nomenclature [locked]

2005-12-14 08:19:59 pm

Beware: off duty ninja

well as offensive as the term emu rape is, I'm going to stick with it. doing an emulated run with savestates is a negative thing that hurts the speedrunning community as a whole ( I know that bisqwit tries to clear things up and does a good job of it )

seeing as there are people who will watch the faster run thinking it's legit and then finding out it's fake, and then lumping all speed runners into that category regardless. that kind of stuff really puts a mark on the community and it's one that dosen't go away easily. I worked really hard on my 1:49 MP run, and for someone to call it fake gets me rather confrontational (these people also play video games. they know that some games are glitchy. . . . but still think that this stuff is fake)

as far as the emulator run idea, that would be a good one, as I use emu's to play GBA metroids but dont' savestate them. while they should not be competing in the same bracket as world record stuff, labelling something an emulator run (where there are no savestates/slowdown. . . all that stuff) might grow the community a bit which would be good.

I guess I'm saying that "too assisted runs" need to be called emu rape. they don't do the greatest things for the speed running community as a whole, and that needs to be shown in what they're called. you need an offensive name for an offensive action (or in this case, speed runs)

well as offensive as the term emu rape is, I'm going to stick with it. doing an emulated run with savestates is a negative thing that hurts the speedrunning community as a whole ( I know that bisqwit tries to clear things up and does a good job of it )

seeing as there are people who will watch the faster run thinking it's legit and then finding out it's fake, and then lumping all speed runners into that category regardless. that kind of stuff really puts a mark on the community and it's one that dosen't go away easily. I worked really hard on my 1:49 MP run, and for someone to call it fake gets me rather confrontational (these people also play video games. they know that some games are glitchy. . . . but still think that this stuff is fake)

as far as the emulator run idea, that would be a good one, as I use emu's to play GBA metroids but dont' savestate them. while they should not be competing in the same bracket as world record stuff, labelling something an emulator run (where there are no savestates/slowdown. . . all that stuff) might grow the community a bit which would be good.

I guess I'm saying that "too assisted runs" need to be called emu rape. they don't do the greatest things for the speed running community as a whole, and that needs to be shown in what they're called. you need an offensive name for an offensive action (or in this case, speed runs)

Chanoire

2005-12-14 09:15:18 pm

Quote from SamuraiSamus:

as far as the emulator run idea, that would be a good one, as I use emu's to play GBA metroids but dont' savestate them. while they should not be competing in the same bracket as world record stuff, labelling something an emulator run (where there are no savestates/slowdown. . . all that stuff) might grow the community a bit which would be good.

Isn't the problem that slowdown and savestate use can't be detected in the emu movie output and so there would be no way of verifying that they hadn't been used?

I understand your desire for a negative term for a negative action -- I feel the same way about people who call actual rape "surprise sex" -- but I really wish it wouldn't be one that's essentially aimed at a specific segment of the population. Maybe not in literal meaning -- men have been raped, and women have been convicted of rape -- but in practical terms.

nate

2005-12-14 09:33:52 pm

'rape' will no longer be used here after we decide on a new name.

spineshark

2005-12-14 09:37:59 pm

in the name of justice!

Well then I'll keep pushing for "Video Game Destruction Derby." ;)

mangadood

2005-12-14 10:16:07 pm

Too many fangirls to count

Fine.... Emu Molestation if you must!

Yoshi348

2005-12-14 10:30:02 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Once again, Klefmung doesn't get it. How suprising.

Just to add another term to the large and unwieldy collection of terms here, I've always said "save-state-o-matic" when I really didn't want to use either term (which is often).

mangadood

2005-12-14 11:04:33 pm

Too many fangirls to count

I get it, I just joke about it. If you didn't see that that was a joke, you are a forth grader who is 46 years old and a pedophile. So, yea, I got carried away.

SamuraiSamus

2005-12-15 01:21:38 am

Beware: off duty ninja

Quote from njahnke:

'rape' will no longer be used here after we decide on a new name.

to drag an old term out . . . what about quarking? just a suggestion as I know the history behind using quarking as the term for the tool assisted run (on m2k2 at least), unless there needs to be a formal definition for some reason that I'm not aware of.

and chanorie: yes, there is that issue you brought up about not being able ot detect the manipulation in question. I read that and was just thinking about the people who don't use the savestate stuff but may want to piece together a technical demo similar to RS and beating metroid with only two items (she did use the emu and savestates, but as I recall from her comments it was strictly for convienence as opposed to a manipulated run.) definetley some trust issues, but I'm not gonna tackle that issue at this time.

nate

2005-12-15 01:24:53 am

afaik we're still clinging to the hope that what we decide on will carry more info than that.

MonsterERB

2005-12-15 12:08:56 pm

Well, I still think my suggestion of "computer-assisted technical demonstration" was a good one. Barring that, DJ's suggestions (savestate-assisted run and slowdown-assisted run) are also very good. I think the key is that the name for these "TAS" runs makes clear that the runner was using artificial assistance in order to achieve tricks and speed not possible to achieve otherwise.
...
The main point of the TAS community seems to be that they are using these tools to "overcome the limits of skill and reflex" (myself, I would call them "requirements" instead of "limits"), and that they are trying to make entertaining videos/works of art. I do not think the term "tool-assisted speedrun" states clearly enough that the game has been manipulated to the point where actual gaming skill is no longer required. (Given that a good amount of gaming skill is needed to properly plan the run and the tricks it will contain. A SM newb could not pull off the tricks Saturn does, even with extreme slowdown and savestates.)
...
Another possibility would be to go for something that makes an easy acronym, say "Speedrun Assisted by Slowdown and Savestates", or "SASS run". I'm sure there's better out there, but it's something to consider.

Well, I still think my suggestion of "[b]computer-assisted technical demonstration[/b]" was a good one.  Barring that, DJ's suggestions ([b]savestate-assisted run[/b] and [b]slowdown-assisted run[/b]) are also very good.  I think the key is that the name for these "TAS" runs makes clear that the runner was using artificial assistance in order to achieve tricks and speed not possible to achieve otherwise.
...
The main point of the TAS community seems to be that they are using these tools to "overcome the limits of skill and reflex" (myself, I would call them "requirements" instead of "limits"), and that they are trying to make entertaining videos/works of art.  I do not think the term "tool-assisted speedrun" states clearly enough that the game has been manipulated to the point where actual gaming skill is no longer required.  (Given that a good amount of gaming skill is needed to properly plan the run and the tricks it will contain.  A SM newb could not pull off the tricks Saturn does, even with extreme slowdown and savestates.)
...
Another possibility would be to go for something that makes an easy acronym, say "[u]S[/u]peedrun [u]A[/u]ssisted by [u]S[/u]lowdown and [u]S[/u]avestates", or "SASS run".  I'm sure there's better out there, but it's something to consider.

DominicanZero

2005-12-15 12:57:25 pm

直死の魔眼使い

The main problem with that, Monster, is the fact that we're looking for a denomination that will imply in itself that the run is something superhuman, and thus, unachievable by normal standards. The word cyborg describes it pretty well, since it implies that a robotic entity did it, which would be the only logical explanation if such a run were to be reproduced on physical media (i.e. the console the game was designed for). Cyborg runs are stuff made beyond human ability, since they depict the absolutely perfect game in all situations, given games' relatively random situations provoked within one playthrough.

SkippyJr

2005-12-15 02:52:10 pm

The term "quarked" was started here, but it seems to have fallen out of use a long time ago. What happened?

I'd suggest these runs be called "emuhugged", as it stirs up funky emotions with the right kind of people (verses the current popular term). Guys are always freaked out by hugs.

Reviewer: Yay! You skipped the Golden Torizo fight! *hugs*
TASer: Ghaaaa!

DJGrenola

2005-12-15 04:37:26 pm

"emuyiff" ?

sorry.

"steroidware" ?

edit: it seems to me that the term needs to be one of two things. It either needs to be instantly self-explanatory, as "slowdown-assisted run" sort of is, or it needs to be something unique, like calling it a "grummled run" or something. The danger with using "cyborg run" is it could be assumed that it's some sort of adjective describing the run or some aspect of it, and can easily just be ignored (for example I think "cyborg run" actually describes kip's 1:04 pretty well). If you picked a term that wasn't in current use, you'd stand a much better chance that people would stop and ask "what does that mean" ?

</inept_amateur_psychology>

nate

2005-12-15 04:54:02 pm

would be cool if we could somehow get out of using the word "run" entirely.

Random Zelda Person

2005-12-15 05:05:16 pm

I agree completely; I think "demonstration" is an appropriate term for them.

MonsterERB

2005-12-15 05:07:08 pm

How about calling it a computer-assisted demonstration? CAD, for short. (Okay, it's the same suggestion I've been making, w/o the word "technical" in there.)

StarmanHaxor

2005-12-15 05:19:12 pm

Quote from Random Zelda Person:

I agree completely; I think "demonstration" is an appropriate term for them.

Massive slowdown and abuse of savestates is NOT a demonstration.

MonsterERB

2005-12-15 05:25:29 pm

Well, I think "demonstration" fits what they're doing more than "speedrun". Here's the thing - using extreme slowdown and tons of re-records, you can achieve stupidly fast game times. Yet, I don't equate "playing at extremely slow speeds" with "speed run", no matter the final game time. Now, the TAS'er can use these tools to demonstrate what is theoretically possible, if you had godly hand-eye coordination and reflexes.
...
I think these videos are much more a demonstration of the game than they are a speedrun of the game. And, the whole point of the discussion is to agree on a term that accurately describes these vids w/o being derogatory. Or, at least less derogatory than "emu-rape". Just so long as everyone realizes that whatever we decide to call them, the folks at bisqwit's site are very unlikely to change what THEY call them.

Radix

2005-12-15 06:09:51 pm

Personally I think speed run is two words and everyone make it one can go to hell!

What, that's not what we're talking about?

StarmanHaxor

2005-12-15 06:18:02 pm

gb2 recruiting bricks or read the topic.

;)

We're trying to decide what name to give the term emu-rape.

Or you're just being sarcastic. I don't know with you.

arkarian

2005-12-15 06:20:17 pm

red chamber dream

Cyborg Demonstration? Though, I guess people don't like calling them "cyborg" at all.

Also, I don't like "demonstration", because of SDA: "Speed Demo(nstration)s Archive".
"Presentation" or "Exihibition" get my vote. Especially the latter. "Illustration" might work, too.

DominicanZero

2005-12-15 06:25:45 pm

直死の魔眼使い

Quote from StarmanHaxor:

Massive slowdown and abuse of savestates is NOT a demonstration.

True, it's not a demonstration. It's a demonistration. :P

DJGrenola

2005-12-15 06:35:19 pm

I remember suggesting "exhibition" on IRC a while ago (c.f. exhibition matches in sports).

SABERinBLUE

2005-12-15 06:41:55 pm

Cook of the Sea

I have a feeling everyone's going to call them whatever they want anyway, apart from "rape" being banned or whatever. A few people are already saying "cyborg run".

Man, I'ma just use that too.

Brightstar

2005-12-15 10:23:27 pm

I'd like to offer an alternative name.

"Non-Legal"

The main reason for this is the simple fact that those who play these roms on emulators are playing these games illegally, due to the fact that only the rom ripper would be legally entitled to play these games. As such in almost all cases, any Tool Assisted run is in fact being played illegally. This allows it to have a double meaning saying that "This is not a legal run for consideration of competition" and "this was played from an illegaly ripped rom."

In addition, i'd like to add another part if we ever decide on a new name.

All whatever hence forth must bear a line of text stating "this is a whatever run and is for entertainment purposes only. It has no bearing in world record attempts." This message must be displayed either every 5 minutes for 5 seconds, or must be displayed throughout the run, but so it doesn't distract from the actual gameplay, it may be placed anywhere on the screen. There are many places on a game's HUD where this would fit easily. It must also be in a font size that is visible. (10-14 would probably be sufficient)

I'd like to offer an alternative name.

"Non-Legal"

The main reason for this is the simple fact that those who play these roms on emulators are playing these games illegally, due to the fact that only the rom ripper would be legally entitled to play these games. As such in almost all cases, any Tool Assisted run is in fact being played illegally. This allows it to have a double meaning saying that "This is not a legal run for consideration of competition" and "this was played from an illegaly ripped rom."

In addition, i'd like to add another part if we ever decide on a new name.

All whatever hence forth must bear a line of text stating "this is a  whatever run and is for entertainment purposes only. It has no bearing in world record attempts." This message must be displayed either every 5 minutes for 5 seconds, or must be displayed throughout the run, but so it doesn't distract from the actual gameplay, it may be placed anywhere on the screen. There are many places on a game's HUD where this would fit easily. It must also be in a font size that is visible. (10-14 would probably be sufficient)