new cleanup route

2013-04-28 09:40:36 pm

ok so we can safely assume that it's 7-10 seconds faster. plus it's cooler and feels a bit easier, i think. AND, it's still around 15 seconds faster than what we were doing before, because our splits don't include the sector 3 trick

Dragonfangs

2013-04-29 10:00:15 am

~8 seconds seems consistent with my testing too.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-29 01:35:28 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-29 01:35:04 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-29 01:34:28 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-29 01:33:57 pm

2013-04-29 01:32:44 pm

15 seconds! 1/4 of a minute! :D :D :D :D :D

A few more things I've tested:

Sector 1 missile tank by the save room

I tested getting this in the first trip with walljumping vs. getting it during cleanup, and getting it during cleanup with space jump & screw attackwas around a half second faster. I expected that to be faster, but I didn't expect it to be this close.

Main Deck Spitter Room Missile Tank

Strat 1: Plant a power bomb immediately, then grab the missile tank on the way out. This lets you get a short speed boost when going through main reactor after cleanup. This is what we normally do.

Strat 2: Speed boost through the speed boost blocks, jump (with speed boost) through the first layer of breakable blocks, plant a power bomb, then leave the room without getting the missile tank. Get the missile tank after cleanup, after going through the main reactor.

I found strat 2 to be around 0.5-1 second slower. Strat 1 has the disadvantage of doing absolutely nothing while waiting for the PB to go off. However, strat 2 has the disadvantage of moving left them right needlessly to grab the missile tank, as well as not getting the very short speed boost at end-game.

Sector 2 Vine Room Missile Tank (below Nav room)

So the updated route gets this missile tank after high-jump, and then grabs the sector 1 PB tank (the one by the sector 1 - 2 tunnel) during cleanup, before going to sector 3. However, I tested getting this missile tank after yakuza/nettori vs. getting it after zazabi, and it turned out to be about a half second faster.

It's mainly a half second faster because you can freeze the second vine, land on it to save several frames, then run across it. So yep, get this missile tank after plasma beam!

ANYWAYS. TL;DR, first two route changes are slower, so stick to what we normally do. The third one I showed saves a half second. Maybe dfangs can test it, but I think my testing with small route changes is pretty reliable (as opposed to my testing for major changes X_X ).

I'm out of ideas to save time for now; I'll post again if I think of anything new.

15 seconds! 1/4 of a minute! :D :D :D :D :D

A few more things I've tested:

[u]Sector 1 missile tank by the save room[/u]

I tested getting this in the first trip with walljumping vs. getting it during cleanup, and getting it during cleanup with space jump & screw attackwas around a half second faster. I expected that to be faster, but I didn't expect it to be this close.

[u]Main Deck Spitter Room Missile Tank[/u]

Strat 1: Plant a power bomb immediately, then grab the missile tank on the way out. This lets you get a short speed boost when going through main reactor after cleanup. This is what we normally do.

Strat 2: Speed boost through the speed boost blocks, jump (with speed boost) through the first layer of breakable blocks, plant a power bomb, then leave the room without getting the missile tank. Get the missile tank after cleanup, after going through the main reactor.

I found strat 2 to be around 0.5-1 second slower. Strat 1 has the disadvantage of doing absolutely nothing while waiting for the PB to go off. However, strat 2 has the disadvantage of moving left them right needlessly to grab the missile tank, as well as not getting the very short speed boost at end-game.

[u]Sector 2 Vine Room Missile Tank (below Nav room)[/u]

So the updated route gets this missile tank after high-jump, and then grabs the sector 1 PB tank (the one by the sector 1 - 2 tunnel) during cleanup, before going to sector 3. However, I tested getting this missile tank after yakuza/nettori vs. getting it after zazabi, and it turned out to be about a half second faster.

It's mainly a half second faster because you can freeze the second vine, land on it to save several frames, then run across it. So yep, get this missile tank after plasma beam!

ANYWAYS. TL;DR, first two route changes are slower, so stick to what we normally do. The third one I showed saves a half second. Maybe dfangs can test it, but I think my testing with small route changes is pretty reliable (as opposed to my testing for major changes X_X ).

I'm out of ideas to save time for now; I'll post again if I think of anything new.

kirbymastah

2013-04-29 07:57:53 pm

More route testing!

Space boosting in the sector 1 lava room, but cutting it short at the first missile tank is only a half second slower than shinesparking across. So if you practice getting the missile tank and finishing the space boost at the second missile tank, it may be worth going for...

Also, getting the missile tank behind the blue door in the main first room of sector 2 is about a second slower if you get it just after plasma beam, as opposed to during cleanup. In other words, nothing new here.

BioSpark

2013-04-29 08:41:52 pm

when you did the testing for spaceboosting, did you start spaceboosting as early as possible in the long room? you save a lot of time by not running on the slopes

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-30 01:11:44 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-30 01:04:55 am

2013-04-29 11:20:34 pm

Nope, I started spaceboosting after the long room. So if you spaceboost all the way through the long room, it could even out.

EDIT: Tested that again, starting from the door transition at the start of the long room, getting only the top two missile tanks, then ending the timer at leaving via green door
Shinespark - 14.01
Space Boost ending at first missile tank - 14.27

So space boosting across the entire long hall saved probably another 1/6 second? Is it worth spaceboosting for the missile tank? I'm not going for it haha.

Now, another thing I tested with the same room, except this time grabbing all three missile tanks:

Shinespark for top two missile tanks, then grab bottom-right missile tank (normal strat) - 22.21
Space boosting from the start of the long room, space boosting to the left-most missile tank then grabbing the middle one then the bottom-right one - 22.39

So it's roughly 18 frames slower to space boost, assuming you don't get the middle missile tank during the space boost (because how the hell do you do that without TASing).

This is more of an info dump; I guess maybe biospark/dfangs can figure out a way to make the space boost faster yet still humanly possible?

Nope, I started spaceboosting after the long room. So if you spaceboost all the way through the long room, it could even out.

EDIT: Tested that again, starting from the door transition at the start of the long room, getting only the top two missile tanks, then ending the timer at leaving via green door
Shinespark - 14.01
Space Boost ending at first missile tank - 14.27

So space boosting across the entire long hall saved probably another 1/6 second? Is it worth spaceboosting for the missile tank? I'm not going for it haha.

Now, another thing I tested with the same room, except this time grabbing all three missile tanks:

Shinespark for top two missile tanks, then grab bottom-right missile tank (normal strat) - 22.21
Space boosting from the start of the long room, space boosting to the left-most missile tank then grabbing the middle one then the bottom-right one - 22.39

So it's roughly 18 frames slower to space boost, assuming you don't get the middle missile tank during the space boost (because how the hell do you do that without TASing).

This is more of an info dump; I guess maybe biospark/dfangs can figure out a way to make the space boost faster yet still humanly possible?

BioSpark

2013-04-30 09:33:23 am

spaceboosting isn't worth it. the time difference is too small

kirbymastah

2013-05-03 04:36:47 pm

This might've been already tested; if it already has, this should reinforce this.

WATER ROOM MISSILE TANK IN SECTOR 2

For the double missile tank in the water room of sector 2 during cleanup, it is roughly 20-25 frames faster to grab the top missile tank first than the bottom missile tank first. This means your strat is to space jump to the top missile tank, then after leavin the room with the bottom missile tank, space jump back (do NOT run across the ground and then climb the ladder. this is SLOWER.)

PATH FOR VINE ROOM MISSILE TANK AFTER NETTORI

Biospark brought this up; so when getting the vine room missile tank after yakzua/nettori, when back in the main room (where you PB one PB block), you want to run left across the bottom of the room then zigzag. This is, on average, one second faster in-game than using another PB to take the bomb block shortcut.

BioSpark

Edit history:

BioSpark: 2013-05-04 01:28:23 pm

2013-05-04 01:27:20 pm

concerning sector 3 cleanup:

dfangs and i tested the route jagger thought of for sector 3. i got 3 seconds faster, he got 4.5 seconds. so we'll just say it's a 3-4.5 second time saver.

after falling down the stretchie shaft, head right. skip the two tanks in the lava room and spark up the really tall room. you can either charge a shine right before the screw attack blocks, or break the blocks and back up a tiny bit to charge up a new one. after falling down from the tall room, get the two tanks in the lava room. run left and spaceboost through the long lava room (it's an easy spaceboost). get the powerbomb and head back to the stretchie shaft. climb the shaft by grabbing the rungs and jumping off of them. finally, exit through the bob room and use the shinespark for the long lava room.

i think this flows better, aside from falling down the huge room. you don't have to go across the top of sector 3 twice, plus you get two extra speedboost tricks.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-05-04 08:00:51 pm

2013-05-04 06:56:08 pm

I think on average, this route would save a couple extra seconds, because it takes away two trips where you run through lava (where you can get hit by random lava plumes) via the space boost & shinespark. It also takes away revisits through two rooms that have annoying sidehoppers and ceiling flame dudes that can (and will) hit you randomly.

kirbymastah

2013-06-24 12:40:07 pm

So random thought.

When cleaning up sector 3, how much time does space boosting across the lava pit save against not space boosting across it. Then how much time does shinesparking up the vertical shaft save against ladder-climbing it.

I seriously doubt shinesparking up saves more time than the space boost, but it's worth looking into. I don't really have time to test it out for today and tomorrow though =/

If shinesparking saves more time, then that means we're back to the original sector 3 route, kind of: Go to the power bomb tank detour first, then clean up the bottom-right area, then fall down and run left then shinespark up.

Dragonfangs

2013-06-24 06:16:12 pm

Kirby pls. I tried that when we were timing the route originally and I think it's even slower than the old route iirc.

kirbymastah

2014-03-21 02:55:59 pm

Biospark shared with me the sector 2 cleanup route he was testing for TAS, and I decided to try testing every combination for console. The route in question is about three expansions:

1. Sector 1 Power Bomb tank, in the upper-right corner
2. Vine room missile tank in sector 2
3. Owtch Room missile tank in sector 2, by the first big room

According to my testing, the fastest route is AAF for in-game time, which is to not get any of those expansions after obtaining plasma beam, and also during sector 1 cleanup. Then get all three of them at once after clearing crumble city in sector 2.

1. Upon entering the big room of sector 2, just spin through the bomb blocks and go to vine room
2. Go left all the way until the PB tank (unmorph early after the morph ball tunnel to avoid a power grip). Then go right.
3. Upon entering the vine room again, spaceboost right; try to be ascending upon the door transition.
4. Take the upper path through the bomb blocks, and go to the owtch room. Clean up the rest of sector 2 like normal.

My data is attached to this post. I basically tested by figuring out the room strat, then doing it 10 times optimally-ish and taking the average.

By (from running) in my notes, what that means is I can enter that room spaceboosting, and potentially save another 0.5-1 seconds from keeping it a little longer. However, this is really difficult, and my testing assumed worst-case scenario, which is starting the room from running. The AAF route is 25 frames faster with worst-case scenario than the current route we use (which is CBB, and is 2nd fastest), but it would be a little faster if the space boost was maintained.

Biospark shared with me the sector 2 cleanup route he was testing for TAS, and I decided to try testing every combination for console. The route in question is about three expansions:

1. Sector 1 Power Bomb tank, in the upper-right corner
2. Vine room missile tank in sector 2
3. Owtch Room missile tank in sector 2, by the first big room

According to my testing, the fastest route is AAF for in-game time, which is to not get any of those expansions after obtaining plasma beam, and also during sector 1 cleanup. Then get all three of them at once after clearing crumble city in sector 2.

1. Upon entering the big room of sector 2, just spin through the bomb blocks and go to vine room
2. Go left all the way until the PB tank (unmorph early after the morph ball tunnel to avoid a power grip). Then go right.
3. Upon entering the vine room again, spaceboost right; try to be ascending upon the door transition.
4. Take the upper path through the bomb blocks, and go to the owtch room. Clean up the rest of sector 2 like normal.

My data is attached to this post. I basically tested by figuring out the room strat, then doing it 10 times optimally-ish and taking the average.

By (from running) in my notes, what that means is I can enter that room spaceboosting, and potentially save another 0.5-1 seconds from keeping it a little longer. However, this is really difficult, and my testing assumed worst-case scenario, which is starting the room from running. The AAF route is 25 frames faster with worst-case scenario than the current route we use (which is CBB, and is 2nd fastest), but it would be a little faster if the space boost was maintained.

attachment:

real_time.txt

BioSpark

2014-03-21 09:52:40 pm

just keep in mind that with how close this is, someone else might get different results. i still need to retest this for tas and for real time.

kirbymastah

2014-03-22 01:54:49 am

Well I don't know how to add. The 40.04 in AAF is actually 40.60, so it's slower without the proper space boost. Yay, no route change cuz I suck at math.

So assuming you miss the spaceboost, the original route is fastest. With the spaceboost going through the door, BAD and AAF would be a bit faster.

Attached the fix txt route file

attachment:

real_time.txt

Dragonfangs

2014-03-22 05:38:50 am

That's exactly what I used to do when we first found the reverse cleanup route. I stopped because the 'standard' way is much easier, consistency ftw.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-03-22 07:30:41 pm

2014-03-22 07:29:28 pm

Quote from Dragonfangs:

That's exactly what I used to do when we first found the reverse cleanup route. I stopped because the 'standard' way is much easier, consistency ftw.

IIRC back then, we merely tested when it was best to get the sec1 PB tank and also the vine room missile tank; i don't think we tested the owtch room missile tank extensively enough at the time. I'd rather do AAF over BAD, because the disadvantage to BAD is that you have to actually time spring balling into the morph ball tunnel in the owtch room (no screw attack).

I'm likely going to switch to AAF. No need to worry about timing the ice missile on the vine and bug and getting the corner clip, and it has an extra short spaceboost too :^)

JaggerG

2014-03-24 11:55:18 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I looked at your past broadcast.

Quote from kirbymastah:

1. Upon entering the big room of sector 2, just spin through the bomb blocks and go to vine room
2. Go left all the way until the PB tank (unmorph early after the morph ball tunnel to avoid a power grip). Then go right.
3. Upon entering the vine room again, spaceboost right; try to be ascending upon the door transition.

Translated to Jagger-strats:

Quote from Jagger-strats:

1. Upon entering the big room of sector 2, charge a shine at the edge of the platform, SA through the bomb blocks, spark as high through the door to the vine room as possible.
2. Hold left to auto-SA through the blocks, doing a short hop so as to not lose frames by landing repeatedly. Go through the tube, spark into the slope and charge at the PB tank, spark right and jump into the morph tunnel. Then go right.
3. Upon entering the vine room again, spaceboost right, try to fall into the top-left corner of the missile tank and jump right before landing to continue the boost; try to be ascending upon the door transition.
4. Lose 5 seconds in 95% of your runs, but nail it one glorious time to save almost second^{[citation needed]}.

I looked at your past broadcast.

[quote="kirbymastah"]1. Upon entering the big room of sector 2, just spin through the bomb blocks and go to vine room
2. Go left all the way until the PB tank (unmorph early after the morph ball tunnel to avoid a power grip). Then go right.
3. Upon entering the vine room again, spaceboost right; try to be ascending upon the door transition.[/quote]

Translated to Jagger-strats:

[quote="Jagger-strats"]1. Upon entering the big room of sector 2, charge a shine at the edge of the platform, SA through the bomb blocks, spark as high through the door to the vine room as possible.
2. Hold left to auto-SA through the blocks, doing a short hop so as to not lose frames by landing repeatedly. Go through the tube, spark into the slope and charge at the PB tank, spark right and jump into the morph tunnel. Then go right.
3. Upon entering the vine room again, spaceboost right, try to fall into the top-left corner of the missile tank and jump right before landing to continue the boost; try to be ascending upon the door transition.
4. Lose 5 seconds in 95% of your runs, but nail it one glorious time to save almost second[sup][citation needed][/sup].[/quote]

BioSpark

2014-03-24 01:29:24 pm

sounds about right. that's very close to how the tas would look, except for a couple of those frame perfect standing speedboost jump things.

JaggerG

2014-03-25 05:28:14 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Cool. In TAS, could you charge the first shine in the middle, right in front of the SA blocks? That's probably the only chance to space boost through the missile tank instead of shinesparking. I'm also assuming you can spaceboost through tubes?

BioSpark

Edit history:

BioSpark: 2014-03-25 06:05:31 pm

BioSpark: 2014-03-25 06:05:15 pm

2014-03-25 06:04:54 pm

do you mean the bomb blocks? the standing jump breaks the rightmost blocks, then i just jump to break the next two. plenty of time to reach the slope by the door and start a space boost. i can't space boost through the tubes, so i stop soon after going though the screw attack blocks so that i can do another standing jump before the slope in sec 1

kirbymastah

2014-03-25 08:49:20 pm

Quote from BioSpark:

do you mean the bomb blocks? the standing jump breaks the rightmost blocks, then i just jump to break the next two. plenty of time to reach the slope by the door and start a space boost. i can't space boost through the tubes, so i stop soon after going though the screw attack blocks so that i can do another standing jump before the slope in sec 1

IIRC You can spaceboost in 2-block tunnels in MZM but not fusion :(

Dragonfangs

2014-03-26 01:11:35 pm

Dat one extra required falling frame.