MZM Timeline Status Discussion

2006-05-28 08:09:34 pm

lvl 28 Magic Leper

Quote from Emerl:

Quote:

Sakamoto: “We've added new enemies, new items, and new puzzles to the game. So if we were to say it was a completely new game we wouldn't be entirely off-base. Obviously we used the original Metroid as the base for Zero Mission, and the concept was to take that original gameplay and rework it into something that felt fresh and new, while still keeping elements from the original game that people would be familiar with.”

This alone disproves your theory. He says that if they hypothetically said it was a new game, they wouldn't be off track. Thus, he implies it IS a remake. Not to mention the fact that he did not correct the interviewer when he referred to it as a remake.

Metroid: Zero is a remake. FACT.

You obviously do not understand the concept of a retcon. FACT.

You desperately want attention. FACT.

Anyways I just had to post that.

Somehow I doubt that this stops the arguement, my guess is Dai will point out that it says Metroid is the base for ZM, and not a remake. Hypothesising is irrelevent you will be assimilated.

BTW I think that what you said was already posted, I could be wrong though.

[quote="Emerl"][quote]Sakamoto: “We've added new enemies, new items, and new puzzles to the game. So if we were to say it was a completely new game we wouldn't be entirely off-base. Obviously we used the original Metroid as the base for Zero Mission, and the concept was to take that original gameplay and rework it into something that felt fresh and new, while still keeping elements from the original game that people would be familiar with.”[/quote]This alone disproves your theory. He says that if they hypothetically said it was a new game, they wouldn't be off track. Thus, he implies it IS a remake. Not to mention the fact that he did not correct the interviewer when he referred to it as a remake.

Metroid: Zero is a remake. FACT.

You obviously do not understand the concept of a retcon. FACT.

You desperately want attention. FACT.[/quote]

[URL=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9389/factjpg1zt.jpg[/img][/URL]

Anyways I just had to post that.

Somehow I doubt that this stops the arguement, my guess is Dai will point out that it says Metroid is the [b]base[/b] for ZM, and not a remake. Hypothesising is irrelevent you will be assimilated.

BTW I think that what you said was already posted, I could be wrong though.

Dai Grepher

2006-05-30 02:33:26 pm

Quote from Doctor ?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroid_Zero_Mission

Wikipedia is not official or reliable.

Quote from Doctor ?:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Retcon

Retcon (Retroactive Continuity)

The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals"
things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the
"facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely
changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a
whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.

Of course I know what a retcon is. Zero Mission is a retcon because it tells us the story of Samus' first mission. Notice that retcons are story added to previous stories that preserve the facts and maintain consistency? Zero Mission does this as a prequel. A remake would change facts, and thus it would not be a retcon. I am glad to see that you agree with me.

Quote from Doctor ?:

1. n. The common situation in pulp
fiction (esp. comics or soap operas) where a new story `reveals'
things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the `facts'
the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing
their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of
"Dallas" was a dream was a retcon. 2. vt. To write such a story
about a character or fictitious object. "Byrne has retconned
Superman's cape so that it is no longer unbreakable." "Marvelman's
old adventures were retconned into synthetic dreams." "Swamp Thing
was retconned from a transformed person into a sentient vegetable."
"Darth Vader was retconned into Luke Skywalker's father in "The
Empire Strikes Back".

Also proving my point. Star Wars never stated that Darth Vader was not Luke's Father or that Luke's father was definately someone other than Darth Vader. A new movie was released that introduced that fact into the series, thus no facts were changed or contradicted. Plup Fiction also reveals story that takes place before others but does so after those others are revealed. This is also what Zero Mission does. It reveals a story that takes place before Metroid and also Zero Mission for that matter, but this story is told after the stories that it precedes.

Another good example of retconning in the Metroid series is Super Metroid's intro. It states that Samus first battled the Metroids on Zebes. During that time, people assumed it was talking about Metroid's mission. However, nothing stated this directly. Then when Zero Mission came out, it changed the interpretation of that fact. It did not contradict the fact that Samus first battled the Metroid's on Zebes, but it did introduce the fact that Zero Mission was that battle, not Metroid. Thanks for helping to prove my point.

Quote from Emerl:

This alone disproves your theory. He says that if they hypothetically said it was a new game, they wouldn't be off track. Thus, he implies it IS a remake. Not to mention the fact that he did not correct the interviewer when he referred to it as a remake.

Wrong. He said that if they were to say it was a COMPLETELY new game, then they would not be off base. However, since it is still based on Metroid as well as Fusion, it is not a COMPLETELY new game, rather a fairly new game because it does remake the classic gameplay style.

Quote from Emerl:

You desperately want attention. FACT.

I only reply to this topic because of people like you that think they have something to prove me wrong. I am just coming back here to correct your mistakes. I have already won this debate.

[quote="Doctor ?"] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroid_Zero_Mission[/quote]

Wikipedia is not official or reliable.

[quote="Doctor ?"] http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Retcon

Retcon (Retroactive Continuity)

The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals" 
things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the 
"facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely 
changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a 
whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.[/quote]

Of course I know what a retcon is. Zero Mission is a retcon because it tells us the story of Samus' first mission. Notice that retcons are story added to previous stories that preserve the facts and maintain consistency? Zero Mission does this as a prequel. A remake would change facts, and thus it would not be a retcon. I am glad to see that you agree with me.

[quote="Doctor ?"] 1. n. The common situation in pulp 
fiction (esp. comics or soap operas) where a new story `reveals' 
things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the `facts' 
the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing 
their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of 
"Dallas" was a dream was a retcon. 2. vt. To write such a story 
about a character or fictitious object. "Byrne has retconned 
Superman's cape so that it is no longer unbreakable." "Marvelman's 
old adventures were retconned into synthetic dreams." "Swamp Thing 
was retconned from a transformed person into a sentient vegetable." 
"Darth Vader was retconned into Luke Skywalker's father in "The 
Empire Strikes Back".[/quote]

Also proving my point. Star Wars never stated that Darth Vader was not Luke's Father or that Luke's father was definately someone other than Darth Vader. A new movie was released that introduced that fact into the series, thus no facts were changed or contradicted. Plup Fiction also reveals story that takes place before others but does so after those others are revealed. This is also what Zero Mission does. It reveals a story that takes place before Metroid and also Zero Mission for that matter, but this story is told after the stories that it precedes.

Another good example of retconning in the Metroid series is Super Metroid's intro. It states that Samus first battled the Metroids on Zebes. During that time, people assumed it was talking about Metroid's mission. However, nothing stated this directly. Then when Zero Mission came out, it changed the interpretation of that fact. It did not contradict the fact that Samus first battled the Metroid's on Zebes, but it did introduce the fact that Zero Mission was that battle, not Metroid. Thanks for helping to prove my point.

[quote="Emerl"] This alone disproves your theory. He says that if they hypothetically said it was a new game, they wouldn't be off track. Thus, he implies it IS a remake. Not to mention the fact that he did not correct the interviewer when he referred to it as a remake.[/quote]

Wrong. He said that if they were to say it was a COMPLETELY new game, then they would not be off base. However, since it is still based on Metroid as well as Fusion, it is not a COMPLETELY new game, rather a fairly new game because it does remake the classic gameplay style.

[quote="Emerl"] You desperately want attention. FACT.[/quote]

I only reply to this topic because of people like you that think they have something to prove me wrong. I am just coming back here to correct your mistakes. I have already won this debate.

Smops

2006-05-30 02:42:32 pm

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Doctor ?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metroid_Zero_Mission

Wikipedia is not official or reliable.

The sources mentioned in the ZM article are, however.

Kejardon

2006-05-30 03:40:03 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote:

I have already won this debate.

y'know, considering more people probably believe you're insane than believe your argument, I wouldn't call that winning a debate.

Emerl

2006-05-30 05:46:37 pm

Again, Dai, you are interperating the facts incorrectly to furthur your argument. The game does not change the Metroid formula enough that your interpretation of his statement could be correct. The debate is only over when you have sufficiently proven your argument to the point that there is no counterargument. As this topic is still alive, there are plenty of counterarguments, none of which you have disproven without making up some bullshit way to look at it by twisting words.

Oh, and retcons CAN change the story. Look at the Mega Man X series.

Prime Hunter

2006-05-30 05:56:39 pm

Quote from Emerl:

Oh, and retcons CAN change the story. Look at the Mega Man X series.

Or the Metal Gear Solid series. (Snake Eater, anyone?)

Doctor ?

2006-05-30 06:09:33 pm

Quote:

Notice that retcons are story added to previous stories that preserve the facts and maintain consistency?

Fail. Retcons also delete elements from previous stated canon, add elements to previously exisiting canon, or completely delete existing canon and replace it with something different (E.G.; making a new version of Super Metroid that completely erases the events in the SNES Super Metroid, and instead having the game be about Samus fighting the Power Rangers). What Zero Mission did is this: The took the original NES Metroid, gave it a graphical facelift, and retconned things in and out of the game (elevator placements, item locations, etc). These additions and subtractions does not make it a prequel to the NES Metroid. Samus' first mission was, and always will be, the events that occured in Metroid/Zero Mission.

I honestly don't see what's so hard to understand about this. Zero Mission IS the original Metroid, but with a graphical update and new elements added. Saying that it's a prequel is like saying that the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 is a prequel to the NES SMB3 because it has a graphical update, or saying that Links Awakening DX is a prequel to Links Awakening, because it's in color and has new levels.

Zero Mission doesn't tell a story before the NES Metroid. It elaborates on the story that the NES Metroid told.

[quote]Notice that retcons are story added to previous stories that preserve the facts and maintain consistency?[/quote]

Fail.  Retcons also delete elements from previous stated canon, add elements to previously exisiting canon, or completely delete existing canon and replace it with something different (E.G.; making a new version of Super Metroid that completely erases the events in the SNES Super Metroid, and instead having the game be about Samus fighting the Power Rangers).  What Zero Mission did is this: The took the original NES Metroid, gave it a graphical facelift, and retconned things in and out of the game (elevator placements, item locations, etc).  These additions and subtractions does not make it a prequel to the NES Metroid.  Samus' first mission was, and always will be, the events that occured in Metroid/Zero Mission.

I honestly don't see what's so hard to understand about this.  Zero Mission IS the original Metroid, but with a graphical update and new elements added.  Saying that it's a prequel is like saying that the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 is a prequel to the NES SMB3 because it has a graphical update, or saying that Links Awakening DX is a prequel to Links Awakening, because it's in color and has new levels.

Zero Mission doesn't tell a story before the NES Metroid.  It elaborates on the story that the NES Metroid told.

KennyMan666

2006-05-30 06:22:58 pm

Viking

Precursor

I had planned to stay away from this topic, but god damn it, I can't keep my fingers away anymore.

My first question to Dai is how the hell you still can believe in this yourself. You are the only person who does not think that Zero Mission is a remake (if you have recieved replies from people who does in fact believe that this is not the case, please point them out specifically). And your logic stating that it is not is complete bollocks.

For any newcomers to this topic, here is Dai Grepher's logic.

This is Metroid.

(this pic will hereafter be refered to as M)

This is Metroid: Zero Mission.

(this pic will hereafter be refered to as Z)

Because Z is not a total, complete and down-to-the-pixel copy of M, Zero Mission cannot be a remake of Metroid.

I wish I would have taken notes while venturing through this topic, because Dai contradicted himself at various points - but there was one I specifically remember.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Remakes change things, remember?

This, or something with the same meaning, was said at least three times. By the same person.

Hypocrisy meter overload. I rest my case.

I had planned to stay away from this topic, but god damn it, I can't keep my fingers away anymore.

My first question to Dai is how the hell you still can believe in this yourself. You are the only person who does not think that Zero Mission is a remake (if you have recieved replies from people who does in fact believe that this is not the case, please point them out specifically). And your logic stating that it is not is complete bollocks.

For any newcomers to this topic, here is Dai Grepher's logic.

This is Metroid.
[img]http://dorando.emuverse.com/images/metroid.e_02.png[/img]
(this pic will hereafter be refered to as M)

This is Metroid: Zero Mission.
[img]http://www.gamerankings.com/screens4/914982/1.jpg[/img]
(this pic will hereafter be refered to as Z)

Because Z is not a total, complete and down-to-the-pixel copy of M, Zero Mission cannot be a remake of Metroid.

I wish I would have taken notes while venturing through this topic, because Dai contradicted himself at various points - but there was one I specifically remember.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Remakes change things, remember?[/quote]

This, or something with the same meaning, was said at least three times. By the same person.

Hypocrisy meter overload. I rest my case.

RT-55J

2006-05-30 06:58:09 pm

Armor Guardian

IIRC, that quote is from a tangent wherein Dai tried to invalidate our logic by using it to prove SM is a remake of Metroid or something like that. I'm not too sure because didn't read half of the topic.

nate

2006-05-30 11:17:33 pm

ugh that pic of zm is horrible. go m2k2sda capture in 2003.

nn12000

2006-05-31 01:23:14 am

Mister ...

Yeah, I've been trying to stay away, but people like Dai piss me off. So, I have come to post my statement.

Back to the whole SM being a perfect remake of M... Why would a game begin where an older one ended if it was a remake? For anyone who has played SM, ZM/M, just because the Morph ball is in the same spot doesn't mean that it's the same game.

Quote:

ZM is not a remake

Wrong

Quote from Nintendo:

Samus Aran will return to her roots and relive the story that started it all -- revealing for the first time full details of her meeting with the Metroids. The plotline will be familiar to longtime fans of the Metroid series, but the challenges are new, the power-ups are plentiful (taken from several games in the series) and the graphics and sound are supercharged. Plus, if you thought that the original Metroid had a surprise ending, wait until you get past the Mother Brain in Metroid: Zero Mission. A new twist provides a deeper adventure than ever before.

Here's the link too: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856

I really don't know how you see ZM is a remake of SM. Even if SM was a "Perfect" remake of M, then wouldn't the map layouts be the same? Would you not start right next to the Morph Ball? Would the game not end with MB being defeated, without the whole being saved by the "Super" baby metroid? Why would the game even make a recollection back to Metroid 1?

Now, back to ZM. USING THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM NINTENDO:::

If M and ZM weren't basically the same game, then why were the challenges basically the same? Why is it that the Sequence Breaks can be pulled off in both the games? Why is it that all the items are literally found in the same spot? Why are the games so friggin similar if they aren't the same? WHY? If ZM wasn't a remake of M, then what is the point of ZM? ANyone with a decent amount of common sense would realize that these games are the same, one remade with better graphics, sound, etc. with an improved storyline to enhance the game and make people who haven't played the original to understand the whole Metroid concept. This game has features that they couldn't put in the original metroid, but they wanted the game to feel like the other Metroids previously made before ZM.

With all that said, I don't plan on returning to this topic anytime soon, unless the discussion rages on some more like it has been lately. I'm really getting tired of seeing this topic being renewed in hopes of something else to talk about. Have a nice day!

Yeah, I've been trying to stay away, but people like Dai piss me off.  So, I have come to post my statement.

Back to the whole SM being a perfect remake of M...  Why would a game begin where an older one ended if it was a remake?  For anyone who has played SM, ZM/M, just because the Morph ball is in the same spot doesn't mean that it's the same game.

[quote]ZM is not a remake[/quote]
Wrong
[quote="Nintendo"][u][i][b]Samus Aran will return to her roots and relive the story that started it all -- revealing for the first time full details of her meeting with the Metroids. The plotline will be familiar to longtime fans of the Metroid series, but the challenges are new, the power-ups are plentiful (taken from several games in the series) and the graphics and sound are supercharged. Plus, if you thought that the original Metroid had a surprise ending, wait until you get past the Mother Brain in Metroid: Zero Mission. A new twist provides a deeper adventure than ever before.[/b][/i][/u][/quote]
Here's the link too: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856

I really don't know how you see ZM is a remake of SM.  Even if SM was a "Perfect" remake of M, then wouldn't the map layouts be the same?  Would you not start right next to the Morph Ball?  Would the game not end with MB being defeated, without the whole being saved by the "Super" baby metroid?  Why would the game even make a recollection back to Metroid 1?

Now, back to ZM.  USING THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM NINTENDO:::

If M and ZM weren't basically the same game, then why were the challenges basically the same?  Why is it that the Sequence Breaks can be pulled off in both the games?  Why is it that all the items are literally found in the same spot?  Why are the games so friggin similar if they aren't the same?  WHY?  If ZM wasn't a remake of M, then what is the point of ZM?  ANyone with a decent amount of common sense would realize that these games are the same, one remade with better graphics, sound, etc.  with an improved storyline to enhance the game and make people who haven't played the original to understand the whole Metroid concept.  This game has features that they couldn't put in the original metroid, but they wanted the game to feel like the other Metroids previously made before ZM.

With all that said, I don't plan on returning to this topic anytime soon, unless the discussion rages on some more like it has been lately.  I'm really getting tired of seeing this topic being renewed in hopes of something else to talk about.  Have a nice day!

Prime Hunter

2006-05-31 02:22:15 am

Quote from nn12000:

Anyone with a decent amount of common sense would realize that these games are the same...

Unfortuantely, even though it makes sense to all of us, Dai will never accept common sense as anything more than our opinion. Trust me, I tried that before.

Dai Grepher

2006-05-31 05:16:55 pm

Quote from Smops:

The sources mentioned in the ZM article are, however.

What sources state that it is a remake? Certainly not Nintendo. Wikipedia had IMDB listed as a source, until their review changed to state that it was the story of Samus' first mission. Then they deleted it. They are biased. They even state that IGN was there reference for release dates and development teams, however, IGN first stated that Intelligent Systems developed Zero Mission. Wikipedia copied that information. It was not until I came to argue the article that it was discovered, through my efforts of course, that Intelligent Systems did not develop the game, but rather it was Nintendo's R&D1 staff. Wikipedia corrected that mistake and informed IGN. IGN corrected their mistake as well, yet they are still considered reliable because a few Wikipedians still think it is a remake? That is communism.

[quote="Emerl"] Again, Dai, you are interperating the facts incorrectly to furthur your argument. The game does not change the Metroid formula enough that your interpretation of his statement could be correct. The debate is only over when you have sufficiently proven your argument to the point that there is no counterargument.

There is no counter argument. I have not seen any evidence brought up against the prequel timeline. I have seen no evidence that the game is a remake, or at the least, not a prequel. The debate is over on the grounds that the remake side has no argument.

Quote from Emerl:

As this topic is still alive, there are plenty of counterarguments, none of which you have disproven without making up some gunship way to look at it by twisting words.

No, there are many disagreements. In other words there are many posts saying that I am wrong, that I twist facts, or that I am insane. That is not a timeline argument, it is just spam.

Quote from Emerl:

Oh, and retcons CAN change the story. Look at the Mega Man X series.

Those are re-envisionings/imaginings. Retroactive Continuity focuses on preserving continuity, not breaking it apart.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Fail. Retcons also delete elements from previous stated canon, add elements to previously exisiting canon, or completely delete existing canon and replace it with something different (E.G.; making a new version of Super Metroid that completely erases the events in the SNES Super Metroid, and instead having the game be about Samus fighting the Power Rangers).

That is not what retconning is. Anyone that uses it to describe such a storyline rewrite is misusing the term.

Quote from Doctor ?:

What Zero Mission did is this: The took the original NES Metroid, gave it a graphical facelift, and retconned things in and out of the game (elevator placements, item locations, etc).

Where... is... the proof?

Quote from Doctor ?:

These additions and subtractions does not make it a prequel to the NES Metroid. Samus' first mission was, and always will be, the events that occured in Metroid/Zero Mission.

"Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible." - Metroid

Also, Sakamoto said that storyline consistency was important to him. This is why he worked so hard on Metroid Prime, to make it match the events of Metroid. Why would he then change the events of Metroid to undermine his previous hard work?

Also, there was nothing added or subtracted from Metroid. Zero Mission was created with Metroid's areas as a basis for design. The creators of Zero Mission created a new world though, which is seen in almost every room of Zero Mission. If they cared about doing a remake of Metroid, then it would have matched Metroid. That is the point of doing a remake. You want to want to make and old game better and stick to the storyline of that game. New games on the other hand are opportunities where designers can do whatever they want and shape the story to whatever they have in mind. They made a new game and a new adventure, because they did not want to conform to a set design that was not theirs. This is obvious in the many differences in the levels and storyline.

Quote from Doctor ?:

I honestly don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

I understand your idea, but that is all it is. It is your opinion that they did all that. It is not fact. Moreover, I have a different opinion of what went through their heads during production and I base this on the 2nd interview that Sakamoto had where he talked about Fusion, the series, and the then new game being made, Zero Mission. He stated that consistency is important to him and the series in order to see it grow, and that making new games is something that they can always look forward to since it is their creation.

Quote from Doctor ?:

Zero Mission IS the original Metroid, but with a graphical update and new elements added. Saying that it's a prequel is like saying that the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 is a prequel to the NES SMB3 because it has a graphical update, or saying that Links Awakening DX is a prequel to Links Awakening, because it's in color and has new levels.

No it is not. Those games do not break away from the original storyline. They also do not depict worlds that are less detailed or developed as the originals. I have never said that the game is a prequel or not a remake just because the worlds do not look the same. I said it is not a remake because the worlds are vastly different. There is no implication in the game showing that the designers even tried to match Metroid in design. I also said that the game is a prequel because the areas depicted imply an earlier time frame. The caverns are still cave like, instead of the more developed look they have in Metroid. The statues in the elevator rooms are basic and plain in Zero Mission but detailed and finely crafted in Metroid. Also, the room before Kraid is basic and plain, but in Metroid its ceiling shows what looks like a lizard's head with eyes and fangs. If Zero Mission were a remake, why wouldn't they remake that room to look similar? Why make it look nothing like the one in Metroid let alone like... nothing special?

Quote from Doctor ?:

Zero Mission doesn't tell a story before the NES Metroid. It elaborates on the story that the NES Metroid told.

Have you played Zero Mission? It tells the story of Samus' childhood for one thing. Other than that, Samus said she would finally tell the tale of her first battle on Zebes, even though Metroid is a tale that has been told. Zero Mission is also described to be Samus' first mission in multiple sources, including the commercial.

Quote from KennyMan666:

My first question to Dai is how the hell you still can believe in this yourself.

Because it's the truth.

Quote from KennyMan666:

For any newcomers to this topic, here is Dai Grepher's logic.

This is Metroid.

(this pic will hereafter be refered to as M)

This is Metroid: Zero Mission.

(this pic will hereafter be refered to as Z)

Because Z is not a total, complete and down-to-the-pixel copy of M, Zero Mission cannot be a remake of Metroid.

I have never said anything of the sort. It does not have to match down to the last pixil. However, it should at least be similar. As you can see by those pictures you posted, there are many things different about those areas. In Zero Mission there are no single blocks on the inner sides of the two outside posts. The main column with the Morph Ball looks different. Even this is acceptable in a remake, but when you add this with the many others differences in level design in almost every room, then what you have is a game like Super Metroid. A game that has the same areas appear, but in a different time frame.

Also, the most important room, the Mother Brain room, was not designed with Super Metroid in mind. Super Metroid shows the old Tourian in the flashback and game. It shows a brain pod that is damaged and inactive but still intact with even some shards of glass present. However, Zero Mission's destroyed brain pod is nothing but a pile of rubble. Observe:

Not only is the pod metallic swiss cheese, but there is no fifth Zeebetite right in front of the pod. Even the background is different from what it should look like had this been Metroid. The designers simply did not recreate Metroid when they made Zero Mission. All of these major differences prove that it is a new adventure.

Quote from KennyMan666:

I wish I would have taken notes while venturing through this topic, because Dai contradicted himself at various points - but there was one I specifically remember.

Dai Grepher wrote: Remakes change things, remember?

This, or something with the same meaning, was said at least three times. By the same person.

Hypocrisy meter overload. I rest my case.

You obviously did not read the topic thoroughly. That is the excuse that the remake side uses to explain why Zero Mission is different. In other words, it is a remake because it is different and it is different because it is a remake. So in response to this circular logic, I presented the idea that Super Metroid was also a remake under that same illogic. I said that Super Metroid was a remake, and when people presented me with differences to prove that it was a different game (as I had done with Zero Mission no less), I claimed that remakes change things, then told them to remember that this is what they had said as an excuse why Zero Mission was different.

So this was just a hypothetical point I used to argue the remake side's illogical excuse.

Quote from RT-55J:

IIRC, that quote is from a tangent wherein Dai tried to invalidate our logic by using it to prove SM is a remake of Metroid or something like that. I'm not too sure because didn't read half of the topic.

That is correct, but I did not try, I did.

Quote from nn12000:

Yeah, I've been trying to stay away, but people like Dai piss me off. So, I have come to post my statement.

A topic about a video game is all it takes to anger you?

Quote from nn12000:

Back to the whole SM being a perfect remake of M... Why would a game begin where an older one ended if it was a remake?

Ever since Metroid II, the creators of the series wanted Metroid to be placed after Metroid II. However, the technology at that time did not allow such story telling and the NES Metroid was limited. So they made Super Metroid to retcon Metroid to be Metroid II's sequel. However, this left a gap in the storyline before Metroid II, so they made Zero Mission to be that mission, the first mission.

So you have your "blame the NES" logic, the misuse of "retcon", and the "creators always intended" assumption. A classic remake theory.

This is all to show that the remake theory does not have any sound logic behind it, because the same argument could be used to present Super Metroid as a remake.

Quote from nn12000:

For anyone who has played SM, ZM/M, just because the Morph ball is in the same spot doesn't mean that it's the same game.

The remake side uses that as proof that it is a remake though. I think that is a weak point. Thanks for agreeing with me on that.

Quote from nn12000:

Here's the link too: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856

Yeah, I know. It proves me right. That is why I have it in my presentation.

Quote from nn12000:

I really don't know how you see ZM is a remake of SM.

People say it is a remake of Metroid because it has areas from Metroid. The same would have to also apply for Super Metroid as well, since Zero Mission also has areas from Super Metroid.

Quote from nn12000:

Even if SM was a "Perfect" remake of M, then wouldn't the map layouts be the same?

Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember. Look at the King Kong movies.

Quote from nn12000:

Would you not start right next to the Morph Ball?

That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.

Quote from nn12000:

Would the game not end with MB being defeated, without the whole being saved by the "Super" baby metroid?

Retcons.

Quote from nn12000:

Why would the game even make a recollection back to Metroid 1?

It was not remembering Metroid 1, it was remembering a mission that involved the defeat of Mother Brain. Zero Mission was made to take that spot.

Quote from nn12000:

Now, back to ZM. USING THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM NINTENDO:::

If M and ZM weren't basically the same game, then why were the challenges basically the same?

Nintendo said the challenges were new, not the same. You should read it again.

Quote from nn12000:

Why is it that the Sequence Breaks can be pulled off in both the games?

What does that have to do with anything?

Quote from nn12000:

Why is it that all the items are literally found in the same spot?

There are many new items in Zero Mission. Plus some of the old items are in different locations.

Quote from nn12000:

Why are the games so friggin similar if they aren't the same? WHY?

Why are the Mario games so similar if they are not all the same? Designers repeat plots for other games all the time.

Quote from nn12000:

If ZM wasn't a remake of M, then what is the point of ZM?

To show Samus' past, and her first mission. You know, the first mission before all the others, like Metroid and Metroid Prime.

Quote from nn12000:

ANyone with a decent amount of common sense would realize that these games are the same, one remade with better graphics, sound, etc. with an improved storyline to enhance the game and make people who haven't played the original to understand the whole Metroid concept.

Are you talking about Super Metroid?

Quote from nn12000:

This game has features that they couldn't put in the original metroid, but they wanted the game to feel like the other Metroids previously made before ZM.

That is the same case with Super Metroid. All of the differences in Super Metroid are just cases where they added more to Metroid when they remade it.

[quote="Smops"] The sources mentioned in the ZM article are, however.[/quote]

What sources state that it is a remake? Certainly not Nintendo. Wikipedia had IMDB listed as a source, until their review changed to state that it was the story of Samus' first mission. Then they deleted it. They are biased. They even state that IGN was there reference for release dates and development teams, however, IGN first stated that Intelligent Systems developed Zero Mission. Wikipedia copied that information. It was not until I came to argue the article that it was discovered, through my efforts of course, that Intelligent Systems did not develop the game, but rather it was Nintendo's R&D1 staff. Wikipedia corrected that mistake and informed IGN. IGN corrected their mistake as well, yet they are still considered reliable because a few Wikipedians still think it is a remake? That is communism.

[quote="Emerl"] Again, Dai, you are interperating the facts incorrectly to furthur your argument. The game does not change the Metroid formula enough that your interpretation of his statement could be correct. The debate is only over when you have sufficiently proven your argument to the point that there is no counterargument.

There is no counter argument. I have not seen any evidence brought up against the prequel timeline. I have seen no evidence that the game is a remake, or at the least, not a prequel. The debate is over on the grounds that the remake side has no argument.

[quote="Emerl"] As this topic is still alive, there are plenty of counterarguments, none of which you have disproven without making up some gunship way to look at it by twisting words.[/quote]

No, there are many disagreements. In other words there are many posts saying that I am wrong, that I twist facts, or that I am insane. That is not a timeline argument, it is just spam.

[quote="Emerl"] Oh, and retcons CAN change the story. Look at the Mega Man X series.[/quote]

Those are re-envisionings/imaginings. Retroactive Continuity focuses on preserving continuity, not breaking it apart.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Fail. Retcons also delete elements from previous stated canon, add elements to previously exisiting canon, or completely delete existing canon and replace it with something different (E.G.; making a new version of Super Metroid that completely erases the events in the SNES Super Metroid, and instead having the game be about Samus fighting the Power Rangers).[/quote]

That is not what retconning is. Anyone that uses it to describe such a storyline rewrite is misusing the term.

[quote="Doctor ?"] What Zero Mission did is this: The took the original NES Metroid, gave it a graphical facelift, and retconned things in and out of the game (elevator placements, item locations, etc).[/quote]

Where... is... the proof?

[quote="Doctor ?"] These additions and subtractions does not make it a prequel to the NES Metroid. Samus' first mission was, and always will be, the events that occured in Metroid/Zero Mission.[/quote]

"Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible." - Metroid

Also, Sakamoto said that storyline consistency was important to him. This is why he worked so hard on Metroid Prime, to make it match the events of Metroid. Why would he then change the events of Metroid to undermine his previous hard work?

Also, there was nothing added or subtracted from Metroid. Zero Mission was created with Metroid's areas as a basis for design. The creators of Zero Mission created a new world though, which is seen in almost every room of Zero Mission. If they cared about doing a remake of Metroid, then it would have matched Metroid. That is the point of doing a remake. You want to want to make and old game better and stick to the storyline of that game. New games on the other hand are opportunities where designers can do whatever they want and shape the story to whatever they have in mind. They made a new game and a new adventure, because they did not want to conform to a set design that was not theirs. This is obvious in the many differences in the levels and storyline.

[quote="Doctor ?"] I honestly don't see what's so hard to understand about this.[/quote]

I understand your idea, but that is all it is. It is your opinion that they did all that. It is not fact. Moreover, I have a different opinion of what went through their heads during production and I base this on the 2nd interview that Sakamoto had where he talked about Fusion, the series, and the then new game being made, Zero Mission. He stated that consistency is important to him and the series in order to see it grow, and that making new games is something that they can always look forward to since it is their creation.

[quote="Doctor ?"] Zero Mission IS the original Metroid, but with a graphical update and new elements added. Saying that it's a prequel is like saying that the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 is a prequel to the NES SMB3 because it has a graphical update, or saying that Links Awakening DX is a prequel to Links Awakening, because it's in color and has new levels.[/quote]

No it is not. Those games do not break away from the original storyline. They also do not depict worlds that are less detailed or developed as the originals. I have never said that the game is a prequel or not a remake just because the worlds do not look the same. I said it is not a remake because the worlds are vastly different. There is no implication in the game showing that the designers even tried to match Metroid in design. I also said that the game is a prequel because the areas depicted imply an earlier time frame. The caverns are still cave like, instead of the more developed look they have in Metroid. The statues in the elevator rooms are basic and plain in Zero Mission but detailed and finely crafted in Metroid. Also, the room before Kraid is basic and plain, but in Metroid its ceiling shows what looks like a lizard's head with eyes and fangs. If Zero Mission were a remake, why wouldn't they remake that room to look similar? Why make it look nothing like the one in Metroid let alone like... nothing special?

[quote="Doctor ?"] Zero Mission doesn't tell a story before the NES Metroid. It elaborates on the story that the NES Metroid told.[/quote]

Have you played Zero Mission? It tells the story of Samus' childhood for one thing. Other than that, Samus said she would finally tell the tale of her first battle on Zebes, even though Metroid is a tale that has been told. Zero Mission is also described to be Samus' first mission in multiple sources, including the commercial.

[quote="KennyMan666"] My first question to Dai is how the hell you still can believe in this yourself.[/quote]

Because it's the truth.

[quote="KennyMan666"] For any newcomers to this topic, here is Dai Grepher's logic.

This is Metroid. 
 
(this pic will hereafter be refered to as M)

This is Metroid: Zero Mission. 
 
(this pic will hereafter be refered to as Z)

Because Z is not a total, complete and down-to-the-pixel copy of M, Zero Mission cannot be a remake of Metroid.[/quote]

I have never said anything of the sort. It does not have to match down to the last pixil. However, it should at least be similar. As you can see by those pictures you posted, there are many things different about those areas. In Zero Mission there are no single blocks on the inner sides of the two outside posts. The main column with the Morph Ball looks different. Even this is acceptable in a remake, but when you add this with the many others differences in level design in almost every room, then what you have is a game like Super Metroid. A game that has the same areas appear, but in a different time frame.

Also, the most important room, the Mother Brain room, was not designed with Super Metroid in mind. Super Metroid shows the old Tourian in the flashback and game. It shows a brain pod that is damaged and inactive but still intact with even some shards of glass present. However, Zero Mission's destroyed brain pod is nothing but a pile of rubble. Observe:

[img]http://img203.echo.cx/img203/518/destroyedbrainpod5js.png[/img]

Not only is the pod metallic swiss cheese, but there is no fifth Zeebetite right in front of the pod. Even the background is different from what it should look like had this been Metroid. The designers simply did not recreate Metroid when they made Zero Mission. All of these major differences prove that it is a new adventure.

[quote="KennyMan666"] I wish I would have taken notes while venturing through this topic, because Dai contradicted himself at various points - but there was one I specifically remember.

Dai Grepher wrote: Remakes change things, remember?

This, or something with the same meaning, was said at least three times. By the same person.

Hypocrisy meter overload. I rest my case.[/quote]

You obviously did not read the topic thoroughly. That is the excuse that the remake side uses to explain why Zero Mission is different. In other words, it is a remake because it is different and it is different because it is a remake. So in response to this circular logic, I presented the idea that Super Metroid was also a remake under that same illogic. I said that Super Metroid was a remake, and when people presented me with differences to prove that it was a different game (as I had done with Zero Mission no less), I claimed that remakes change things, then told them to remember that this is what they had said as an excuse why Zero Mission was different.

So this was just a hypothetical point I used to argue the remake side's illogical excuse.

[quote="RT-55J"] IIRC, that quote is from a tangent wherein Dai tried to invalidate our logic by using it to prove SM is a remake of Metroid or something like that. I'm not too sure because didn't read half of the topic.[/quote]

That is correct, but I did not try, I did.

[quote="nn12000"] Yeah, I've been trying to stay away, but people like Dai piss me off. So, I have come to post my statement.[/quote]

A topic about a video game is all it takes to anger you?

[quote="nn12000"] Back to the whole SM being a perfect remake of M... Why would a game begin where an older one ended if it was a remake?[/quote]

Ever since Metroid II, the creators of the series wanted Metroid to be placed after Metroid II. However, the technology at that time did not allow such story telling and the NES Metroid was limited. So they made Super Metroid to retcon Metroid to be Metroid II's sequel. However, this left a gap in the storyline before Metroid II, so they made Zero Mission to be that mission, the first mission.

So you have your "blame the NES" logic, the misuse of "retcon", and the "creators always intended" assumption. A classic remake theory.

This is all to show that the remake theory does not have any sound logic behind it, because the same argument could be used to present Super Metroid as a remake.

[quote="nn12000"] For anyone who has played SM, ZM/M, just because the Morph ball is in the same spot doesn't mean that it's the same game.[/quote]

The remake side uses that as proof that it is a remake though. I think that is a weak point. Thanks for agreeing with me on that.

[quote="nn12000"] Here's the link too: http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856[/quote]

Yeah, I know. It proves me right. That is why I have it in my presentation.

[quote="nn12000"] I really don't know how you see ZM is a remake of SM.[/quote]

People say it is a remake of Metroid because it has areas from Metroid. The same would have to also apply for Super Metroid as well, since Zero Mission also has areas from Super Metroid.

[quote="nn12000"] Even if SM was a "Perfect" remake of M, then wouldn't the map layouts be the same?[/quote]

Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember. Look at the King Kong movies.

[quote="nn12000"] Would you not start right next to the Morph Ball?[/quote]

That is added storyline. Plus, Zero Mission does not begin next to the Morph Ball either. It begins with Samus landing on the planet. Super Metroid just gives us the added bonus of going to the starting point on our own.

[quote="nn12000"] Would the game not end with MB being defeated, without the whole being saved by the "Super" baby metroid?[/quote]

Retcons.  :grinnew:

[quote="nn12000"] Why would the game even make a recollection back to Metroid 1?[/quote]

It was not remembering Metroid 1, it was remembering a mission that involved the defeat of Mother Brain. Zero Mission was made to take that spot.

[quote="nn12000"] Now, back to ZM. USING THE ABOVE QUOTE FROM NINTENDO:::

If M and ZM weren't basically the same game, then why were the challenges basically the same?[/quote]

Nintendo said the challenges were new, not the same. You should read it again.

[quote="nn12000"] Why is it that the Sequence Breaks can be pulled off in both the games?[/quote]

What does that have to do with anything?

[quote="nn12000"] Why is it that all the items are literally found in the same spot?[/quote]

There are many new items in Zero Mission. Plus some of the old items are in different locations.

[quote="nn12000"] Why are the games so friggin similar if they aren't the same? WHY?[/quote]

Why are the Mario games so similar if they are not all the same? Designers repeat plots for other games all the time.

[quote="nn12000"] If ZM wasn't a remake of M, then what is the point of ZM?[/quote]

To show Samus' past, and her first mission. You know, the first mission before all the others, like Metroid and Metroid Prime.

[quote="nn12000"] ANyone with a decent amount of common sense would realize that these games are the same, one remade with better graphics, sound, etc. with an improved storyline to enhance the game and make people who haven't played the original to understand the whole Metroid concept.[/quote]

Are you talking about Super Metroid?

[quote="nn12000"] This game has features that they couldn't put in the original metroid, but they wanted the game to feel like the other Metroids previously made before ZM.[/quote]

That is the same case with Super Metroid. All of the differences in Super Metroid are just cases where they added more to Metroid when they remade it.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-31 05:40:14 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Dai Grepher:

There is no counter argument. I have not seen any evidence brought up against the prequel timeline. I have seen no evidence that the game is a remake, or at the least, not a prequel. The debate is over on the grounds that the remake side has no argument.

Don't be so ludicrously arrogant. Just because you do not agree with the other side or see its reasoning does not mean the other side has no case. I've lost all respect for you.

nn12000

2006-05-31 06:02:09 pm

Mister ...

I'm done here. Screw this topic. I really don't see any point in trying to convince someone who's more stubborn than a mule. Normally, I would sit here and try to convince Dai that ZM is a remake of M, and that they do fall into the same timeline position, but I have better things to do with my time then sit here and type oversized posts about ZM.

WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER IF ZM IS A REMAKE OR NOT? ASK YOURSELF THAT WHEN YOU SEE THAT DAI, WHY DOES IT MATTER? It's just a game that was thrown into the series. Does it really matter if ZM is a remake? Honestly.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

I've lost all respect for you.

I don't think I could've said this any better myself.

SABERinBLUE

2006-05-31 06:10:31 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from nn12000:

WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER IF ZM IS A REMAKE OR NOT? ASK YOURSELF THAT WHEN YOU SEE THAT DAI, WHY DOES IT MATTER? It's just a game that was thrown into the series. Does it really matter if ZM is a remake? Honestly.

Why must you declare your lack of interest in things so loudly?

Quote:

Quote from Arkarian:

I've lost all respect for you.

I don't think I could've said this any better myself.

It's Saber, not Arkarian, and you really don't know the overarcing context of that statement there.

Doctor ?

2006-05-31 06:12:19 pm

::WARNING::
Big, long post of doom.

Quote:

Those are re-envisionings/imaginings. Retroactive Continuity focuses on preserving continuity, not breaking it apart.

That is not what retconning is. Anyone that uses it to describe such a storyline rewrite is misusing the term.

Allow me to elaborate more on retroactive continuity.

Retroactive continuity — commonly contracted to the blend retcon — is the adding of new information to "historical" material, or deliberately changing previously established facts in a work of serial fiction. The change itself is referred to as a "retcon", and the act of writing and publishing a retcon is called "retconning".

Retcons are common in comic books, especially those of large publishing houses such as Marvel Comics and DC Comics, due to the lengthy history of many series and the number of independent authors contributing to their development; this is the context in which the term was coined. Retconning also occurs in TV shows, movies sequels, video games, radio series, series of novels, and can be done in any other type of episodic fiction. It is also used in roleplaying, when the game master feels it is needed to maintain consistency in the story or to fix significant mistakes that were missed during play.

The term "retroactive continuity" was popularized by comic book writer Roy Thomas in his 1980s series All-Star Squadron, which featured the DC Comics superheroes of the 1940s. The earliest known use of the term is from Thomas's letter column in All-Star Squadron #20 (April 1983), where Thomas wrote that he heard it at a convention. The term was shortened to "retcon" by Damian Cugley in 1988 on USENET to describe a development in the comic book Swamp Thing, in which Alan Moore reinterpreted the events of the title character's origin.

Although there is considerable ambiguity and overlap between different kinds of retcons, there are some distinctions that can be made between different types of retcons, depending on whether they add to, alter, or remove material from past continuity. These distinctions often evoke different reactions from fans of the material.

Addition
Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points. This was the sense in which Thomas used "retroactive continuity", as a purely additive process that did not "undo" any previous work, a common theme in his work on All-Star Squadron. Kurt Busiek took a similar approach with Untold Tales of Spider-Man, a series which told stories that specifically fit between issues of the original Amazing Spider-Man series, sometimes explaining discontinuities between those earlier stories.

Related to this is the concept of shadow history or secret history, in which the events of a story occur within the bounds of already-established events (especially real-world historical events), revealing a different interpretation of (or motivation for) the events. Some of Tim Powers novels are examples of this, such as Last Call, which suggests that Bugsy Siegel's actions were due to his being a modern-day Fisher King.

Alan Moore's additional information about the Swamp Thing's origins didn't contradict or change any of the events depicted in the character's previous appearances, but changed the underlying interpretation of them. This verges on making alterations to past continuity.

Alteration
Retcons often add information that effectively states "what you saw isn't what really happened" and then introduces a different version. This is usually interpreted by the audience as an overt change rather than a mere addition. The most common form this takes is when a character shown to have died (sometimes explicitly) is later revealed to have survived somehow. This is well known in horror films, which may end with the death of the monster, but when the film becomes successful, the studio plans a sequel, revealing that the monster survived after all. This has been done many times in superhero comics, so frequently that the term comic book death has been coined for it. The first famous example in popular culture is the return of Sherlock Holmes: Writer Arthur Conan Doyle killed off the popular character in an encounter with his foe Professor Moriarty, only to bring Holmes back, due in large part to audience response.

It is commonplace for characters to remain the same age, or to age out of synch with real time; this can be considered an ongoing implicit retcon of their birthdate. When historical events are involved in their biography, overt retcons may be used to accommodate this; a character who served in the army during World War II might have his service record retconned to place him in the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, etc. This is similar to a problem faced by many works of future history: the events they describe happening in years after the initial publication do not conform to history as it actually happens. To accommodate such discrepancies, retcons may be used in later stories, altering dates or other details.

While retconning is usually done without comment by the creators, DC Comics has on rare occasions promoted special events dedicated to revising the history of the DC Comics universe. The most important and well known such event was the mini-series Crisis on Infinite Earths; this allowed for wholesale revisions of their entire multiverse of characters. It has been argued that these were not true retcons, however, because the cause of the changes to their universe actually appeared within the story, similar to stories in which a time traveler to the past changes history from how he remembered it.

Subtraction
Sometimes retconned alterations are so drastic as to render prior stories untenable. Many of the retcons introduced in Crisis on Infinite Earths and DC's later Zero Hour were specifically intended to wipe the slate clean, and permit an entirely new history to be written for the characters. This is commonly referred to as a reboot. This is often very unpopular, upsetting fans of the material that has been removed from continuity.

Unpopular or embarrassing stories are sometimes later ignored by publishers, never referred to again, and effectively erased from a series' continuity. They may publish stories that contradict the previous story or explicitly establish that it "never happened". Likewise, an unpopular retcon may even be re-retconned away. A good example of this type is the Star Trek: Voyager episode Threshold in which Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 threshold and undergoes bizarre changes; the episode was deemed non-canon by Brannon Braga and has never been referred to in the series again.

Fans may use Krypto-revisionism to ignore a particular retcon, itself a form of meta-retcon stating that "it was never published". Similarly, fans may invent unofficial explanations for inconsistencies, the challenge itself becoming a source of entertainment.

Related
Retroactive continuity is similar to, but not the same as, plot inconsistencies introduced accidentally or through lack of concern for continuity; retconning is done deliberately. For example, the ongoing continuity contradictions on episodic TV series such as The Golden Girls reflects very loose continuity, not genuine retcons. However, in series with generally tight continuity, retcons are sometimes created after the fact to explain continuity errors. Retconning is also generally distinct from replacing the actor who plays a part in an ongoing series, which is more properly an example of loose continuity (i.e. the different appearance of the character is ignored), rather than retroactively changing past continuity.

Retconning is also distinct from direct revision; when George Lucas re-edited the original Star Wars trilogy, he made changes directly to the source material, rather than introducing new source material that contradicted the contents of previous material. However, the later series of Star Wars prequels did qualify as "new source material", and many fans have pointed out instances that apparently retcon elements of the original trilogy.

The "clean slate" reinterpretation of characters - as in movie and television adaptations of books, or the reintroduction of many superheroes in the Silver Age of Comics - is similar to a reboot retcon, except that the previous versions are not explicitly or implicitly eliminated in the process. These are merely alternate or parallel reinterpretations.

Examples of Retcons

- By their very nature, the Star Wars prequels are loaded with retcons in the broader sense of the term, such as a previously unmentioned relationship between Yoda and Chewbacca introduced in Revenge of the Sith. The prequels also contain some overt revisions of history, as in The Phantom Menace where it is revealed that Anakin Skywalker built C-3PO, and in Attack of the Clones where we find that C-3PO and R2-D2 knew Owen Lars and his wife Beru, despite their apparent unfamiliarity with Luke's family and Tatooine itself at the beginning of A New Hope. This apparent discrepancy was "fixed" with another retcon in one of the final scenes of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, in which Bail Organa orders the memory of C-3PO to be wiped. The official novelization of Return of the Jedi stated that Luke Skywalker's "Uncle" Owen Lars was the brother of Obi-Wan Kenobi, but Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones establishes that Owen is actually the stepbrother of Anakin Skywalker, and no relation to Obi-Wan. There is an argument to be made for the idea that the revelations in the later movies of the original trilogy of Darth Vader as Luke's father and Princess Leia as Luke's sister are retcons, (especially the matter of Luke and Leia, since they have a fledgling romantic relationship in A New Hope and the following novels).

- The classic anime series Mobile Suit Gundam received a retcon courtesy of a trio of anthology movies. Through these movies, Gundam creator Yoshiyuki Tomino changed several elements of the show by changing the order of some events, removing others, and eliminating the "goofier" elements of the television series in favor of more realistic ones. The movies are typically accepted as the canon version of these events.

- Retcons abound in the British TV series Red Dwarf — such matters as what century the characters originated from, how many people were on the ship and many others have been changed. Series co-creator Doug Naylor has gone on record saying that they have always had a very relaxed attitude to continuity, and if something could be changed for the better, then they would change it.

- In the sitcom Cheers, Frasier Crane said that his father was a deceased research scientist. However, the spin-off Frasier featured Frasier's father Martin as an ex-cop living in Seattle. Frasier later explained that he had lied to his friends in Boston after having a bitter argument with his father.

- In Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, Snake confronts and kills Big Boss before finding out that he is his father. However, in the sequel Metal Gear Solid, it is revealed that he is a clone of him. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, which is set in 1964, follows the exploits of Big Boss and Ocelot, adding many details about their past and motivations, and details about the story in general.

- Lara Croft's backstory biography, as set forth in the manuals of the first games has been deleted and altered in order to fit the story of the movies, which contradicted the original continuity.

And the coup de grace...

- Metroid Zero Mission for Game Boy Advance essentially retcons the original Metroid for NES, explaining why Samus has a different Power Suit in the sequels. Likewise in order to make the series less dependent on the titular aliens, the word 'metroid' was retconned to mean 'ultimate warrior' in the Chozo language in the manual of Metroid Fusion for Game Boy Advance, which could thus signify Samus Aran herself instead of the lifeform.

Quote:

Not only is the pod metallic swiss cheese, but there is no fifth Zeebetite right in front of the pod. Even the background is different from what it should look like had this been Metroid. The designers simply did not recreate Metroid when they made Zero Mission. All of these major differences prove that it is a new adventure.

More Dai Grepher logic: "The background artwork is completely different, and there is a ledge missing between the two games. Therefore these are two entirely different games."

Quote:

Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember. Look at the King Kong movies.

I think you just zinged yourself there.

Quote:

Nintendo said the challenges were new, not the same. You should read it again.

Don't believe everything Nintendo says. Remember the Zelda video for when the GameCube first came out? We got Celda instead.

Quote:

Are you talking about Super Metroid?

He's talking about Zero Mission.

Here, I'll try to put it in ways that you can comprehend.

Nintendo makes Metroid. Later on down the road, they want to improve upon Samus' first game, because she's become such an icon to Nintendo's fans. So they commission Zero Mission. Zero Mission's intent is to RETELL the story of Samus' first mission, to let old gamers relive her first battle against the Metroids, and also to let new gamers to the series find out where Samus first started. Of course, the graphics for the NES are things of ancient times, and thusly Nintendo decides to give it a major graphic and sound overhaul. In the process, they say, 'hey, Metroid didn't have much of a storyline. Lets fill in the gaps by providing more details about Samus' first mission." So they do. They add cutscenes, they add monologues as told by Samus. And to explain how Samus' suit takes such a drastic change from the first Metroid game to the next, they add Chozodia and the Space Pirate frigate, in which you fight a little boss to recieve the Varia suit. Nintendo finds it suitable, and they release it.

Now answer me this. In the manual for Zero Mission it says that Zero Mission lets you relive Samus' original mission, and that it retells the story of said mission. How can you retell and relive something that hasn't happened yet? You can't. Therefore, Zero Mission can not be a brand new game, because it's not a mission which was never told. The mission in Zero Mission is the mission in the NES Metroid - hence why you can relive it, and why it can be retold.

Are the graphics the same? No. Is the level layout the same? No. But is the storyline the same? Absolutely. You go from level to level in just about the same exact way in the NES Metroid, fight the bosses in just about the same exact order as in the NES Metroid. It's a remake. Get over it already.

::WARNING::
Big, long post of doom.

[quote]Those are re-envisionings/imaginings. Retroactive Continuity focuses on preserving continuity, not breaking it apart.

That is not what retconning is. Anyone that uses it to describe such a storyline rewrite is misusing the term.[/quote]

Allow me to elaborate more on retroactive continuity.

Retroactive continuity — commonly contracted to the blend retcon — is the adding of new information to "historical" material, or deliberately changing previously established facts in a work of serial fiction. The change itself is referred to as a "retcon", and the act of writing and publishing a retcon is called "retconning".

Retcons are common in comic books, especially those of large publishing houses such as Marvel Comics and DC Comics, due to the lengthy history of many series and the number of independent authors contributing to their development; this is the context in which the term was coined. Retconning also occurs in TV shows, movies sequels, video games, radio series, series of novels, and can be done in any other type of episodic fiction. It is also used in roleplaying, when the game master feels it is needed to maintain consistency in the story or to fix significant mistakes that were missed during play.

The term "retroactive continuity" was popularized by comic book writer Roy Thomas in his 1980s series All-Star Squadron, which featured the DC Comics superheroes of the 1940s. The earliest known use of the term is from Thomas's letter column in All-Star Squadron #20 (April 1983), where Thomas wrote that he heard it at a convention. The term was shortened to "retcon" by Damian Cugley in 1988 on USENET to describe a development in the comic book Swamp Thing, in which Alan Moore reinterpreted the events of the title character's origin.

Although there is considerable ambiguity and overlap between different kinds of retcons, there are some distinctions that can be made between different types of retcons, depending on whether they add to, alter, or remove material from past continuity. These distinctions often evoke different reactions from fans of the material.

[b]Addition[/b]
Some retcons do not directly contradict previously established facts, but "fill in" missing background details, usually to support current plot points. This was the sense in which Thomas used "retroactive continuity", as a purely additive process that did not "undo" any previous work, a common theme in his work on All-Star Squadron. Kurt Busiek took a similar approach with Untold Tales of Spider-Man, a series which told stories that specifically fit between issues of the original Amazing Spider-Man series, sometimes explaining discontinuities between those earlier stories.

Related to this is the concept of shadow history or secret history, in which the events of a story occur within the bounds of already-established events (especially real-world historical events), revealing a different interpretation of (or motivation for) the events. Some of Tim Powers novels are examples of this, such as Last Call, which suggests that Bugsy Siegel's actions were due to his being a modern-day Fisher King.

Alan Moore's additional information about the Swamp Thing's origins didn't contradict or change any of the events depicted in the character's previous appearances, but changed the underlying interpretation of them. This verges on making alterations to past continuity.

[b]Alteration[/b]
Retcons often add information that effectively states "what you saw isn't what really happened" and then introduces a different version. This is usually interpreted by the audience as an overt change rather than a mere addition. The most common form this takes is when a character shown to have died (sometimes explicitly) is later revealed to have survived somehow. This is well known in horror films, which may end with the death of the monster, but when the film becomes successful, the studio plans a sequel, revealing that the monster survived after all. This has been done many times in superhero comics, so frequently that the term comic book death has been coined for it. The first famous example in popular culture is the return of Sherlock Holmes: Writer Arthur Conan Doyle killed off the popular character in an encounter with his foe Professor Moriarty, only to bring Holmes back, due in large part to audience response.

It is commonplace for characters to remain the same age, or to age out of synch with real time; this can be considered an ongoing implicit retcon of their birthdate. When historical events are involved in their biography, overt retcons may be used to accommodate this; a character who served in the army during World War II might have his service record retconned to place him in the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, etc. This is similar to a problem faced by many works of future history: the events they describe happening in years after the initial publication do not conform to history as it actually happens. To accommodate such discrepancies, retcons may be used in later stories, altering dates or other details.

While retconning is usually done without comment by the creators, DC Comics has on rare occasions promoted special events dedicated to revising the history of the DC Comics universe. The most important and well known such event was the mini-series Crisis on Infinite Earths; this allowed for wholesale revisions of their entire multiverse of characters. It has been argued that these were not true retcons, however, because the cause of the changes to their universe actually appeared within the story, similar to stories in which a time traveler to the past changes history from how he remembered it.

[b]Subtraction[/b]
Sometimes retconned alterations are so drastic as to render prior stories untenable. Many of the retcons introduced in Crisis on Infinite Earths and DC's later Zero Hour were specifically intended to wipe the slate clean, and permit an entirely new history to be written for the characters. This is commonly referred to as a reboot. This is often very unpopular, upsetting fans of the material that has been removed from continuity.

Unpopular or embarrassing stories are sometimes later ignored by publishers, never referred to again, and effectively erased from a series' continuity. They may publish stories that contradict the previous story or explicitly establish that it "never happened". Likewise, an unpopular retcon may even be re-retconned away. A good example of this type is the Star Trek: Voyager episode Threshold in which Tom Paris breaks the Warp 10 threshold and undergoes bizarre changes; the episode was deemed non-canon by Brannon Braga and has never been referred to in the series again.

Fans may use Krypto-revisionism to ignore a particular retcon, itself a form of meta-retcon stating that "it was never published". Similarly, fans may invent unofficial explanations for inconsistencies, the challenge itself becoming a source of entertainment.

[b]Related[/b]
Retroactive continuity is similar to, but not the same as, plot inconsistencies introduced accidentally or through lack of concern for continuity; retconning is done deliberately. For example, the ongoing continuity contradictions on episodic TV series such as The Golden Girls reflects very loose continuity, not genuine retcons. However, in series with generally tight continuity, retcons are sometimes created after the fact to explain continuity errors. Retconning is also generally distinct from replacing the actor who plays a part in an ongoing series, which is more properly an example of loose continuity (i.e. the different appearance of the character is ignored), rather than retroactively changing past continuity.

Retconning is also distinct from direct revision; when George Lucas re-edited the original Star Wars trilogy, he made changes directly to the source material, rather than introducing new source material that contradicted the contents of previous material. However, the later series of Star Wars prequels did qualify as "new source material", and many fans have pointed out instances that apparently retcon elements of the original trilogy.

The "clean slate" reinterpretation of characters - as in movie and television adaptations of books, or the reintroduction of many superheroes in the Silver Age of Comics - is similar to a reboot retcon, except that the previous versions are not explicitly or implicitly eliminated in the process. These are merely alternate or parallel reinterpretations.

[b]Examples of Retcons[/b]

- By their very nature, the Star Wars prequels are loaded with retcons in the broader sense of the term, such as a previously unmentioned relationship between Yoda and Chewbacca introduced in Revenge of the Sith. The prequels also contain some overt revisions of history, as in The Phantom Menace where it is revealed that Anakin Skywalker built C-3PO, and in Attack of the Clones where we find that C-3PO and R2-D2 knew Owen Lars and his wife Beru, despite their apparent unfamiliarity with Luke's family and Tatooine itself at the beginning of A New Hope. This apparent discrepancy was "fixed" with another retcon in one of the final scenes of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, in which Bail Organa orders the memory of C-3PO to be wiped. The official novelization of Return of the Jedi stated that Luke Skywalker's "Uncle" Owen Lars was the brother of Obi-Wan Kenobi, but Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones establishes that Owen is actually the stepbrother of Anakin Skywalker, and no relation to Obi-Wan. There is an argument to be made for the idea that the revelations in the later movies of the original trilogy of Darth Vader as Luke's father and Princess Leia as Luke's sister are retcons, (especially the matter of Luke and Leia, since they have a fledgling romantic relationship in A New Hope and the following novels).

- The classic anime series Mobile Suit Gundam received a retcon courtesy of a trio of anthology movies. Through these movies, Gundam creator Yoshiyuki Tomino changed several elements of the show by changing the order of some events, removing others, and eliminating the "goofier" elements of the television series in favor of more realistic ones. The movies are typically accepted as the canon version of these events.

- Retcons abound in the British TV series Red Dwarf — such matters as what century the characters originated from, how many people were on the ship and many others have been changed. Series co-creator Doug Naylor has gone on record saying that they have always had a very relaxed attitude to continuity, and if something could be changed for the better, then they would change it.

- In the sitcom Cheers, Frasier Crane said that his father was a deceased research scientist. However, the spin-off Frasier featured Frasier's father Martin as an ex-cop living in Seattle. Frasier later explained that he had lied to his friends in Boston after having a bitter argument with his father.

- In Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, Snake confronts and kills Big Boss before finding out that he is his father. However, in the sequel Metal Gear Solid, it is revealed that he is a clone of him. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, which is set in 1964, follows the exploits of Big Boss and Ocelot, adding many details about their past and motivations, and details about the story in general.

- Lara Croft's backstory biography, as set forth in the manuals of the first games has been deleted and altered in order to fit the story of the movies, which contradicted the original continuity.

And the coup de grace...

[b]- Metroid Zero Mission for Game Boy Advance essentially retcons the original Metroid for NES, explaining why Samus has a different Power Suit in the sequels. Likewise in order to make the series less dependent on the titular aliens, the word 'metroid' was retconned to mean 'ultimate warrior' in the Chozo language in the manual of Metroid Fusion for Game Boy Advance, which could thus signify Samus Aran herself instead of the lifeform.[/b]

[quote]Not only is the pod metallic swiss cheese, but there is no fifth Zeebetite right in front of the pod. Even the background is different from what it should look like had this been Metroid. The designers simply did not recreate Metroid when they made Zero Mission. All of these major differences prove that it is a new adventure.[/quote]

More Dai Grepher logic: "The background artwork is completely different, and there is a ledge missing between the two games.  Therefore these are two entirely different games."

[quote]Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember. Look at the King Kong movies.[/quote]

I think you just zinged yourself there.

[quote]Nintendo said the challenges were new, not the same. You should read it again.[/quote]

Don't believe everything Nintendo says.  Remember the Zelda video for when the GameCube first came out?  We got Celda instead.

[quote]Are you talking about Super Metroid?[/quote]

He's talking about Zero Mission.

Here, I'll try to put it in ways that you can comprehend.

Nintendo makes Metroid.  Later on down the road, they want to improve upon Samus' first game, because she's become such an icon to Nintendo's fans.  So they commission Zero Mission.  Zero Mission's intent is to RETELL the story of Samus' first mission, to let old gamers relive her first battle against the Metroids, and also to let new gamers to the series find out where Samus first started.  Of course, the graphics for the NES are things of ancient times, and thusly Nintendo decides to give it a major graphic and sound overhaul.  In the process, they say, 'hey, Metroid didn't have much of a storyline.  Lets fill in the gaps by providing more details about Samus' first mission."  So they do.  They add cutscenes, they add monologues as told by Samus.  And to explain how Samus' suit takes such a drastic change from the first Metroid game to the next, they add Chozodia and the Space Pirate frigate, in which you fight a little boss to recieve the Varia suit.  Nintendo finds it suitable, and they release it.

Now answer me this.  In the manual for Zero Mission it says that Zero Mission lets you relive Samus' original mission, and that it retells the story of said mission.  How can you retell and relive something that hasn't happened yet?  You can't.  Therefore, Zero Mission can not be a brand new game, because it's not a mission which was never told.  The mission in Zero Mission is the mission in the NES Metroid - hence why you can relive it, and why it can be retold.

Are the graphics the same?  No.  Is the level layout the same?  No.  But is the storyline the same?  Absolutely.  You go from level to level in just about the same exact way in the NES Metroid, fight the bosses in just about the same exact order as in the NES Metroid.  It's a remake.  Get over it already.

Prime Hunter

2006-05-31 06:14:17 pm

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember.

So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?

The map layouts for Metroid and ZM are very similar. They each have Brinstar, Norfair, Tourian, and the boss lairs almost in the same place, with the elevators to access them around the same location as well. Take that and compare it to Super. Are the layouts anywhere near the same? No. Brinstar and Norfair (And Crateria, for that matter) are in the same general location compared to each other, but that's it. Super's rooms reference the past adventure all across Zebes. (You can see this quite easily in the first few minutes after landing through the wrecked Tourian and the escape shaft.)

Quote from Dai Grepher:

I also said that the game is a prequel because the areas depicted imply an earlier time frame. The caverns are still cave like, instead of the more developed look they have in Metroid. The statues in the elevator rooms are basic and plain in Zero Mission but detailed and finely crafted in Metroid. Also, the room before Kraid is basic and plain, but in Metroid its ceiling shows what looks like a lizard's head with eyes and fangs. If Zero Mission were a remake, why wouldn't they remake that room to look similar? Why make it look nothing like the one in Metroid let alone like... nothing special?

Have you ever considered the fact that they may have wanted it to look that way compared to what it looks like in Super, not Metroid? Prime even states in a Pirate Log that half of the surviving Pirates stay behind and rebuild Zebes. Why can't they have taken the caverns from ZM and turn them into the ones from Super? They have a lot of time to do this before Samus comes back. (Think of how long it is between Metroid/ZM and Super.)

Besides, you say that it IMPLIES that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your OPINION isn't proof at all.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is [b][i]that it is similar[/i][/b]. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember.[/quote]
So... why can't the actual room designs follow that same reasoning? If the map layouts don't have to be the exact same, why do the room layouts need to be the same for ZM to be a remake of Metroid?

The map layouts for Metroid and ZM are very similar. They each have Brinstar, Norfair, Tourian, and the boss lairs almost in the same place, with the elevators to access them around the same location as well. Take that and compare it to Super. Are the layouts anywhere near the same? No. Brinstar and Norfair (And Crateria, for that matter) are in the same general location compared to each other, but that's it. Super's rooms reference the past adventure all across Zebes. (You can see this quite easily in the first few minutes after landing through the wrecked Tourian and the escape shaft.)

[quote="Dai Grepher"]I also said that the game is a prequel because the areas depicted [b][i]imply[/i][/b] an earlier time frame. The caverns are still cave like, instead of the more developed look they have in Metroid. The statues in the elevator rooms are basic and plain in Zero Mission but detailed and finely crafted in Metroid. Also, the room before Kraid is basic and plain, but in Metroid its ceiling shows what looks like a lizard's head with eyes and fangs. If Zero Mission were a remake, why wouldn't they remake that room to look similar? Why make it look nothing like the one in Metroid let alone like... nothing special?[/quote]
Have you ever considered the fact that they may have wanted it to look that way compared to what it looks like in Super, not Metroid? Prime even states in a Pirate Log that half of the surviving Pirates stay behind and rebuild Zebes. Why can't they have taken the caverns from ZM and turn them into the ones from Super? They have a lot of time to do this before Samus comes back. (Think of how long it is between Metroid/ZM and Super.)

Besides, you say that it [b][i]IMPLIES[/i][/b] that it's an earlier time frame. There is no direct proof saying that it is, it's just your opinion. Using the very same reasoning that you do, your [i][b]OPINION[/b][/i] isn't proof at all.

nn12000

2006-05-31 06:19:53 pm

Mister ...

Quote from SABERinBLUE:

Quote from nn12000:

WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER IF ZM IS A REMAKE OR NOT? ASK YOURSELF THAT WHEN YOU SEE THAT DAI, WHY DOES IT MATTER? It's just a game that was thrown into the series. Does it really matter if ZM is a remake? Honestly.

Why must you declare your lack of interest in things so loudly?

Sorry, I must've hit the caps lock button by mistake, honest

Quote:

Quote from Arkarian:

I've lost all respect for you.

I don't think I could've said this any better myself.

It's Saber, not Arkarian, and you really don't know the overarcing context of that statement there.

My bad. I fixed it. Guess I'm just used to quoting Ark so much. Sorry about that.

arkarian

2006-05-31 06:22:17 pm

red chamber dream

lol, what a quote to misquote.

RT-55J

2006-05-31 06:36:58 pm

Armor Guardian

Nice work on copying a Wikipedia article, Doctor ? !

Doctor ?

2006-05-31 07:43:42 pm

Quote from RT-55J:

Nice work on copying a Wikipedia article, Doctor ? !

I never claimed that I came up with all that on my own, so therefore any sort of negative insinuation you may be directing at me is moot.

arkarian

2006-05-31 09:24:48 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Doctor ?:

I never claimed that I came up with all that on my own, so therefore any sort of negative insinuation you may be directing at me is moot.

No, it's not moot. By not giving a source for your direct quote, you insinuated that your post was of your own derivation. You should really give a source when quoting something; otherwise, you'll be laughed at.

Kejardon

2006-06-01 12:49:19 am

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Dai Grepher:

No, there are many disagreements. In other words there are many posts saying that I am wrong, that I twist facts, or that I am insane. That is not a timeline argument, it is just spam.

Your whole argument (once you cut through 20 layers of fluff, which takes a while with how you avoid sharp questions all the time) eventually boils down to circular logic, saying we're wrong because you're right and thus we're wrong, interpreting quotes to mean only what you want and not possibly meaning anything else, and that everybody elses grasp on ZM's real timeline is wrong without even objectively disproving them.
Who's spamming?

LDreamNinja

2006-06-02 06:25:25 am

Quote from Dai Grepher:

That is communism.

This made me laugh.

Quote from Dai Grepher also:

"Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible." - Metroid

This proves nothing. If we are right, nothing in M1 is cannon anymore, save that which is reflected in MZM. Your argument only holds up from one angle.

[quote="Dai Grepher"Also, there was nothing added or subtracted from Metroid.[/quote]

This is not true. If it was though, you would be contradicting yourself.
A lack of changes signifies that you have *gasp* the same thing.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

The caverns are still cave like, instead of the more developed look they have in Metroid.

Metroid 1 Brinstar: Rocky caves with some weird flat slate/ zebes equivalent. An artificial tunnel connects eastern and western caves. Some ruins, most likely Chozo built. Obvious pirate additions in the form of doors. Weird metaly tech looking thingys in the first room. Blue

Zero Mission Brinstar: Rocky caves with some weird flat slate/ zebes equivalent. An artificial tunnel connects eastern and western caves. Some ruins, most likely Chozo built. Obvious pirate additions in the form of doors. Weird metaly tech looking thingys in the first room which now blink. Blue

M1 Norfair: Lava-y. Bubbly walls. Spooky statues near elevator. Red.

MZM Norfair:Lava-y. Bubbly walls. Different spooky statues near elevator. Red.

M1 Boss hideout 2: More bubbly walls. Tricksy traps. E-Tank fake out pit. Purple.

MZM Ridley: More bubbly walls. Tricksy traps. E-Tank fake out pit. Purple.

M1 Hideout 1: Weird ruins of possible Chozo origin (off-topic: this area has always fascinated me) Loooong shaft in east. Gray.

MZM Kraid: Weird ruins of possible Chozo origin. Looong shaft in east. Gray.

Tourian was made easier but this is no surprise as Nintendo has been babying people lately, and M1 Tourian was flickerbatting hard. the dead pirates are cool though.

For the most part, not only were the layouts, puzzles and specific platform arrangements preserved, the overall color of each zone was kept, despite modern advances in color pallets and texturing

[quote="Dai Grepher] The statues in the elevator rooms are basic and plain in Zero Mission but detailed and finely crafted in Metroid. [/quote] Artistic license is acceptable in a remake/ retelling.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Zero Mission is also described to be Samus' first mission in multiple sources, including the commercial.

Marketing must be forgiven for being concise. It does make a better ad. Many players don't care about the intricacies of the story anyway..

Quote from Dai Grepher arrogantly:

Because it's the truth.

Said the lord Dai.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

there is no fifth Zeebetite right in front of the pod.

more easyfication by Nintendo.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

A topic about a video game is all it takes to anger you?

A topic about a video game is all it takes to make you do the research
across the web and old magazines you claim to?

Quote:

Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember. Look at the King Kong movies.

Quoted for proving the remake point.

[quote="Dai Grepher"] That is communism.[/quote]

This made me laugh.

[quote="Dai Grepher also"]
"Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible." - Metroid [/quote]

This proves nothing. If we are right, nothing in M1 is cannon anymore, save that which is reflected in MZM. Your argument only holds up from one angle.

[quote="Dai Grepher"Also, there was nothing added or subtracted from Metroid.[/quote]

This is not true. If it was though, you would be contradicting yourself.  
 A lack of changes signifies that you have *gasp* the same thing.

[quote="Dai Grepher"] The caverns are still cave like, instead of the more developed look they have in Metroid.[/quote]

Metroid 1 Brinstar: Rocky caves with some weird flat slate/ zebes equivalent. An artificial tunnel connects eastern and western caves. Some ruins, most likely Chozo built. Obvious pirate additions in the form of doors. Weird metaly tech looking thingys in the first room. Blue

Zero Mission Brinstar: Rocky caves with some weird flat slate/ zebes equivalent. An artificial tunnel connects eastern and western caves. Some ruins, most likely Chozo built. Obvious pirate additions in the form of doors. Weird metaly tech looking thingys in the first room which now blink. Blue

M1 Norfair: Lava-y. Bubbly walls. Spooky statues near elevator. Red.

MZM Norfair:Lava-y. Bubbly walls.  Different spooky statues near elevator. Red.

M1 Boss hideout 2: More bubbly walls. Tricksy traps. E-Tank fake out pit. Purple.

MZM Ridley: More bubbly walls. Tricksy traps. E-Tank fake out pit. Purple.

M1 Hideout 1: Weird ruins of possible Chozo origin (off-topic: this area has always fascinated me) Loooong shaft in east. Gray.

MZM Kraid: Weird ruins of possible Chozo origin. Looong shaft in east. Gray.

Tourian was made easier but this is no surprise as Nintendo has been babying people lately, and M1 Tourian was flickerbatting hard. the dead pirates are cool though.

For the most part, not only were the layouts, puzzles and specific platform arrangements preserved, the overall color of each zone was kept, despite modern advances in color pallets and texturing

[quote="Dai Grepher] The statues in the elevator rooms are basic and plain in Zero Mission but detailed and finely crafted in Metroid. [/quote]  Artistic license is acceptable in a remake/ retelling.

[quote="Dai Grepher"] Zero Mission is also described to be Samus' first mission in multiple sources, including the commercial.[/quote]
  
   Marketing must be forgiven for being concise. It does make a better ad. Many players don't care about the intricacies of the story anyway..

[quote="Dai Grepher arrogantly"]Because it's the truth.[/quote]

Said the lord Dai.
 
[quote="Dai Grepher"] there is no fifth Zeebetite right in front of the pod. [/quote] more easyfication by Nintendo.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]A topic about a video game is all it takes to anger you? [/quote]

A topic about a video game is all it takes to make you do the research 
across the web and old magazines you claim to?

[quote]Oh come on, no one expects designers to make the maps match up down to the last pixel. What matters is that it is similar. Remakes do not have to be exactly the same, remember. Look at the King Kong movies.[/quote]  Quoted for proving the remake point.