New SM 100% World Record on SDA

2011-09-12 11:57:38 am

Bangaa Bishop

Isn't there one thing that's for-sure faster though? Isn't the trick to escape the bomb guardian room only possible on PAL?

Behemoth

2011-09-12 12:29:31 pm

That's right. For console it's only possible on PAL, but it only saves between 20 - 25 seconds. Decent amount of time but no where near enough to keep it close to NTSC times.

Quietus

2011-09-12 12:57:33 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Tahngarthor: There's no easy way to test it exactly, but numerous runs have been made just for comparison purposes, and over the course of a 100% run, NTSC still comes up as 2-3 minutes faster. It's just a load of tiny bits adding up to make the game quicker over all. As Behemoth mentioned (him and Reeve did a lot of testing), even with the Torizo skip on PAL, all you're doing is lessening the gap between the two.

Red Scarlet

2011-09-13 05:03:26 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I was told that the game runs slower (50hz?) yet Samus runs/moves around at the same speed, so that's some amount of 'free' movement on the PAL version (like the slower game speed and Samus's same run speed is like an extra 10 FPS for PAL). Is that true?

And if going by precedent, just look at the Metroid Prime page. It has best time for NTSC and PAL, and many other categories. I don't think completely erasing a category (100% NTSC/North American release) when there is at least one thing that cannot be done in that version compared to the new record time is a good idea.

(what? can post stuff not logged in? weird. Please delete the other post of this, thanks)

TheOthin

2011-09-13 05:05:56 pm

I assume the consensus is that the NTSC version doesn't have enough disadvantages compared to PAL to make a distinct category, while PAL has enough disadvantages compared to NTSC. That's just a guess, though; I don't know much about version differences, and if that Samus run speed thing is true, it might render the judgment questionable.

072

2011-09-13 06:57:10 pm

coral to complement blue

Pretty much everything on Behemoth's list of differences is a consequence of her run speed being adjusted to match the framerate but everything else not. There are a few advantages that come with it (like the Torizo skip) but they are not enough to change the fact that PAL is pretty much the exact same thing, only with a higher end time.

I don't know if you are aware of this or not (or if it makes a difference to you at all), but both of what were the current NTSC runs at SDA were obsoleted years ago by Hotarubi but were never submitted. So the SM page there is kind of a "who cares" for many people now. And of course SDA has changed a lot. It doesn't try to claim that it is a WR site anymore. So yeah, I know it's stupid to try to tell you "you shouldn't be upset about the decision" like it could somehow change your mind but that's what I think.

Reeve

2011-09-13 07:41:46 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

I was told that the game runs slower (50hz?) yet Samus runs/moves around at the same speed, so that's some amount of 'free' movement on the PAL version (like the slower game speed and Samus's same run speed is like an extra 10 FPS for PAL). Is that true?

I don't know anything about this conversion (NTSC to PAL) stuff, but iirc the PAL version is 50 frames per second. If you run the game in an emulator, and use the ram stuff you'll see that when the frame timer reaches 50, one second is added in the timer that counts the seconds. In the NTSC version it adds one second when the frame timer reaches 60, that means that NTSC is 60fps. If you think about it, i don't know if it works this way, if Samus runs 6 tiles in 60 frames for NTSC and she has to run the same 6 tiles in 50 frames, so she will have to run faster, right? Cause she will have less time.

Tahngarthor

Edit history:

Tahngarthor: 2011-09-13 09:03:54 pm

2011-09-13 08:58:32 pm

Bangaa Bishop

-edit- errr wait. I'm stupid.

Red Scarlet

2011-09-14 07:45:02 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

I still don't think erasing a category does anything a favor. Hotarubi could get a :20 100% but without submitting it, that doesn't mean much of anything. If he got a :54 I'd by all means want that to be up there to watch.

Quietus

2011-09-14 08:46:17 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I don't think it has much to do with the category, but rather the huge time difference. An equivalent run to yours on PAL would have been around the 58- or 59-minute mark. To beat the time by such a margin would be one thing, but to do it on the slower version of the game (time wise) means that the run has been obsoleted, whichever way you look at it. How far would you push the time to keep the run? If the NTSC best 100% was 1:15, should it still be kept? I don't think so. The only reason two are ever kept is when the NTSC run is maxed out, and it's impossible for PAL to compete, so the PAL time is also allowed. If a PAL time beats an NTSC time, then the PAL run is obviously the faster run.

Behemoth

Edit history:

Behemoth: 2011-09-14 09:39:09 pm

Behemoth: 2011-09-14 09:29:34 pm

Behemoth: 2011-09-14 09:28:14 pm

Behemoth: 2011-09-14 09:27:41 pm

2011-09-14 09:25:37 pm

Quote from Red Scarlet:

. Hotarubi could get a :20 100% but without submitting it, that doesn't mean much of anything. If he got a :54 I'd by all means want that to be up there to watch.

Actually it still means a lot. Just because something isn't submitted to SDA doesn't mean it's not legit. What's important is that a runner puts his name out there and his accomplishments on the internet somehow. In fact it's good we discovered his 0:50 run because without it we wouldn't still be striving to take the game further. We used his run as a benchmark for a a few years and improved ourselves as runners. This is where we have got to now

Red Scarlet

Edit history:

Red Scarlet: 2011-09-15 02:46:43 am

Red Scarlet: 2011-09-15 02:46:04 am

Red Scarlet: 2011-09-15 02:45:35 am

2011-09-15 02:44:13 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

If a PAL time beats an NTSC time, it's the fastest time and fastest PAL time, not the fastest NTSC time, which now isn't even a submittable category here from its removal. Now in order to compete, it's the PAL version only.

And by 'submit', it was 'make available'. If someone just says they have a time, that doesn't mean anything. So Hotarubi actually uploading a :50 does mean something. I still see no reason for the CATEGORY to be removed. It's not about my run being removed.

Oh well, Nate would've done something by now if it would've gone back up. Have fun playing PAL Super Metroid, guys. Congrats on your :48, Behemoth.

MilesSMB

2011-09-15 02:47:20 am

Quote from Red Scarlet:

If a PAL time beats an NTSC time, it's the fastest time and fastest PAL time, not the fastest NTSC time, which now isn't even a submittable category here from its removal. Now in order to compete, it's the PAL version only.

Uh... What? If someone beats the current PAL time on NTSC, then that NTSC run can be posted. It's not like beating a segmented run with a SS means that segmented runs can never be submitted again.

Red Scarlet

2011-09-15 02:52:22 am

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Deleting categories is stupid, that's what I've been saying. SDA is totally different from when I went there, so whatever works there now. See you guys.

sabata2

2011-09-15 03:42:54 am

ANKOKU

Oooh, they deleted a line of text on the game's display page.

Quit whining and start buffing up your next NTSC run. You can STILL submit it if you beat the PAL time (Which shouldn't be that hard if you follow THE SAME path), and it WILL be accepted after it's verified.

Honest to god you're making a mountain out of a pimple, and it's coming off as you being pissed about your run being taken down, no matter how much you "type" otherwise.

F-Bomb

2011-09-15 04:11:17 am

The Bomb that says it all .!..

From all the discussion on the NTSC speedrun thread there will be a new run submitted before too long, and then there will be a NTSC and a PAL category. So all this discussion is getting a bit pointless.

Quietus

2011-09-15 07:09:08 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

As mentioned above, if somebody copies this exact run on the NTSC version, it'll be accepted, as it'll have a faster time.

Scarlet, as much as your run was inspirational for tonnes of runners and players alike, I too think it sounds like

Quote from sabata2:

you being pissed about your run being taken down

Behemoth

2011-09-15 08:24:04 am

Quote from Red Scarlet:

Deleting categories is stupid, that's what I've been saying. SDA is totally different from when I went there, so whatever works there now. See you guys.

Nobodies deleting any categories. If someone submits a NTSC run in the future, and it's good enough, it'll be there

lxx4xNx6xxl

Edit history:

lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-09-15 11:03:24 am

lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-09-15 11:02:10 am

2011-09-15 11:00:15 am

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

First off Behemoth Congratulations!!!

Quote from Behemoth:

Nobodies deleting any categories. When Forensics submits his NTSC run in the future, it'll be there.

Also Behemoth I fixed the Grammatical error in your post look at the quote box!!! I've been playing really shitty lately, but I'll get out of this stupid slump soon. Also you should submit your 14% and you Any% as well. There's no harm in having your 0:32 Any% up for now until you get a 0:31.

Behemoth

2011-09-15 11:18:23 am

Lmao. I was going to write something along those lines but I thought I'd write something a bit more general instead to get my point across.

Man I tell you I've had very little motivation to play the game at all myself. I uploaded another video recently of another game which is taking slight priority right now, but I really should get my ass into gear and play a bit of Super. Luckily I don't lose my feeling for the game easily so it's not a problem on that front. I think I'll try and submit my 14% the weekend after next though.

072

2011-09-15 12:18:22 pm

coral to complement blue

Quote from sabata2:

(Which shouldn't be that hard if you follow THE SAME path)

So where is your run, then?

@RS:

I think you are still misunderstanding a few things. Just in case: NTSC and PAL are still separate categories. People have been comparing it to segmented/SS runs. It works the same way if you remember: If an SS run beats or ties a segmented one, the SS replaces it. But an SS run can only be obsoleted by another SS run. So when Forensics finishes his NTSC run, it will go up alongside Behemoth's and there will be two categories again.

About Hotarubi's run: I guess I wasn't very clear but he did upload it for people to see. You can watch it here if you want. (But I think you should watch Behemoth's run instead!)

MSDS3170

2011-09-15 02:00:23 pm

Just wanted to say congratulations again to Behemoth! I have been following your progress since the beginning (posting under my old name, "The Mud Shark") and it's very inspiring to watch you realize and achieve your goals. Great job man!!

BioSpark

Edit history:

BioSpark: 2011-09-15 02:38:03 pm

2011-09-15 02:37:58 pm

well sda is completely retarded anyway so ...

sabata2

2011-09-15 05:54:58 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from 072:

Quote from sabata2:

(Which shouldn't be that hard if you follow THE SAME path)

So where is your run, then?

Never got used to SM's controls and I'm not a hardcore speedrunner.
I just understand the differences between PAL and NTSC SM in this case. :P

lxx4xNx6xxl

Edit history:

lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-09-15 06:10:56 pm

lxx4xNx6xxl: 2011-09-15 06:08:11 pm

2011-09-15 06:05:43 pm

My name is 4N6/Forensics.

Quote from sabata2:

Quote from 072:

Quote from sabata2:

(Which shouldn't be that hard if you follow THE SAME path)

So where is your run, then?

Never got used to SM's controls and I'm not a hardcore speedrunner.
I just understand the differences between PAL and NTSC SM in this case. :P

What hes saying is is lots of things have changed not just route. It will take about a year to develop consistency with all the new tricks and strategies that we developed. Honestly saying it shouldn't be that hard to do is equivalent to slapping God in the face.