New Gameplay Footage (July 13th)

Kharay1977

2010-07-14 07:34:28 pm

Quote from Toozin:

Then Superman and Goku have babies.

Fixed it.

2010-07-15 12:15:24 am

I think most of them are definitely under 20 years old, and many of them didn't even play metroid until a year ago. I just think it's odd that some of them can spend so much time and effort on discussing the fiction and such without ever really getting into the games themselves.

kesvalk

Edit history:

kesvalk: 2010-07-16 03:25:19 pm

kesvalk: 2010-07-16 03:17:01 pm

2010-07-15 07:58:46 am

Indie Lover

screw the bosses! zoomer FTW!

but really, this trust thing is so strange, i would only accept it if the say that the reason for samus distrust is that she blowed up something big while under Adam as a GF trooper...

and well, samus is known to blow up planets anyway...

Opium

2010-07-15 09:07:06 am

Do you mean 'trust' ?

Quietus

2010-07-15 10:45:53 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I think it's failry clear he does. Maybe just a language thing? Or maybe just a brain fart?

Melancholy Spork

2010-07-15 01:37:01 pm

Quote from 072:

...With that last video went the last of my optimism. Though it looks like IBJ is back, so barring some fusion-esque locked door bullshit, there is probably some sequence breaking potential.

I've been creeping this board for awhile now, but I just have to say this. The idea that the easier it is to break a game, the better it is, is ass backwards and makes no sense. I only see this kind of thing in Metroid boards.

You're literally saying that the game is too well designed to be fun.

In regards to Other M... there are two things, in my mind, that will make this blow massive Crocomire balls.

1- "Metroid Fantasy IVXXIIIVII". We've all seen that Nintendo's idea of "character depth" is REALLY poorly written dialogue that makes Final Fantasy look like Shakespeare. I know the idea is to kelp the Japanese hentai wankers get off to the "emotional side" of Samus's suited-up boobies, but do we really need to completely ruin an otherwise badass character with Japanese cultural stereotypes? Until now, Samus's perceived toughness was totally based on her silence. I don't want to know that, on the inside, she's really a repressed Cloud.

2- The FPS mechanic. I don't even really need to explain. How the hell will this work? Every time you need to target an enemy, you have to stand completely still? This is especially troublesome considering how fast-paced the game looks to be. Talk about poor gameplay rhythm.

Otherwise though, I have to say this game looks pretty good. Graphics are nice (I know a lot of you bitch about the graphics, but everything you've said thus far can be completely blamed on the Wii's system capabilities. Compared to most Wii games I have, Other M looks great), gameplay is at least original and seems to flow well based on the gameplay videos, and it's nice to see a new take on the franchise after so many years of Retro bumbling around.

I have a feeling that this game will go the path of Fusion; fun for awhile, but ultimately a game most of us would rather forget ever existed.

Looking forward to meeting the slew of new fanboys/girls who masturbated to Samus's "emotional drama" and thought that meant that they were fans of the series.

[quote="072"]...With that last video went the last of my optimism. Though it looks like IBJ is back, so barring some fusion-esque locked door bullshit, there is probably some sequence breaking potential.[/quote]
I've been creeping this board for awhile now, but I just have to say this. The idea that the easier it is to break a game, the better it is, is ass backwards and makes no sense. I only see this kind of thing in Metroid boards.

You're literally saying that the game is too well designed to be fun.

In regards to Other M... there are two things, in my mind, that will make this blow massive Crocomire balls.

1- "Metroid Fantasy IVXXIIIVII". We've all seen that Nintendo's idea of "character depth" is REALLY poorly written dialogue that makes Final Fantasy look like Shakespeare. I know the idea is to kelp the Japanese hentai wankers get off to the "emotional side" of Samus's suited-up boobies, but do we really need to completely ruin an otherwise badass character with Japanese cultural stereotypes? Until now, Samus's perceived toughness was totally based on her silence. I don't want to know that, on the inside, she's really a repressed Cloud.

2- The FPS mechanic. I don't even really need to explain. How the hell will this work? Every time you need to target an enemy, you have to stand completely still? This is especially troublesome considering how fast-paced the game looks to be. Talk about poor gameplay rhythm.

Otherwise though, I have to say this game looks pretty good. Graphics are nice (I know a lot of you bitch about the graphics, but everything you've said thus far can be completely blamed on the Wii's system capabilities. Compared to most Wii games I have, Other M looks great), gameplay is at least original and seems to flow well based on the gameplay videos, and it's nice to see a new take on the franchise after so many years of Retro bumbling around.

I have a feeling that this game will go the path of Fusion; fun for awhile, but ultimately a game most of us would rather forget ever existed.

Looking forward to meeting the slew of new fanboys/girls who masturbated to Samus's "emotional drama" and thought that meant that they were fans of the series.

Kharay1977

2010-07-15 02:03:49 pm

Quote from Melancholy Spork:

You're literally saying that the game is too well designed to be fun.

An excessively linear and rigid design does not equal a good design. In fact, in my personal opinion, the best games are those that are so well designed there are numerous ways to play them. TES3: Morrowind and TES4: Oblivion are two titles that come to mind, amongst others.

You see, part of a good game design is the re-playability of a game. What fun is there in playing the same game over and over again if you know exactly what is coming next just because there is no way to deviate from the path laid out by its developers? I've said it time and time again in the past and I'll say it again, Super Metroid is, by now, 16 years old and it is still actively being played. In part due to the fact it is so very pliable (if you know how). Even now people are still finding new tricks and new ways to improve their time.

That is a good game. A game that will probably still be played another 16 years from now. Name one other semi-modern console game that has lasted as long as Super Metroid has and you will probably find it is a game that is as pliable as it.

[quote="Melancholy Spork"]You're literally saying that the game is too well designed to be fun.[/quote]An excessively linear and rigid design does not equal a good design. In fact, in my personal opinion, the best games are those that are so well designed there are numerous ways to play them. TES3: Morrowind and TES4: Oblivion are two titles that come to mind, amongst others.

You see, part of a good game design is the re-playability of a game. What fun is there in playing the same game over and over again if you know [i]exactly[/i] what is coming next just because there is no way to deviate from the path laid out by its developers? I've said it time and time again in the past and I'll say it again, Super Metroid is, by now, 16 years old and it is [i]still[/i] actively being played. In part due to the fact it is so very pliable (if you know how). Even now people are still finding new tricks and new ways to improve their time.

[i]That[/i] is a good game. A game that will probably still be played another 16 years from now. Name one other semi-modern console game that has lasted as long as Super Metroid has and you will probably find it is a game that is as pliable as it.

072

Edit history:

072: 2010-07-15 03:03:30 pm

2010-07-15 03:02:53 pm

coral to complement blue

Quote from Melancholy Spork:

the easier it is to break a game, the better it is

I never said that. I still think the game is going to be terrible even if you can sequence break.

Melancholy Spork

2010-07-15 03:03:47 pm

Quote from Kharay1977:

Quote from Melancholy Spork:

You're literally saying that the game is too well designed to be fun.

An excessively linear and rigid design does not equal a good design. In fact, in my personal opinion, the best games are those that are so well designed there are numerous ways to play them. TES3: Morrowind and TES4: Oblivion are two titles that come to mind, amongst others.

You see, part of a good game design is the re-playability of a game. What fun is there in playing the same game over and over again if you know exactly what is coming next just because there is no way to deviate from the path laid out by its developers? I've said it time and time again in the past and I'll say it again, Super Metroid is, by now, 16 years old and it is still actively being played. In part due to the fact it is so very pliable (if you know how). Even now people are still finding new tricks and new ways to improve their time.

That is a good game. A game that will probably still be played another 16 years from now. Name one other semi-modern console game that has lasted as long as Super Metroid has and you will probably find it is a game that is as pliable as it.

Re-playability is an element of good game design, sure, but it's not an automatic ticket to industry stardom and it's very possible for a game with low re-playability to still be good. I can think of a billion examples of excellent games with literally zero replayability- Bioshock, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Dead Space, etc. All great games, but there is no way to deviate from the path the developers set for you. Sure, you can go for the achievements or maybe pick up a few extra items, but for the most part, they're far from Metroid-like design. Doesn't stop them from being great games, and I've played through them all several times with undiminished enjoyment.

...and honestly, I don't see how Super Metroid is an example of a game that intentionally allows you to deviate from the developer's intended path. The only Metroid game with built-in SBs is Zero Mission. What you're talking about is breaking a game. I just find it ironic that you're disappointed that Other M appears to be well programmed.

[quote="Kharay1977"][quote="Melancholy Spork"]You're literally saying that the game is too well designed to be fun.[/quote]An excessively linear and rigid design does not equal a good design. In fact, in my personal opinion, the best games are those that are so well designed there are numerous ways to play them. TES3: Morrowind and TES4: Oblivion are two titles that come to mind, amongst others.

You see, part of a good game design is the re-playability of a game. What fun is there in playing the same game over and over again if you know [i]exactly[/i] what is coming next just because there is no way to deviate from the path laid out by its developers? I've said it time and time again in the past and I'll say it again, Super Metroid is, by now, 16 years old and it is [i]still[/i] actively being played. In part due to the fact it is so very pliable (if you know how). Even now people are still finding new tricks and new ways to improve their time.

[i]That[/i] is a good game. A game that will probably still be played another 16 years from now. Name one other semi-modern console game that has lasted as long as Super Metroid has and you will probably find it is a game that is as pliable as it.[/quote]
Re-playability is an element of good game design, sure, but it's not an automatic ticket to industry stardom and it's very possible for a game with low re-playability to still be good. I can think of a billion examples of excellent games with literally zero replayability- Bioshock, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Dead Space, etc. All great games, but there is no way to deviate from the path the developers set for you. Sure, you can go for the achievements or maybe pick up a few extra items, but for the most part, they're far from Metroid-like design. Doesn't stop them from being great games, and I've played through them all several times with undiminished enjoyment.

...and honestly, I don't see how Super Metroid is an example of a game that intentionally allows you to deviate from the developer's intended path. The only Metroid game with built-in SBs is Zero Mission. What you're talking about is breaking a game. I just find it ironic that you're disappointed that Other M appears to be well programmed.

072

Edit history:

072: 2010-07-15 03:17:54 pm

2010-07-15 03:17:28 pm

coral to complement blue

That's because there is fun to be had in breaking the game. You really can't see the appeal? It's what this site was founded upon. It's something, maybe the only thing to look forward to since the game is probably going to suck the way it was designed to be played. If the game is good that way (like Fusion) then that's great. But I can't see it happening.

Melancholy Spork

2010-07-15 04:01:00 pm

Quote from 072:

That's because there is fun to be had in breaking the game. You really can't see the appeal? It's what this site was founded upon. It's something, maybe the only thing to look forward to since the game is probably going to suck the way it was designed to be played. If the game is good that way (like Fusion) then that's great. But I can't see it happening.

I can see the appeal, I just don't think its a fair criticism to level against a game.

nate

2010-07-15 04:09:25 pm

it's perhaps not as fair from the developers' perspective because asking them to make a game like that is like asking them to run out in traffic and get hit by a car and die. it's not a pleasant thing from their perspective and it goes against a lot of instincts. it can be done but it's usually on accident that people get hit and die so it's hard to ask of them for that reason too. for example we know that metroid prime was entirely on accident. so how can you ask someone to duplicate what they weren't responsible for in the first place?

it's perhaps fair from the players' perspective because i mean what is an unreasonable demand in our terms? we are all about doing unreasonable/"impossible" things. so we don't care if it's asking the impossible because that's no problem for us so why should be a problem for the developers of the game?

Opium

Edit history:

Opium: 2010-07-15 05:16:07 pm

Opium: 2010-07-15 05:12:14 pm

Opium: 2010-07-15 05:12:03 pm

2010-07-15 05:11:45 pm

There seems to be three kinds of sequence breaks:

1-Totally designed that way on purpose (think early SA in ZM)
2-The result of an oversight by the developers, but doesn't involve actual glitches (think early wave or supers in Super)
3-Complete 'mistake' on the part of the designer which allows a player to take advantage of a flaw or use a glitch.

People on this site tend to value #3 the most, but I'm just the opposite.

tomatobob

2010-07-15 05:20:20 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Melancholy Spork:

Looking forward to meeting the slew of new fanboys/girls who masturbated to Samus's "emotional drama" and thought that meant that they were fans of the series.

Oh Opium is going to love them.

dave

2010-07-15 07:04:53 pm

Quote from Melancholy Spork:

...and honestly, I don't see how Super Metroid is an example of a game that intentionally allows you to deviate from the developer's intended path. The only Metroid game with built-in SBs is Zero Mission. What you're talking about is breaking a game. I just find it ironic that you're disappointed that Other M appears to be well programmed.

Early power bombs in Norfair just after Crocomire. They placed them in such an opportune place for a potential speed run (right above the room where you need a PB to get grapple). Considering all you really have to do is run and jump off a platform to get them early, I find it VERY hard to believe they weren't put there intentionally. Just think of how much shit you can do early through wall jumping alone. They knew what they were getting into when they added wall jumping as a semi-secret move. SM is the ballsiest game Nintendo has ever made. Nowadays they would cringe at the thought of dropping you into a game and saying "go ahead and figure everything out without help."

[quote="Melancholy Spork"]
...and honestly, I don't see how Super Metroid is an example of a game that intentionally allows you to deviate from the developer's intended path. The only Metroid game with built-in SBs is Zero Mission. What you're talking about is breaking a game. I just find it ironic that you're disappointed that Other M appears to be well programmed. 
[/quote]

Early power bombs in Norfair just after Crocomire.  They placed them in such an opportune place for a potential speed run (right above the room where you need a PB to get grapple).  Considering all you really have to do is run and jump off a platform to get them early, I find it VERY hard to believe they weren't put there intentionally.  Just think of how much shit you can do early through wall jumping alone.  They knew what they were getting into when they added wall jumping as a semi-secret move.  SM is the ballsiest game Nintendo has ever made.  Nowadays they would cringe at the thought of dropping you into a game and saying "go ahead and figure everything out without help."

Opium

2010-07-15 08:17:52 pm

Quote from dave:

Quote from Melancholy Spork:

...and honestly, I don't see how Super Metroid is an example of a game that intentionally allows you to deviate from the developer's intended path. The only Metroid game with built-in SBs is Zero Mission. What you're talking about is breaking a game. I just find it ironic that you're disappointed that Other M appears to be well programmed.

Early power bombs in Norfair just after Crocomire. They placed them in such an opportune place for a potential speed run (right above the room where you need a PB to get grapple). Considering all you really have to do is run and jump off a platform to get them early, I find it VERY hard to believe they weren't put there intentionally. Just think of how much shit you can do early through wall jumping alone. They knew what they were getting into when they added wall jumping as a semi-secret move. SM is the ballsiest game Nintendo has ever made. Nowadays they would cringe at the thought of dropping you into a game and saying "go ahead and figure everything out without help."

It's impossible to know for sure in Super which breaks were preconceived by the designers or not, but some of them are almost certain, like the example you just gave. They gave Samus so much agility in that game, probably more than any other character before (or since, maybe?). Still, the breaks which were total surprises to nintendo were looked upon as mistakes on their part. So it kinda goes back to what Nate said about asking them to make the game in a way that they see as faulty. I seriously don't think that they were aware of mockballing to get early supers. The first time they saw someone do that, they probably went "FUCK! Oops!" and made a conscious effort in the future to catch things like that and avoid them, even though we love those quirky and clever moves.
However sequence breaking comes into play in MoM remains to be seen, but I predict that there WILL be sequence breaks in the game, and that they will be intentional. I just don't think we'll see another game that was breakable in the way that Super was, because Ninty isn't about to intentionally make any more 'mistakes'. It's a total paradox - goofing up on purpose.

[quote="dave"][quote="Melancholy Spork"]
...and honestly, I don't see how Super Metroid is an example of a game that intentionally allows you to deviate from the developer's intended path. The only Metroid game with built-in SBs is Zero Mission. What you're talking about is breaking a game. I just find it ironic that you're disappointed that Other M appears to be well programmed. 
[/quote]

Early power bombs in Norfair just after Crocomire.  They placed them in such an opportune place for a potential speed run (right above the room where you need a PB to get grapple).  Considering all you really have to do is run and jump off a platform to get them early, I find it VERY hard to believe they weren't put there intentionally.  Just think of how much shit you can do early through wall jumping alone.  They knew what they were getting into when they added wall jumping as a semi-secret move.  SM is the ballsiest game Nintendo has ever made.  Nowadays they would cringe at the thought of dropping you into a game and saying "go ahead and figure everything out without help."[/quote]

It's impossible to know for sure in Super which breaks were preconceived by the designers or not, but some of them are almost certain, like the example you just gave.  They gave Samus so much agility in that game, probably more than any other character before (or since, maybe?).  Still, the breaks which were total surprises to nintendo were looked upon as mistakes on their part.  So it kinda goes back to what Nate said about asking them to make the game in a way that they see as faulty.  I seriously don't think that they were aware of mockballing to get early supers.  The first time they saw someone do that, they probably went "FUCK! Oops!"  and made a conscious effort in the future to catch things like that and avoid them, even though we love those quirky and clever moves.  
However sequence breaking comes into play in MoM remains to be seen, but I predict that there WILL be sequence breaks in the game, and that they will be intentional.  I just don't think we'll see another game that was breakable in the way that Super was, because Ninty isn't about to intentionally make any more 'mistakes'.  It's a total paradox - goofing up on purpose.

Chozoid

2010-07-16 02:19:34 am

I really dont care that much about Samus' emotions or whatever, learning about her past might be interesting but I don't care if they write a whole book about her just give the space pirates a real fucking name!

Opium

2010-07-16 02:23:58 am

Quote from Chozoid:

... just give the space pirates a real fucking name!

Hmmm...interesting idea. 'Space Pirates' does sound rather infantile. Someone has to come up with something better.

Prime Hunter

Edit history:

Prime Hunter: 2010-07-16 03:29:24 am

2010-07-16 03:29:12 am

At this point I doubt that a change of that kind would happen. They've been using the name Space Pirates since the very first game and haven't changed in in the 24 years since even with all of the opportunities to do so.

As I've said before, my experiences in college put me in an interesting mindset as far as game development goes. I see both ends of the sequence breaking debate having value. The players love seeing them because we get to do things outside of the intended plan, helping increase replay value and offering us something to continue searching for years after a game is launched. But from the developer's side, if the bug is a huge issue (As in one that breaks/crashes the game, for instance) there is no way I could let that slide because it kills a player's interest if a finished product is buggy and broken. So I understand the need to fix those types of bugs.

What I don't understand as well is, specifically regarding the Prime series, why Retro had to go and target some of the tricks we've found that impact the game in minimal ways for the average player. Secret worlds, sure I get fixing those. Going outside the game world is a big no-no in any game. (Especially due to how difficult it is to navigate them and the potential to screw up easily and be stuck outside forever.) But then there are things that don't make as much sense to me and feel like deliberate stabs at our community for what we've found. (Geothermal Core's PB rocks in front of Plasma with Prime, changing the area the acid rain hits in the Command Courtyard with Corruption, etc.)

In the end, it almost feels like sequence breaking is a "dying breed" as far as Metroid goes. As both Nate and Opium have said, there is no chance that Nintendo would allow major "flaws" such as Mockball into one of their games these days if they are caught during development. And chances are, they've learned enough from us to probably have their testers look out for tricks that we could take advantage of, further minimizing what we're able to do. Does it change the way their games are being designed from now on? Absolutely. But does that mean the original game is any worse off for it? I would say no, but then again I'm in the mindset that if the core gameplay is fun and exciting I'll still play the game regardless of whether or not I can SB it to death.

At this point I doubt that a change of that kind would happen. They've been using the name Space Pirates since the very first game and haven't changed in in the 24 years since even with all of the opportunities to do so.

As I've said before, my experiences in college put me in an interesting mindset as far as game development goes. I see both ends of the sequence breaking debate having value. The players love seeing them because we get to do things outside of the intended plan, helping increase replay value and offering us something to continue searching for years after a game is launched. But from the developer's side, if the bug is a huge issue (As in one that breaks/crashes the game, for instance) there is no way I could let that slide because it kills a player's interest if a finished product is buggy and broken. So I understand the need to fix those types of bugs.

What I don't understand as well is, specifically regarding the Prime series, why Retro had to go and target some of the tricks we've found that impact the game in minimal ways for the average player. Secret worlds, sure I get fixing those. Going outside the game world is a big no-no in any game. (Especially due to how difficult it is to navigate them and the potential to screw up easily and be stuck outside forever.) But then there are things that don't make as much sense to me and feel like deliberate stabs at our community for what we've found. (Geothermal Core's PB rocks in front of Plasma with Prime, changing the area the acid rain hits in the Command Courtyard with Corruption, etc.)

In the end, it almost feels like sequence breaking is a "dying breed" as far as Metroid goes. As both Nate and Opium have said, there is no chance that Nintendo would allow major "flaws" such as Mockball into one of their games these days if they are caught during development. And chances are, they've learned enough from us to probably have their testers look out for tricks that we could take advantage of, further minimizing what we're able to do. Does it change the way their games are being designed from now on? Absolutely. But does that mean the original game is any worse off for it? I would say no, but then again I'm in the mindset that if the core gameplay is fun and exciting I'll still play the game regardless of whether or not I can SB it to death.

Aruki

2010-07-16 05:02:37 am

it just looks so... bland.

hope it'll be better when it actually comes out.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-07-16 05:48:10 am

2010-07-16 05:47:26 am

Quote from dave:

Nowadays they would cringe at the thought of dropping you into a game and saying "go ahead and figure everything out without help."

I concur.

I understand you, Prime Hunter. I guess commercial devs are in big trouble to do sophisticated game-design and implementation. I think the main reason is the time-limitation and for many it is just one product amongst many others. The game has to be finished as soon as possible. So instead the trend goes to decorate the games with artistic qualities and some extra sauce. It seems to me that there are more top notch artists out there than programmers and game-designers.

tomatobob

2010-07-16 05:51:25 am

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from J_SNAKE:

It seems to me that there are more top notch artists out there than programmers and game-designers.

As far as video games are concerned? Not a chance in hell.

TheGreenManalishi

Edit history:

TheGreenManalishi: 2010-07-16 05:52:41 am

2010-07-16 05:52:15 am

I was gonna say, the amount of perfectly functional games with boring-ass art direction. There's loads of 'em.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2010-07-16 09:56:35 am

2010-07-16 09:55:32 am

Sorry for the confusion:
I am mainly talking about visual content that is created separately, such as particle-effects,models, sprites, animation. How that all fits the scene belongs to level design and that can look boring and tasteless as ass, no matter how good your models look. Also bad animation is often up to the programmer and not to the artist. For example we all know how undynamic and terrible SM-Samus looks in the hands of custom fan-game-makers.

kesvalk

Edit history:

kesvalk: 2010-07-16 03:36:07 pm

2010-07-16 03:35:15 pm

Indie Lover

i think i undestand what J_SNAKE is talking about, i too think there is too much games out there that are beautiful and plays like ass (RE5 is a example).

it seems like EA contaminated the whole industry, everyone is making games as fast as possible, caring mostly about the way it looks, and little about the way it plays...
this is why i don't like to compare videogames and movies, ppl try to match the movie visual quality and sound quality so much in videogames, that they forget the game needs to be played...

anyway, from the trailers, metroid other M seems to be very good, gameplay wise, and i really welcome more history in the series, sometimes, while i play metroid, i forget that it's a woman that i am controlling, she seems more like a robot than a human, and this is no good for me...