New 100% Route

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-15 07:34:25 pm

2013-04-15 07:33:47 pm

So grabbing Long Beam late is 9-13 seconds faster, depending on if your route requires you to get anything else in upper Brinstar when going to Tourian(which all current routes do). How much time you lose in the normal route by not having Long is probably going to very personal, so this might or might not save time ultimately. Hive Room is clearly the biggest factor though.

ZX497

2013-04-15 07:39:53 pm

Dragondarch's Brinstar route doesn't have any items left to grab in Brinstar before Tourian, so Late Long works pretty good with that.

Dragonfangs

2013-04-15 07:43:04 pm

Really? That would mean he has to bomb jump up to the missile tank at the very top, between the shafts.

ZX497

2013-04-15 07:44:13 pm

Oh, yeah... I think that tank would be faster to grab there, though?

Dragonfangs

Edit history:

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-15 08:06:05 pm

Dragonfangs: 2013-04-15 07:46:36 pm

2013-04-15 07:46:14 pm

I'm not sure, grabbing it later takes(not costs, important) about 10secs, and also lets you take the missile partway to bombs a second faster thanks to Screw Attack. I guess it depends on how good your bomb jumping is.

EDIT: So I tested the Hive Room a bit. With my personal level of execution and strategies (which involve distracting the flies by falling down if I don't have long), a good room with Long Beam is about 5 seconds faster than a good room without.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-15 09:02:02 pm

2013-04-15 09:00:03 pm

I think I cracked it. Enter Norfair with 3 E-tanks, grab the early super, and skip the two Missile Tanks in the hot room entirely. Then on clean-up, instead going through the top-path and grabbing the Super, you'd clean up by going through the bottom path and getting the two missile tanks in the hot room, then going through the worm corridor again to enter Norfair Shaft.

I did some preliminary testing, and the routes are very, very close to each other in terms of speed. However, the early Super route wouldn't have to refill on Norfair at all, AND would have extra 2 Supers to spare.

Dragondarch

2013-04-15 09:53:46 pm

Quote from ZX497:

Dragondarch's Brinstar route doesn't have any items left to grab in Brinstar before Tourian, so Late Long works pretty good with that.

Incorrect. My old 56:11 saves the missile tank between the 2 shafts for right before Tourian, but collects everything else.
Now, I also save the tank in the shaft before Hive room for this point as well.

ZX497

2013-04-15 10:18:09 pm

Yeah, I forgot about that. Guess there really aren't any routes for Brinstar which would work that great with Late Long then... it'd basically save the least amount possible with either route, considering you'd have to actually still go a little out of your way to grab it before Tourian.

Dragondarch

2013-04-15 10:22:18 pm

Quote from ZX497:

I think I cracked it. Enter Norfair with 3 E-tanks, grab the early super, and skip the two Missile Tanks in the hot room entirely. Then on clean-up, instead going through the top-path and grabbing the Super, you'd clean up by going through the bottom path and getting the two missile tanks in the hot room, then going through the worm corridor again to enter Norfair Shaft.

I did some preliminary testing, and the routes are very, very close to each other in terms of speed. However, the early Super route wouldn't have to refill on Norfair at all, AND would have extra 2 Supers to spare.

So you're saying grab the super/missile tank that we've been skipping since forever, and doing that one (usually dangerous without a refill) hot room much later? I wanna say sign me up, but Acid Worm skip...
You'd still only have 4 (3 technically) supers for Imago Cocoon though, since you'd be using 2 for doors in Norfair. It would slightly speed up Ridley provided good drops, and would help in Tourian, obviously.

Also, is this using your Brinstar route, or the old one (modified to grab pre-hive shaft tank late)?

Quote from Dragonfangs:

I'm not sure, grabbing it later takes(not costs, important) about 10secs, and also lets you take the missile partway to bombs a second faster thanks to Screw Attack. I guess it depends on how good your bomb jumping is.

EDIT: So I tested the Hive Room a bit. With my personal level of execution and strategies (which involve distracting the flies by falling down if I don't have long), a good room with Long Beam is about 5 seconds faster than a good room without.

Getting the tank between the two shafts early kinda requires cooperation from the Rippers as well, since certain patterns will force you to wait for them to move. Also, Late Long is still kinda usable since the point it spits you out at is practically right next to the Long Beam corridor.
For the hive room, I think the way we want to do it is to go in with at least 4 missiles, use 3 on the far left hive, grab the tank, then let the bugs chase us. If done right, we can damage boost off the bugs from the left hive into the middle hive and spam some missiles for a quick kill. The same can be done for the right hive. There's some elements of luck involved though.

[quote="ZX497"]I think I cracked it. Enter Norfair with 3 E-tanks, grab the early super, and skip the two Missile Tanks in the hot room entirely. Then on clean-up, instead going through the top-path and grabbing the Super, you'd clean up by going through the bottom path and getting the two missile tanks in the hot room, then going through the worm corridor again to enter Norfair Shaft.

I did some preliminary testing, and the routes are very, very close to each other in terms of speed. However, the early Super route wouldn't have to refill on Norfair at all, AND would have extra 2 Supers to spare.[/quote]
So you're saying grab the super/missile tank that we've been skipping since forever, and doing that one (usually dangerous without a refill) hot room much later? I wanna say sign me up, but Acid Worm skip...
You'd still only have 4 (3 technically) supers for Imago Cocoon though, since you'd be using 2 for doors in Norfair. It would slightly speed up Ridley provided good drops, and would help in Tourian, obviously.

Also, is this using your Brinstar route, or the old one (modified to grab pre-hive shaft tank late)?

[quote="Dragonfangs"]I'm not sure, grabbing it later takes(not costs, important) about 10secs, and also lets you take the missile partway to bombs a second faster thanks to Screw Attack. I guess it depends on how good your bomb jumping is.

EDIT: So I tested the Hive Room a bit. With my personal level of execution and strategies (which involve distracting the flies by falling down if I don't have long), a good room with Long Beam is about 5 seconds faster than a good room without.[/quote]
Getting the tank between the two shafts early kinda requires cooperation from the Rippers as well, since certain patterns will force you to wait for them to move. Also, Late Long is still kinda usable since the point it spits you out at is practically right next to the Long Beam corridor.
For the hive room, I think the way we want to do it is to go in with at least 4 missiles, use 3 on the far left hive, grab the tank, then let the bugs chase us. If done right, we can damage boost off the bugs from the left hive into the middle hive and spam some missiles for a quick kill. The same can be done for the right hive. There's some elements of luck involved though.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-15 10:43:31 pm

2013-04-15 10:40:15 pm

Quote from Dragondarch:

So you're saying grab the super/missile tank that we've been skipping since forever, and doing that one (usually dangerous without a refill) hot room much later? I wanna say sign me up, but Acid Worm skip...
You'd still only have 4 (3 technically) supers for Imago Cocoon though, since you'd be using 2 for doors in Norfair. It would slightly speed up Ridley provided good drops, and would help in Tourian, obviously.

Also, is this using your Brinstar route, or the old one (modified to grab pre-hive shaft tank late)?

Yeah, that's exactly right. Note that you don't actually _have_ to do the Acid Worm skip for this route, it works without it... but if you are going to skip Acid Worm too, your Brinstar route is definitely way better than mine, considering it nets an extra E-tank, which is what you need to skip the refill stations at Norfair altogether (having just 2 is just not gonna cut it there).

Also, Kirbymastah mentioned this really cool trick, which actually allows you to blow all except one Super for no time loss on Imago Cocoon (75% of the time at least). Basically, save one Super for the first green door, then on the first shinespark through the Ridley Owl room, spinjump right on top of the owl, and initiate a mid-air spark. The owl almost always drops you a Super Missile, and it's a completely lossless drop to get. If the Owl doesn't happen to drop a Super, there's still that hot room with lots of sidehoppers and a couple of owls which will most definitely rescue you.

I timed it that having 2 Extra supers on Ridley should save 3 seconds, so that'd basically mean you'd wanna refill if you have 6 or less, cause the refill there would take around 6 seconds. The time gain is probably a little less if your regular missile mashing is really good, though.

[quote="Dragondarch"]So you're saying grab the super/missile tank that we've been skipping since forever, and doing that one (usually dangerous without a refill) hot room much later? I wanna say sign me up, but Acid Worm skip...
You'd still only have 4 (3 technically) supers for Imago Cocoon though, since you'd be using 2 for doors in Norfair. It would slightly speed up Ridley provided good drops, and would help in Tourian, obviously.

Also, is this using your Brinstar route, or the old one (modified to grab pre-hive shaft tank late)?
[/quote]

Yeah, that's exactly right. Note that you don't actually _have_ to do the Acid Worm skip for this route, it works without it... but if you are going to skip Acid Worm too, your Brinstar route is definitely way better than mine, considering it nets an extra E-tank, which is what you need to skip the refill stations at Norfair altogether (having just 2 is just not gonna cut it there).

Also, Kirbymastah mentioned this really cool trick, which actually allows you to blow all except one Super for no time loss on Imago Cocoon (75% of the time at least). Basically, save one Super for the first green door, then on the first shinespark through the Ridley Owl room, spinjump right on top of the owl, and initiate a mid-air spark. The owl almost always drops you a Super Missile, and it's a completely lossless drop to get. If the Owl doesn't happen to drop a Super, there's still that hot room with lots of sidehoppers and a couple of owls which will most definitely rescue you.

I timed it that having 2 Extra supers on Ridley should save 3 seconds, so that'd basically mean you'd wanna refill if you have 6 or less, cause the refill there would take around 6 seconds. The time gain is probably a little less if your regular missile mashing is really good, though.

Dragonfangs

2013-04-15 11:02:40 pm

Quote from Dragondarch:

Also, Late Long is still kinda usable since the point it spits you out at is practically right next to the Long Beam corridor.

Well yes, that's the route that leaves you at saving 9 seconds.

Dragondarch

2013-04-15 11:08:58 pm

I'm thinking it's possible to do that last hot room without any refills in Norfair if we enter with 5 E-Tanks and don't get hit too many times. Risky as hell though, and probably not reliable enough for SS (SCREW ATTACK HALLWAY Evil or Very Mad

)
I started grabbing that super drop the way Kirby mentioned after he explained it once. Fun fact: the "Owls" real name is "Holtz"

Mobiusman

Edit history:

Mobiusman: 2013-04-16 04:24:25 am

2013-04-16 04:19:07 am

I'm having a little trouble keeping up. ZX, are you saying that without any other changes, you want to get the super early instead of doing the hot corridor? I can kind of see the logic if you're talking about an AWS route, but it seems pointless with the old route.

edit: also, re: long beam skip, getting that one missile tank at the top of brinstar early is insanely hard/inconsistent to do quickly. And getting it late means you're kind of going out of your way to get long beam.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-16 07:37:25 am

2013-04-16 06:37:23 am

Ok, I re-timed the Ridley routes today, and the top route seems about 7-8 seconds faster, just from routing. This doesn't take into account time saved with the extra supers on Imago Cocoon, Ridley and Tourian, nor does it account for the possibility of skipping a Norfair refill with just 3 Tanks.

So in the end, for anything non AWS related, it's still pretty much just, do whatever, haha.

EDIT:

Actually, there was a small thing I ignored when timing them. With the bottom route, you could actually skip getting the E-tank in the worm corridor until clean-up. This might seem like a terrible idea, considering this is what you normally use to refill to full after the hot rooms, but luckily enough, you get another E-tank right after Imago Cocoon, so it's not terribly bad. Saving the E-tank until later, means you don't have to go back and forth in the worm corridor at all to charge your shinespark, you can just run past it all as soon as the worm breaks.

With this, the top route would only be 5-6 seconds ahead, which means the extra Super Missiles would definitely save time over it, and tip the scales in favor of the bottom route, instead of just the routes being equally fast.

Ok, I re-timed the Ridley routes today, and the top route seems about 7-8 seconds faster, just from routing. This doesn't take into account time saved with the extra supers on Imago Cocoon, Ridley and Tourian, nor does it account for the possibility of skipping a Norfair refill with just 3 Tanks.

So in the end, for anything non AWS related, it's still pretty much just, do whatever, haha.

EDIT:

Actually, there was a small thing I ignored when timing them. With the bottom route, you could actually skip getting the E-tank in the worm corridor until clean-up. This might seem like a terrible idea, considering this is what you normally use to refill to full after the hot rooms, but luckily enough, you get another E-tank right after Imago Cocoon, so it's not terribly bad. Saving the E-tank until later, means you don't have to go back and forth in the worm corridor at all to charge your shinespark, you can just run past it all as soon as the worm breaks.

With this, the top route would only be 5-6 seconds ahead, which means the extra Super Missiles would definitely save time over it, and tip the scales in favor of the bottom route, instead of just the routes being equally fast.

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-16 11:36:57 am

2013-04-16 10:25:20 am

I'll post the second one a little bit later. Also, this one's just basically the route, it's filled with mistakes, and I get hit so much I wouldn't have even made it without drops.

Not much to say about this one, it's very bare-bones and nothing special... just go through :P

Mobiusman

2013-04-16 10:37:53 am

First, having three etanks is a result of using the AWS route, but this applies equally to a more traditional route, right?

Second, are the drop rates of the rocket turtles high enough that we should be comfortable using supers on the megahopper if we're not refilling?

Third, this idea is cool. I'm not sure it's actually faster in a non-AWS route, but I'm not dismissing it yet.

ZX497

2013-04-16 10:44:19 am

Yeah, this applies to the regular, non-AWS route as well. The droprate of Supers from the Rippers is indeed very high. It's not quite as good as with Owls, but it's still pretty much guaranteed you'd get back the two supers you waste on the big sidehopper. In the worst case scenario, you wouldn't get back the Supers, and this would mean you'd have to refill on the Wave-beam room, unless you'd really, really want to push your luck that you'd get that Super from that last big sidehopper, or from the tentacle room. I think it's worth gambling with two supers on the big sidehopper.

And if nothing else, this route will make skipping a refill on Norfair easier, regardless of your amount of E-tanks.

Thomaz

2013-04-16 10:53:45 am

These routes get stranger and stranger by the minute. o_O

Glad I won't be going for the WR I guess. <_<

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 10:54:54 am

2013-04-16 10:54:03 am

I'm testing out something new right now, unrelated to norfair. I'll post my results in like an hour :D

But wait, so with AWS, is getting the early super in norfair confirmed to be faster then? I haven't kept up with the recent norfair routing. What about non-AWS?

ZX497

2013-04-16 10:56:11 am

It should be faster on both routes, if I've timed everything correctly. With AWS, it's even better considering that's the only way you can avoid refilling on Norfair at all.

kirbymastah

2013-04-16 10:57:25 am

I don't really get why it'd be faster without AWS...?

ZX497

Edit history:

ZX497: 2013-04-16 10:59:35 am

ZX497: 2013-04-16 10:59:27 am

2013-04-16 10:59:07 am

Cause it just... is? The routes are within 6 seconds of each other, and those 2 extra Supers make up at least 8 on Imago Cocoon, Ridley and Tourian.

kirbymastah

2013-04-16 10:59:51 am

oh wow, didn't realize the two extra supers made such a big difference o.o

ZX497

2013-04-16 11:00:53 am

It's not 8 sec on each, btw, it's 8 secs on total. It's a couple seconds for everything individually.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:32:30 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:31:16 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:28:51 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:27:52 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:25:15 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:19:57 am

kirbymastah: 2013-04-16 11:19:45 am

2013-04-16 11:18:26 am

In terms of in-game time...

Kraid Cleanup 1

Kraid Cleanup 2

Video 1 took 43:59.44 - 42:24.31 = 1:35.13

Video 2 took 44:06.34 - 42:24.31 = 1:42.03

(WILL EDIT WHEN VIDEOS ARE UP)

Whether you AWS or not shouldn't make a noticeable difference in these two routes

I was hoping route #2 would be faster since it'd save the trouble of going backwards, but unfortunately I forgot that the long hall with sidehoppers exist :( Still, considering the extra hall that it has, I didn't expect it to be only 7 seconds slower (both in-game and RTA). Clearly Jagger% material.

Also I hope you like my strat to freeze the turtle in the zipline missile tank room; if you shoot right, immediately after destroying the third set of speed boost blocks, then you can freeze it in that position. Not sure if this applies for all of its placements though...

EDIT: Also ZX, how do you do the easy strat to bomb yourself out of the lava for the norfair super/missile tanks?

In terms of in-game time...

Kraid Cleanup 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec9MJQHPTTw

Kraid Cleanup 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Deib8WLp4

Video 1 took 43:59.44 - 42:24.31 = 1:35.13

Video 2 took 44:06.34 - 42:24.31 = 1:42.03

(WILL EDIT WHEN VIDEOS ARE UP)

Whether you AWS or not shouldn't make a noticeable difference in these two routes

I was hoping route #2 would be faster since it'd save the trouble of going backwards, but unfortunately I forgot that the long hall with sidehoppers exist :( Still, considering the extra hall that it has, I didn't expect it to  be only 7 seconds slower (both in-game and RTA). Clearly Jagger% material.

Also I hope you like my strat to freeze the turtle in the zipline missile tank room; if you shoot right, immediately after destroying the third set of speed boost blocks, then you can freeze it in that position. Not sure if this applies for all of its placements though...

EDIT: Also ZX, how do you do the easy strat to bomb yourself out of the lava for the norfair super/missile tanks?