MZM Timeline Status Discussion

2006-06-03 01:48:59 am

ok, short post this time, ive been busy playing WoW and RS to be posting here... but i just noticed something Dai said...

Quote:

That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.

hmmm.... added stroyline eh? so, if getting to the starting point on our own could be counted in as if SM was a remake of the original, then why oculdnt the suitless samus sequence, changed mother brain battle, and map changes be counted as "added storyline" too?

Axion

2006-06-03 02:57:02 am

Much like the "remake" of War of the Worlds, I look at it this way.

Metroid Zero Mission is not a remake of Metroid, but merely a slightly different interperitation of the same story.

arkarian

2006-06-03 01:35:42 pm

red chamber dream

I don't think it was ever intended to be a real "remake", but it's certainly the same adventure ocurring at the same time with the same characters.

Dai Grepher

2006-06-05 10:25:30 pm

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Don't be so ludicrously arrogant. Just because you do not agree with the other side or see its reasoning does not mean the other side has no case. I've lost all respect for you.

They do not have a case. They say remakes change things and point to movies or other games. They have not submitted a shred of evidence supporting their claim.

Quote from nn12000:

Normally, I would sit here and try to convince Dai that ZM is a remake of M, and that they do fall into the same timeline position, but I have better things to do with my time then sit here and type oversized posts about ZM.

You could do that by posting evidence that it is a remake.

Quote from nn12000:

WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER IF ZM IS A REMAKE OR NOT? ASK YOURSELF THAT WHEN YOU SEE THAT DAI, WHY DOES IT MATTER? It's just a game that was thrown into the series. Does it really matter if ZM is a remake? Honestly.

It does to those who are fans of the series. It is better for the series to make sense and have as many games as possible.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Allow me to elaborate more on retroactive continuity.

No thanks. Wikipedia is wrong about retcons, and some of their users misuse the term, just as you do. Retroactive continuity by definition means past to present consistency. Edits, subtractions, and rewrites are called revisions, re-envisionings, or re-imaginings.

Quote from Doctor ?:

More Dai Grepher logic: "The background artwork is completely different, and there is a ledge missing between the two games. Therefore these are two entirely different games."

HA! I see the you have nothing to refute this logic with. I will take this as you conceding the point.

Quote from Doctor ?:

I think you just zinged yourself there.

I think you need to go back and see what I am replying to. If you agree with me on that point, then you agree that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Don't believe everything Nintendo says. Remember the Zelda video for when the GameCube first came out? We got Celda instead.

You mean, do not believe what Nintendo says when they support your argument. In reality, I do not. However, you seem to be the one with the double standard.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Nintendo makes Metroid. Later on down the road, they want to improve upon Samus' first game, because she's become such an icon to Nintendo's fans.

So they make Super Metroid, and redesign the levels, add new items, and "retcon" the storyline through a retelling of those events.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Now answer me this. In the manual for Zero Mission it says that Zero Mission lets you relive Samus' original mission, and that it retells the story of said mission.

It does not say that in the Zero Mission manual.

Quote from Doctor ?:

How can you retell and relive something that hasn't happened yet? You can't. Therefore, Zero Mission can not be a brand new game, because it's not a mission which was never told. The mission in Zero Mission is the mission in the NES Metroid - hence why you can relive it, and why it can be retold.

Samus told the tale of Zero Mission for the first time. This cannot be Metroid because Metroid has been told numerous times before this. Zero Mission retold Samus' first mission, not her Metroid mission. Before she told it, the details of the mission were vague and mostly unknown. That is when Samus told the tale herself and revealed the true story of her first mission.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Are the graphics the same? No. Is the level layout the same? No. But is the storyline the same? Absolutely.

Zero Mission did not even have Fake Kraid! How can you say the storyline is the same? Did Samus fight all of the Zero Mission mini-bosses in Metroid? No, she did not. The stories are very different, just as Super Metroid's is different.

Quote from Doctor ?:

You go from level to level in just about the same exact way in the NES Metroid, fight the bosses in just about the same exact order as in the NES Metroid. It's a remake. Get over it already.

There is no order in any of those games. Sequence breaking allows players to chose their own paths. I will understand that it is a remake as soon as I get some undeniable proof that it is.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?

They do need to be similar for both Zero Mission and Super Metroid to be remakes of Metroid. If they are different in design, then they are different games. Both Zero Mission and Super Metroid are different adventures.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

The map layouts for Metroid and ZM are very similar. They each have Brinstar, Norfair, Tourian, and the boss lairs almost in the same place, with the elevators to access them around the same location as well. Take that and compare it to Super. Are the layouts anywhere near the same? No. Brinstar and Norfair (And Crateria, for that matter) are in the same general location compared to each other, but that's it. Super's rooms reference the past adventure all across Zebes. (You can see this quite easily in the first few minutes after landing through the wrecked Tourian and the escape shaft.)

But you are pointing out differences. According to remake logic, remakes are different by nature. Therefore the new design in Super Metroid could just be an example of what they wanted to change about Metroid when they remade it.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Have you ever considered the fact that they may have wanted it to look that way compared to what it looks like in Super, not Metroid? Prime even states in a Pirate Log that half of the surviving Pirates stay behind and rebuild Zebes.

Prime states that pirates went back to Zebes, not stayed there. If you are reading the retrofaction on-line manual then you are reading a slightly inaccurate copy. Now, about your point. If they had Super Metroid in mind for the ceiling and did not want it to copy Super Metroid, then why didn't they also make Mother Brain's room copy Super Metroid, since it would HAVE to as a remake? Also, why be different from Super Metroid? What is so bad about making a room look how it should even if it means making it look like one of Super Metroid's rooms as well?

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Why can't they have taken the caverns from ZM and turn them into the ones from Super?

Because the underground facilities were not destroyed in Zero Mission, as seen by the option to return to those areas after the explosion.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.

That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.

Quote from LDreamNinja:

This proves nothing. If we are right, nothing in M1 is cannon anymore, save that which is reflected in MZM. Your argument only holds up from one angle.

Metroid II also documents Metroid as Samus' greatest achievement. It would not do so if that were her only achievement because it would undermine the purpose of giving it such prestige in the first place. You are also forgetting that Zero Mission's version of Metroid's backstory also states that numerous missions took place before Metroid. Therefore it is canon and you are wrong in regard to the manual as well.

Quote from LDreamNinja:

This is not true. If it was though, you would be contradicting yourself.
A lack of changes signifies that you have *gasp* the same thing.

No, the creation of a new game signifies that you have a different thing.

Quote from LDreamNinja:

For the most part, not only were the layouts, puzzles and specific platform arrangements preserved, the overall color of each zone was kept, despite modern advances in color pallets and texturing

You have no idea what you are talking about. You did not even list that the Kraid Hideout areas are gray and blue in Metroid but gray and purple in Zero Mission. The green area on Metroid's hideout is also different from Zero Mission's blue and green mix. Also, what states that the pirates made the bubble doors? Ahh, you are just ignoring more of the facts.

Quote from LDreamNinja:

Artistic license is acceptable in a remake/ retelling.

What about lack of such? The Zero Mission designs look like a four-year-old made them. If you still want to hold that theory, then I guess all of the differences in Super Metroid's designs are examples of artistic license in remakes too.

Quote from LDreamNinja:

Marketing must be forgiven for being concise. It does make a better ad. Many players don't care about the intricacies of the story anyway..

I know, they are called remake theorists. To those that do regard the facts however, we the prequelists acknowledge these facts as proof that the game takes place before Metroid as the first mission.

Quote from LDreamNinja:

more easyfication by Nintendo.

Yes, they made it easier to see that it is not a remake of Metroid.

Quote from Supuh:

ok, short post this time, ive been busy playing WoW and RS to be posting here... but i just noticed something Dai said...

That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.

hmmm.... added stroyline eh? so, if getting to the starting point on our own could be counted in as if SM was a remake of the original, then why oculdnt the suitless samus sequence, changed mother brain battle, and map changes be counted as "added storyline" too?

That is my point exactly. The answer is that neither one can be considered "added storyline". These are instances of new storylines being added to the series.

So I propose a deal to the remake side. I will stop arguing that Super Metroid is a remake, if your side stops arguing that Zero Mission is a remake. Deal?

[quote="SABERinBLUE"] Don't be so ludicrously arrogant. Just because you do not agree with the other side or see its reasoning does not mean the other side has no case. I've lost all respect for you.[/quote]

They do not have a case. They say remakes change things and point to movies or other games. They have not submitted a shred of evidence supporting their claim.

[quote="nn12000"] Normally, I would sit here and try to convince Dai that ZM is a remake of M, and that they do fall into the same timeline position, but I have better things to do with my time then sit here and type oversized posts about ZM.[/quote]

You could do that by posting evidence that it is a remake.

[quote="nn12000"] WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER IF ZM IS A REMAKE OR NOT? ASK YOURSELF THAT WHEN YOU SEE THAT DAI, WHY DOES IT MATTER? It's just a game that was thrown into the series. Does it really matter if ZM is a remake? Honestly.[/quote]

It does to those who are fans of the series. It is better for the series to make sense and have as many games as possible.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Allow me to elaborate more on retroactive continuity.[/quote]

No thanks. Wikipedia is wrong about retcons, and some of their users misuse the term, just as you do. Retroactive continuity by definition means past to present consistency. Edits, subtractions, and rewrites are called revisions, re-envisionings, or re-imaginings.

[quote="Doctor ?"] More Dai Grepher logic: "The background artwork is completely different, and there is a ledge missing between the two games. Therefore these are two entirely different games." [/quote]

HA! I see the you have nothing to refute this logic with. I will take this as you conceding the point.

[quote="Doctor ?"] I think you just zinged yourself there.[/quote]

I think you need to go back and see what I am replying to. If you agree with me on that point, then you agree that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Don't believe everything Nintendo says. Remember the Zelda video for when the GameCube first came out? We got Celda instead.[/quote]

You mean, do not believe what Nintendo says when they support your argument. In reality, I do not. However, you seem to be the one with the double standard.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Nintendo makes Metroid. Later on down the road, they want to improve upon Samus' first game, because she's become such an icon to Nintendo's fans. [/quote]

So they make Super Metroid, and redesign the levels, add new items, and "retcon" the storyline through a retelling of those events.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Now answer me this. In the manual for Zero Mission it says that Zero Mission lets you relive Samus' original mission, and that it retells the story of said mission.[/quote]

It does not say that in the Zero Mission manual.

[quote="Doctor ?"] How can you retell and relive something that hasn't happened yet? You can't. Therefore, Zero Mission can not be a brand new game, because it's not a mission which was never told. The mission in Zero Mission is the mission in the NES Metroid - hence why you can relive it, and why it can be retold.[/quote]

Samus told the tale of Zero Mission for the first time. This cannot be Metroid because Metroid has been told numerous times before this. Zero Mission retold Samus' first mission, not her Metroid mission. Before she told it, the details of the mission were vague and mostly unknown. That is when Samus told the tale herself and revealed the true story of her first mission.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Are the graphics the same? No. Is the level layout the same? No. But is the storyline the same? Absolutely.[/quote]

Zero Mission did not even have Fake Kraid! How can you say the storyline is the same? Did Samus fight all of the Zero Mission mini-bosses in Metroid? No, she did not. The stories are very different, just as Super Metroid's is different.

[quote="Doctor ?"] You go from level to level in just about the same exact way in the NES Metroid, fight the bosses in just about the same exact order as in the NES Metroid. It's a remake. Get over it already.[/quote]

There is no order in any of those games. Sequence breaking allows players to chose their own paths. I will understand that it is a remake as soon as I get some undeniable proof that it is.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?[/quote]

They do need to be similar for both Zero Mission and Super Metroid to be remakes of Metroid. If they are different in design, then they are different games. Both Zero Mission and Super Metroid are different adventures.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] The map layouts for Metroid and ZM are very similar. They each have Brinstar, Norfair, Tourian, and the boss lairs almost in the same place, with the elevators to access them around the same location as well. Take that and compare it to Super. Are the layouts anywhere near the same? No. Brinstar and Norfair (And Crateria, for that matter) are in the same general location compared to each other, but that's it. Super's rooms reference the past adventure all across Zebes. (You can see this quite easily in the first few minutes after landing through the wrecked Tourian and the escape shaft.)[/quote]

But you are pointing out differences. According to remake logic, remakes are different by nature. Therefore the new design in Super Metroid could just be an example of what they wanted to change about Metroid when they remade it.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Have you ever considered the fact that they may have wanted it to look that way compared to what it looks like in Super, not Metroid? Prime even states in a Pirate Log that half of the surviving Pirates stay behind and rebuild Zebes.[/quote]

Prime states that pirates went back to Zebes, not stayed there. If you are reading the retrofaction on-line manual then you are reading a slightly inaccurate copy. Now, about your point. If they had Super Metroid in mind for the ceiling and did not want it to copy Super Metroid, then why didn't they also make Mother Brain's room copy Super Metroid, since it would HAVE to as a remake? Also, why be different from Super Metroid? What is so bad about making a room look how it should even if it means making it look like one of Super Metroid's rooms as well?

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Why can't they have taken the caverns from ZM and turn them into the ones from Super?[/quote]

Because the underground facilities were not destroyed in Zero Mission, as seen by the option to return to those areas after the explosion.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.[/quote]

That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.

[quote="LDreamNinja"] This proves nothing. If we are right, nothing in M1 is cannon anymore, save that which is reflected in MZM. Your argument only holds up from one angle.[/quote]

Metroid II also documents Metroid as Samus' greatest achievement. It would not do so if that were her only achievement because it would undermine the purpose of giving it such prestige in the first place. You are also forgetting that Zero Mission's version of Metroid's backstory also states that numerous missions took place before Metroid. Therefore it is canon and you are wrong in regard to the manual as well.

[quote="LDreamNinja"] This is not true. If it was though, you would be contradicting yourself. 
A lack of changes signifies that you have *gasp* the same thing.[/quote]

No, the creation of a new game signifies that you have a different thing.

[quote="LDreamNinja"] For the most part, not only were the layouts, puzzles and specific platform arrangements preserved, the overall color of each zone was kept, despite modern advances in color pallets and texturing[/quote]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You did not even list that the Kraid Hideout areas are gray and blue in Metroid but gray and purple in Zero Mission. The green area on Metroid's hideout is also different from Zero Mission's blue and green mix. Also, what states that the pirates made the bubble doors? Ahh, you are just ignoring more of the facts.

[quote="LDreamNinja"] Artistic license is acceptable in a remake/ retelling.[/quote]

What about lack of such? The Zero Mission designs look like a four-year-old made them. If you still want to hold that theory, then I guess all of the differences in Super Metroid's designs are examples of artistic license in remakes too.

[quote="LDreamNinja"] Marketing must be forgiven for being concise. It does make a better ad. Many players don't care about the intricacies of the story anyway.. [/quote]

I know, they are called remake theorists. To those that do regard the facts however, we the prequelists acknowledge these facts as proof that the game takes place before Metroid as the first mission.

[quote="LDreamNinja"] more easyfication by Nintendo.[/quote]

Yes, they made it easier to see that it is not a remake of Metroid.

[quote="Supuh"] ok, short post this time, ive been busy playing WoW and RS to be posting here... but i just noticed something Dai said...

That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.

hmmm.... added stroyline eh? so, if getting to the starting point on our own could be counted in as if SM was a remake of the original, then why oculdnt the suitless samus sequence, changed mother brain battle, and map changes be counted as "added storyline" too?[/quote]

That is my point exactly. The answer is that neither one can be considered "added storyline". These are instances of new storylines being added to the series.

So I propose a deal to the remake side. I will stop arguing that Super Metroid is a remake, if your side stops arguing that Zero Mission is a remake. Deal?

arkarian

2006-06-05 10:31:02 pm

red chamber dream

Super Metroid is certainly not a remake no matter how you slice it. I also do not believe that ZM is a real "remake" of Metroid, but it certainly tells the same story, just a sort of "updated", if you will, version. It's the same basic adventure; therefore, I can see where it can, yes, be called a remake. It's certainly not an entirely different game, though.

Flamestar666

2006-06-05 10:43:52 pm

If you ask me... I think that ZM is made the way it they wanted to tell the story of the first one...
that's my opinion.(though it isn't a good one laugh new

)

i see metrod as a game that needs no real story... it's just too good.

Prime Hunter

2006-06-06 12:09:25 am

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Doctor ?:

You go from level to level in just about the same exact way in the NES Metroid, fight the bosses in just about the same exact order as in the NES Metroid. It's a remake. Get over it already.

There is no order in any of those games. Sequence breaking allows players to chose their own paths. I will understand that it is a remake as soon as I get some undeniable proof that it is.

That's why it's called Sequence Breaking: Following the intended path of Super Metroid makes us face Kraid, Phantoon, Draygon, and then Ridley. Just because there is the potential to fight them in a different order doesn't make the intended order the wrong one. Based on the design of the game, and the items needed to access each boss, that's how we're supposed to fight them.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?

They do need to be similar for both Zero Mission and Super Metroid to be remakes of Metroid. If they are different in design, then they are different games. Both Zero Mission and Super Metroid are different adventures.

They can be similar, but why do they need to be EXACT copies of the rooms to be considered a remake? Heck, even a game like MGS: Twin Snakes is different than MGS in terms of level design. (I haven't actually played Twin Snakes though, so I may be wrong.)They added in new abilities from MGS2 and upgraded the graphics to agree with it. But, it's still considered a remake that plays out at the same time period that MGS did. It's just an updated version of the previous game. Just as ZM is with Metroid.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

The map layouts for Metroid and ZM are very similar. They each have Brinstar, Norfair, Tourian, and the boss lairs almost in the same place, with the elevators to access them around the same location as well. Take that and compare it to Super. Are the layouts anywhere near the same? No. Brinstar and Norfair (And Crateria, for that matter) are in the same general location compared to each other, but that's it. Super's rooms reference the past adventure all across Zebes. (You can see this quite easily in the first few minutes after landing through the wrecked Tourian and the escape shaft.)

But you are pointing out differences. According to remake logic, remakes are different by nature. Therefore the new design in Super Metroid could just be an example of what they wanted to change about Metroid when they remade it.

So why make Zero Mission SO SIMILAR to Metroid if it's supposed to be an entirely new adventure? Plus, the differences in the maps are from Metroid/ZM to Super, not Metroid to ZM. Super is indeed different in level design from both Metroid and ZM. Since Super is not a remake of Metroid, just an event that happens later in both the timeline of Samus and Zebes, the maps don't need to be as similar. But, there are enough similarities to tell that it is a later time on the same planet. (Again, look to the escape shaft and wrecked Tourian.)

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Have you ever considered the fact that they may have wanted it to look that way compared to what it looks like in Super, not Metroid? Prime even states in a Pirate Log that half of the surviving Pirates stay behind and rebuild Zebes.

Prime states that pirates went back to Zebes, not stayed there. If you are reading the retrofaction on-line manual then you are reading a slightly inaccurate copy.

How are they supposed to "rebuild" Zebes without staying for an extended period of time? And how come there are Space Pirates present in Super Metroid if some didn't stay behind at one point?

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Why can't they have taken the caverns from ZM and turn them into the ones from Super?

Because the underground facilities were not destroyed in Zero Mission, as seen by the option to return to those areas after the explosion.

Who says that the underground facilities cover the entire part of Zebes we see? The Tourian command center, which is the only place you see Space Pirates (Besides Ridley) before the mothership, is certainly destroyed. (At least the part where Mother Brain was.) Besides, why wouldn't Samus be able to return to destroyed facilities? Plenty of movies, books, games, and even REAL LIFE do this. (Real Life = Archeology: People return to destroyed ruins of ancient civilizations all the time.) Samus does this in Super when she passed through the wrecked Tourian, and the fact that she is wandering through the destroyed ruins of the Chozo.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.

That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.

What happened to the artist's choice of not making it be an EXACT copy of the game that is being remade? Why can't the facilities still be in construction by the time Samus gets there, anyway? As you suggest, there is plenty of proof for that. Also, do SMB2 and SM Advance have the same graphical design across the entire game? No.

Quote from Arkarian:

Super Metroid is certainly not a remake no matter how you slice it. I also do not believe that ZM is a real "remake" of Metroid, but it certainly tells the same story, just a sort of "updated", if you will, version. It's the same basic adventure; therefore, I can see where it can, yes, be called a remake. It's certainly not an entirely different game, though.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is how I see Zero Mission when compared to Metroid. Zero Mission is not, as you say, a "real" remake. Real remakes are like going from the NES version of SMB to SMB as part of Super Mario All Stars. The only differences are the ability to save and the updated graphics. The gameplay remains the exact same.

Zero Mission, on the other hand, is an UPDATED remake of Metroid. It also gives us the ability to save to the cartridge itself, and boasts a new graphical design. But, it also EXPANDS on the classic NES Metroid. This is done through new bosses, areas, powerups, abilities, and the added segment involving the Mother Ship.

So, every time I call ZM a "remake" of Metroid, this is what I mean.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Doctor ?"]You go from level to level in just about the same exact way in the NES Metroid, fight the bosses in just about the same exact order as in the NES Metroid. It's a remake. Get over it already.[/quote] 
There is no order in any of those games. Sequence breaking allows players to chose their own paths. I will understand that it is a remake as soon as I get some undeniable proof that it is.[/quote]
That's why it's called Sequence Breaking: Following the intended path of Super Metroid makes us face Kraid, Phantoon, Draygon, and then Ridley. Just because there is the potential to fight them in a different order doesn't make the intended order the wrong one. Based on the design of the game, and the items needed to access each boss, that's how we're [i]supposed[/i] to fight them.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Prime Hunter"] So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?[/quote]
They do need to be similar for both Zero Mission and Super Metroid to be remakes of Metroid. If they are different in design, then they are different games. Both Zero Mission and Super Metroid are different adventures.[/quote]
They can be similar, but why do they need to be EXACT copies of the rooms to be considered a remake? Heck, even a game like MGS: Twin Snakes is different than MGS in terms of level design. (I haven't actually played Twin Snakes though, so I may be wrong.)They added in new abilities from MGS2 and upgraded the graphics to agree with it. But, it's still considered a remake that plays out at the same time period that MGS did. It's just an updated version of the previous game. Just as ZM is with Metroid.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Prime Hunter"]The map layouts for Metroid and ZM are very similar. They each have Brinstar, Norfair, Tourian, and the boss lairs almost in the same place, with the elevators to access them around the same location as well. Take that and compare it to Super. Are the layouts anywhere near the same? No. Brinstar and Norfair (And Crateria, for that matter) are in the same general location compared to each other, but that's it. Super's rooms reference the past adventure all across Zebes. (You can see this quite easily in the first few minutes after landing through the wrecked Tourian and the escape shaft.)[/quote]
But you are pointing out differences. According to remake logic, remakes are different by nature. Therefore the new design in Super Metroid could just be an example of what they wanted to change about Metroid when they remade it.[/quote]
So why make Zero Mission SO SIMILAR to Metroid if it's supposed to be an entirely new adventure? Plus, the differences in the maps are from Metroid/ZM to Super, not Metroid to ZM. Super is indeed different in level design from both Metroid and ZM. Since Super is not a remake of Metroid, just an event that happens later in both the timeline of Samus and Zebes, the maps don't need to be as similar. But, there are enough similarities to tell that it is a later time on the same planet. (Again, look to the escape shaft and wrecked Tourian.)

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Prime Hunter"]Have you ever considered the fact that they may have wanted it to look that way compared to what it looks like in Super, not Metroid? Prime even states in a Pirate Log that half of the surviving Pirates stay behind and rebuild Zebes.[/quote]
Prime states that pirates went back to Zebes, not stayed there. If you are reading the retrofaction on-line manual then you are reading a slightly inaccurate copy.[/quote]
How are they supposed to "rebuild" Zebes without staying for an extended period of time? And how come there are Space Pirates present in Super Metroid if some didn't stay behind at one point?

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Prime Hunter"]Why can't they have taken the caverns from ZM and turn them into the ones from Super?[/quote]
Because the underground facilities were not destroyed in Zero Mission, as seen by the option to return to those areas after the explosion.[/quote]
Who says that the underground facilities cover the entire part of Zebes we see? The Tourian command center, which is the only place you see Space Pirates (Besides Ridley) before the mothership, is certainly destroyed. (At least the part where Mother Brain was.) Besides, why wouldn't Samus be able to return to destroyed facilities? Plenty of movies, books, games, and even REAL LIFE do this. (Real Life = Archeology: People return to destroyed ruins of ancient civilizations all the time.) Samus does this in Super when she passed through the wrecked Tourian, and the fact that she is wandering through the destroyed ruins of the Chozo.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Prime Hunter"]Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.[/quote]
That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.[/quote]
What happened to the artist's choice of not making it be an EXACT copy of the game that is being remade? Why can't the facilities still be in construction by the time Samus gets there, anyway? As you suggest, there is plenty of proof for that. Also, do SMB2 and SM Advance have the same graphical design across the entire game? No.

[quote="Arkarian"]Super Metroid is [i]certainly[/i] not a remake no matter how you slice it. I also do not believe that ZM is a real "remake" of Metroid, but it certainly tells the same story, just a sort of "updated", if you will, version. It's the same basic adventure; therefore, I can see where it can, yes, be called a remake. It's certainly not an entirely different game, though.[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself. This is how I see Zero Mission when compared to Metroid. Zero Mission is not, as you say, a "real" remake. Real remakes are like going from the NES version of SMB to SMB as part of Super Mario All Stars. The only differences are the ability to save and the updated graphics. The gameplay remains the exact same.

Zero Mission, on the other hand, is an [i]UPDATED[/i] remake of Metroid. It also gives us the ability to save to the cartridge itself, and boasts a new graphical design. But, it also [i]EXPANDS[/i] on the classic NES Metroid. This is done through new bosses, areas, powerups, abilities, and the added segment involving the Mother Ship.

So, every time I call ZM a "remake" of Metroid, this is what I mean.

trh

2006-06-06 06:40:46 am

I am calling fake account on Dai, this is hilarious and sad at the same time.

Supuh

2006-06-06 11:22:14 am

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Supuh:

ok, short post this time, ive been busy playing WoW and RS to be posting here... but i just noticed something Dai said...

Quote from Dai Grepher:

That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.

hmmm.... added stroyline eh? so, if getting to the starting point on our own could be counted in as if SM was a remake of the original, then why oculdnt the suitless samus sequence, changed mother brain battle, and map changes be counted as "added storyline" too?

That is my point exactly. The answer is that neither one can be considered "added storyline". These are instances of new storylines being added to the series.

Wait, so first you say that the super metroid thing is ADDED storyline, but that the stuff in metroid zero mission CANT be ADDED storyline because YOU dont want it to be counted as that?, then you CHANGE your opinion that super metroid's "getting to the starting point" ISNT added storyline? can you just MAKE UP YOUR MIND PLEASE!

Quote from Dai Grepher:

So I propose a deal to the remake side. I will stop arguing that Super Metroid is a remake, if your side stops arguing that Zero Mission is a remake. Deal?

ok... now what should we consider this as? You finally accepting you lost on the SM front and are trying to get us to concede on the ZM front, which seems to be a losing battle for you?

oh, and

Quote from trh:

I am calling fake account on Dai, this is hilarious and sad at the same time.

what? flamestar666? does he have the same IP as Dai or something?

[quote="Dai Grepher"]
[quote="Supuh"] ok, short post this time, ive been busy playing WoW and RS to be posting here... but i just noticed something Dai said...

[quote="Dai Grepher"]That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.[/quote]

hmmm.... added stroyline eh? so, if getting to the starting point on our own could be counted in as if SM was a remake of the original, then why oculdnt the suitless samus sequence, changed mother brain battle, and map changes be counted as "added storyline" too?[/quote]
That is my point exactly. The answer is that neither one can be considered "added storyline". These are instances of new storylines being added to the series.
[/quote]

Wait, so first you say that the super metroid thing is ADDED storyline, but that the stuff in metroid zero mission CANT be ADDED storyline because YOU dont want it to be counted as that?, then you CHANGE your opinion that super metroid's "getting to the starting point" ISNT added storyline? can you just MAKE UP YOUR MIND PLEASE!

[quote="Dai Grepher"]So I propose a deal to the remake side. I will stop arguing that Super Metroid is a remake, if your side stops arguing that Zero Mission is a remake. Deal?[/quote]

ok... now what should we consider this as? You finally accepting you lost on the SM front and are trying to get us to concede on the ZM front, which seems to be a losing battle for you?

oh, and [quote="trh"]I am calling fake account on Dai, this is hilarious and sad at the same time.[/quote]
what? flamestar666? does he have the same IP as Dai or something?

Flamestar666

2006-06-06 03:05:35 pm

i'm not that Dai guy.... i'm simply stating my own opinion.
i honestly dno't care wtf dai says or thinks, i just beleive that this is a remake, not a prequel, or sequel, or some dumb crap.
i think that this is the way metrod for the NES was meant to me told. just that the technology didn't let the story be told the way they wanted to tell it.
to me, this is the "True Metroid" kinda like "behind the music" laugh new

.
a remake is something that is remade, not a port of the the same crap with prettier graphics and crap.

and if i was a fake account, i wouldn't use this account name everywhere
(undeadgames.com, myspace, etc)

some people have no lives, i'd admit that, but no one lays there in wait for MONTHS trying to make you think that your method or thinking about metriod is dirty and wrong. Rolling Eyes

Kejardon

2006-06-06 03:27:38 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Don't be so ludicrously arrogant. Just because you do not agree with the other side or see its reasoning does not mean the other side has no case. I've lost all respect for you.

They do not have a case.

I don't even have to prove my case, I just have to present a case to make it clear you're lieing. For someone who interprets everything literally, you seem to have trouble making sure the literal meaning of your own words is true.
And so here's my case I made a *long* time ago on the MDb.

... and insert here a picture of Samus fighting Metroids in Zero Mission.
From those three pictures, I concluded that Zero Mission could NOT occur before Metroid I.

So is it correct to interpret things literally, or is it correct to interpret things idiomatically?
I can't think of any way you can answer that without shooting yourself in the foot. :P

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="SABERinBLUE"] Don't be so ludicrously arrogant. Just because you do not agree with the other side or see its reasoning does not mean the other side has no case. I've lost all respect for you.[/quote]
They do not have a case.[/quote]

:roll:
I don't even have to prove my case, I just have to present a case to make it clear you're lieing. For someone who interprets everything literally, you seem to have trouble making sure the literal meaning of your own words is true.
And so here's my case I made a *long* time ago on the MDb.

[img]http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/3518/image208re.png[/img] [img]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6624/image220uv.png[/img]
... and insert here a picture of Samus fighting Metroids in Zero Mission.
From those three pictures, I concluded that Zero Mission could NOT occur before Metroid I.

So is it correct to interpret things literally, or is it correct to interpret things idiomatically?
I can't think of any way you can answer that without shooting yourself in the foot. :P

arkarian

2006-06-06 04:26:34 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from trh:

I am calling fake account on Dai, this is hilarious and sad at the same time.

Nah, doesn't look like it to me. Well, their IPs don't match, at least.

trh

2006-06-06 04:30:08 pm

Quote from Supuh:

what? flamestar666? does he have the same IP as Dai or something?

Quote from Arkarian:

Nah, doesn't look like it to me. Well, their IPs don't match, at least.

I never mentioned anything about any IP. Just simply that he's not serious. :|

Flamestar666

2006-06-06 05:06:54 pm

Quote from trh:

Quote from Supuh:

what? flamestar666? does he have the same IP as Dai or something?

Quote from Arkarian:

Nah, doesn't look like it to me. Well, their IPs don't match, at least.

I never mentioned anything about any IP. Just simply that he's not serious. :|

the reason he looked up my IP was to see if i was dai, but like most people know... IP's can easily be masked. not saying this one is though... just pointing out a fact.

And I assure you that am the one and only Flamestar666.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60043
http://www.undeadgames.com/phpbb/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=209
http://myspace.com/flamestarr666

anyways. how lond of a period passe between metroid and super metroid?

trh

2006-06-06 05:15:44 pm

Quote from Flamestar666:

Quote from trh:

Quote from Supuh:

what? flamestar666? does he have the same IP as Dai or something?

Quote from Arkarian:

Nah, doesn't look like it to me. Well, their IPs don't match, at least.

I never mentioned anything about any IP. Just simply that he's not serious. :|

the reason he looked up my IP was to see if i was dai

I never even mentioned you, in fact, I didn't even know you existed until now.

Doctor ?

2006-06-06 05:23:25 pm

Quote:

No thanks. Wikipedia is wrong about retcons, and some of their users misuse the term, just as you do. Retroactive continuity by definition means past to present consistency. Edits, subtractions, and rewrites are called revisions, re-envisionings, or re-imaginings.

Retroactive (adj): 1. descriptive of any event or stimulus or process that has an effect on the effects of events or stimuli or process that occurred previously; 2. affecting things past.

Quote:

HA! I see the you have nothing to refute this logic with. I will take this as you conceding the point.

...not only can you not recognize the obvious, you also can't recognize sarcasm.

Quote:

I think you need to go back and see what I am replying to. If you agree with me on that point, then you agree that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid.

I think that it is you who needs to re-read that little quip. You say that remakes do not have to be exactly the same as the source material they are remaking. Yet you insist that in order for Zero Mission to be a remake of the original Metroid, it needs to be more or less exactly the same as the NES Metroid. But if you wish, I'll let you go on incriminating yourself as such. Just more ammunition for us :)

Quote:

You mean, do not believe what Nintendo says when they support your argument. In reality, I do not. However, you seem to be the one with the double standard.

Please to be seeing my above statement.

Quote:

So they make Super Metroid, and redesign the levels, add new items, and "retcon" the storyline through a retelling of those events.

Level Redesigns: Hello? You blew up just about everything in Metroid. Of course the places you were at before are going to look different when you revisit them!

New Items: Game Designers get more ideas after the first game debuts, and they incorporate these ideas into the sequel.

Retcon of Storyline: I don't remember any sort of retconning going on to Super Metroid. It was a direct sequel to Metroid.

Quote:

Samus told the tale of Zero Mission for the first time. This cannot be Metroid because Metroid has been told numerous times before this. Zero Mission retold Samus' first mission, not her Metroid mission. Before she told it, the details of the mission were vague and mostly unknown. That is when Samus told the tale herself and revealed the true story of her first mission.

Metroid. Is. Samus'. First. Mission. Therefore when Zero Mission RETELLS the story of her first mission, it is retelling the story of METROID.

Quote:

Zero Mission did not even have Fake Kraid! How can you say the storyline is the same? Did Samus fight all of the Zero Mission mini-bosses in Metroid? No, she did not. The stories are very different, just as Super Metroid's is different.

Again I direct you to the handy-dandy device known as Retroactive Continuity. Fake Kraid was removed, Mini-Bosses were added for the new powerups they put into the game. Solved.

Quote:

There is no order in any of those games. Sequence breaking allows players to chose their own paths. I will understand that it is a remake as soon as I get some undeniable proof that it is.

You are a fool to think that game designers incorporate sequence breaking into their games on purpose.

Quote:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?

They do need to be similar for both Zero Mission and Super Metroid to be remakes of Metroid. If they are different in design, then they are different games. Both Zero Mission and Super Metroid are different adventures.

Inside Dai's Head: "OMG THERE IS A PIXEL HERE THAT IS A DIFFERENT SHADE OF COLOR! THIS MUST BE AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GAME!"

That's more or less the point you're making here, really.

Quote:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.

That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.

"Hey! We've stolen the Metroid! LET'S BUILD A MASSIVE COMPLICATED UNDERGROUND BASE IN THE FEW HOURS IT TAKES SAMUS TO COME FIND US! :D"

Quote:

Quote from LDreamNinja:

This is not true. If it was though, you would be contradicting yourself.
A lack of changes signifies that you have *gasp* the same thing.

No, the creation of a new game signifies that you have a different thing.

I made a new game on my OOT cartridge. Does this make it a completely different game than my main game above it?

Quote:

Quote from LDreamNinja:

For the most part, not only were the layouts, puzzles and specific platform arrangements preserved, the overall color of each zone was kept, despite modern advances in color pallets and texturing

You have no idea what you are talking about. You did not even list that the Kraid Hideout areas are gray and blue in Metroid but gray and purple in Zero Mission. The green area on Metroid's hideout is also different from Zero Mission's blue and green mix. Also, what states that the pirates made the bubble doors? Ahh, you are just ignoring more of the facts.

"Although this Gamecube controller is white in nature, I have painted it black. Therefore it is completely different from the other white controller I have, which is the same make and model as this controller which I painted black. It's simple logic. Paint makes things completely different from their true nature."

Quote:

Quote from LDreamNinja:

Artistic license is acceptable in a remake/ retelling.

What about lack of such? The Zero Mission designs look like a four-year-old made them. If you still want to hold that theory, then I guess all of the differences in Super Metroid's designs are examples of artistic license in remakes too.

Oh, and the NES Metroid sprites don't look like awful compared to todays 2D games?

Also, it must be some four-year old that Nintendo had, to be able to make those sprites pixel by pixel.

Would you like us to blow some more holes in your ship?

[quote]No thanks. Wikipedia is wrong about retcons, and some of their users misuse the term, just as you do. Retroactive continuity by definition means past to present consistency. Edits, subtractions, and rewrites are called revisions, re-envisionings, or re-imaginings.[/quote]

Retroactive (adj): 1. descriptive of any event or stimulus or process that has an effect on the effects of events or stimuli or process that occurred previously; 2. affecting things past.

[quote]HA! I see the you have nothing to refute this logic with. I will take this as you conceding the point.[/quote]

...not only can you not recognize the obvious, you also can't recognize sarcasm.

[quote]I think you need to go back and see what I am replying to. If you agree with me on that point, then you agree that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid.[/quote]

I think that it is you who needs to re-read that little quip.  You say that remakes do not have to be exactly the same as the source material they are remaking.  Yet you insist that in order for Zero Mission to be a remake of the original Metroid, it needs to be more or less exactly the same as the NES Metroid.  But if you wish, I'll let you go on incriminating yourself as such.  Just more ammunition for us :)

[quote]You mean, do not believe what Nintendo says when they support your argument. In reality, I do not. However, you seem to be the one with the double standard.[/quote]

Please to be seeing my above statement.

[quote]So they make Super Metroid, and redesign the levels, add new items, and "retcon" the storyline through a retelling of those events.[/quote]

Level Redesigns: Hello?  You blew up just about everything in Metroid.  Of course the places you were at before are going to look different when you revisit them!

New Items: Game Designers get more ideas after the first game debuts, and they incorporate these ideas into the sequel.

Retcon of Storyline: I don't remember any sort of retconning going on to Super Metroid.  It was a direct sequel to Metroid.

[quote]Samus told the tale of Zero Mission for the first time. This cannot be Metroid because Metroid has been told numerous times before this. Zero Mission retold Samus' first mission, not her Metroid mission. Before she told it, the details of the mission were vague and mostly unknown. That is when Samus told the tale herself and revealed the true story of her first mission.[/quote]

Metroid.  Is.  Samus'.  First.  Mission.  Therefore when Zero Mission RETELLS the story of her first mission, it is retelling the story of METROID.

[quote]Zero Mission did not even have Fake Kraid! How can you say the storyline is the same? Did Samus fight all of the Zero Mission mini-bosses in Metroid? No, she did not. The stories are very different, just as Super Metroid's is different.[/quote]

Again I direct you to the handy-dandy device known as Retroactive Continuity.  Fake Kraid was removed, Mini-Bosses were added for the new powerups they put into the game.  Solved.

[quote]There is no order in any of those games. Sequence breaking allows players to chose their own paths. I will understand that it is a remake as soon as I get some undeniable proof that it is.[/quote]

You are a fool to think that game designers incorporate sequence breaking into their games on purpose.

[quote][quote="Prime Hunter"] So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?[/quote]

They do need to be similar for both Zero Mission and Super Metroid to be remakes of Metroid. If they are different in design, then they are different games. Both Zero Mission and Super Metroid are different adventures.[/quote]

Inside Dai's Head: "OMG THERE IS A PIXEL HERE THAT IS A DIFFERENT SHADE OF COLOR!  THIS [i]MUST[/i] BE AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GAME!"

That's more or less the point you're making here, really.

[quote][quote="Prime Hunter"] Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.[/quote]

That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.[/quote]

"Hey!  We've stolen the Metroid!  LET'S BUILD A MASSIVE COMPLICATED UNDERGROUND BASE IN THE FEW HOURS IT TAKES SAMUS TO COME FIND US! :D"

[quote][quote="LDreamNinja"] This is not true. If it was though, you would be contradicting yourself. 
A lack of changes signifies that you have *gasp* the same thing.[/quote]

No, the creation of a new game signifies that you have a different thing.[/quote]

I made a new game on my OOT cartridge.  Does this make it a completely different game than my main game above it?

[quote][quote="LDreamNinja"] For the most part, not only were the layouts, puzzles and specific platform arrangements preserved, the overall color of each zone was kept, despite modern advances in color pallets and texturing[/quote]

You have no idea what you are talking about. You did not even list that the Kraid Hideout areas are gray and blue in Metroid but gray and purple in Zero Mission. The green area on Metroid's hideout is also different from Zero Mission's blue and green mix. Also, what states that the pirates made the bubble doors? Ahh, you are just ignoring more of the facts.[/quote]

"Although this Gamecube controller is white in nature, I have painted it black.  Therefore it is completely different from the other white controller I have, which is the same make and model as this controller which I painted black.  It's simple logic.  Paint makes things completely different from their true nature."

[quote][quote="LDreamNinja"] Artistic license is acceptable in a remake/ retelling.[/quote]

What about lack of such? The Zero Mission designs look like a four-year-old made them. If you still want to hold that theory, then I guess all of the differences in Super Metroid's designs are examples of artistic license in remakes too.[/quote]

Oh, and the NES Metroid sprites [u]don't[/u] look like awful compared to todays 2D games?

Also, it must be some four-year old that Nintendo had, to be able to make those sprites pixel by pixel.

Would you like us to blow some more holes in your ship?

Supuh

2006-06-06 05:34:43 pm

as i see it, his ship must be made of 99% corks and plugs and 1% metal as it is now...

SABERinBLUE

2006-06-06 07:58:40 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Dai Grepher:

They do not have a case. They say remakes change things and point to movies or other games. They have not submitted a shred of evidence supporting their claim.

I seem to recall a certain member of your opposition e-mailing Nintendo of America and posting the response in this thread. You chose to interpret that letter in your own way and then come to the conclusion that it supports your argument, not theirs. You are the only person in the entire thread who interpreted it the same way you did. Yet you listen only to yourself and state your conjecture as fact, and you have done thus with every piece of evidence in this debate thus far. That is blazing arrogance. Stop it or don't pretend that you're conducting a competent debate.

Red Scarlet

2006-06-06 08:32:34 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

This topic is so stupid.

Prime Hunter

2006-06-06 10:36:00 pm

No kidding: I don't know why I keep torturing myself by debating with him either.

Dragonfangs

2006-06-07 09:41:51 am

Quote from Doctor ?:

You are a fool to think that game designers incorporate sequence breaking into their games on purpose.

It's been quite confirmed that close to all sequence breaks in Zero Mission are intentional.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Quote:

That is not my opinion. Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid. It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory. That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.

"Hey! We've stolen the Metroid! LET'S BUILD A MASSIVE COMPLICATED UNDERGROUND BASE IN THE FEW HOURS IT TAKES SAMUS TO COME FIND US! :D"

AFAIK there was a lot more than a few hours between the pirates stealing the Metroid and Samus's arrival. Seeing as the federation had to take some time in order to plan a few attacks on Zebes, which all failed, before sending Samus.

Periodico

2006-06-08 11:46:02 am

You guys talk way too much that I can't be bothered to read all your "blah blah blah" besides mine's just tangential enough to have not been thought of... And this is erious too don't dismisss it out of hand.

After Fusion she takes the Etecoons and Daccoras and ADAM with her on the ship. Feds are probably after her and sho knows what's going to happen next.

ADAM asks about what's been going on with her and how she ended up on this mission(Fusion). First she remembers Metroid and RoS (also Metroid Prime series, but she dismisses these as unrelated to the BSL -> metroid incident)... but she only synopsizes these in order to tell the Super Metroid story (etecoons and Daccoras are also listening closely). She then also tells them her interpretation of the BSL incident (Fusion). Then he asks more in-depth questions about the events of Metroid and she decides that her original memory is a little sparse so she jazzes it up a bit (wheter truthfully or not, we don't know).

Considering that MZM is narrated as opposed to the sparse explanation in Metroid, this would argue that it is Samus' view of what happened not necessarily what really happened.

Of course you can disagree if you wish.

You guys talk way too much that I can't be bothered to read all your "blah blah blah"  besides mine's just tangential enough to have not been thought of...  And this is erious too don't dismisss it out of hand.

After Fusion she takes the Etecoons and Daccoras and ADAM with her on the ship.  Feds are probably after her and sho knows what's going to happen next.

ADAM asks about what's been going on with her and how she ended up on this mission(Fusion).  First she remembers Metroid and RoS (also Metroid Prime series, but she dismisses these as unrelated to the BSL -> metroid incident)... but she only synopsizes these in order to tell the Super Metroid story (etecoons and Daccoras are also listening closely).  She then also tells them her interpretation of the BSL incident (Fusion).  Then he asks more in-depth questions about the events of Metroid and she decides that her original memory is a little sparse so she jazzes it up a bit (wheter truthfully or not, we don't know).

Considering that MZM is narrated as opposed to the sparse explanation in Metroid, this would argue that it is Samus' view of what happened not necessarily what really happened.

Of course you can disagree if you wish.

Chanoire

2006-06-08 02:42:22 pm

Quote from Periodico:

You guys talk way too much that I can't be bothered to read all your "blah blah blah" besides mine's just tangential enough to have not been thought of... And this is erious too don't dismisss it out of hand.

You can't be bothered to read what you call "blah blah blah" and yet you want us to take yours seriously? Do you see a bit of a double standard here?

Please mark your fanfic clearly as such rather than stating it as if you're just recapping stuff that's actually in the games, so people don't waste time trying to remember this dialogue that didn't actually occur.

Periodico

2006-06-08 03:49:02 pm

Oh, you know what I meant. Wink

I was just trying to bring a little levity back to this discussion. I actually did read most of the first 15 pages of this thing. And when I meant "seriously" I meant "Don't dismiss it out-of-hand" why didn't I say it that way? Because I didn't think it mattered.

BOT... I do believe that Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid. There is just so much occurs after the destruction of the Tourian facility that there is no way that just a little bit later the exact same sequence of events occurs (well close enough). And it isn't a remake of Super Metroid (I saw this idea somewhere I'm not making it up) because obviously, there are more than one Metroid (although I forgot about the Beta-ray reproduction...but there isn't any space station sequence, and it's her "first adventure") .

Too many similarities between Metroid and MZM. though I guess there are similarities between Metroid and Super just because it's the same planet.

In the end, I think that each person has to decide for him/herself what they want to believe. It's only a game after all. laugh new

*THat was more than I though I would ever want to write about this... stupid Chanoire khaaaan

j/k about the stupid of course...*

Oh, you know what I meant.   :wink: 
  I was just trying to bring a little levity back to this discussion.   I actually did read most of the first 15 pages of this thing.  And when I meant "seriously" I meant "Don't dismiss it out-of-hand"  why didn't I say it that way?  Because I didn't think it mattered.

BOT...  I do believe that Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid.  There is just so much occurs after the destruction of the Tourian facility that there is no way that just a little bit later the exact same sequence of events occurs (well close enough).  And it isn't a remake of Super Metroid (I saw this idea somewhere I'm not making it up) because obviously, there are more than one Metroid (although I forgot about the Beta-ray reproduction...but there isn't any space station sequence, and it's her "first adventure")  .

Too many similarities between Metroid and MZM.  though I guess there are similarities between Metroid and Super just because it's the same planet.

In the end, I think that each person has to decide for him/herself what they want to believe.  It's only a game after all.   :laugh:

*THat was more than I though I would ever want to write about this... stupid Chanoire :khan: 
j/k about the stupid of course...*

LDreamNinja

2006-06-10 10:20:45 pm

What happened to the two messages that were here? were they too flame-like?

Anyway, Dai Grepher, you keep asking for evidence that ZM is a retelling, where is your evidence? You originally posted things Nintendo said, but recently you said that their reps don't know what they are talking about, and couldn't be used for evidence.

Responses to things in the last Dai Grepher post:

Prime strongly implied the doors were pirate in origin.
So the color purple was changed to blue, big deal, without the black backgrounds, blue is a better color to retain the spooky atmosphere, and better fits the artistic style of the game.
Quote:
The Zero Mission designs look like a four-year-old made them.
Why did you even say this in this context? does insulting the graphic designers help prove me wrong? That's bully mentality
Quote:
No, the creation of a new game signifies that you have a different thing.
So, is the CD Metroid another prequel?
Quote:
Metroid II also documents Metroid as Samus' greatest achievement. It would not do so if that were her only achievement because it would undermine the purpose of giving it such prestige in the first place. You are also forgetting that Zero Mission's version of Metroid's backstory also states that numerous missions took place before Metroid.
This fits nicely into the retelling "theory", M2 talks about M1/MZM as the greatest achievement, and many missions came before both M1 and M2, sounds like the same story to me. Looked at from YOUR theory however, it contradicts itself,how is M1 her greatest achievement if she did nearly the same thing in both, but also destroyed a star cruiser in MZM? both points of view remove the ads from serious plotline construction.
Quote:
Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid.
So you keep saying but I see no difference, as I said before, Brinstar is still rocks and some metal, Kraid is still ruins, Norfair is still lava tubes, Ridley is still fire ruins, and Tourian is still covered in high-tech looking stuff.
Quote:
It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory.
Not true the base could have existed forever for all the detail M1 goes into. The same is true of ZM.
Quote:
That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission.
Says you.
Quote:
Zero Mission did not even have Fake Kraid! How can you say the storyline is the same?
Side note: I needed beat Metroid twice without knowing about fake Kraid. I actually had to look at a guide to find him and verify his existence for myself.
You keep using Super Metroid as an example. Do you know why it works so well? Many people consider it a semi-remake anyway. A kind of "deluxe version" that was then made into a part of the continuity.There is a key difference between MZM and SM though. While SM loosely followed the first game and was proclaimed Metroid 3, MZM held much tighter to the old maps and room design and was called the "true story" of M1, a retelling. My point is that if Nintendo wanted to add MZM to the chain, they would have made it obvious.
Many ads actually call MZM her first mission to ZEBES anyway. there is no contradiction.

What happened to the two messages that were here? were they too flame-like?

Anyway, Dai Grepher, you keep asking for evidence that ZM is a retelling, where is your evidence? You originally posted things Nintendo said, but recently you said that their reps don't know what they are talking about, and couldn't be used for evidence.

Responses to things in the last Dai Grepher post:

[list][*]Prime strongly implied the doors were pirate in origin.

[*]So the color purple was changed to blue, big deal, without the black backgrounds, blue is a better color to retain the spooky atmosphere, and better fits the artistic style of the game.

[*][quote]The Zero Mission designs look like a four-year-old made them.[/quote]  Why did you even say this in this context? does insulting the graphic designers help prove me wrong? That's bully mentality

[*][quote]No, the creation of a new game signifies that you have a different thing. [/quote] So, is the CD Metroid another prequel?

[*][quote]Metroid II also documents Metroid as Samus' greatest achievement. It would not do so if that were her only achievement because it would undermine the purpose of giving it such prestige in the first place. You are also forgetting that Zero Mission's version of Metroid's backstory also states that numerous missions took place before Metroid.[/quote] This fits nicely into the retelling "theory", M2 talks about M1/MZM as the greatest achievement, and many missions came before both M1 and M2, sounds like the same story to me. Looked at from YOUR theory however, it contradicts itself,how is M1 her greatest achievement if she did nearly the same thing in both, but  also destroyed a star cruiser in MZM? both points of view remove the ads from serious plotline construction.

[*][quote]Zero Mission depicts areas that are less developed than the areas in Metroid.[/quote] So you keep saying but I see no difference, as I said before, Brinstar is still rocks and some metal, Kraid is still ruins, Norfair is still lava tubes, Ridley is still fire ruins, and Tourian is still covered in high-tech looking stuff.

[*][quote]It is a fact that the pirates built a network of research facilities beneath the surface after stealing the Metroid sample in Metroid's backstory.[/quote]Not true the base could have existed forever for all the detail M1 goes into. The same is true of ZM.

[*][quote]That network was based on the existing tunnels of Zero Mission. [/quote] Says you.

[*][quote]Zero Mission did not even have Fake Kraid! How can you say the storyline is the same?[/quote]Side note: I needed beat Metroid twice without knowing about fake Kraid. I actually had to look at a guide to find him and verify his existence for myself.

[*] You keep using Super Metroid as an example. Do you know why it works so well? Many people consider it a semi-remake anyway. A kind of "deluxe version" that was then made into a part of the continuity.
There is a key difference between MZM and SM though. While SM loosely followed the first game and was proclaimed Metroid 3, MZM held much tighter to the old maps and room design and was called the "true story" of M1, a retelling. My point is that if Nintendo wanted to add MZM to the chain, they would have made it obvious.

[*] Many ads actually call MZM her first mission to ZEBES anyway. there is no contradiction.
[/list]