PAL version any% and 100% speed runs

2010-04-27 03:59:30 am

Quote from 072:

By the way, I'm not sure that shinesparking through the Red Brinstar rooms before going to Maridia is any faster than the usual method... it seems like a lot of time is lost charging the shinespark and recovering from it. Has anyone actually compared times for this (from the time you're finished refilling to when you lay a PB in the glass tube)?

As soon as i get home i'll try to compare the times to see if it's worth or not to use the shinespark.

Giganotabehemoth87

Edit history:

Giganotabehemoth87: 2010-04-27 04:42:55 am

2010-04-27 04:39:46 am

professional chin scratcher

Yea I agree. Even if you do the better version of it in my smv your probabaly only saving around a second and your missing out on picking up a super missle from the cacti. Plus the whole thing is just unesassariliy hard.

Reeve

Edit history:

Reeve: 2010-04-27 04:50:49 am

Reeve: 2010-04-27 04:48:51 am

2010-04-27 04:48:29 am

And remember that you're on your way to Draygon and you'll need health to:

1. Shinespark Diagonally to the top right of the Great room with graple blocks.
2. Shinespark the great mocktroids room before Draygon.
3. Shinespark Draygon to death and get the blue suit.
4. Shinespark back the Great Mocktroids room.

So it will be an orgy of Shinesparks and you'll need all energy you can save.

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 04:51:11 am

professional chin scratcher

Yep and that's a lot of shinesparks for an any% particularly. The shinesparks for pre maridia cost around 60 to 80 health !. Let's abandon this trick then LOL

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 04:55:29 am

professional chin scratcher

I heard that the blue suit doesn't actually save a tremendous amount of time. Just as well because I don't always manage to get one !

Quietus

2010-04-27 06:00:22 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

In a TAS, it makes a difference, but in a normal run, the fact that you do not have optimal movement while messing around getting out of Draygon's room, and then the eye-door room, and then up to the top of the large room, means that you probably lose as much time as you'd save. Without it, you can jump on top of the first pillar in the room, and then get a running start on your space jumps, and just jump across the room. It might save you a second if you get very accurate on your jumps exiting the eye-door room. You need to account for the fact that all the time you're holding the blue suit, you're restricted in movement speed, so for (roughly) every three to four seconds you're moving, you're losing one. You might be better off just using it to escape Draygon's room, so you can run faster sooner.

Failing that, I've got a couple more options that you could try, both for a 100% run. Yellow denotes a way of getting to the top of the room quicker, so you can start with collecting the Missiles with speed; the green denotes reaching the top (still with the blue suit), getting the Missiles, and then sparking into the next room. Obviously, you'd have to open the door on your way up the platforms. This saves time jumping back across the gaps in this room.

In a TAS, it makes a difference, but in a normal run, the fact that you do not have optimal movement while messing around getting out of Draygon's room, and then the eye-door room, and then up to the top of the large room, means that you probably lose as much time as you'd save.  Without it, you can jump on top of the first pillar in the room, and then get a running start on your space jumps, and just jump across the room.  It might save you a second if you get very accurate on your jumps exiting the eye-door room.  You need to account for the fact that all the time you're holding the blue suit, you're restricted in movement speed, so for (roughly) every three to four seconds you're moving, you're losing one.  You might be better off just using it to escape Draygon's room, so you can run faster sooner.

Failing that, I've got a couple more options that you could try, both for a 100% run.  Yellow denotes a way of getting to the top of the room quicker, so you can start with collecting the Missiles with speed; the green denotes reaching the top (still with the blue suit), getting the Missiles, and then sparking into the next room.  Obviously, you'd have to open the door on your way up the platforms.  This saves time jumping back across the gaps in this room.

attachment:

Draygon Exit.png

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 06:25:45 am

professional chin scratcher

That's an interesting set of ideas there. I havnt' thought of those options before. I would opt for green. Because once you've exited draygons lair you have space jump. And in the water you can space jump fast and you could probably get up there the same speed as shinespark roughly as the yellow option. How about though using the green option but shinesparking to the missles ? It's an idea but could end up being slightly slower than the standard green option.

However though I think now I would pick up those missles before fighting draygon so that I can give proper use to the blue suit for shinesparking back across the large room. That's if I get the damn thing.

I think it's very hard to work out what would be best here. My brain is hurting, It's probabaly because there's hardly anything in them between all options. Everytime I come to a conclusion I keep going, ''oh wait a minute, but that would be quicker coz you've got this or that therefore this little section would be quicker on that option''

I conclude it's all just a matter of preferance which way you use it.

There would of course be only one way to find out, testing. But I can't be bothered LOL

That's an interesting set of ideas there. I havnt' thought of those options before. I would opt for green. Because once you've exited draygons lair you have space jump. And in the water you can space jump fast and you could probably get up there the same speed as shinespark roughly as the yellow option. How about though using the green option but shinesparking to the missles ? It's an idea but could end up being slightly slower than the standard green option.

However though I think now I would pick up those missles before fighting draygon so that I can give proper use to the blue suit for shinesparking back across the large room. That's if I get the damn thing.

I think it's very hard to work out what would be best here. My brain is hurting, It's probabaly because there's hardly anything in them between all options. Everytime I come to a conclusion I keep going, ''oh wait a minute, but that would be quicker coz you've got this or that therefore this little section would be quicker on that option''

I conclude it's all just a matter of preferance which way you use it.

There would of course be only one way to find out, testing. But I can't be bothered LOL

Reeve

2010-04-27 07:22:04 am

I think the blue suit it's worth to get if you go to the missiles before fighting draygon and if you get Draygon killed in two rounds. You can use the plataform before openning the green door on mocktroids room to reach a good speed, so you can jump and land next to the missile. I'll try to compare the times to see what is better.

Reeve

Edit history:

Reeve: 2010-04-27 08:11:32 am

Reeve: 2010-04-27 08:11:09 am

Reeve: 2010-04-27 08:10:45 am

Reeve: 2010-04-27 08:09:12 am

Reeve: 2010-04-27 08:07:58 am

2010-04-27 08:05:38 am

Here is the result:

I started comparing the times after Draygon's death, so i could compare with more precision.
In the end the blue suit option proved to be faster only 148 frames (2 seconds and 28 frames???), but if you think about it, if you are not trying to get the blue suit, so you can kill Draygon faster by shooting supers on him. And gain the two seconds back. The problem here is if you don't kill him with only shinesparks, so you'll loose all your supers and will have to stop later and loose time refilling your ammo. In the end, i think it's worth getting the blue suit, but as it's a little hard and the lost by not getting it is not that much, i would go for not getting it on a console run. And there is another option... let's suppose i'm doing an any% segmented run, so i'll have to try killing Botwoon in 1 round and to shinespark the Mocktroids room on the way to Draygon. If i manage to pull off this two tricks, and i'm not that consistent in both, so i'd kill Draygon first Shinesparking into him and so shooting him with all my ammo. But if i'm consistent in 1 round Botwoon and the mocktroids room shinespark, i would try to get the blue suit as well.

Here is the result:

I started comparing the times after Draygon's death, so i could compare with more precision.
In the end the blue suit option proved to be faster only 148 frames (2 seconds and 28 frames???), but if you think about it, if you are not trying to get the blue suit, so you can kill Draygon faster by shooting supers on him. And gain the two seconds back. The problem here is if you don't kill him with only shinesparks, so you'll loose all your supers and will have to stop later and loose time refilling your ammo. In the end, i think it's worth getting the blue suit, but as it's a little hard and the lost by not getting it is not that much, i would go for not getting it on a console run. And there is another option... let's suppose i'm doing an any% segmented run, so i'll have to try killing Botwoon in 1 round and to shinespark the Mocktroids room on the way to Draygon. If i manage to pull off this two tricks, and i'm not that consistent in both, so i'd kill Draygon first Shinesparking into him and so shooting him with all my ammo. But if i'm consistent in 1 round Botwoon and the mocktroids room shinespark, i would try to get the blue suit as well.

Quietus

2010-04-27 08:12:23 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

You're definitely better off getting them on the way in, as you have more speed, even without Space Jump.

Reeve

2010-04-27 08:14:48 am

Yeah, forgot to say that after the jump you have to do a bounce ball for a better result. As i did in my savestate run.

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 09:01:34 am

professional chin scratcher

I don't think you really lose out that much by not having many supers after draygons death. I'm assuming you want lots left to deal with ridley ?. I can understand, you killed him pretty quickly with just supers in your TAS 100%. But it's very unlikely you'd ever have as much as you did in your TAS in a console run.

I think the main goal would be to dispatch draygon as quickly as possible by any means. Draining most of your supers or health (by shinesparking).

I like to mix and match. Start round 1 off with a shot followed by a shinespark and hope round 2 is his gunk firing round, wherebye he can be killed on that round by missles and supers. Also, as blue suit isn't guarenteed it's almost pointless exdending the fight a little bit just to get it, so that you can save 2 seconds. I know he can be killed in 2 rounds by 3 shinesparks but it's very difficult. Then again, you would be saving more than 2 seconds because by a shineapark death you would have saved many supers for the fight against ridley to make that fight quicker as well.

Maybe then its worth shinesparking draygon to death for the reason that you want to save supers. Instead of it being the reason that you want to get blue suit. As blue suits gains arn't so much.

I don't think you really lose out that much by not having many supers after draygons death. I'm assuming you want lots left to deal with ridley ?. I can understand, you killed him pretty quickly with just supers in your TAS 100%. But it's very unlikely you'd ever have as much as you did in your TAS in a console run.

I think the main goal would be to dispatch draygon as quickly as possible by any means. Draining most of your supers or health (by shinesparking).

I like to mix and match. Start round 1 off with a shot followed by a shinespark and hope round 2 is his gunk firing round, wherebye he can be killed on that round by missles and supers. Also, as blue suit isn't guarenteed it's almost pointless exdending the fight a little bit just to get it, so that you can save 2 seconds. I know he can be killed in 2 rounds by 3 shinesparks but it's very difficult. Then again, you would be saving more than 2 seconds because by a shineapark death you would have saved many supers for the fight against ridley to make that fight quicker as well.

Maybe then its worth shinesparking draygon to death for the reason that you want to save supers. Instead of it being the reason that you want to get blue suit. As blue suits gains arn't so much.

072

2010-04-27 09:18:13 am

coral to complement blue

Supers aren't really a concern because you can refill them all on cacti on the way to plasma beam with no loss in time. Health, however, is going be an issue; at least for any%.

Giganotabehemoth87

Edit history:

Giganotabehemoth87: 2010-04-27 09:27:44 am

2010-04-27 09:25:12 am

professional chin scratcher

True, but I think reeve had something like 30 + supers to kill ridley as quickly as he did. theres not enough cacti to replenish as much as that.

Lets say that you end draygon battle with 5 supers (about average for me). Your gonna have to find 25 somewhere before ridley. Some of those cacti are postioned slightly out the way costing a few seconds each. Even golden torizo doesn't drop loads. At least he doesnt with me. When you fighting him your concertrating on getting double hits. Not collecting supplies from his globules. When that fight is over you can shoot a few globules scattered next to you on the floor for about 5 supers at best ! When I get to ridley on a 100% run, I on average have about 12 maybe 13 supers.

I think actually now, that it's worthwhile us trying our best to get a strategy down to kill draygon almost purely on shinesparks so that supers and indeed time are no longer a concern

072

2010-04-27 09:34:08 am

coral to complement blue

I thought charged plasma shots were about equally effective against Ridley...

Weird that you only have 12-13 Supers on Ridley for 100%... I'm sure I always have a full 15 in any%. This is another problem with bluesuit, since you can't shinespark to collect Draygon's drops.

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 09:41:58 am

professional chin scratcher

For me on an any% I think I have about 7 or 8. I use 5 quick supers followed by plasma charged shots.

plasma charged shots are good but 30 fast supers are definately quicker. Lately I've been messing around killing the bosses with supers and ridley goes down so fast when you use purely supers. I would say knocking on 10 seconds quicker than if you use charged shots.

If you get blue suit and you want to collect his supplies quickly you can get a damage boost off the bottom right hand electric thingy and then proceed into the space jump room. But even so I'm dubious about the gains of the blue suit

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 10:18:43 am

professional chin scratcher

well I just did a little test

I drained all my supers and then took on draygon. Finished the fight and he gave me 2 supers (very rare to give me as little as that but he did). I carried on the normal 100% route killing a few more cacti than usual which wasted more time than needed. But only because draygon gave me so little. In which case I wouldn't have done that.

I got to lower norfair and took on golden torizo, making sure to shoot 2 set of all his globules. I finished the fight with an astonishing 23 supers !

Proceeded onward to the kung fu pirates and they gave me a total of 4 supers, so in total I had 27 to take on ridley. Which is awesome. So providing one is a good player and can shoot golden torizos globules quickly and collect supers without wasting hardly any time, this seems to be the key whether or not you have little amount of supers, or plenty.

Bare in mind that draygon gave me sod all (the stingy prawn) I could have maybe had over 30. Which isn't a too difficult number to get hold of compared to what I originally thought.

So, with this all in mind I think it's safe to say that draygon should be dispatched as quickly as possible, as collecting 25 + supers isn't too much hassle at all afterward !

well I just did a little test

I drained all my supers and then took on draygon. Finished the fight and he gave me 2 supers (very rare to give me as little as that but he did). I carried on the normal 100% route killing a few more cacti than usual which wasted more time than needed. But only because draygon gave me so little. In which case I wouldn't have done that.

I got to lower norfair and took on golden torizo, making sure to shoot 2 set of all his globules. I finished the fight with an astonishing 23 supers !

Proceeded onward to the kung fu pirates and they gave me a total of 4 supers, so in total I had 27 to take on ridley. Which is awesome. So providing one is a good player and can shoot golden torizos globules quickly and collect supers without wasting hardly any time, this seems to be the key whether or not you have little amount of supers, or plenty.

Bare in mind that draygon gave me sod all (the stingy prawn) I could have maybe had over 30. Which isn't a too difficult number to get hold of compared to what I originally thought.

So, with this all in mind I think it's safe to say that draygon should be dispatched as quickly as possible, as collecting 25 + supers isn't too much hassle at all afterward !

Reeve

Edit history:

Reeve: 2010-04-27 10:46:43 am

2010-04-27 10:45:47 am

So it's decided that the blue suit it's kinda worthless on a console run, both any% and 100%.
In an any% using Hotarubi's route, i wonder if it's worth or not to take the first supers on Maridia. Hotarubi took them and yet stopped to refill on the sand after botwoon. I think if you get them and get Botwoon's drops, you can continue on the run without stopping on that sand. If you're out of ammo and health, you can stop on Norfair where there's a bubble room with just Fishes (?) going out of the ground. You can stop and refill there.

Quietus

Edit history:

Quietus: 2010-04-27 10:48:33 am

2010-04-27 10:47:29 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Don't forget that you can (very) temporarily stop just inside the door after the Screw Attack, and kill the flying things, as they drop Supers (I think) 100% of the time, unless you're full. You can get four or five almost immediately.

Giganotabehemoth87

Edit history:

Giganotabehemoth87: 2010-04-27 10:59:00 am

Giganotabehemoth87: 2010-04-27 10:57:05 am

Giganotabehemoth87: 2010-04-27 10:56:44 am

2010-04-27 10:49:41 am

professional chin scratcher

Yep you could get couple of supers off them flying things after screw attack

Also I forgot to say there's two super expansions after draygons death. So that's a guarenteed 10 !

personally reeve I don't think you need those supers at the begining of maridia on any%

Yep and because of having so little total of supers, getting that 10 shouldn't be problem before ridley. I think my any% run I had 8

Reeve

Edit history:

Reeve: 2010-04-27 10:57:55 am

2010-04-27 10:57:18 am

Also, there's the possibility of skipping this Supers on Maridia for an any%. With the Charged Beam+Shinesprk+the rest of your ammo, i think it's enough to kill Draygon. So you just have to refill 10 Supers on your way to Ridley. You'll have just 9 Super to shoot on Ridley, so we have: 9 x 600 = 5400 damage. The remaining health will be 12600/900 = 14 Charged Plasma+Ice+Wave beam exacly.

lxx4xNx6xxl

Edit history:

lxx4xNx6xxl: 2010-04-27 11:02:55 am

lxx4xNx6xxl: 2010-04-27 11:00:24 am

2010-04-27 10:59:27 am

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Well for a Segmented Run I say Blue Suit him/her but, for a Single Segment I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get the Blue Suit. BTW after hours of practice today I can now consistently 2 to 3 Round Draygon for the Blue Suit. Its actually not as hard as you may think. I'm definitely gonna do it in my run.

Super Missile conservation shouldn't be a problem in a 100% Run. Also in an Any% Run you should definitely pod collect before Draygon.

Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-27 11:00:55 am

professional chin scratcher

That's really good. As your saving a bit of time by using the blue suit at the top, and now we know we can replenish loads of supers for a quicker ridley battle too

Reeve

2010-04-27 11:01:15 am

If your option is getting that supers so we have: 14 x 600 = 8400 damage. So 9600/900 = 11 more Charged Plasma+Ice+Wave beam.

Reeve

Edit history:

Reeve: 2010-04-27 11:04:57 am

2010-04-27 11:03:24 am

Cool man, congrats on that. As for what i mentioned, i think charging 3 Plasma Beam is faster than going to the first supers on the Maridia and back to the run. So, unless i'm missing something that really needs that supers, i'll cut them off the any% run! hehehe... My opinion.