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Dai Grepher
2006-03-26 02:37:36 am
Quote:
The Dark Knight: Heres how I see it. All the things you quoted from the box only say something like "the full story", implying that they only added more to zero mission, not made an entirely differently story.


The box states that Zero Mission is Samus' first mission and her first adventure. Metroid is not her first mission or her first adventure.

Quote:
The Dark Knight: The map design is different because zero mission has a whole different type of gameplay and graphics. The programmers wouldnt bother to make the two games exact replicas, and again, some of it is different because of the gameplay.


Things that should be the same are not.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4672/beforekraidm0dt.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4425/beforekraidzm3oq.png

What happened to the ceiling detail? Was this all forgotten, or is this a timeframe before the pirates built that ceiling?

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7012/brinstarm1eh.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4539/brinstarzm2ia.png

These look very different from one another. Metroid’s image shows more pirate construction on the area, where as Zero Mission’s is mostly a basic and plain cave.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2374/shideoutelevator4ez.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2238/kraidelevator8co.png

A wall carving as detailed as Metroid’s reduced to a mere lump of a face that you would see in a preschooler’s clay model class? I think not. This is a case of more detail coming in at a later timeframe.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/1787/norfairelevatorm0we.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6729/norfairelevatorzm0zh.png

In one we have an elevator in a cave of stone and brick. In the other we have an elevator in a room made of metal. These pictures show that the pirates expanded upon their bases between Zero Mission and Metroid.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/872/shideoutelevator3ho.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8360/ridleyelevator0hi.png

Yet another case of downgrading if Zero Mission were a remake.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4951/ssecretm1fb.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5520/ssecretzm8rm.png

Where did that huge area with the lava pit and Energy take way at the end go? This cannot be a case of the designers simply forgetting what went there.

For being so much more powerful than the NES, the GBA certainly displays some plain and basic structures, don’t you think? The NES version of these areas is more detailed, and this is because Metroid takes place in a later time frame. Even though the NES was 8-bit, it still displayed more detailed areas.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9282/tourianelevatorm6ho.png
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7846/tourianelevatorzm1jp.png

So tell me, which version looks more like the following?

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/8163/tourianelevatorsm6fj.png

This next one is not an area, but it does prove something…

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9252/kraid7fa.png

Do you notice something a little different here? It is Samus’ suit color. If you obtain the Varia Suit before fighting Kraid, this scene will display the color of Samus’ Varia Suit instead of the regular yellow color for the Power Suit. What does this prove? It proves that the designers spared no expense at making this game match the facts. They intentionally put a code in the game to recognize which suit Samus has while entering Kraid’s room so that this scene would display the proper color.
If they cared about this one little detail, then surely they would care about the MAJOR differences between the above pictures as well as others that I showed in my presentation.

Quote:
The Dark Knight: And finally, I believe that everyone knows its a remake, and it would almost be like "betraying" them if nintendo reveals that zero mission has a totally different story.


It would not be a betrayal, because Nintendo never presented the game as a remake in the first place.

Quote:
Chanoire: Dai: Explain how the advertising phrases you quoted could NOT apply to a remake. Or what phrases you would expect them to use if it were a remake that are different from what they did use.


They cannot apply to a remake of Metroid because Metroid is not Samus' first mission.
Besides stating "Metroid mission" or something similar, I think a remake ad would have said that we would relive Samus' adventure from the NES Metroid and learn the true story of those events.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: no offense Dai, but all this info is bogus.


No, all of that info comes from the official source, Nintendo. You cannot argue with the company that made the game.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: the advertisments dont have anything to do with it becoming a prequel. the rest of your info doesnt have anything to do with it.


Becoming a prequel? It IS a prequel. The ads all state that it is Samus' first mission. Metroid had numerous missions take place before it. If Metroid has missions before it, and Zero Mission is the FIRST mission, then doesn't that make Zero Mission a prequel?

Quote:
Dr. Trence: now, i have a question:

if it ever was a prequel, then wouldnt that alter the official metroid time-line, then screwing up the story?


No. If it did, I probably would not think of it as a prequel.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: The MP2 bonus disk has the metroid time-line on it, (the official one) and it doesnt have ZM before metroid. What you're saying is that nintendo made this typo on purpose, then hid the fact that ZM is a prequel?


The bonus disc timeline may just be something Retro threw together at the last minute. However, the timeline may indicate that Samus told Zero Mission’s events after Metroid, but the actual events took place before Metroid. Since Zero Mission is just one big flashback and narration of Samus at a later point in time, this is one likely possibility. In any case, the timeline does not show Zero Mission as a remake either, rather as a sequel, which is not possible.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: like what dark knight said in an earlier post, if that is true, then we, the people would think that they "betrayed" us.


That would not make it true though.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: why would nintendo do that? nintendo isnt stupid enough to do that sorta thing, and if you theroy is true, and gets out to the public, then that would ruin nintendos rep.


No it would not. There are many fans that think Zero Mission is a prequel, even though they drew their conclusions with half the evidence I have presented. Every since Zero Mission was advertised, many fans knew it was a prequel. All following evidence has just backed up that belief.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: answer that, and tell me why nintendo did those things on purpose just so they could hide the fact the ZM is a prequel.


I do not see any case of where Nintendo tricked you into thinking that the game was a remake. I have heard of some Nintendo Power comments made by ignorant editors that were later retracted by NOA, but all of the official information points to it being a new adventure, and one that takes place before Metroid.

Quote:
SamusAranLuver: er wtf nintendo made the game. if they made it a remake then its a remake.


They did not say that. They said it was a new mission. That makes it a new mission.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: Dai wrote:
“For the first time ever, the real story behind Samus Aran’s first mission is told, including new details about the origins of the legendary bounty hunter.” – Zero Mission website

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5282/zeromissionstaement9re.png

doesnt say anything about a new story. it basically means
"Experience samus' first adventure, with new details about her true past"


The new story is mentioned in the reference to it being the first mission, which is one we had never played before that.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: first time is referring to samus' first mission, mission is the subject of the sentence, first is referring to the subject, first is also the adj., which explains that the mission was her first, making it "Metroid". learned that in CORE class a while back, a pointless lesson, but it does prove that your post actually meant that it is a remake


But the NES Metroid is not Samus' first mission. That is what I am trying to tell you. Here is a quote from the Metroid manual:

"The space hunter chosen for this mission is Samus Aran. [She] is the greatest of all the space hunters and has completed numerous missions that everybody thought were absolutely impossible." - Metroid prologue

I hope you see why Zero Mission is a prequel now. Metroid had missions before it, and Zero Mission is the first of those missions.

Quote:
13M13: Ask one artist to redesign an elevator featured in a prior game...


Why would one do that though, unless it was to create a new mission?
DominicanZero
2006-03-26 02:39:23 am
直死の魔眼使い
This thread just made me split my chest apart in laughter, the laughter I'd been missing this whole week. Thanks for the great show, Dai.
ajbolt89
2006-03-26 03:05:49 am
lol no way
Where uh, where does it "definitively" as you'd say, state that Metroid (for the NES) is indeed NOT Samus's first mission? I'd like something other than "Oh, it says here that MZM is her first mission, so then Metroid can't be.", because you've still not shown anything that directly states Metroid to not be her first mission.
13M13
2006-03-26 06:23:43 am
l'appel du vide
Dai, I'm curious...when does Zero Mission take place in your timeline?
Laney
(user is banned)
2006-03-26 07:31:21 am
Dai, do you have a girlfriend or something else which keeps you somekind in a reallife you don't have?

I mean look at you, why are you digging in this thing so deep?
Because you have the time, and because of this you are a failure. You don't have better things to do.
And by the way I read just one paragraph and your logic is amazingly worst.
nate
2006-03-26 08:48:56 am
does anyone have any insight into why non-native speakers use "worst" like that? i've been thinking about what he said in german and i can't really think of it as anything other than "unglaublich schlecht" or something like that, i.e. bad (not the superlative). then again, i'm coming from an english perspective, so i could easily have no idea what i'm talking about.
transience
2006-03-26 09:31:36 am
twenty eight fifty
i demand this dai person debate with chanoire on a controversial issue, say abortion or the death penalty or tool-assisted speedruns. i am fairly certain that the site would be rendered unconscious thanks to a lack of bandwidth or hard drive space.
Dr. Trence
2006-03-26 11:33:48 am
i think Chanoire could deal with Dai. I tried to make my point, but his logic is just messing with him again. im sorry dai, but i am sticking with ZM being a remake.

Quote from Dai:
Becoming a prequel? It IS a prequel. The ads all state that it is Samus' first mission. Metroid had numerous missions take place before it. If Metroid has missions before it, and Zero Mission is the FIRST mission, then doesn't that make Zero Mission a prequel?

no, it makes it a remake. the ads dont have anything to do with the fact that its a remake. and this is what i meant by bogus, you think that a simple, innocent commercial is going to tell us that ZM is a prequel? And where did you get that "If metroid has missions before it"? The NES metroid clearly states that it is Samus' first mission as a bounty hunter. read the manual.

look, you cant depend on pictures and videos of a commercial to tell us that ZM is a prequel. "Remake" means in different words that they make an old game into a better, more graphic, kinda game. They also add new features like samus crashing into zebes, landing on the mother ship. and plus, when i read that thing you gave us on the first page, i saw a guy who gave a offical link saying from nintendo that ZM IS a remake. you cant argue against nintendo when they say its a remake.
SABERinBLUE
2006-03-26 01:01:38 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from transience:
i demand this dai person debate with chanoire on a controversial issue, say abortion or the death penalty or tool-assisted speedruns. i am fairly certain that the site would be rendered unconscious thanks to a lack of bandwidth or hard drive space.


Indeed.  It will be like RS's 1:00 100% but with words.
trh
2006-03-26 02:13:17 pm
Quote from Laney:
Dai, do you have a girlfriend or something else which keeps you somekind in a reallife you don't have?

I mean look at you, why are you digging in this thing so deep?
Because you have the time, and because of this you are a failure. You don't have better things to do.
And by the way I read just one paragraph and your logic is amazingly worst.


Seriously Laney, shut up.
UchihaSasuke
2006-03-26 03:58:33 pm
my umbrella goes directly to Bankai
i didn't read the bulk of the thread but wouldn't the argument die due to the fact that MZM replaces Metroid 1 in the timeline and story-wise according to Nintendo?
Chanoire
2006-03-26 04:20:30 pm
Hey, now.  I'm not the one making lengthy replies to this.  My style with this sort of thing is more to make one or two sarcastic comments, unless it's more a case of amazing stupidity than closeminded fanaticism.  Zeffie, now, would be a good match for Dai in cramming the maximum number of words into a single thread.
Dai Grepher
2006-03-26 06:41:17 pm
Quote:
ajbolt89: Where uh, where does it "definitively" as you'd say, state that Metroid (for the NES) is indeed NOT Samus's first mission? I'd like something other than "Oh, it says here that MZM is her first mission, so then Metroid can't be.", because you've still not shown anything that directly states Metroid to not be her first mission.


Yes I did. I quoted the Metroid prologue. It states:

"The space hunter chosen for this mission is Samus Aran. [She] is the greatest of all the space hunters and has completed numerous missions that everybody thought were absolutely impossible."

Clearly, Metroid had missions before it. Clearly, Samus was known as the greatest bounty hunter by the time Metroid took place.

The box states that it is her first mission. The commercial states that it is her first adventure as a bounty hunter. This means that Zero Mission must come before Metroid, since Metroid had missions before it and Zero Mission is the first mission.

Quote:
13M13: Dai, I'm curious...when does Zero Mission take place in your timeline?


It is hard to give a date since the translation between 2000 and 20X5 is unclear. Assuming that 20X5's "X" means 10 as is the case with Roman numerals, I would say that Zero Mission takes place in 2013 or 2014 of the cosmic calander.
This allows Samus enough time to complete the missions between Zero Mission and Metroid (20X5), mentioned in the Metroid prologue. These missions may have been supervised by Adam Malkovich.

I base this on the Metroid online manga, which may or may not be canon. Sakamoto has made comments about it as if it were canon material. It cannot hurt to use it for dates, which is an unknown factor in the series.

According to the manga Samus is:

2000 - 3 yrs old
2011 - 14 yrs old
2013 - 16 yrs old
2014 - 17 yrs old

This means that in the following years:

2015 - 18 yrs old
2025 - 28 yrs old

I can see Samus being 18 in Metroid, but she looks older in Super Metroid as well as Zero Mission. If she was 16-17 in Zero Mission, it allows the Metroid manual to have more backstory in that Samus was mistaken by many people to be a male cyborg that cannot be separated from the suit. This may have been Samus' plan all along, so that she could become a bounty hunter much earlier in life and stop the pirates as soon as possible.

Granted, Samus does look a little older than 17 in Zero Mission's images, but it could just be a case of her looking older than she really is. The Chozo DNA may play a part as well.

Again, this is just a guess based on the manga of how old Samus is in each game, and remember that the "X" in 20X5 could mean 2025.

Under this assumption, Samus may have waited until 2015 (18 yrs) to join the Federation's Space Hunter program legitimately, then complete numerous missions as mentioned in the Metroid manual, then go on the Metroid mission in 2025 (18 yrs). The male cyborg rumor would then either be a rumor started by others, or a rumor started by Samus to protect her true identity. It is probably the first, since Samus does reveal herself in Metroid, and by Metroid Prime even the pirates know who she is.

To make a long story longer, as far as game placement goes, I think it is like this:

Zero Mission
(numerous missions)
Metroid
Metroid Prime 1 and 2
Metroid II
Super Metroid
Metroid Fusion

I have not placed Hunters yet.

However, I am open to the possibility of the Primes taking place after Super Metroid, and this is because of Angseth's comment about Samus blowing up a planet full of Space Pirates. That could also mean "blowing up enough pirates to fill a planet" but it is not certain.

The last thing to note is where I think the TELLING of Zero Mission is placed in the timeline. Since Zero Mission is a flashback being told at a later date, it does not happen at the same time as Zero Mission's events. The timeline on the bonus disc may indicate the telling taking place after Metroid and before Metroid Prime, but I personally think it takes place after Metroid Fusion. Not only would that expand the amount of time this mission's details have been kept secret, but it also matches Samus' state of mind in Metroid Fusion. Contemplative, reflective, remembering past events of a life she feels as "ended" in a sense.

Not only does Samus reminisce about her past, which sets up the telling of Zero Mission perfectly, but Metroid Fusion also has a link option with Zero Mission. Doing so opens up a new picture gallery of Samus as an older woman remembering her childhood and her past training under the Chozo. I think this also indicates a link between Fusion and Zero Mission in a timeframe sense.

Quote:
transience: i demand this dai person debate with chanoire on a controversial issue, say abortion or the death penalty or tool-assisted speedruns.


It would depend what her stance is. Is there a forum for those topics on Metroid 2002?

Quote:
Dr. Trence: no, it makes it a remake. the ads dont have anything to do with the fact that its a remake. and this is what i meant by bogus, you think that a simple, innocent commercial is going to tell us that ZM is a prequel? And where did you get that "If metroid has missions before it"? The NES metroid clearly states that it is Samus' first mission as a bounty hunter. read the manual.


OK, the commercial states that it is Samus first adventure as a bounty hunter, which contradicts Metroid's prologue stating that Samus had missions before this and that Samus was the greatest bounty hunter by the time Metroid took place.

I also quoted the prologue in my last post and again in this post. Scroll to the top of this post to read it.

Quote:
Dr. Trence: look, you cant depend on pictures and videos of a commercial to tell us that ZM is a prequel. "Remake" means in different words that they make an old game into a better, more graphic, kinda game. They also add new features like samus crashing into zebes, landing on the mother ship. and plus, when i read that thing you gave us on the first page, i saw a guy who gave a offical link saying from nintendo that ZM IS a remake. you cant argue against nintendo when they say its a remake.


Nintendo did not say it was a remake. Sakamoto said it remakes gameplay but not story. That means it is not a remake of Metroid.

Quote:
PiccoloCube: i didn't read the bulk of the thread but wouldn't the argument die due to the fact that MZM replaces Metroid 1 in the timeline and story-wise according to Nintendo?


The remake argument would, because Zero Mission cannot and does not replace Metroid in the timeline. Doing so would make everything in consistent.
SABERinBLUE
2006-03-26 06:48:44 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from Dai Grepher:
The remake argument would, because Zero Mission cannot and does not replace Metroid in the timeline. Doing so would make everything in consistent.


Heh.  Welcome to the world of video game storylines.  Have you ever played a game series called Castlevania?  Or, dare I say, Mega Man?
Dr. Trence
2006-03-26 06:56:55 pm
Quote from Dai:
Clearly, Metroid had missions before it. Clearly, Samus was known as the greatest bounty hunter by the time Metroid took place.

The box states that it is her first mission. The commercial states that it is her first adventure as a bounty hunter. This means that Zero Mission must come before Metroid, since Metroid had missions before it and Zero Mission is the first mission.


Samus was already a bounty hunter in the first Metroid. You think that she went to Zebes just to kill MB and the metroids on her own part? The GCF gave her that mission to inhiliate the metroids and Mother Brain. Question:

You said that "it HAS to be a prequel, since tourain wasnt completly destroyed", then how do you explain how Kraid and Ridley reformed so quickly, and how did even MB reform? In the first metroid, samus kills Ridley, in Prime (after metroid), ridley was in his cybernetic form, created with robotic features, if that was the case, then why didnt ridley have the same features in NES metroid? If samus killed ridley in the first ZM, then why did he look the same in the NES version? (of course, he was much smaller, but technically, he was the same)

And with Kraid, when samus destroyed him in ZM, how did he come back so fast? Once again, in Prime, there is a scan in one of the Pirate bases that says they were still reproducing his bio-form, if that was the case, then why didnt that happen in the NES metroid that you say happens after ZM?
UchihaSasuke
2006-03-26 08:08:53 pm
my umbrella goes directly to Bankai
the "Zero Mission" in MZM refers to the game being the very first mission of Samus dealing with Metroids. she was already a bounty hunter with many completed missions. the following Metroid games are her next Metroid-related missions.
MZM and M1 = go to planet Zebes and destroy the Metroids along Mother Brain.
Prime = explore tallon IV and see what's up with the pirates there.
Prime 2 = explore Aether and see wtf happened with the GF troopers.
...
Metroid 2 = go to SR388 and destroy every Metroid around.
Metroid 3 = get back the stolen Metroid from the Pirates.
Metroid 4 = explore the BSL station and see wtf happened after the explosion.

that's how all Metroid-related missions begin. the games' happenings are how they develop and at the end of the game we see how she accomplishes each mission.

you are mis-understanding the "Zero Mission" subtitle. that's the only way i can guess why you have that argument.
transience
2006-03-26 08:12:22 pm
twenty eight fifty
Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Indeed.  It will be like RS's 1:00 100% but with words.


as if. more like people's first run through prime 2.
nate
2006-03-26 08:22:59 pm
yeah, it took me a while to get it, too. i'm pretty sure he meant the bandwidth situation from valentine's day weekend 2004.
Kejardon
2006-03-26 08:46:58 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Quote:
Metroid: Zero Mission begins right where the original Metroid game opened, as interstellar bounty hunter Samus Aran infiltrates Mother Brain's massive complex below the surface of planet Zebes. It becomes immediately obvious, however, that this adventure is very different from the first mission


How does that second sentence make sense unless 'first mission' is referring to the original Metroid?

As I've said before, 'First mission' often implies 'First game'. Being unable to understand connotations is an exercise of ignorance, not an exercise of logic.
Of course, no matter how many times and ways people explain why ZM being a remake makes far more sense, you'll never admit it, but I'm curious what argument you'll make to make this fit your theory. :P

And no copping out and ignoring my main point. You did that on the MDb already.
Dr. Trence
2006-03-26 08:54:57 pm
took the words right out my mouth. look Dai, im sure all of us know that nintendo never intended to make it a prequel. they wouldnt spend this much time just to make us curious by laying out clues all over these idiotic things you came up with. And besides, you have gotten WAY into this debate, so maybe its safe to say that you admit that it was a remake all along. We have giving you twice the info than you have given us and your still fighting. And besides, who cares if it is a prequel? we're not going to get all hyper and over-active about it. So even if it is, it doesnt really matter.
transience
2006-03-26 10:18:00 pm
twenty eight fifty
Quote from nate:
yeah, it took me a while to get it, too. i'm pretty sure he meant the bandwidth situation from valentine's day weekend 2004.


oh, duh. i feel like photoshopping that graph you made now.
SAL
2006-03-26 10:27:55 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Things that should be the same are not.


hm...maybe cause there not the same game. probly thats why there not the same.
BioSpark
2006-03-26 10:31:42 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Things that should be the same are not.

Why do they have to be exactly the same?
spineshark
2006-03-26 11:29:02 pm
in the name of justice!
Isn't Samus' hair brown in Metroid 1?

Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Heh. Welcome to the world of video game storylines. Have you ever played a game series called Castlevania? Or, dare I say, Mega Man?

Yeah, and it's not like this is only in video game storylines...say, Star Wars?

MMX6 is hilarious like that...

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that the "X" does not stand for "10" and that a remake doesn't just have to be the same old game with a new feature or two.  Also, Super Metroid doesn't say "I went and blew up the Mother Brain, then I went back a year later, and I did it again" so now you have two competing inconsistencies!

But seriously, if you're going to stir up a bunch of storyline arguments, pick a game that actually has a good story for it...like...I dunno, I guess I haven't really played any. >_>
Dr. Trence
2006-03-26 11:32:05 pm
yea, ZM's is WAY too short to have an argument going for endless pages. thats why i hate these kind of debates. They never end..