nomenclature ii [locked]

2005-12-18 09:32:21 pm

Beware: off duty ninja

well there are some sites that are from japan I think, but they're written in japanese. . . . .unless we're talking about english ones, then bisqwit's site is the only one that I know of

Bisqwit

2005-12-19 06:40:47 am

Quote from JaggerG:

I've always wondered whether tool assisted runs and lip-syncing "performers" were on the same level. They didn't really perform the run.

That's a good analogy, assuming that the background music was still made by the same performers but mixed from selected pieces of their performance in a studio. (*)

I consider it a better analogy to compare regular speedrunning to theatre and tool-assisted speedrunning to action movies.
Tool-assisted speedruns are developed in all peace with planning and retaking shots until they are exactly what wanted. Nobody is going to see the bloopers.
But there is no undo in a theatre performance. It must all go right in one shot, and one can never train enough.

In my opinion, the possibility of bloopers in realtime speedruns is one of the reasons that makes them exciting. Tool-assisted runs have to jump a quite high barrier, by different means of performances, to reach the same level of excitement. (On my site, not many of the published movies do.)

*) Talking about music, I consider Diva Plavalaguna's "techno-opera" song in Fifth Element the most memorable tool-assisted song.

[quote="JaggerG"]I've always wondered whether tool assisted runs and lip-syncing "performers" were on the same level. They didn't really perform the run.[/quote]
That's a good analogy, assuming that the background music was still made by the same performers but mixed from selected pieces of their performance in a studio. (*)

I consider it a better analogy to compare regular speedrunning to theatre and tool-assisted speedrunning to action movies.
Tool-assisted speedruns are developed in all peace with planning and retaking shots until they are exactly what wanted. Nobody is going to see the bloopers.
But there is no undo in a theatre performance. It must all go right in one shot, and one can never train enough.

In my opinion, the possibility of bloopers in realtime speedruns is one of the reasons that makes them exciting. Tool-assisted runs have to jump a quite high barrier, by different means of performances, to reach the same level of excitement. (On my site, not many of the published movies do.)

*) Talking about music, I consider Diva Plavalaguna's [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Element#Music]"techno-opera" song[/url] in Fifth Element the most memorable tool-assisted song.

StarmanHaxor

2005-12-19 04:24:48 pm

Quote from Bisqwit:

Quote from JaggerG:

I've always wondered whether tool assisted runs and lip-syncing "performers" were on the same level. They didn't really perform the run.

That's a good analogy, assuming that the background music was still made by the same performers but mixed from selected pieces of their performance in a studio. (*)

I consider it a better analogy to compare regular speedrunning to theatre and tool-assisted speedrunning to action movies.
Tool-assisted speedruns are developed in all peace with planning and retaking shots until they are exactly what wanted. Nobody is going to see the bloopers.
But there is no undo in a theatre performance. It must all go right in one shot, and one can never train enough.

In my opinion, the possibility of bloopers in realtime speedruns is one of the reasons that makes them exciting. Tool-assisted runs have to jump a quite high barrier, by different means of performances, to reach the same level of excitement. (On my site, not many of the published movies do.)

*) Talking about music, I consider Diva Plavalaguna's "techno-opera" song in Fifth Element the most memorable tool-assisted song.

That analogy isnt completely correct. While in theater you have one shot, in Speed runs you have a chance to re-do a segment.

[quote="Bisqwit"][quote="JaggerG"]I've always wondered whether tool assisted runs and lip-syncing "performers" were on the same level. They didn't really perform the run.[/quote]
That's a good analogy, assuming that the background music was still made by the same performers but mixed from selected pieces of their performance in a studio. (*)

I consider it a better analogy to compare regular speedrunning to theatre and tool-assisted speedrunning to action movies.
Tool-assisted speedruns are developed in all peace with planning and retaking shots until they are exactly what wanted. Nobody is going to see the bloopers.
But there is no undo in a theatre performance. It must all go right in one shot, and one can never train enough.

In my opinion, the possibility of bloopers in realtime speedruns is one of the reasons that makes them exciting. Tool-assisted runs have to jump a quite high barrier, by different means of performances, to reach the same level of excitement. (On my site, not many of the published movies do.)

*) Talking about music, I consider Diva Plavalaguna's [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Element#Music]"techno-opera" song[/url] in Fifth Element the most memorable tool-assisted song.[/quote]

That analogy isnt completely correct. While in theater you have one shot, in Speed runs you have a chance to re-do a segment.

Chanoire

2005-12-19 04:33:32 pm

Certainly better than implying that conductors don't really work or perform live. ;)

Red Scarlet

2005-12-19 04:46:37 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Maybe Bisqwit was talking of single-segment.

13M13

2005-12-19 08:27:31 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Chanoire:

Certainly better than implying that conductors don't really work or perform live.

Yeah, I didn't get that either.

I'd adjust Bisquit's analogy as such:
- Single-segment console speedrunning is like theatre.
- Segmented console speedrunning is like film.
- Emulator speedrunning is like animation.

That seems understandable to me.

Anyhow...does this mean that "cyborg" has become the official M2K2 term for emulator speedruns?

Chanoire

2005-12-19 09:07:20 pm

To clarify, I was referring to Jagger's post rather than Bisqwit's. I suppose I started it with my post in the other thread, but it wasn't intended as a real parallel, just a basis for examining a related concept (that of different types of effort/skill). The type of knowledge an orchestra conductor needs would be analogous to knowing every detail of game physics, though, and the effort of conducting to trying to talk someone else through the game without doing the actual playing. Maybe.

Cyborg certainly does seem to be catching on around here, which I think is fine. The term used internally at m2k2 needn't be identical to the term used at, say, archive.org for describing these videos.

DeathNoble

2005-12-19 09:33:29 pm

Don't think the poll/topic is closed and confirmed yet. I'm sure Nate will say something when he feels enough votes have been cast.

I still say game manipulation videos, ftw. However, I can see where that would make it sound like someone is actually hacking the game to make certain features.

But there was someone here earlier (Forgive me, I can't remember who) that made a good argument for the term cyborg. When we use it, a new member will automatically be like "WTF, what's a cyborg run?!?!" and then we'll be there to inform him/her that cyborg is the term we use for slowdown/savestating a run. That way, the start off with the term cyborg and that's what they become accustomed to. You see, I came onto this board right around the time when people were using the term that won't be used here anymore. Then when I did a run and I used slowdown/savestate feature, I wold say "I finished this run but I (Insert non-allowavle term here)" therefore, I started with that term and grew up with it, if you may. That's definetly a thing we should avoid.

If we're truly not going to use that term anymore, however, I thin someone should go through the entire forum, thread by thread, and replace that term with the term that wins the poll here. We don't want anybody back-reading and not realizing that's an unacceptable term.

Don't think the poll/topic is closed and confirmed yet.  I'm sure Nate will say something when he feels enough votes have been cast.

I still say game manipulation videos, ftw.  However, I can see where that would make it sound like someone is actually hacking the game to make certain features.

But there was someone here earlier (Forgive me, I can't remember who) that made a good argument for the term cyborg.  When we use it, a new member will automatically be like "WTF, what's a cyborg run?!?!" and then we'll be there to inform him/her that cyborg is the term we use for slowdown/savestating a run.  That way, the start off with the term cyborg and that's what they become accustomed to.  You see, I came onto this board right around the time when people were using the term that won't be used here anymore.  Then when I did a run and I used slowdown/savestate feature, I wold say "I finished this run but I (Insert non-allowavle term here)" therefore, I started with that term and grew up with it, if you may.  That's definetly a thing we should avoid.

If we're truly not going to use that term anymore, however, I thin someone should go through the entire forum, thread by thread, and replace that term with the term that wins the poll here.  We don't want anybody back-reading and not realizing that's an unacceptable term.

Bisqwit

2005-12-20 02:42:11 am

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Maybe Bisqwit was talking of single-segment.

Indeed. I don't consider segmented speedruns pure :)

(The Nesvideos movies are arbitrarily-segmented.)

Red Scarlet

2005-12-20 03:44:38 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Well, they're just small headaches compared to one big migraine sometimes.

JaggerG

2005-12-20 05:38:54 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Okay, I guess it is wrong to bash these kinds of runs. Despite the dislike I've acquired for these kinds of vids, Bis does make me wonder why I attempt to make them sound as low as I can, and it becomes clearer each time I try that they're not as low as everyone makes them out to be (especially when the harder I try, the further from facts I get). I guess you're right, it is pretty much stage vs. screen. It is pretty silly for someone to argue about one type of thing being so much better than another completely different type.

I just think it shouldn't be called speedrunning, though. It makes people think it's the same kind of video. People will just point out mistakes in them and claim the emu'd runs were so much greater. How about directing?

By the way, I probably shouldn't have tried to demean conductors. I had the idea in my mind that they did in fact have to know a lot about pieces and such and aren't like totally worthless or anything. But I feel I have to reject the idea that the conductor "performs." They do have to conduct live and such, they just don't play the music themselves. I just think it shouldn't be called performing. How about we call it directing? :P

Okay, I guess it is wrong to bash these kinds of runs. Despite the dislike I've acquired for these kinds of vids, Bis does make me wonder why I attempt to make them sound as low as I can, and it becomes clearer each time I try that they're not as low as everyone makes them out to be (especially when the harder I try, the further from facts I get). I guess you're right, it is pretty much stage vs. screen. It is pretty silly for someone to argue about one type of thing being so much better than another completely different type.

I just think it shouldn't be called speedrunning, though. It makes people think it's the same kind of video. People will just point out mistakes in them and claim the emu'd runs were so much greater. How about directing?

By the way, I probably shouldn't have tried to demean conductors. I had the idea in my mind that they did in fact have to know a lot about pieces and such and aren't like totally worthless or anything. But I feel I have to reject the idea that the conductor "performs." They do have to conduct live and such, they just don't play the music themselves. I just think it shouldn't be called performing. How about we call it directing? :P

13M13

2005-12-20 06:59:49 am

l'appel du vide

Quote from JaggerG:

... I just think it shouldn't be called speedrunning, though. It makes people think it's the same kind of video. People will just point out mistakes in them and claim the emu'd runs were so much greater. ...

People can be stupid. The ones who understand the differences of such things are the ones you should cater too. Do you really think the opinions of those folks are overly meaningful? It's useless criticism. Listen to the ones that actually have points.

Quote from JaggerG:

... But I feel I have to reject the idea that the conductor "performs." They do have to conduct live and such, they just don't play the music themselves. I just think it shouldn't be called performing. How about we call it directing?

How about we call it conducting? You are aware that, in this case, they are synonyms, yes?

JaggerG

2005-12-20 04:11:08 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I just thought it would bring a chuckle to say the exact same thing about two different things. That last paragraph was kind of dragged out and probably pointless, but I figured I'd just throw it in there anyway.

And about the bad reviews from stupid people, I think a lot of people tend to rely more on the opinions of stupid people who've seen them both and don't know the difference than the smart people who made or hosts them and are therefore probably biased.

carlmmii

2005-12-21 05:35:12 am

game manipulation videos (a manipulater manipulates a game)
too long, and too ambiguous

slowdown-assisted videos (a person uses slowdown)
completely negates the use of save states

cyborg runs (a cyborg borgs)
er... and if the person running it legitimately actually is a cyborg? Shocked

tool-assisted videos (a taser makes a video)
best choice

technical demonstration (a person makes a tech demo)
not really. this can also apply to a legit run that uses difficult techniques for show. like ekard's 9% hard zm run.

non-legal videos/demos (a person makes a non-legal video/demo)
too vague

JaggerG

2005-12-21 06:28:57 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Ek's 9% hard one is legit?

That just sounds wrong. Try to guess which part I mean!

Gigafrost

2005-12-21 01:18:51 pm

I don't think "Cyborg Run" will be as effective against "Joe Idiot" as much as some others think it will. I see ignorant people looking at the name and assuming that it's just a bunch of teenagers trying to make their runs "look cooler" by putting "cyborg" in the name. I simply don't see the motivation for people to look for the meaning. Although it is a fairly good (albeit abstract) way to describe what we do.

I like "Tool-Assisted Speedrun" because it's descriptive and doesn't seem to be as flaunting as other suggestions. Although I suppose y'all are questioning whether or not they should be called "speedruns," it is true that we are constructing artificial speedruns and not simple demonstrations. I suppose a reasonable compromise might be "Tool-Assisted Speedrun Demonstration." Hmmm...

I dunno. I guess I'm just posting my thoughts out loud in the vague hope that somebody is inspired, but thank you for considering our feelings about the "emurape" label. :)

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-21 01:37:52 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from carlmmii:

cyborg runs (a cyborg borgs)
er... and if the person running it legitimately actually is a cyborg? Shocked

Then it's not legitimate, it would merely be describing a different kind of cyborg. Consider: A gamer exists in the world of the game through button presses and whatever other interface there is. That is the gamer's presence in that world. Now, if foreign elements of technology are introduced--savestates and slowdown--the gamer's button presses--and therefore their existence--are altered considerably. By technology. It doesn't matter whether you've got a robotic arm, eye, etc or if you simply save states. The only difference would be that in the first case, the person is a cyborg all the time, and in the latter case, the person is a cyborg only in the world of the game.

Quote from Gigafrost:

I dunno. I guess I'm just posting my thoughts out loud in the vague hope that somebody is inspired, but thank you for considering our feelings about the "emurape" label. :)

My pleasure.

[quote="carlmmii"][b]cyborg runs (a cyborg borgs)[/b]
er... and if the person running it legitimately actually [i]is[/i] a cyborg?  :shock: [/quote]

Then it's not legitimate, it would merely be describing a different kind of cyborg.  Consider:  A gamer exists in the world of the game through button presses and whatever other interface there is.  That is the gamer's presence in that world.  Now, if foreign elements of technology are introduced--savestates and slowdown--the gamer's button presses--and therefore their existence--are altered considerably.  By technology.  It doesn't matter whether you've got a robotic arm, eye, etc or if you simply save states.  The only difference would be that in the first case, the person is a cyborg all the time, and in the latter case, the person is a cyborg only in the world of the game.

[quote="Gigafrost"]I dunno. I guess I'm just posting my thoughts out loud in the vague hope that somebody is inspired, but thank you for considering our feelings about the "emurape" label. :)[/quote]

My pleasure.

Chanoire

2005-12-21 03:01:12 pm

Hey, now, I've been complaining about that label since the day I joined, approximately. ;)

Saber, I believe people with pacemakers would also be considered cyborgs. I don't know how many people with pacemakers are gamers, but I think it's fair to say that if any exist they get no advantage over people using only the ticker they were born with, and there'd be no inherent reason to call a console speedrun by such a person non-legit, as your first sentence seems to imply. Just sayin'.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-21 03:26:21 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Chanoire:

Saber, I believe people with pacemakers would also be considered cyborgs.

This is true.

Quote:

I don't know how many people with pacemakers are gamers, but I think it's fair to say that if any exist they get no advantage over people using only the ticker they were born with,

Viewed a certain way, there is the advantage that their heart will start wanting to act erratically and it won't matter. Though the chance is smaller for those who don't need pacemakers in the first place, the fact that they're sitting there, alive, playing a game console, through technology, is notable. Not relevant, however, just notable. The same could be said to be true of people who wear glasses, take daily medication, and have even ever had surgery. That gets into the pseudophilosophical realm though.

Quote:

and there'd be no inherent reason to call a console speedrun by such a person non-legit, as your first sentence seems to imply. Just sayin'.

And that's certainly true.

But I'm talking artificial limbses here. :D

[quote="Chanoire"]Saber, I believe people with pacemakers would also be considered cyborgs.  [/quote]

This is true.

[quote]I don't know how many people with pacemakers are gamers, but I think it's fair to say that if any exist they get no advantage over people using only the ticker they were born with, [/quote]

Viewed a certain way, there is the advantage that their heart will start wanting to act erratically and it won't matter.  Though the chance is smaller for those who don't need pacemakers in the first place, the fact that they're sitting there, alive, playing a game console, through technology, is notable.  Not relevant, however, just notable.  The same could be said to be true of people who wear glasses, take daily medication, and have even ever had surgery.  That gets into the pseudophilosophical realm though.

[quote]and there'd be no inherent reason to call a console speedrun by such a person non-legit, as your first sentence seems to imply.  Just sayin'.[/quote]

And that's certainly true.

But I'm talking artificial limbses here.   :D

nate

2005-12-21 04:08:47 pm

poll over; 'cyborg' is our new official term. 'tool-assisted run/video' or 'tas' will also be acceptable. the forum administration reserves the right to edit any post referring to the aforementioned videos/runs without using one of these two official terms.