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Quote from arkarian:
yeah, how terrible.

Oh, not terrible at all, just inferior to it's sequel. I'm not arguing against MP1's beauty. I'm just saying MP2 is overall more artistic and original.

Quote from arkarian:
isn't earth the same way though? aside from that however, who cares if it's realistic or feels extremely cohesive? extremely cohesive worlds in games are boring. they're games, not real life.

While specific, varied environments do exist on earth, they are connected by everything in between them. One doesn't exist right next to the other without being affected by it. in mp1 these beautiful places seem in complete disconnect to me.
I find Aether as whole beautiful because the details in each environment matter more. They are less surprising, but each section feels a part instead of it's own whole. It's fine to disagree and say you appreciate each section of MP1 more than MP2's sections, but I just think Retro should be recognized for pulling off cohesion in MP2. Mostly it drives me crazy when people brag about MP1 artistic qualities, which are well-done, and then ignore MP2's artistic qualities, which I believe more sophisticated. You call it boring, I call it beautiful.

Quote from arkarian:
except when they actually tried that in corruption, it was totally lame.

Well, that's a different discussion entirely. :)

Quote from tomatobob:
Oh hey, I can oversimplify things too!
Echoes featured:
Generic Temple Grounds World!
Desert World!
Swamp World!
Robot World!

There's nothing inherently bad about sticking to a standard set of themes for levels, every game does it because there's a pretty limited number of options in general and they are known to work. It's how you do them that's important. Prime did it well, Echoes didn't Torvus was the only one that wasn't boring and Aether was no more cohesive than Tallon IV. Also the Dark World versions of each area was always 100% better than the regular version, the Ing themed designs were way better than the Luminoth ones. Echoes was definitely better looking than Prime technically, but it still looks like boring shit in comparison.


I may be wrong, but it occurs to me that because of the way Echoes progresses, each world was designed with the whole, the 'light of aether' in mind. I believe this is WHY they are more cohesive. as for how it's more cohesive, I would simply take another look at what you cast away as 'boring'. Having worlds that had a theme, but without the theme all held element that made it feel like aether.
these are hard to pin-point, but you might think about this: (maybe I'm alone here)
for me seeing creatures being repeated on Tallon IV always make me cringe, just slightly. Why would there be an ice version of all these creatures? It's a technical question, and on Tallon IV I wasn't sold on it. On Aether, the designs hold constant enough that when I see a creature in a specific place repeated in the game I never question why it's there. It's there because I'm on Aether and... why wouldn't I see that creature again? They Subdued some of the section-specific shock value in favor of more world-specific designs.

Again, I'm still not claiming MP1's direction is bad (looking at video games as a medium, how could I?), just that I believe MP2 to be the greater achievement. Using those cliche environments sure as shit did work, but having one completely alien environment with subtlety different areas is, in my mind, better.

Not gonna argue with dark world comment.. I disagree but, whatever.

Also, me claiming MP2 has more artistic value than MP1 shouldn't mean I don't think MP1 is ugly or something.
It's still probably 3rd or 4th or so if I made my list of best games artistically, so keep that in mind.

This series in general has better direction than just about any other video game series ever. Exceptions to the medium's overall immaturity may be Okami or SoTCollosus
red chamber dream
so it didn't bother you that echoze just copy-pasted creatures from prime (and gave them retarded names)? grenchlers? seriously?

Quote from yllib:
This series in general has better direction than just about any other video game series ever. Exceptions to the medium's overall immaturity may be Okami or SoTCollosus

corruption begs to differ. well, echoze too, but i don't think i can convince you on that. ookami looks nice but is really boring and easy, and sotc, while it's got great atmosphere and the colossi battles are epic as hell, looks like ass (bloom bloom bloom!!) and has severe framerate problems.

i do agree that prime has some fantastic direction though.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-03-14 04:32:54 pm
Quote from yllib:
This series in general has better direction than just about any other video game series ever.

Some of the desing is really good. But overall it is clearly lacking the serious touch SM has provided. Thats the
problem I have with Prime and rest regarding its artistic control.
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
Quote from J_SNAKE:
But overall it is clearly lacking the serious touch SM has provided.

Because nothing's quite as serious as golden-colored crab-like pirate aliens ninja-kicking you in your face.
There should be a book of Toozin quotes.
Edit history:
J_SNAKE: 2010-03-14 06:32:02 pm
Quote from Toozin:
Quote from J_SNAKE:
But overall it is clearly lacking the serious touch SM has provided.

Because nothing's quite as serious as golden-colored crab-like pirate aliens ninja-kicking you in your face.

Forgot thats what SM is remembered for.

In SM the music and visual styling of the environment and enemies has a more serious touch. In Prime it is dumbed down. These qualities are harder to achieve at a scope of 3D.
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Quote from yllib:
On Aether, the designs hold constant enough that when I see a creature in a specific place repeated in the game I never question why it's there. It's there because I'm on Aether and... why wouldn't I see that creature again? They Subdued some of the section-specific shock value in favor of more world-specific designs.

See, this is the problem for me. The 'world specific' designs felt less like traveling all over the world and more like taking a couple steps to the left, if it all feels the same there's something wrong, the only case where it would be justified is with Sanctuary since it was purely Luminoth construction. Agon should feel like a desert not like a repaint of the place you just left, it's a totally different climate and a totally different place, it should be different. Upper Torvus was the only area that really felt like it wasn't just the Temple Grounds but slightly different to me, there was a lot going on in it, things seemed to be designed around the fact that it was a bog not an extension of the hub world.

If you wanted to make a bunch of areas that seemed similar you might as well separate them with doors and long hallways that gradually alter the scenery, not stick an elevator there and suggest that it's an entirely different region. Funnily, Prime pulled both of those off with the Chozo Ruins to Magmoor change, leaving the ruins after Flaahgra led you to an area that still had a Chozo Ruins style that soon gave way to this deep underground cavern area full of lava. Echoes never managed anything like that because the variation really wasn't there and it's far more interesting in my mind to see several varied areas rather than several very similar areas that just aren't very interesting in the first place.
Quote from arkarian:
so it didn't bother you that echoze just copy-pasted creatures from prime (and gave them retarded names)? grenchlers? seriously?


It did, a little bit.
metroid names usually suck, I mean... space pirates? awful.

Quote from tomatobob:
See, this is the problem for me. The 'world specific' designs felt less like traveling all over the world and more like taking a couple steps to the left, if it all feels the same there's something wrong, the only case where it would be justified is with Sanctuary since it was purely Luminoth construction. Agon should feel like a desert not like a repaint of the place you just left, it's a totally different climate and a totally different place, it should be different. Upper Torvus was the only area that really felt like it wasn't just the Temple Grounds but slightly different to me, there was a lot going on in it, things seemed to be designed around the fact that it was a bog not an extension of the hub world.

If you wanted to make a bunch of areas that seemed similar you might as well separate them with doors and long hallways that gradually alter the scenery, not stick an elevator there and suggest that it's an entirely different region. Funnily, Prime pulled both of those off with the Chozo Ruins to Magmoor change, leaving the ruins after Flaahgra led you to an area that still had a Chozo Ruins style that soon gave way to this deep underground cavern area full of lava. Echoes never managed anything like that because the variation really wasn't there and it's far more interesting in my mind to see several varied areas rather than several very similar areas that just aren't very interesting in the first place.

Fair enough. I liked the things you disliked, apparently.
Edit history:
FirePhoenix: 2010-03-15 01:07:01 am
What always confused me was the elevators connecting areas in Prime 1 and 2.  I know that they're there for technical and nostalgic reasons but think about them in terms of the planet.  2 is the bigger culprit here.  The elevator from Temple Grounds to Sanctuary Fortress clearly goes downwards yet when you get outside in the fortress and look down, you're suspended over a massive emptiness.  In Temple Grounds when you looked out at the elevator to Agon you could see the ground.  There is none to be seen in the fortress.  So that means this planet has some seriously screwed up elevation problems or something.

The only elevator problem i'd have in Prime is how Phendrana appears to be sitting right atop Magmoor which I guess could work since there are volcanoes on Earth that have lots of snow covering their tops but Phendrana isn't a mountain.  I just feel like Phendrana could have been placed better or that there should have been some sign near the elevators to Magmoor that there is in fact a volcanic cavern sprawling below and presumably letting off lots of hot fumes.  The area near the Ruins elevator in Magmoor starts out with Ruins tileset objects then turns into the cavernous areas.  Nothing in Phendrana does.

This is just minor nitpicking though and I don't really mind it all too much.  It's just stuff that you realize when you start thinking about it all.

Edit: And apparently Tbob already beat me to the scenery changes part in his last post.  Didn't fully read it until I'd posted.
red chamber dream
i think prime's elevators actually do make a lot of sense. i mean who knows exactly how far magmoor lies below phendrana. could be so far down that it wouldn't make a difference near the surface. i always imagined the elevators being built and used either by the chozo for resource mining or by the space pirates in their search for phazon.
yeah there obviously was a Chozo prescence in Phendrana and Magmoor, as there are Chozo statues.  Also I think it makes more sense that Magmoor is underground, as it would be closer to the planet's core, thus being hotter.
Indie Lover
didn't we already disscussed this matter before? and i remember "J-Snake" was the epicenter of that disscusion too...

dude, SM wasn't all that y'know?
Quote from yllib:
While specific, varied environments do exist on earth, they are connected by everything in between them. One doesn't exist right next to the other without being affected by it. in mp1 these beautiful places seem in complete disconnect to me.

There are lots of transition areas in Prime 1.  The room leading to the Phazon Mines from Tallon Overworld, from Tallon Overworld to Magmoor Caverns, from Chozo Ruins to Magmoor Caverns, and from Tallon Overworld to the crashed frigate are a few examples.

Quote from yllib:
these are hard to pin-point, but you might think about this: (maybe I'm alone here)
for me seeing creatures being repeated on Tallon IV always make me cringe, just slightly. Why would there be an ice version of all these creatures? It's a technical question, and on Tallon IV I wasn't sold on it. On Aether, the designs hold constant enough that when I see a creature in a specific place repeated in the game I never question why it's there. It's there because I'm on Aether and... why wouldn't I see that creature again? They Subdued some of the section-specific shock value in favor of more world-specific designs.

Sounds to me like "yeah it's like this in this game, which is bad, but in the other game, it's... wait, I guess I don't have a counterargument for this."
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
Yeah, it's totally rediculous to find different types of the same creature adapted to different climates. That would be like if we had bears here on Earth that lived in cold climate instead of forrests. They'd probably be white or some dumb shit, mirite?
They're not white, each strand of fur is hollow with air inside, which is a great insulator. teach

Their skin is actually black, iirc.
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING MY POINT.
Edit history:
TheGreenManalishi: 2010-03-15 04:58:28 pm
TheGreenManalishi: 2010-03-15 04:58:27 pm
Oh sorry, did I forget to add the 10 HEAPS OF MOTHERFUCKING IRONY to that post?

Maybe I should have used more emoticons aiwebs_017
Indie Lover
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
They're not white, each strand of fur is hollow with air inside, which is a great insulator. teach

Their skin is actually black, iirc.


man, you don't know how MUCH this explains...

we should rename then for black bears with hollowed fur?
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Quote from yllib:
Fair enough. I liked the things you disliked, apparently.

Yeah, pretty much. I was just laying out how it all worked, or didn't work I guess, in my head.
Quote from Gamma_Metroid:
There are lots of transition areas in Prime 1.  The room leading to the Phazon Mines from Tallon Overworld, from Tallon Overworld to Magmoor Caverns, from Chozo Ruins to Magmoor Caverns, and from Tallon Overworld to the crashed frigate are a few examples.

Definitely. Completely obvious ones. Maybe that's another reason I preferred mp2's world. Before I got somewhere, any hints at what was coming were subtle and thought out. Not just a chunk of ice, for example.
Quote from Gamma_Metroid:
Sounds to me like "yeah it's like this in this game, which is bad, but in the other game, it's... wait, I guess I don't have a counterargument for this."

Nice comprehension, bro.
I'll put it simpler.
Subtlety.
Subtlety.

all it comes down too. Most of you find it boring, I find it intriguing.
When we're talking about the artistic value of something, all it is-- is opinion. I'm not posting because I want you all to change your mind and agree, I'm posting because defending mp2 gives me even more appreciation for both games. So when I can't give a solid reason all I can do is try and explain the game's impact on me by comparing it to the original, which almost always overshadows it. I enjoy this shit. You saying the repeated creatures are in both games and even repeated creatures from prime 1 is a great point, but I can still think they worked better with the overall atmosphere in prime 2.
Quote from Toozin:
Yeah, it's totally rediculous to find different types of the same creature adapted to different climates. That would be like if we had bears here on Earth that lived in cold climate instead of forrests. They'd probably be white or some dumb shit, mirite?

I lol'd
but I'm not conceding to your point until you find me a tropical fucking penguin.
wait....
never mind.
Indie Lover
Quote from Chozoid:
yeah there obviously was a Chozo prescence in Phendrana and Magmoor, as there are Chozo statues.  Also I think it makes more sense that Magmoor is underground, as it would be closer to the planet's core, thus being hotter.


but there are a open area in magmoor, and i don't remeber going up or down too much on magmoor caverns... it not that deep if you consider that...
ANKOKU
Quote from Toozin:
Yeah, it's totally rediculous to find different types of the same creature adapted to different climates. That would be like if we had bears here on Earth that lived in cold climate instead of forrests. They'd probably be white or some dumb shit, mirite?
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
They're not white, each strand of fur is hollow with air inside, which is a great insulator. teach

Their skin is actually black, iirc.
Quote from Toozin:
THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING MY POINT.
Quote from TheGreenManalishi:
Oh sorry, did I forget to add the 10 HEAPS OF MOTHERFUCKING IRONY to that post?

Maybe I should have used more emoticons aiwebs_017


TOTALLY made reading this thread, and the walls of text inside it, worth it.
One shall stand, one shall ball.
Quote from yllib:
but I'm not conceding to your point until you find me a tropical fucking penguin

Oh, hello there. Can this topic be about penguins now? Cause I like penguins, they rule.
Oh cool. Didn't know they lived THAT far north. Heh, I was looking for a good picture of the Madagascar penguins (From the movie/show) to put here, but that works so much better because it's real.

But yes, penguins are indeed awesome.