking out of my ass here.

If my understanding of how ZM works is correct, backdooring Tourian shouldn't require getting all the way to Mother Brain to work. All you would need to do is get far enough back that you get to a room in the explody state, then turn around and do the escape sequence as normal. You should be able to skip Tourian (and hence the ice beam) entirely this way. However, how do you backdoor Tourian anyway? Is it even possible without a shark or Codebreaker? I've never done it before, so I wouldn't know, but I'd imagine you need the speed booster for it? That would require beating Kraid anyway. You may also need a super missile in order to get far enough back to trigger the explody state (once again, I've never done it before so I wouldn't know). With the speed booster you could get the super missile tank in Crateria, though.

If this does work how I think it does, you'll be able to skip Power Grip, Ice Beam and Gravity Suit, but not Plasma Beam as it's required for the black Pirates, nor Varia as you automatically get it when you recieve the fully powered suit. In return, you'll have to pick up Speed Booster and possibly a Super Missile tank. That's a drop of 1%, 2 if you don't need the super missile. HOWEVER, I remember some lava you have to cross through shortly after obtaining the fully powered suit. Is it possible to get through this without Gravity and no energy tanks?

Even if you have to more than make up the percentage on energy tanks to make this work, being able to skip Ridley, Tourian and most of Norfair would still make this worth it for speed, right?

First things first, not only have I not played Zero Mission in a looong time, but I'll be talking about backdooring Tourian which is something I've never done before. Apologies in advance if I'm talking out of my ass here.

If my understanding of how ZM works is correct, backdooring Tourian shouldn't require getting all the way to Mother Brain to work. All you would need to do is get far enough back that you get to a room in the explody state, then turn around and do the escape sequence as normal. You should be able to skip Tourian (and hence the ice beam) entirely this way. However, how do you backdoor Tourian anyway? Is it even possible without a shark or Codebreaker? I've never done it before, so I wouldn't know, but I'd imagine you need the speed booster for it? That would require beating Kraid anyway. You may also need a super missile in order to get far enough back to trigger the explody state (once again, I've never done it before so I wouldn't know). With the speed booster you could get the super missile tank in Crateria, though.

If this does work how I think it does, you'll be able to skip Power Grip, Ice Beam and Gravity Suit, but not Plasma Beam as it's required for the black Pirates, nor Varia as you automatically get it when you recieve the fully powered suit. In return, you'll have to pick up Speed Booster and possibly a Super Missile tank. That's a drop of 1%, 2 if you don't need the super missile. HOWEVER, I remember some lava you have to cross through shortly after obtaining the fully powered suit. Is it possible to get through this without Gravity and no energy tanks?

Even if you have to more than make up the percentage on energy tanks to make this work, being able to skip Ridley, Tourian and most of Norfair would still make this worth it for speed, right?

spineshark

2005-09-12 05:22:36 pm

in the name of justice!

This is something I would say I know even less about, but I can't think of any way you'd build up speed to go back through that way. If you could take the Brinstar launcher...but then of course you need PB's.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-12 05:38:07 pm

@LoD:

that is all true, supposing that:

the game doesnt automatically give you power grip and ice beam and grav suit when you reach the ghost

the lava after the grav suit is real lava, and not that fake kind, made to look real.

Liam

2005-09-12 06:17:34 pm

Quote from Spine Shark:

If you could take the Brinstar launcher...but then of course you need PB's.

If you take that way, you can't get into Tourian, cause the escape shaft is still in explody state, while Crateria isn't, so the Elevator leading to the destroyed Tourian isn't working. And the ship is gone, until you enter from a door, that leads to the old state of the ship room.

In a sense the rooms are completely exchanged after the explosion. You can tell, if you shoot the green door while escaping and coming back later. It's still green, cause it's not the same door you've shot earlier.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-13 09:23:00 am

You can't get the power bombs, no matter how many energy tanks, if you dont have the gravity suit, because of some stupid overhang that they put in to stop you from being able to. if the overhang wasnt there, you could underwater (well, i guess undermagma) walljump to the top, but the overhang stops any attempt.

so either:

find another power bomb tank to grab
find a way to gain height underwater
get a spark to the room to spark upwards
gameshark space jump
gameshark gravity suit.

Liam

2005-09-13 09:58:33 am

- 6 power bomb tanks are in Chozodia... impossible
- 1 is below Mother Brain... impossible
- 1 is in the ship room... impossible to get since it's non-existent as long as the ship is there and besides guarded by pb blocks.

That's it.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-13 05:15:34 pm

@carlmii: You CAN gain height with walljumps if you do it quick enough underwater, but not much at all. You could scale the entire wall on the left of the power bomb tank room in norfair if the ledge wasnt there. its just that you dont gain enough height to get you anywhere fast.

Skreemaster

2005-09-14 10:07:47 am

I'll be back. Maybe...

Might I refer you back to this topic for What Happens If You Backdoor Stuff.

And about the post-FullyPoweredSuit lava... I think I remember its having mysterious properties, even if these don't extend to non-burny-ness.

carlmmii

2005-09-14 01:02:39 pm

Quote from Lazylen:

@carlmii: You CAN gain height with walljumps if you do it quick enough underwater, but not much at all. You could scale the entire wall on the left of the power bomb tank room in norfair if the ledge wasnt there. its just that you dont gain enough height to get you anywhere fast.

Never said there was a problem wall jumping in water/lava, just that it wasn't going to work due to the room's design, with the ledges there.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2005-09-14 09:22:12 pm

kk. i heard you wrong then. :P

Supuh

2005-09-16 08:40:23 pm

man, i hate it when game developers actually use their brains for evil. Stupid anti sequence breakers

darkmagic

2005-09-18 12:13:18 am

Shine Sparking to it is impossible because the part of the room that the PB tank is in is guarded by three Missile blocks which would take to long.

carlmmii

2005-09-18 09:48:49 am

The real question is whether it's possible on PAL.

Raccoon Sam

2005-10-01 05:00:39 am

Very good point Carmlii.
Since PAL Can make the Missile-save thingy, It would take less time and skill.
But the only problem is the god dang lava. As far as I know, you can't survive the heat at any way at all.. Except if you figure out a super sequence break which would allow:
-The Lava to disappear
-Underwater Bomb jumping
-Underwater Shinesparking
-A very high jump
And none of them is possible to execute, so I'll just stay with the "Impossible"

LifeMega

2005-10-01 05:55:42 pm

I started a new game and gave myself misiles, SMs, and PBs. Using only those and the morph ball and bombs I'll see what wierdness I can uncover. This is with AR on a cart.

The Brinstar to Crateria Cannon
Using this and going to the ship loads the shipless room. Going into the room to the right and returning loads the ship room.
Going to Tourian is useless as the elevator doesn't work, so apparently you can't backdoor Tourian thet way.

Kraid no Power Grip
I don't know what plant thing you guys were talking about, but I easily killed Kraid and left without the speed booster or power grip. I've done this sans cheats before. I killed Kraid before ever setting foot in Norfair.

The Norfair Plant
There's no way around this. NOTHING will destroy it but parasites. The only other way into Norfair is through Kraid, and that requires Screw Attack, so if there is no way to skip Tourian and Ridley must be killed, Power Grip is unavoidable.

The Power Grip Area
If you backdoor the room before the Power Grip, the false floor is gone and the bird stature is there, but the platforms aren't

Backdoor Chozodia
The bottom entrance is pointless, since you can't break the glass tube from outside. The pre-full suit music after a pirate sees you carries over to all of the other areas. The pirate carring the Power Bombs isn't real, and can't be killed. The door leading to the lava room doesn't work (you can't enter the lava room) before the full suit. Same with the door leading to the water room, and the passage leading to the missile in the same shaft. In the chozo fight, you can't hurt yourself, and missiles don't work. I auto-got the Varia and turned purple, even though I had no G-suit. The G-suit wasn't listed in my items. The lava is fake. I had no G-suit, and I took no damage and could move freely. The tube wouldn't break from the inside either. Black Pirates are invincible without the Plasma.

So far, here are the apparent reasons for each of the 9 items:

Morph Ball: duh
Bombs: duh
Power Grip: Norfair access, as Ridley must be killed.
Missile: doors
Varia: Auto-get with full suit
Ice Beam: Killing Metroids, as Tourian seemingly can't be avoided.
Plasma: Need to get Power Grip, kill Black Pirates.
Space Jump: Need to get to Kraid.
Gravity Suit: Need to fight Ridley.

I don't think below 9 is possible.

I started a new game and gave myself misiles, SMs, and PBs. Using only those and the morph ball and bombs I'll see what wierdness I can uncover. This is with AR on a cart.

The Brinstar to Crateria Cannon
Using this and going to the ship loads the shipless room. Going into the room to the right and returning loads the ship room.
Going to Tourian is useless as the elevator doesn't work, so apparently you can't backdoor Tourian thet way.

Kraid no Power Grip
I don't know what plant thing you guys were talking about, but I easily killed Kraid and left without the speed booster or power grip. I've done this sans cheats before. I killed Kraid before ever setting foot in Norfair.

The Norfair Plant
There's no way around this. NOTHING will destroy it but parasites. The only other way into Norfair is through Kraid, and that requires Screw Attack, so if there is no way to skip Tourian and Ridley must be killed, Power Grip is unavoidable.

The Power Grip Area
If you backdoor the room before the Power Grip, the false floor is gone and the bird stature is there, but the platforms aren't

Backdoor Chozodia
The bottom entrance is pointless, since you can't break the glass tube from outside. The pre-full suit music after a pirate sees you carries over to all of the other areas. The pirate carring the Power Bombs isn't real, and can't be killed. The door leading to the lava room doesn't work (you can't enter the lava room) before the full suit. Same with the door leading to the water room, and the passage leading to the missile in the same shaft. In the chozo fight, you can't hurt yourself, and missiles don't work. I auto-got the Varia and turned purple, even though I had no G-suit. The G-suit wasn't listed in my items. The lava is fake. I had no G-suit, and I took no damage and could move freely. The tube wouldn't break from the inside either. Black Pirates are invincible without the Plasma.

So far, here are the apparent reasons for each of the 9 items:

Morph Ball: duh
Bombs: duh
Power Grip: Norfair access, as Ridley must be killed.
Missile: doors
Varia: Auto-get with full suit
Ice Beam: Killing Metroids, as Tourian seemingly can't be avoided.
Plasma: Need to get Power Grip, kill Black Pirates.
Space Jump: Need to get to Kraid.
Gravity Suit: Need to fight Ridley.

I don't think below 9 is possible.