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Quote:
Dragonfangs: You can't retell a story that's never been told before, so Sakamoto is obviously referring to the first Metroid game there. However, retelling Metroid through the manual and port is possible, but unlikely.


Well, since Zero Mission is a game where Samus retells the story of her first mission, it could be seen as a retelling of a mission we have not heard the details of yet.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: "Rework" implies change to something already finished. To say you're reworking something that you're currently working on for the first time doesn't make sense.


Of course it does. They could have had the beta version of Zero Mission then reworked it to have newer features. Zero Mission is the only game that Sakamoto refers to in that quote.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: Why would he even mention remakes if he does not consider ZM one? He is asked what was challenging when making ZM and mentions negative aspects of remakes, clearly implying ZM is a remake.


He could be implying that the entire game would be seen as a remake, which it is not. We know that Sakamoto considers the gameplay to have been remade. I think this statement is showing that while gameplay was remade, there are still enough new things added to game overall to make it feel like a brand new game.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: "I wouldn't necessarily call it a remaking of the backstory" does NOT mean "It isn't a remaking of the backstory" and does not clearly indicate anything. My take on it is that he's reluctant to call it a remake because there's stuff added to it.


Not necessarily means, "something is not jsut because it may seem that way". Just because gameplay was remade does not mean the storyline was. Sakamoto is saying that it is not a remake of backstory.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: Actually, an attempt is neither a success nor a failure. If the attempt fails, then it is not an attempt at all, but rather a failure.


That did not make sense.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: Um...how does this help nintendo?


The more people think about a video game series, the more inclined they are to play it and buy new games.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: Indeed, the attempt is admirable. But it stops being admirable if one presses a point without sufficient logic to back it up.


What about all of the map, storyline, and game inconsistencies? All of the in-game facts indicate that it is a prequel.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: This is all based on nothing unless you can quote specific examples of Sakamoto saying something that incontrivertably supports your argument.


"So, to answer the question on why Zero Mission is based on the NES version of Metroid: our basic development concept was that we wanted to return to the roots of Metroid gameplay. I'm sure that you're aware that Metroid Fusion was a different style of game from all the Metroid titles up until then. We wanted to show people who had never played a Metroid game prior to Metroid Fusion, the roots of the Metroid franchise, that this is what Metroid is, this is the style of gameplay that Metroid sprang from..."

Zero Mission is merely based on Metroid, not a replacement. Also, a few gameplay references, and reference to the roots of the series.

"Of course, we want to expand the Metroid franchise in different ways. In the 2D games we haven't seen any real change in the Metroid gameplay. So that's something we want to challenge ourselves to do, add new elements to the Metroid franchise, and find new gameplay styles that we can give to the players in order to expand the franchise."

Another gameplay reference and a reference to gameplay styles.

"We've added new enemies, new items, and new puzzles to the game. So if we were to say it was a completely new game we wouldn't be entirely off-base. Obviously we used the original Metroid as the base for Zero Mission, and the concept was to take that original gameplay and rework it into something that felt fresh and new, while still keeping elements from the original game that people would be familiar with."

Again, they used Metroid as the base for Zero Mission, nothing more than that. Another gameplay reference and reference to the original gameplay style that they reworked into something new.

"One of our biggest challenges was to add enough elements to make the game feel like something that's new, while not straying far from the original Metroid, to lose the meaning of what we were trying to do. We spent a lot of time balancing those two elements in addition to actually working in elements that we hadn't seen before in a Metroid game, finding a way to implement them in Zero Mission...and then finding a way to balance this gameplay and make it into something people would enjoy."

What were they trying to do? Return the series to the roots by remaking classic gameplay and making it fresh and new at the same time. Also, another gameplay reference.

"We had a lot of challenges to face, but the biggest one for me was finding a way to implement this new style of gameplay at the end of the game. We spent a lot of time working on that, and I feel that it was something that turned out to be very good, and something new that feels like Metroid. So I'm glad we were able to get that into the game, in a form that we felt was complete and well done."

Style of gameplay. Also a reference to the game feeling like the Metroid gameplay formula.

"I wouldn't necessarily call it a remaking of the backstory. We've taken this opportunity to explore the backstory a little bit more. With Metroid Zero Mission not using text-based messaging or language in the game, we've used more visual cinematics to express the story through her recollections or memory. Through that, we've created a story that is open to interpretation to the player, and as people play I think they'll interpret Samus' past based on what they take on those cinematics. So I think in a way it's expanding on the story at the same time retaining some of the mystery of it."

He would not call it a remake of the backstory, rather an expansion. He refers to Samus' past, which also indicates a prequel. Explore the backstory. He also states that they created a story. How does a remake create a story? It does not, it simply retells one and remakes it, which Sakamoto said this was not.

"I can't say we're at the point where we'll regularly update the Metroid series, but I think if you look at what we've done with the recent Metroid games, you'll see that we've been really building on the series and the gameplay, and offering new experiences. Metroid Prime was obviously a change in the Metroid gameplay, and allowed both people who played Metroid games before to experience it again, as well as the people who may have never played a Metroid game before. And with Fusion what we tried to do was take the Metroid gameplay and use that in a more story-based game. This time with Zero Mission we really wanted to go back to the roots of the Metroid series, and introduce it to those people who are newer to the franchise, while at the same time building that experience and offering a new style of gameplay. I think what we're going to continue to do is to look at different possibilites with the Metroid franchise, ways that we can expand upon it. We don't have any precise plans, but I can definitely say that we are looking at ways to continue to advance the franchise."

Here he states that they are building on the series, and the gameplay and offering new experiences. Remakes only make old experiences anew. A new experience indicates a new adventure. Again, more references to offering a new style of gameplay. Finally he states that they will look for ways to expand upon the franchise. How does a remake expand? Not by making everything inconsistent, that is for sure.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: Also, I find it interesting that when other people quote Sakamoto at you, you say that the translated nature of the quotes make them vague at best, but when you reference Sakamoto, you say that his words concretely support your argument.


No I do not. I said that one word could be a reference to the first mission. That in no way suggests that the entire interview was mistranslated.
Quote:
He would not call it a remake of the backstory, rather an expansion. He refers to Samus' past, which also indicates a prequel.

Yep, because the flashback of her past as a little girl led by a Chozo occurs before she encounters Kraid and Ridley...wait, no, it doesn't.
Armor Guardian
Dai Grepher, you're hilarious! Keep up the good work with your flawed logic!
Look, witty text!
I know it is unwise of me to make this post, but the urge to do so has gotten the better of me...



Quote from Dai Grepher:
So we should not analyze things at all and should make inaccurate interpretations of information?


This is exactly what my post was talking about.  You're disecting everything I'm saying, and interpreting every piece in such a way that, in your mind, it becomes twisted out of context, and into a form that fits with what you want it to be.

I'm not saying that analyzation is a waste of time, and that all things should be taken at face value; I'm saying that there is such a thing as digging too deep into things to find meaning.  You have to stop inspecting individual pieces, and instead consider the big picture.



Quote from Dai Grepher:
Why not try and disprove my evidence, or show where my reasoning is unsound?


If you must ask this, then it only proves everything I've been saying.

...And I can say that with great confidence, because all but the last two sentences in my previous post address this.
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Well, since Zero Mission is a game where Samus retells the story of her first mission, it could be seen as a retelling of a mission we have not heard the details of yet.


Again, you cannot REtell a story that's never been told before

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Of course it does. They could have had the beta version of Zero Mission then reworked it to have newer features. Zero Mission is the only game that Sakamoto refers to in that quote.


So, basically, according to you, what he's saying is that one of the main concepts of the game is to rework it?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
He could be implying that the entire game would be seen as a remake, which it is not. We know that Sakamoto considers the gameplay to have been remade. I think this statement is showing that while gameplay was remade, there are still enough new things added to game overall to make it feel like a brand new game.


Seriously, the gameplay in Zero Mission is just as different from any Metroid game in the series as any other Metroid game.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Not necessarily means, "something is not jsut because it may seem that way". Just because gameplay was remade does not mean the storyline was. Sakamoto is saying that it is not a remake of backstory.


As I said, "I wouldn't necessarily call it" is not the same as "It is not". And he doesn't mention gameplay at all there, backstory however is mentioned, twice.


That said, I won't be touching this topic again, I've argued with people like you before, and seen arguments like these go bad, it's simply not worth it.
Cook of the Sea
I'm out as well.  I'm not here for the story, I'm here for the elite gaming. 

Dai, DF said as well as I could counters to your last post.  I will say two things here: 

An entirely new game is FAR more marketable than a remake.  If Nintendo could say that ZM was an entirely new story etc, they would have said so, clearly, in all the advertisements. 

"DIVE INTO SAMUS'S PAST, A NEW MISSION, BEFORE THE FIRST METROID GAME!"

or

"SAMUS'S ORIGINS FINALLY REVEALED!"

or

"ENJOY THIS NEW PIECE OF METROID HISTORY!"

they would not make people go to such great lengths to discover that it is not a remake.  They would rather have the money. 


My second point is that you clearly don't grasp something about digital game sprite art.  It's representational.  No actual structures are built in such a grid-like manner; the grid is merely a manner in which some self-congruence can be maintained for gameplay purposes.  As such, rendering a setting on a grid is a far more abstract endeavour than rendering it in three virtual dimensions like in Metroid Prime.  Ask two artists to draw the same elevator in a grid form and they'll do it different ways.  The grid form is not definitive because the actual elevator wouldn't look that way.  The variances between the games as you indicate them are merely different artists' renderings (or multiple renderings by the same artist) of the same setting. 

Unless you can find clear, hard, concrete examples of someone official saying "Metroid:  Zero Mission is not a remake of the first Metroid game" or "the events of Metroid:  Zero Mission are meant to occur before the events of the first Metroid game" you can prove nothing.  Know why that is?  Because the world you are analyzing does not exist.  All that we know concretely about it are what the developers say directly to us.  We cannot extrapolate based on what they say because we don't know how the rules work.  Your argument is unwinnable.
similarly, you can't win any more than he can.
Cook of the Sea
Right, that's why I said "I'm out" at the beginning of that post.  He's taken this to many forums and met with failure every time.  So I can assume that he's going to continue after failing here, and I'm letting him know that he, categorically, cannot win.
i think that this should stay open, though, at least for luke's and jason's benefits.
Cook of the Sea
Oh, of course.  I'd never lock a debate thread, least of all one I had participated in.
twenty eight fifty
hey, don't bring me in on this one. that means i have to read walls of text about something i don't care about.

conversely, i feel like a complete stranger here since i barely recognize a single person in the first 25 or so posts. i must be even more on sabbatical than i thought.
I notice how you guys always have discussions about storylines or things related to the story, but I believe some things are the way they are because the programmers just thought it better that way, not because they are trying to make everything fit into the storyline.
Quote:
Chanoire: Yep, because the flashback of her past as a little girl led by a Chozo occurs before she encounters Kraid and Ridley...wait, no, it doesn't.


"With Metroid Zero Mission not using text-based messaging or language in the game, we've used more visual cinematics to express the story through her recollections or memory."

That is a reference to the entire game buddy.

"Through that, we've created a story that is open to interpretation to the player, and as people play I think they'll interpret Samus' past based on what they take on those cinematics."

Yeah, the whole game, not just the flashbacks but the entire narration.

Quote:
RT-55J: Dai Grepher, you're hilarious! Keep up the good work with your flawed logic!


It is clear that you disagree. I accept your opinion on the game. However, you need not be redundant. If you have evidence that you would like to post or questions about the presentation then I would be happy to discuss them with you.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: Again, you cannot REtell a story that's never been told before


I has been told in the Metroid universe though. Therefore it is a retelling within the game world itself. However, Sakamoto was probably talking about retelling Metroid through the use of the port and prologue revision.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: So, basically, according to you, what he's saying is that one of the main concepts of the game is to rework it?


"...with Zero Mission we had the game concept of getting back to the roots of Metroid, and at the same time reworking that game by implementing newer features"

He basically states that they made Zero Mission with original gameplay, and then had to rework it by implementing newer features.

"...the concept was to take that original gameplay and rework it into something that felt fresh and new, while still keeping elements from the original game that people would be familiar with."

In this he said that they reworked gameplay of Metroid to be more modern for Zero Mission's style.

So this consistently sends the message that they remade Metroid's gameplay, then had to rework that by implementing newer features, but not so that they would lose the style they were looking for.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: Seriously, the gameplay in Zero Mission is just as different from any Metroid game in the series as any other Metroid game.


It feels a lot like Metroid's movement style, until you start gaining the Super Metroid power ups, then it feels more like Fusion. However, Sakamoto obviously thinks that it is like the original more then the others because that is what he was going for. Perhaps it feels new because you have not played Metroid enough.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: As I said, "I wouldn't necessarily call it" is not the same as "It is not". And he doesn't mention gameplay at all there, backstory however is mentioned, twice.


Yes, and it is mentioned as not being a remake.

"Not necessarily" means that something is NOT even though other things suggest it is.

Definitions:
 
1. inevitably: inevitably, or in every case
This route isn't necessarily the best one.

2. unavoidably: following as an unavoidable result or consequence
Voting was a necessarily slow and complex process.

So, “not necessarily” does not mean, “maybe, maybe not”, it means “not”.

Quote:
Dragonfangs: That said, I won't be touching this topic again, I've argued with people like you before, and seen arguments like these go bad, it's simply not worth it.


Thanks for posting.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: An entirely new game is FAR more marketable than a remake. If Nintendo could say that ZM was an entirely new story etc, they would have said so, clearly, in all the advertisements.


They did.

“THE FULL STORY OF SAMUS ARAN'S FIRST MISSION FINALLY UNFOLDS...” – Zero Mission box

“Experience the first of Samus's legendary adventures…” – Zero Mission box

http://www.gameexpress.com/images/product/original/045496733445B.JPG

“Sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a deadly alien species, Samus meets her match in the form of the mysterious Metroids -- energy-sapping creatures that emerge from an oversized cerebrum beneath the planet's surface. Samus isn't the only traveler searching for the Metroids. A band of Space Pirates has touched down to extract the curious creatures and use them as weapons. Samus must thwart the pirates, but they are wily and will prove to be more trouble than Samus expects.” – Zero Mission game page, Nintendo.com

http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: "DIVE INTO SAMUS'S PAST, A NEW MISSION, BEFORE THE FIRST METROID GAME!"


" …Metroid: Zero Mission. Her first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter." – Zero Mission commercial

http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/8fc2b41a-8547-4c17-88cd-cfc5c7ae81a2.mov

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: or

"SAMUS'S ORIGINS FINALLY REVEALED!"


“For the first time ever, the real story behind Samus Aran’s first mission is told, including new details about the origins of the legendary bounty hunter.” – Zero Mission website

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5282/zeromissionstaement9re.png

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: or

"ENJOY THIS NEW PIECE OF METROID HISTORY!"

they would not make people go to such great lengths to discover that it is not a remake. They would rather have the money.


They did do this, and many people do think it is a prequel.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: My second point is that you clearly don't grasp something about digital game sprite art. It's representational. No actual structures are built in such a grid-like manner; the grid is merely a manner in which some self-congruence can be maintained for gameplay purposes. As such, rendering a setting on a grid is a far more abstract endeavour than rendering it in three virtual dimensions like in Metroid Prime. Ask two artists to draw the same elevator in a grid form and they'll do it different ways.


Ask one artist to re-draw an elevator featured in a prior game and he will re-draw it perfectly. That is my point. They could have made Tourian match, but they did not because it was not supposed to match. They are not the same mission.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: The grid form is not definitive because the actual elevator wouldn't look that way. The variances between the games as you indicate them are merely different artists' renderings (or multiple renderings by the same artist) of the same setting.


The room beneath the Mother Brain pod in Super Metroid is damaged by the blast from the Metroid bomb. Shouldn’t Metroid’s remake display the same room to have the same damage? Yes, it should, regardless of what artistic style someone wants. They should match but they do not. Many areas do not match, which diminishes the remake linkage between the two games.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: Unless you can find clear, hard, concrete examples of someone official saying "Metroid: Zero Mission is not a remake of the first Metroid game" or "the events of Metroid: Zero Mission are meant to occur before the events of the first Metroid game" you can prove nothing. Know why that is? Because the world you are analyzing does not exist. All that we know concretely about it are what the developers say directly to us. We cannot extrapolate based on what they say because we don't know how the rules work. Your argument is unwinnable.


Look at the links above please.

Quote:
nate: similarly, you can't win any more than he can.


True. No official has ever stated that Zero Mission was a remake of another game, just that it remade gameplay from Metroid as well as copied elements from other games in the series.

Quote:
SABERinBLUE: Right, that's why I said "I'm out" at the beginning of that post. He's taken this to many forums and met with failure every time. So I can assume that he's going to continue after failing here, and I'm letting him know that he, categorically, cannot win.


I succeed by making people think about it.
Heres how I see it. All the things you quoted from the box only say something like "the full story", implying that they only added more to zero mission, not made an entirely differently story. The map design is different because zero mission has a whole different type of gameplay and graphics. The programmers wouldnt bother to make the two games exact replicas, and again, some of it is different because of the gameplay. And finally, I believe that everyone knows its a remake, and it would almost be like "betraying" them if nintendo reveals that zero mission has a totally different story.
my umbrella goes directly to Bankai


the end
Dai: Explain how the advertising phrases you quoted could NOT apply to a remake.  Or what phrases you would expect them to use if it were a remake that are different from what they did use.

PiccoloCube: I know at least one person here has objected to the casual characterization of "retarded" like that.  However true the basic sentiment about Internet arguments is, it's a pretty obnoxious picture.
my umbrella goes directly to Bankai
my point is that people shouldn't put too much though in just a remake of a game. if they were developing a new game and making it fit, it would be more understandable but arguing about if MZM is a remake or not is just.... silly. nothing will make the game suddendly morph.

also, the pic was to pull people out from the debate and make them have a laugh.
no offense Dai, but all this info is bogus. the advertisments dont have anything to do with it becoming a prequel. the rest of your info doesnt have anything to do with it. now, i have a question:

if it ever was a prequel, then wouldnt that alter the official metroid time-line, then screwing up the story? The MP2 bonus disk has the metroid time-line on it, (the official one) and it doesnt have ZM before metroid. What you're saying is that nintendo made this typo on purpose, then hid the fact that ZM is a prequel? like what dark knight said in an earlier post, if that is true, then we, the people would think that they "betrayed" us. why would nintendo do that? nintendo isnt stupid enough to do that sorta thing, and if you theroy is true, and gets out to the public, then that would ruin nintendos rep.

answer that, and tell me why nintendo did those things on purpose just so they could hide the fact the ZM is a prequel.
Quote:
Nintendo does not present Zero Mission as a retelling. They present it as a new adventure.
It is easy for the pirates to recover quickly since Zero Mission's facilities were not destroyed.


er wtf nintendo made the game. if they made it a remake then its a remake.
was that from Dai? if it was, then he just told us from his own words that its a remake. dOOd, logic

edit:
Quote from Dai:
“For the first time ever, the real story behind Samus Aran’s first mission is told, including new details about the origins of the legendary bounty hunter.” – Zero Mission website

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5282/zeromissionstaement9re.png


doesnt say anything about a new story. it basically means
"Experience samus' first adventure, with new details about her true past"

first time is referring to samus' first mission, mission is the subject of the sentence, first is referring to the subject, first is also the adj., which explains that the mission was her first, making it "Metroid". learned that in CORE class a while back, a pointless lesson, but it does prove that your post actually meant that it is a remake
yes that was from dai.
l'appel du vide
Quote from Dai:
Ask one artist to re-draw an elevator featured in a prior game and he will re-draw it perfectly.


Ask one artist to redesign an elevator featured in a prior game...
what was that about?
in the name of justice!
Quote from 13M13:
Quote from Dai:
Ask one artist to re-draw an elevator featured in a prior game and he will re-draw it perfectly.


Ask one artist to redesign an elevator featured in a prior game...

Yeah, personally I'd feel pretty shitty as an artist if my boss told me I had to go copy a bunch of sprites, pixel-perfect, from a ten-year-old video game.