New Gameplay Trailer

tomatobob

2010-04-05 12:58:42 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Wario Land 6 is a fake inorganic experience that would have been good if it had 360 controls.

arkarian

2010-04-05 01:18:53 am

red chamber dream

yes of course. obviously, it evinces the fact that the user's perception over linear time changes laterally to the organic, comprehensive experience of naturally occurring advancement due to tightly integrated control schema which exist in relative persistent states over the course of the gameplay experience while incorporating aspects of stealth, action, and story in an intricately complex interwoven fashion akin to the inherently primal basis of the human subconscious altogether, allowing for a heuristically tactile and animate input control method leagues behind the competition.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-05 07:02:51 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-05 07:02:33 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-05 06:44:34 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-05 06:42:45 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-05 06:40:06 am

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-05 06:36:53 am

2010-04-05 06:35:00 am

Um guys, the things are actually simpler. I give a simple example:
In Prime you cannot walk and aim at the same time, in shooters you can. It is not that Prime tries to be different from shooters in this aspect but the gamecube-controller is lacking certain qualities. And on top of that the speed of your aiming is not linear but approximates less or more an asymptotical progression. I know why devs did it: some sort of "since everything relies on auto-aim anyway, lets make the suit-feeling-style robotic, heavy and cool". The upside is the cool suit-feeling-style but the downside is that depth of action is supported to be annihilated that way. If gamecube had a xbox360-like controller you could run and aim at the same time. It is nothing esotheric, it is all real-life facts. The difference is only to be aware of that.

But coming to Other M. I said long before a Metroid game in 3D will be better in third-person first place(first person addtional for exploration etc.) and Samus is tending to be a versatile Ninja. There you have it. Like you see my understanding and view was no ivory tower. But when it comes to real-time action/interaction-depth I doubt someone will live up to the level I envision, not only but also because the input device is one of most relevant things.
At least Other M will feaure a concept of timing-components so that there are still a bit of skill-requirements to build some tension.

Um guys, the things are actually simpler. I give a simple example: 
In Prime you cannot walk and aim at the same time, in shooters you can. It is not that Prime tries to be different from shooters in this aspect but the gamecube-controller is lacking certain qualities. And on top of that the speed of your aiming is not linear but approximates less or more an asymptotical progression. I know why devs did it: some sort of "since everything relies on auto-aim anyway, lets make the suit-feeling-style robotic, heavy and cool". The upside is the cool suit-feeling-style but the downside is that depth of action is supported to be annihilated that way. If gamecube had a xbox360-like controller you could run and aim at the same time. It is nothing esotheric, it is all real-life facts. The difference is only to be aware of that.

But coming to Other M. I said long before a Metroid game in 3D will be better in third-person first place(first person addtional for exploration etc.) and Samus is tending to be a versatile Ninja. There you have it. Like you see my understanding and view was no ivory tower. But when it comes to real-time action/interaction-depth I doubt someone will live up to the level I envision, not only but also because the input device is one of most relevant things. 
At least Other M will feaure a concept of timing-components so that there are still a bit of skill-requirements to build some tension.

Toozin

2010-04-05 08:28:03 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

So if the Gamecube had exactly one more button, they would build an entirely different control scheme?

Fuck, I responded, didn't I?

Prime Hunter

2010-04-05 09:32:30 am

Not so easy is it?

J_SNAKE

2010-04-05 09:54:36 am

Quote from Toozin:

So if the Gamecube had exactly one more button, they would build an entirely different control scheme?

I see you are not on the subject. xbox360-controller has 3 more buttons. But quantity of buttons alone is nothing. Important is how many of them are intuitivly accessible at the same time. And in addition the right analog-stick of the gamecube-controller is not suited pretty well for organic aiming but more for digital switching like you can find in Prime or Zelda-games. But the xbox360-controller does a good job at both, at organic acting which separates moving from the aiming and at the amount of buttons you can push at the same time, these are 4 without moving your fingers from the analog-sticks and even 5 if you dedicate your right thumb to situations where the right analog stick is not required. Not that you freakingly always need it but still it mesuares the potential of the controller well. Play Modern Warfare 2 on the xbox360 for example, it makes a good use of the controller and watch how fluidly and multitasked you can play the game without even noticing it. Then take a game-cube shooter. You cannot act on the same level as in MW2.

[quote="Toozin"]So if the Gamecube had exactly one more button, they would build an entirely different control scheme?[/quote] I see you are not on the subject. xbox360-controller has 3 more buttons. But quantity of buttons alone is nothing. Important is how many of them are intuitivly accessible at the same time. And in addition the right analog-stick of the gamecube-controller is not suited pretty well for organic aiming but more for digital switching like you can find in Prime or Zelda-games. But the xbox360-controller does a good job at both, at organic acting which separates moving from the aiming and at the amount of buttons you can push at the same time, these are 4 without moving your fingers from the analog-sticks and even 5 if you dedicate your right thumb to situations where the right analog stick is not required. Not that you freakingly always need it but still it mesuares the potential of the controller well. Play Modern Warfare 2 on the xbox360 for example, it makes a good use of the controller and watch how fluidly and multitasked you can play the game without even noticing it. Then take a game-cube shooter. You cannot act on the same level as in MW2.

Toozin

2010-04-05 11:49:33 am

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Protip: The 360 controller didn't exist when Prime was made. The comparison you'd have to make is with the original Xbox controller, which is possibly the shittiest controller ever shat out of a shitty controller machine.

In any case I'm gonna close this can of worms and stop talking to you now.

J_SNAKE

2010-04-05 01:54:41 pm

Quote from Toozin:

The 360 controller didn't exist when Prime was made.

It still doesnt exist on nintendo-consoles. You are missing the point in my argumentation.

Toozin

Edit history:

Toozin: 2010-04-05 02:05:23 pm

2010-04-05 02:01:51 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

Your argumentation is silly. That's like arguing Top Gun on the NES would be so much better with some analogue controls in there. Well, they didn't fucking exist yet, cowboy.

Okay, NOW I'm done talking to you.

J_SNAKE

2010-04-05 02:29:39 pm

Quote from Toozin:

That's like arguing Top Gun on the NES would be so much better with some analogue controls in there.

It would be better with better controls, sure.

But you must not confuse things. In general it doesnt mean that the more analog, the better(8-way aiming games also have a good potential). It depends what the game is trying to base its roots on. Top Gun is an example for a game that tries to go over the roots of nes. That is the problem with such games, it was not the time for complex and serious 3D action. While Tetris perfectly keeps digital roots, one reason why it is pretty aesthetical.

So yes, Top Gun would be better with more advanced controls, and Prime would be richer with xbox-360 controller since they potentially are trying to be that way, they based their roots on it. But that is not all to it. You cannot just improve the controls and remain the game-logic unchanged. You have to exceed the game-logic limitations you had to make in order to keep up with limited control-possibilities.

[quote="Toozin"]That's like arguing Top Gun on the NES would be so much better with some analogue controls in there.[/quote] It would be better with better controls, sure.

But you must not confuse things. In general it doesnt mean that the more analog, the better(8-way aiming games also have a good potential). It depends what the game is trying to base its roots on. Top Gun is an example for a game that tries to go over the roots of nes. That is the problem with such games, it was not the time for complex and serious 3D action. While Tetris perfectly keeps digital roots, one reason why it is pretty aesthetical.

So yes, Top Gun would be better with more advanced controls, and Prime would be richer with xbox-360 controller since they potentially are trying to be that way, they based their roots on it. But that is not all to it. You cannot just improve the controls and remain the game-logic unchanged. You have to exceed the game-logic limitations you had to make in order to keep up with limited control-possibilities.

Gamma_Metroid

2010-04-05 03:43:30 pm

Quote from J_SNAKE:

In Prime you cannot walk and aim at the same time, in shooters you can.

That's okay, because Prime isn't a shooter. You don't need to except when you're in a battle, in which case you can lock on to strafe or dash.

Toozin

2010-04-05 03:46:37 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

I'm going to shift the discussion back to the trailer before this thread derails into another fruitless argument with J_SNAKE.

I'm excited about speed boost making a return but I wonder if they're gonna be able to pull off shinesparking in a 3D space. I'd be totally psyched if they pull it off though.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-04-05 03:50:23 pm

I doubt it, unless it was a capped 'super jump'-esque thing instead of the infinite thing we've seen in the past. Or they could put a roof over the entire game which, considering this is Metroid, could be for the best.

J_SNAKE

2010-04-05 04:52:09 pm

Or they could limit it to the horizontal(what they probably are going to do), would be ok for Other M.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-04-05 04:55:39 pm

In a 3D environment, it'd be lame to just have horizontal speed boost. Something along the lines of Zone of the Ender's L2 boost would work, but that game does suffer from invisible walls and ceiling.

J_SNAKE

2010-04-05 05:28:16 pm

You have to consider the difference in 3D-space and acting in Zone of the enders compared to a 3D-platformer. Horizontal shinespark makes sense because it allows to go for less tricky map-design and it is easier to handle since other M is featuring 2D-controls in third-person, not 3D.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-04-05 05:30:36 pm

I hate to agree with you, but I reckon the Wiimote will stifle Other M's potential.

arkarian

2010-04-05 06:22:28 pm

red chamber dream

there are plenty of dual-stick first-person shooters for gamecube. they work fine. not as good as the xbox 360 of course, but just as well as on the original xbox or ps2. there's just one less shoulder bumper - big deal.

sabata2

2010-04-05 06:33:50 pm

ANKOKU

What button combination would they use to initiate the shinespark though?

In all the sidescrollers it's been down. But now down will actually move you a different direction instead of making you crouch.
The only thing I can think of that might do it is the morphball button (A?).
But to do that you'd need to take your thumb off the D-Pad which would assumedly cancel the dash itself.
Maybe the B button. I don't think that has any functionality yet.

But even if they had a method of you storing the shinespark (like the sidescrollers) how would you aim? You can't forcably aim yourself diagonally like in ZM or SM, and that would leave only 2 options. The direction you're facing, or straight up.
The direction you're facing would really only be useful if you have to make a turn and don't have enough room to charge up again. The straight up would seem to be pointless in many of the areas we've seen so far. You'd either be taring through a space station making it questionable as to why certain walls stop you but others don't, or you'd be heading straight up into nothingness (the air).
The only other reason I'd see straight up as a possibility is if it's the only way to stun/hurt a boss.

What button combination would they use to initiate the shinespark though?

In all the sidescrollers it's been down. But now down will actually move you a different direction instead of making you crouch.
The only thing I can think of that might do it is the morphball button (A?).
But to do that you'd need to take your thumb off the D-Pad which would assumedly cancel the dash itself.
Maybe the B button. I don't think that has any functionality yet.

But even if they had a method of you storing the shinespark (like the sidescrollers) how would you aim? You can't forcably aim yourself diagonally like in ZM or SM, and that would leave only 2 options. The direction you're facing, or straight up.
The direction you're facing would really only be useful if you have to make a turn and don't have enough room to charge up again. The straight up would seem to be pointless in many of the areas we've seen so far. You'd either be taring through a space station making it questionable as to why certain walls stop you but others don't, or you'd be heading straight up into nothingness (the air).
The only other reason I'd see straight up as a possibility is if it's the only way to stun/hurt a boss.

Prime Hunter

2010-04-05 08:43:40 pm

When I think of a 3D shinespark I get images of Dark Samus in Echoes when she leaps up in the air, flips over, and then comes barreling at you in an energy ball. I could see something like that working where you'd run to gain enough energy, stop and hit a certain button, and then have a few seconds to point yourself in the direction you want to fly in before being launched that way. Maybe you'd have to point at the screen and wherever you're pointing is the direction the "energy ball" would point before launching itself.

Just a quick thought on it. Not sure how effective that kind of control scheme would be for this.

kesvalk

2010-04-06 04:28:07 am

Indie Lover

i am the only one that thinks we will have a tourian 2.0 in other M?

Quietus

2010-04-06 05:55:12 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Perhaps with the Shinesparks you simply build up speed, press the aim button (for first person), which acts differently because you have speed, and stores your power, and then aim where you want to, then release.

Hehe, sounds like PoV porn. winky

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-04-06 09:15:47 am

2010-04-06 09:13:44 am

Quote from arkarian:

there's just one less shoulder bumper - big deal.

There are still 3 less buttons, just to correct and point out the advantage you are not aware of.

Prime Hunter

2010-04-06 09:37:32 am

Quote from Quietus:

Perhaps with the Shinesparks you simply build up speed, press the aim button (for first person), which acts differently because you have speed, and stores your power, and then aim where you want to, then release.

More or less what I was trying to say, but in a much more efficient method.

kesvalk

2010-04-06 02:41:54 pm

Indie Lover

we will need to see how it works, i still don't have any good idea how the shinespark will work...