New Gameplay Trailer

TheGreenManalishi

Edit history:

TheGreenManalishi: 2010-04-06 03:02:38 pm

2010-04-06 03:02:29 pm

Just because there's speedboost doesn't mean there has to be shinesparking. I'd be pretty happy without it.

arkarian

2010-04-06 03:16:53 pm

red chamber dream

shake to shinespark? sounds good to me.

Quote from J_SNAKE:

Quote from arkarian:

there's just one less shoulder bumper - big deal.

There are still 3 less buttons, just to correct and point out the advantage you are not aware of.

what, l3 and r3? last gen, those buttons were used for shit like crouching and were mainly just duplicates of other button functions. nowadays of course they're actually useful, but rarely did developers take advantage of them in the ps2 era.

sabata2

2010-04-06 03:21:30 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from arkarian:

what, l3 and r3? last gen, those buttons were used for shit like crouching and were mainly just duplicates of other button functions. nowadays of course they're actually useful, but rarely did developers take advantage of them in the ps2 era.

I'm pretty sure he means the Black and White buttons next to the ABXY ones.

arkarian

2010-04-06 03:25:06 pm

red chamber dream

i was comparing it mainly to the ps2 controller, since all j-snake talks about is mgs. but yeah, xbox had those buttons and everyone hated them so microsoft removed them for the 360. cool.

sabata2

2010-04-06 03:26:54 pm

ANKOKU

I'll be damned, you're right. I guess he must mean L3 and R3 since he's arguing newest gen.

arkarian

2010-04-06 03:31:55 pm

red chamber dream

well the dualshock 2 has l3 and r3 and i assume the original xbox controller does too, they just weren't very relevant back then.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-04-06 03:54:18 pm

Probably moreso than on the DS2, cause the old xbox only had two shoulder buttons.

J_SNAKE

2010-04-06 05:57:57 pm

I am just saying that prime-controls with their heavy limitations are designed the way they are designed only because of the limitations of the gamecube-controller. Your stuff about what existet and what not existed is irrelevant for this contemplation. Fact is, a gamecube-controller is not a ps2 or a xbox360-controller.

Chozoid

2010-04-06 08:11:59 pm

@ kesvalk Yes, unfortunately, there will almost certainly be a Tourian 3.0. As well as a Mother Brain 3.0 Hopefully a Kraid 3.0.

Toozin

2010-04-06 08:52:59 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Agh, I can't believe I'm doing this...

Actually, his point was that Prime could have EASILY been made a standard shooter on a Gamecube pad. GCN had a ton of FPS that controlled exactly the same as their PS2/Xbox counterparts. Timesplitters 2/3, XIII, that damned bullshit Turok, all of those shitty James Bond games that weren't Goldeneye including the one that was called Goldeneye... just a few examples off the top of my head. Prime controlled that way because that's the game they wanted to make.

tomatobob

2010-04-06 09:11:18 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from J_SNAKE:

Fact is, a gamecube-controller is not a ps2 or a xbox360-controller.

Ladies and gentlemen, J-SNAKE.

arkarian

2010-04-06 10:49:45 pm

red chamber dream

what toozin said.

Chozoid

2010-04-06 11:10:37 pm

If retro wanted Prime to be a shooter, they would have made it with the C-stick as a pointer. But Prime ISN't a shooter.

tomatobob

2010-04-06 11:48:33 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

No it's a shooter. Just one that puts more emphasis on adventuring.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:24:05 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:22:44 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:22:01 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:21:36 am

2010-04-07 04:18:24 am

Quote from Toozin:

his point was that Prime could have EASILY been made a standard shooter on a Gamecube pad.

No, my point exactly was that it could not easily include shooter-controls(which would be more advanced and suited) on a gamecube-pad. In easy english: simply because you would expect shit, like you said yourself.

arkarian

2010-04-07 04:27:49 am

red chamber dream

it could have done that just fine. there are plenty of fps games for gamecube that work well.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:46:40 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:43:46 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:42:11 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:41:47 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 04:40:46 am

2010-04-07 04:39:59 am

I am letting the discussion aside gc-fps are good or not but in Prime you want to quickly change between beams and visor-types and quickly access the map. You would achieve it through a too indirect or unaesthetic input then since you would try to compensate the lack of g-pad-ressources. You need to see the whole package, not just one separated aspect. Just saying that with the xbox360-controller this problem would be solved just fine and in addition you could move in a natural manner without poor artificial limitations. Thats the difference.

Quietus

2010-04-07 04:51:30 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I think you just need to accept that not all games have perfect controls. We understand that you're saying they could be better, but that's an eternal argument, and could probably be applied to any aspect of any game - 'this could be better'. Players accept it as part of the game. If you really can't accept the controls, then don't play a game. Ultimately, Prime, whether it's controls are great or not, was, and remains, massively popular, and players are more than happy to use the control method as is.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 06:05:54 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 06:05:21 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 06:05:02 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 06:04:28 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 05:52:39 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 05:51:17 am

2010-04-07 05:45:14 am

I have just explained that I dont think Prime
was designed intentionally this way but only because of the heavy g-pad limitations.

sorry to go off-topic, just want to ensure you know my opinion about prime:

I see no substance(except exploration) in plaing it.
It features no gameplay-depth aside exploration.
I just can play it through in sleep in one and the same one-dimensional manner.
Also it is designed with an amateur quality regarding artistic/aesthetical control and with a lot of aesthetical fallacies:
One example is that in 2D the moving of a simple organism in a plane around a block
seems natural but if you are in 3D and see the creature fly like a plane around it
while still keeping 2D-movement, it just doesnt feel natural.
It feels cheap (and it is cheap).

There is hardly decent quality in visual and artistic design.
The environment often looks and feels shallow and dumbed down for kids.
The enemies look like clumsy plastic-figures (they just managed to make Samus good).
Most of the music is not immersive at all. Even if it tries to create some tension it
feels like dumbed down for kids without any substance.

I am shocked how people disagree on this because it prevents some devs from
learning from failures. Thus they will spam the market with lower qualities and
everyone gets accustomed to it without realising what "shit" he is consuming.

I hope the main reason for Primes success was the name "Metroid" in it.

In general it is shocking to see how many games are getting a rating over 90 today. It shows how shallow and one-dimensional people are getting. Just saying.

I have just explained that I dont think Prime
was designed intentionally this way but only because of the heavy g-pad limitations.

sorry to go off-topic, just want to ensure you know my opinion about prime:

I see no substance(except exploration) in plaing it. 
It features no gameplay-depth aside exploration. 
I just can play it through in sleep in one and the same one-dimensional manner.
Also it is designed with an amateur quality regarding artistic/aesthetical control and with a lot of aesthetical fallacies: 
One example is that in 2D the moving of a simple organism in a plane around a block
seems natural but if you are in 3D and see the creature fly like a plane around it
while still keeping 2D-movement, it just doesnt feel natural.
It feels cheap (and it is cheap).

There is hardly decent quality in visual and artistic design.
The environment often looks and feels shallow and dumbed down for kids.
The enemies look like clumsy plastic-figures (they just managed to make Samus good).
Most of the music is not immersive at all. Even if it tries to create some tension it 
feels like dumbed down for kids without any substance.

I am shocked how people disagree on this because it prevents some devs from 
learning from failures. Thus they will spam the market with lower qualities and
everyone gets accustomed to it without realising what "shit" he is consuming.

I hope the main reason for Primes success was the name "Metroid" in it.

In general it is shocking to see how many games are getting a rating over 90 today. It shows how shallow and one-dimensional people are getting. Just saying.

tomatobob

2010-04-07 06:23:26 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Quietus:

I think you just need to accept that not all games have perfect controls.

Prime did.

sabata2

2010-04-07 06:29:23 am

ANKOKU

Quote from tomatobob:

Quote from Quietus:

I think you just need to accept that not all games have perfect controls.

Prime did.

Simply asking the question "Can I aim while moving?" breaks that statement (to which Trilogy fixes). Not that I disagree. Primes controls were at the point I didn't see a reason to try to improve them, there was stuff that could have been done to improve them.

Ya see, we're all in the first half of my last sentence, where as J_Snake seems to refuse anything that doesn't implement the second half to the point it can no longer be performed.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-04-07 07:33:35 am

Quote from tomatobob:

Quote from Quietus:

I think you just need to accept that not all games have perfect controls.

Prime did.

Quoted For FUCKING Truth

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:04:06 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:01:41 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:00:02 am

2010-04-07 07:41:04 am

They were good from a layout-perspective, but not good for gaming-potential.

The problem is the point of view. Many are looking at the perspective that
Prime-controls suited the gameplay well(so they think everything is fine)
instead looking at it at a more reasonable way.
It is that gameplay was limited and adapted to the controls first place
and not the other way round. Basic Mechanics and Controls is what planned out first place, before final
game-logic-implementation. That is one piece of example how game-design-process works.

So of course you will say "I dont know what your problem is but I could play the game
just fine" since challenge and game-logic had to be "dumbed down" to the controls.
Yes, I also have no problem playing the game, but it is not the point.

The point is that if you watch the things from this view you will quickly get an
understanding what to expect and what not to expect in the game.
I knew from the beginning that the game plays "automated" without any organic
interaction-depth and I never was wrong. It is a bit like watching
a movie where you cannot do much wrong since too much is automated with all the same
obvious and premade gamelogic-patterns. There is hardly variety in acting and interacting (except exploration-aspects).

I understand that some people like movies with a small bit of interaction but
some of us expect more from a Metroid-game.

I am actually someone who wants to play and be able to grow in a game when I am playing a game
rather than watching a movie. If you still want to grow in Prime you have to generate
a challenge like speed-running yourself since the game wont natively provide
any challenge (thats pretty much what many of you are doing).

So if you just like relaxing and enjoy watching Prime then it is OK, it might be
your taste and attitude, but it would be fair to also understand my point of view.

They were good from a layout-perspective, but not good for gaming-potential.

The problem is the point of view. Many are looking at the perspective that 
Prime-controls suited the gameplay well(so they think everything is fine)
instead looking at it at a more reasonable way. 
It is that gameplay was limited and adapted to the controls first place
and not the other way round. Basic Mechanics and Controls is what planned out first place, before final
game-logic-implementation. That is one piece of example how game-design-process works.

So of course you will say "I dont know what your problem is but I could play the game 
just fine" since challenge and game-logic had to be "dumbed down" to the controls.
Yes, I also have no problem playing the game, but it is not the point.

The point is that if you watch the things from this view you will quickly get an
understanding what to expect and what not to expect in the game.
I knew from the beginning that the game plays "automated" without any organic 
interaction-depth and I never was wrong. It is a bit like watching
a movie where you cannot do much wrong since too much is automated with all the same
obvious and premade gamelogic-patterns. There is hardly variety in acting and interacting (except exploration-aspects).

I understand that some people like movies with a small bit of interaction but
some of us expect more from a Metroid-game.

I am actually someone who wants to play and be able to grow in a game when I am playing a game
rather than watching a movie. If you still want to grow in Prime you have to generate
a challenge like speed-running yourself since the game wont natively provide 
any challenge (thats pretty much what many of you are doing).

So if you just like relaxing and enjoy watching Prime then it is OK, it might be
your taste and attitude, but it would be fair to also understand my point of view.

Quietus

Edit history:

Quietus: 2010-04-07 07:54:02 am

2010-04-07 07:53:27 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from tomatobob:

Quote from Quietus:

I think you just need to accept that not all games have perfect controls.

Prime did.

I could say that while it's probably attempting to poke fun at my statement, it only serves to reinforce it if you can only give one example. Razz

I just don't understand the argument at all. You may as well just extemexaggeramagnify it, and say that all games that have been created so far have crap controls, because the controllers of the future will be our minds, so that makes current 'button and stick' setups so cumbersome and useless. That still doesn't stop us playing with them now, and enjoying the games as much as we do with those controls.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:38:42 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:38:17 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:26:27 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-07 08:22:38 am

2010-04-07 08:21:27 am

Quote from Quietus:

I just don't understand the argument at all.

That is true.

Quote from Quietus:

all games that have been created so far have crap controls, because the controllers of the future will be our minds

It is not true. Many games have been crap because way too many devs are not aware of the importance that the input device is your direct connection to
the virtual world. It compares to a car. You can have the best car but your car wont drive well with crappy designed tires. They are the direct connection
to your street. You have to adapt the wires to the street you want your car drive on. If you dont have the appropriate tires for the street then dont let your car
drive on it but design it for another road. Same translates to games, but I must say some people still enjoy to drive the car, even if it is not adapted to the road, simply because they urgently want to go through the road and see no alternative in road-choosing.

Btw, the best input devices will still be something mechanical like a xbox360-pad, even in 1000 years, but surely not your unreliable mind or similar:)

[quote="Quietus"]I just don't understand the argument at all.[/quote] That is true.

[quote="Quietus"]all games that have been created so far have crap controls, because the controllers of the future will be our minds[/quote] 
It is not true. Many games have been crap because way too many devs are not aware of the importance that the input device is your direct connection to 
the virtual world. It compares to a car. You can have the best car but your car wont drive well with crappy designed tires. They are the direct connection
to your street. You have to adapt the wires to the street you want your car drive on. If you dont have the appropriate tires for the street then dont let your car
drive on it but design it for another road. Same translates to games, but I must say some people still enjoy to drive the car, even if it is not adapted to the road, simply because they urgently want to go through the road and see no alternative in road-choosing.

Btw, the best input devices will still be something mechanical like a xbox360-pad, even in 1000 years, but surely not your unreliable mind or similar:)