nomenclature ii [locked]

2005-12-17 03:37:50 am

lol no way

I voted tech demo, I'll still call them quarks though, since that doesn't really sound all that insulting to me.

2005-12-17 05:03:22 am

l'appel du vide

What's the problem?

Any additional terms would be rather unnecessary.

I don't think saying 'emu-rape' itself is offensive; it's the attitude behind it. And how are these no longer speedruns?

arkarian

2005-12-17 05:41:36 am

red chamber dream

Quote from 13M13:

I don't think saying 'emu-rape' itself is offensive; it's the attitude behind it.

Nah, see, it's the opposite. We don't really mean anything (that) offensive by it, but some of us (including me) think that people outside m2k2 would be offended by it and possibly be put off by the site and community itself. I'm sure that some people won't mind the term, but imo, it's better safe than sorry with something like that. Especially with speedruns and cyborg runs becoming more popular, more people will be coming here to discuss them.

Quote from 13M13:

And how are these no longer speedruns?

JaggerG already explained that.

Yoshi348

2005-12-17 11:33:51 am

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from Arkarian:

Quote from 13M13:

I don't think saying 'emu-rape' itself is offensive; it's the attitude behind it.

Nah, see, it's the opposite. We don't really mean anything (that) offensive by it,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Sometime you really have no clue, do you?

arkarian

2005-12-17 03:48:22 pm

red chamber dream

Nah, I understand that the term was originally created out of contempt, but nowadays, the majority of people using the term don't really care what it means; it's just what everyone else is using.

13M13

2005-12-17 04:47:39 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Arkarian:

Quote from I:

And how are these no longer speedruns?

JaggerG already explained that.

It was a poor explanation that made no sense. Using Jagger's logic, a segmented run would not qualify as a speedrun because you can also "take a break."

There are three types of speedruns: single-segment, segmented, and tool-assisted. A tool-assisted speedrun is mearly a segmented run in disguise; instead of fifteen segments, it has thousands of segments. Just because the three types of runs use different methods of getting to the finish line doesn't change the fact that they still race on the same track.

If you want to use the most accurate term possible when describing a TAS, I'd nominate "emulator-assisted segmented speedrun." But in the end, I don't think it'd make much of a difference.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-17 04:51:42 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from 13M13:

There are three types of speedruns: single-segment, segmented, and tool-assisted. A tool-assisted speedrun is mearly a segmented run in disguise; instead of fifteen segments, it has thousands of segments. Just because the three types of runs use different methods of getting to the finish line doesn't change the fact that they still race on the same track.

This argument is both valid and cogent.

The difference between segments and savestates, of course, is the fact that the game allows you segments de facto.

SamuraiSamus

2005-12-17 04:55:06 pm

Beware: off duty ninja

well I think that the first option for the game manipulation video seems appropriate. it lets people know that it isn't a speed run as well as telling the person about to watch it that it isn't real in the sense that a speed run is. I don't like the term technical demonstration, as technical demos seem much more doable because they don't use rather strange glitches that involve manipulating the game in such a way as to do things that look ridiculous (in some time attack vids I've watched, waiting until the last possible frame to shoot an enemy taking advantage of collision detection is bad. I don't think it looks good at all when I see an enemy sprite halfway into the main character >.< )

13M13

2005-12-17 06:41:53 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

The difference between segments and savestates, of course, is the fact that the game allows you segments de facto.

I think your use of "segments" in this context is wrong. When you save in-game or use emulator savestates you are creating segments. The only difference is the length of those segments (i.e., in emulated runs, the segments may only be a few frames long).

But regardless of the methods, "emulator-assisted" (EA) speedruns are [b]still speedruns![/b] I don't see how it can be any other way.

---

My complaints of the poll list are as follow:

"Game-manipulation" - Whenever you play a game, you manipulate it. It's less clear than "tool-assisted", in my opinion.

"Slowdown-assisted" - Not all of these runs use slowdown.

"Cyborg" - Utterly meaningless.

"Tool-assisted" - I have no problem with the currently established term. I do, however, suggest the use of "emulator-assisted" (or "emulator-assisted segmented" if you want to get real anal) if "tool-assisted" is too vague for some of you...

"Technical demonstration" - If it's a speedrun, it's a speedrun. It's pointless to use this term when describing speeeeedruns. Sure, if the video is of a technical demonstration of some aspect of the game, and does not qualify as a speedrun, please, by all means use this term.

"Non-legal" - Uhhh...yeah.

---

Note that I'm only using the term "emulator-assisted" when describing "tool-assisted" speedruns because I don't want anybody to get confused about what tool is being used. :|

And to those of you who disagree with the use of "emulator" understand that your playing on an entirely different field. Submitting a emulated run that does not take advantage of all the tools emulators give to you is like submitting a two-part console speedrun. What's the point? If you want to compete with console runs, do it on a console. If you want to compete with emulated runs, do it on an emulator. Just realize that both realms have vastly different rules and standards.

[quote="SABERinBLUE"]The difference between segments and savestates, of course, is the fact that the game allows you segments de facto.[/quote]

I think your use of "segments" in this context is wrong.  When you save in-game or use emulator savestates you are [i]creating[/i] segments.  The only difference is the length of those segments (i.e., in emulated runs, the segments may only be a few frames long).

But regardless of the methods, "emulator-assisted" (EA) speedruns are [i][b]still speedruns![/i][/b]  I don't see how it can be any other way.

---

My complaints of the poll list are as follow:

[i]"Game-manipulation"[/i] - Whenever you play a game, you manipulate it.  It's less clear than "tool-assisted", in my opinion.

[i]"Slowdown-assisted"[/i] - Not all of these runs use slowdown.

[i]"Cyborg"[/i] - Utterly meaningless.

[i]"Tool-assisted"[/i] - I have no problem with the currently established term.  I do, however, suggest the use of "emulator-assisted" (or "emulator-assisted segmented" if you want to get real anal) if "tool-assisted" is too vague for some of you...

[i]"Technical demonstration"[/i] - If it's a speedrun, it's a speedrun.  It's pointless to use this term when describing [b]speeeeedruns[/b].  Sure, if the video is of a technical demonstration of some aspect of the game, and does not qualify as a speedrun, please, by all means use this term.

[i]"Non-legal"[/i] - Uhhh...yeah.

---

Note that I'm only using the term "emulator-assisted" when describing "tool-assisted" speedruns because I don't want anybody to get confused about what tool is being used.  :|

And to those of you who disagree with the use of "emulator" understand that your playing on an entirely different field.  Submitting a emulated run that does not take advantage of all the tools emulators give to you is like submitting a two-part console speedrun.  What's the point?  If you want to compete with console runs, do it on a console.  If you want to compete with emulated runs, do it on an emulator.  Just realize that both realms have vastly different rules and standards.

arkarian

2005-12-17 06:51:22 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from 13M13:

But regardless of the methods, "emulator-assisted" (EA) speedruns are [b]still speedruns![/b] I don't see how it can be any other way.

Because they're not about speed? You don't go about making the final project by moving as fast as you can. In a speed run, the objective is to complete the game as quickly as you can, by moving as quickly as you can. With slowdown, that's just not possible. Saves/Savestates have nothing to do with it.

Quote from 13M13:

"Cyborg" - Utterly meaningless.

Pardon? It's the perfect descriptor.

13M13

2005-12-17 07:07:50 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Arkarian:

Because they're not about speed? You don't go about making the final project by moving as fast as you can. <snip>

Uhhh...what!? Have you any experience with emulated runs? If someone comes up with a run that is faster than yours, it is [b]replaced[/b]. First one to the finish wins. You may not be using methods used on a console, but that's because it's played [b]on an emulator[/b]. Slowdown is a tool used to execute the fastest route through the game. I don't understand how this is not clear.

On the other hand, (*head smack*), "cyborg" does make sense to me now. You did indeed clarify that for me. But because of the way the word "cyborg" is used in most contexts, I do think that the use of the term will be more confusing to the public than "tool-assisted." This has already been stated, of course.

arkarian

2005-12-17 07:11:22 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from 13M13:

Have you any experience with emulated runs? If someone comes up with a run that is faster than yours, it is [b]replaced[/b]. First one to the finish wins.

You can't "replace" a console run with an emulated run. They're two entirely different mediums.

Quote from 13M13:

But because of the way the word "cyborg" is used in most contexts, I do think that the use of the term will be more confusing to the public than "tool-assisted."

Which is fine. As someone already said, it will force the public to look up the term, therefore betteing their knowledge of the subject.

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-17 07:20:46 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from SamuraiSamus:

I don't like the term technical demonstration, as technical demos seem much more doable because they don't use rather strange glitches that involve manipulating the game in such a way as to do things that look ridiculous (in some time attack vids I've watched, waiting until the last possible frame to shoot an enemy taking advantage of collision detection is bad. I don't think it looks good at all when I see an enemy sprite halfway into the main character >.< )

I also think it looks pretty weird to see Samus with the Space Jump and no Morph Ball in Prime. Sounds ridiculous, right? Getting the Space Jump before the Morph Ball? That doesn't sound doable at all to me.

RT-55J

2005-12-17 07:25:21 pm

Armor Guardian

Quote from Arkarian:

Quote from 13M13:

Have you any experience with emulated runs? If someone comes up with a run that is faster than yours, it is [b]replaced[/b]. First one to the finish wins.

You can't "replace" a console run with an emulated run. They're two entirely different mediums.

You can't "replace" a segmented run with an single-segmented run.

13M13

2005-12-17 07:50:22 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from RT-55J:

Quote from Arkarian:

Quote from I:

Have you any experience with emulated runs? If someone comes up with a run that is faster than yours, it is replaced. First one to the finish wins.

You can't "replace" a console run with an emulated run. They're two entirely different mediums.

You can't "replace" a segmented run with an single-segmented run.

I wasn't talking about console runs at all. Let me clarify... You've created a tool-assisted speedrun of Super Mario World with a time of one minute. Someone else comes along and creates a tool-assisted speedrun of the same game with a time of fifty seconds. Who wins? The faster time wins.

Slowdown/frame-by-frame analysis/savestates/rewinding/glitch manipulation/etcetera are all tools used to execute the fastest route through the game!

Quote from Arkarian:

Quote from I:

But because of the way the word "cyborg" is used in most contexts, I do think that the use of the term will be more confusing to the public than "tool-assisted."

Which is fine. As someone already said, it will force the public to look up the term, therefore betteing their knowledge of the subject.

What makes you think that they will care? Apparently they haven't bothered to figure out what "tool" is being used, so why would they bother to figure out what "cyborg" is referring to? While I don't especially mind the use of the term why not keep the one that is already well established? Introducing another is largely unnecessary.

In the end, however, I'm just curious why no one feels the term "speedrun" applies to tool-assisted romps through a game.

[quote="RT-55J"][quote="Arkarian"][quote="I"]Have you any experience with emulated runs? If someone comes up with a run that is faster than yours, it is replaced. First one to the finish wins.[/quote]You can't "replace" a console run with an emulated run. They're two entirely different mediums.[/quote]You can't "replace" a segmented run with an single-segmented run.[/quote]

I wasn't talking about console runs [b]at all[/b].  Let me clarify...  You've created a [i][b]tool-assisted speedrun[/b][/i] of Super Mario World with a time of one minute.  Someone else comes along and creates a [i][b]tool-assisted speedrun[/b][/i] of the same game with a time of fifty seconds.  Who wins?  The [b]faster[/b] time wins.

[b]Slowdown/frame-by-frame analysis/savestates/rewinding/glitch manipulation/etcetera are all tools used to execute the fastest route through the game![/b]

[quote="Arkarian"][quote="I"]But because of the way the word "cyborg" is used in most contexts, I do think that the use of the term will be more confusing to the public than "tool-assisted."[/quote]Which is fine. As someone already said, it will force the public to look up the term, therefore betteing their knowledge of the subject.[/quote]

What makes you think that they will care?  Apparently they haven't bothered to figure out what "tool" is being used, so why would they bother to figure out what "cyborg" is referring to?  While I don't especially mind the use of the term why not keep the one that is already well established?  Introducing another is largely unnecessary.

In the end, however, I'm just curious why no one feels the term "speedrun" applies to tool-assisted romps through a game.

Maur

2005-12-17 08:48:38 pm

Quote from 13M13:

In the end, however, I'm just curious why no one feels the term "speedrun" applies to tool-assisted romps through a game.

\

No, I agree that the term 'speedrun' does apply. Something with 'run' in it should be the final decision.

Kaos

2005-12-17 09:23:25 pm

This was a though decision.

Game manipulation videos sounds like someone has modified the game to make something happen that isn’t supposed to happen.

Slowdown assisted videos is far too narrow to describe the tools used by a TASer.

Cyborg runs didn’t seem adequate at first due to the total lack of description of what is being done. When I saw Kejardon’s post about the undescriptive nature of cyborg run requiring an inquiry into just what it is I thought that could work.

Tool-assisted videos does describe the nature the way a TASer uses emulator tools to make the video but is so general that it could mean something else such as a third-party controller that is capable of things the official controller can’t do.

Technical demonstration sounds as though it is intended to show the viewer how something is done rather than a TAS.

Non-legal video doesn’t really work as a completely legitimate, no save-states, no slowdown emulated run is still illegal.

In the end I decided on cyborg runs for the reasons Kejardon stated.

This was a though decision.

Game manipulation videos sounds like someone has modified the game to make something happen that isn’t supposed to happen.

Slowdown assisted videos is far too narrow to describe the tools used by a TASer.

Cyborg runs didn’t seem adequate at first due to the total lack of description of what is being done. When I saw Kejardon’s post about the undescriptive nature of cyborg run requiring an inquiry into just what it is I thought that could work.

Tool-assisted videos does describe the nature the way a TASer uses emulator tools to make the video but is so general that it could mean something else such as a third-party controller that is capable of things the official controller can’t do.

Technical demonstration sounds as though it is intended to show the viewer how something is done rather than a TAS.

Non-legal video doesn’t really work as a completely legitimate, no save-states, no slowdown emulated run is still illegal.

In the end I decided on cyborg runs for the reasons Kejardon stated.

Daniel, Lord Bahamut

2005-12-18 03:27:34 am

Mega Flare

Voted cyborg, but I'd like to suggest another term, which I just saw over at bisqwit's: computer aided optimization. It's more accurate than tool-assisted, since really the only aid a computer can have in a console run is in information about the game and capture quality (please correct me if I'm wrong), and the first thing that comes to mind when I think of computers and video games is the emulator (excepting of course the obvious computer-only games).

Thoughts?

Saturn

2005-12-18 07:46:24 am

Quote from 13M13:

In the end, however, I'm just curious why no one feels the term "speedrun" applies to tool-assisted romps through a game.

I also agree that they are speedruns. Most TAS'es aim for fastest possible time so how can you describe them to give a correct picture to the reader if not using the term speedrun?

Quote from 13M13:

What makes you think that they will care? Apparently they haven't bothered to figure out what "tool" is being used, so why would they bother to figure out what "cyborg" is referring to? While I don't especially mind the use of the term why not keep the one that is already well established?

This is a good point. If you say a Cyborg Run "must" confuse the reader so a TAS will also do it if they don't know what it is. Only that a TAS is a more popular term for such movies today.

Bisqwit

2005-12-18 08:33:46 am

Slowdown isn't the only tool. The core issue is re-recording, that is savestates.

Non-legal might be a right word from the perspective of your site, but your
site only. It assumes the existance of rules that define what is legal and
what is not. Tool-assisted videos are perfectly legal on the Nesvideos site.

Technical demonstration: On the Nesvideos site, this word is reserved for
videos that aren't complete game runs. Trick collections, single levels
and other kinds of demonstrations fall into this category. Demonstrations
aren't usually perfected for speed, unless speed is a crucial such element
such as in the scene in Super Metroid where you normally have to roll, but
if you run pumping the hands, you can pass before the doors close.

Game manipulation: I think this is a way too broad term. What this term says
to me is that cheats may be used. Cheats that modify the RAM, such as giving
infinite life points or increased weapon power.
On the other hand, literally, all playing could be game manipulation,
be it tool-assisted or not.

This leaves two terms:
- cyborg run
- tool-assisted video

Like I earlier explained, I like the term 'cyborg run' because there's
something in it that matches the spirit of my site, but I will continue
to use the established term, 'tool-assisted speedrun'.
'Tool-assisted video' and 'tool-assisted speedrun' are both okay,
but I think there's nothing wrong in saying 'tool-assisted speedrun'
when the video in question actually aims for speed. It's a speedrun
for all intents and purposes.

I refrain from voting so that you don't have reason to think that people from other site dictate what you do here.

Slowdown isn't the only tool. The core issue is re-recording, that is savestates.

Non-legal might be a right word from the perspective of your site, but your
site only. It assumes the existance of rules that define what is legal and
what is not. Tool-assisted videos are perfectly legal on the Nesvideos site.

Technical demonstration: On the Nesvideos site, this word is reserved for
videos that aren't complete game runs. Trick collections, single levels
and other kinds of demonstrations fall into this category. Demonstrations
aren't usually perfected for speed, unless speed is a crucial such element
such as in the scene in Super Metroid where you normally have to roll, but
if you run pumping the hands, you can pass before the doors close.

Game manipulation: I think this is a way too broad term. What this term says
to me is that cheats may be used. Cheats that modify the RAM, such as giving
infinite life points or increased weapon power.
On the other hand, literally, all playing could be game manipulation,
be it tool-assisted or not.

This leaves two terms:
- cyborg run
- tool-assisted video

Like I earlier explained, I like the term 'cyborg run' because there's
something in it that matches the spirit of my site, but I will continue
to use the established term, 'tool-assisted speedrun'.
'Tool-assisted video' and 'tool-assisted speedrun' are both okay,    
but I think there's nothing wrong in saying 'tool-assisted speedrun'
when the video in question actually aims for speed. It's a speedrun    
for all intents and purposes.

I refrain from voting so that you don't have reason to think that people from other site dictate what you do here.

Laney

(user is banned)

2005-12-18 09:35:20 am

I voted for technical demonstration, because it's neutral and clear for everyone and it sounds a lot better than those other thingys.

and: When I see emu-rape I think of a rape in sexual terms.....

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-18 02:20:19 pm

Cook of the Sea

Bisqwit, you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I take my hat off to you. I do not wear a hat, but humor me.

13M13

2005-12-18 06:58:21 pm

l'appel du vide

Quote from Laney:

When I see emu-rape I think of a rape in sexual terms...

That's a shocker.

---

Is Bisquit's site the only major cyborg speedrunning site? I'm curious to know if there are any others.

Maur

2005-12-18 06:59:31 pm

Bisqwit's pretty much it, afaik.

JaggerG

2005-12-18 09:28:05 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I've always wondered whether tool assisted runs and lip-syncing "performers" were on the same level. They didn't really perform the run. I guess you could consider it a difference between players and conductors. These are games, not musical compositions.

Personally, I'd rather see someone accomplish something on their own. I don't just want a show; I want a performance. I applaud those with the necessary skill. You expect perfection from a computer assisted run, and they're not always perfect, either. You sometimes scoff at the conductor's carelessness. You don't know how impressive a human can be on his or her own. They will surprise you, especially if you've tried yourself and know how hard it is.

Maybe the difference in appreciation is the same difference between gaming and television.