MZM Timeline Status Discussion

Chanoire

2006-04-14 01:33:54 am

Quote from Dai:

Quote from Chanoire:

This makes no sense. What added item is used to skip Imago? The Ice Beam? The bombs?

Try the Super Missiles.

Try a 9% run.

Quote from Dai:

No, "next" means "after that", which is a true statement.

It may be time for another semantics poll. To avoid that hassle, I'll do something I dislike and cite dictionaries:

Quote from dictionary.com:

Nearest in space or position; adjacent: the next room.

Immediately following, as in time, order, or sequence: next week; the next item on the list.

In the time, order, or place nearest or immediately following: reading this book next; our next oldest child.

On the first subsequent occasion: when next I write.

Quote from Dai:

They were evil, they just did not haunt the caverns below at that time. This was still during the time when the Chozo controlled those areas. Plus the pirates were busy with research on the Metroids.

It is not an inconsistency if it can be explained logically.

Did you even read what I quoted you as saying? "In fact, Metroid Prime states that the pirates knew about the Metroids and studied them for many years beneath Zebes' surface even as Samus was being raised there by the Chozo." Now, I've played almost none of Prime, so I am trusting you to convey the information from it accurately.

Quote from Dai:

What makes you think they recognized Samus?

The Dachora bows to her. You may or may not consider that significant; I am answering your question on my own behalf only. Other players may simply consider it being a gesture of thanks for letting them out...in...whatever.

[quote="Dai"][quote="Chanoire"]This makes no sense. What added item is used to skip Imago? The Ice Beam? The bombs? [/quote]Try the Super Missiles. [/quote]
Try a 9% run.

[quote="Dai"]No, "next" means "after that", which is a true statement.[/quote]
It may be time for another semantics poll.  To avoid that hassle, I'll do something I dislike and cite dictionaries:
[quote="dictionary.com"]Nearest in space or position; adjacent: [i]the next room. [/i]

Immediately following, as in time, order, or sequence: [i]next week; the next item on the list. [/i]

In the time, order, or place nearest or immediately following: [i]reading this book next; our next oldest child. [/i]

On the first subsequent occasion: [i]when next I write.[/i] [/quote]

[quote="Dai"]They were evil, they just did not haunt the caverns below at that time. This was still during the time when the Chozo controlled those areas. Plus the pirates were busy with research on the Metroids.

It is not an inconsistency if it can be explained logically.[/quote]
Did you even read what I quoted you as saying? "In fact, Metroid Prime states that the pirates knew about the Metroids and studied them for many years [b]beneath Zebes' surface even as Samus was being raised there by the Chozo[/b]."  Now, I've played almost none of Prime, so I am trusting you to convey the information from it accurately.

[quote="Dai"]What makes you think they recognized Samus?[/quote]
The Dachora bows to her.  You may or may not consider that significant; I am answering your question on my own behalf only.  Other players may simply consider it being a gesture of thanks for letting them out...in...whatever.

Prime Hunter

2006-04-14 08:30:57 am

Quote from Dai Grepher:

So you had an idea of what it was before you even played it?

I knew it was familiar, and that ZM being a remake could be true. I didn't mention in there, but between that first video and playing it for the first time, I did watch more of the gameplay videos and read various things that made me consider the remake possibility.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

So you never got very far in Metroid, but still thought of the areas as updated versions of levels you did not reach? Well, to each his own I guess.

Sorry, guess I didn't explain that part well enough. (There I go again: It seems to be a common thing when I talk to people about some things)

I had played a fair amount of Metroid before, but I had only gotten anywhere through the use of passwords like "JUSTIN BAILEY", which let me explore a good amount of the game. I had never gotten far on my own by playing it from the very beginning without any help. (Plus, I had seen some of the videos from the site and the maps before first playing ZM.)

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Thanks. I believe you when you say that, and I think that if my presentation entertained you at all, then it was worth it. We just have a difference of opinions I suppose.

I have come to the same conclusion about our opinions. Like I said in my edit, I am not sure if that is the most accurate telling of what I felt when first playing, but it's basically how I remember things falling into place. It HAS been over two years now since I first played ZM, you know. Wink

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Chanoire:

What makes you think they recognized Samus?

The Dachora bows to her. You may or may not consider that significant; I am answering your question on my own behalf only. Other players may simply consider it being a gesture of thanks for letting them out...in...whatever.

Since I am here, I might as well try and help with this one. From what I remember, as Samus heads down the elevator after that part she mentions how they appeared to have recognize her as well. That's what makes me think they are the same ones.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]So you had an idea of what it was before you even played it?[/quote]
I knew it was familiar, and that ZM being a remake could be true. I didn't mention in there, but between that first video and playing it for the first time, I did watch more of the gameplay videos and read various things that made me consider the remake possibility.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]So you never got very far in Metroid, but still thought of the areas as updated versions of levels you did not reach? Well, to each his own I guess.[/quote]
Sorry, guess I didn't explain that part well enough. (There I go again: It seems to be a common thing when I talk to people about some things)

I had played a fair amount of Metroid before, but I had only gotten anywhere through the use of passwords like "JUSTIN BAILEY", which let me explore a good amount of the game. I had never gotten far on my own by playing it from the very beginning without any help. (Plus, I had seen some of the videos from the site and the maps before first playing ZM.)

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Thanks. I believe you when you say that, and I think that if my presentation entertained you at all, then it was worth it. We just have a difference of opinions I suppose. [/quote]
I have come to the same conclusion about our opinions. Like I said in my edit, I am not sure if that is the most accurate telling of what I felt when first playing, but it's basically how I remember things falling into place. It HAS been over two years now since I first played ZM, you know. :wink:

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Chanoire"]What makes you think they recognized Samus?[/quote]
The Dachora bows to her. You may or may not consider that significant; I am answering your question on my own behalf only. Other players may simply consider it being a gesture of thanks for letting them out...in...whatever.[/quote]

Since I am here, I might as well try and help with this one. From what I remember, as Samus heads down the elevator after that part she mentions how they appeared to have recognize her as well. That's what makes me think they are the same ones.

Chanoire

2006-04-14 02:51:08 pm

Ah, thanks. I knew there was something else, but I only looked at the bit when she opened the door when writing that. A few more seconds and I could have been more definitive. :P She says "Etecoons and Dachoras. I've met these intelligent beings before. They seemed to recognize me, as well. How unusual to meet again here."

Supuh

2006-04-14 11:40:16 pm

Quote from Dai:

The fact that she cannot use the single wall jump in Fusion proves that she loses abilities like those

HA! you are wrong, samus CAN single wall jump in fusion, not just underwater, but she can above water too, you just have to do it a little differently

spineshark

2006-04-15 12:10:45 am

in the name of justice!

I don't mean this is a serious argument, just a simple comment followed by an admittedly unfounded opinion.

If you want to, you can explain virtually any inconsistency between two supposedly connected stories if you try hard enough. I don't think that there's any other way to reconcile Samus' comment about the creatures from SM in Fusion with the existence of the Wall Jump, in the context of the story. Even if she supposedly "forgets" not only how to wall jump, but that she ever could...I don't care. I feel like its inclusion in ZM shows that, prequel or remake, the designers feel that it's a more important element to the gameplay than the storyline...

Dai Grepher

2006-04-15 04:59:06 pm

Quote from Supuh:

HA! you are wrong, samus CAN single wall jump in fusion, not just underwater, but she can above water too, you just have to do it a little differently

I meant that she could not wall jump using only a single wall, like in Zero Mission and Super Metroid. I probably should have said "one wall jump" though.

rekameohs

2006-04-15 05:43:39 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Supuh:

HA! you are wrong, samus CAN single wall jump in fusion, not just underwater, but she can above water too, you just have to do it a little differently

I meant that she could not wall jump using only a single wall, like in Zero Mission and Super Metroid. I probably should have said "one wall jump" though.

*cough*

Supuh

2006-04-17 04:18:10 pm

Quote from rekameohs:

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Supuh:

HA! you are wrong, samus CAN single wall jump in fusion, not just underwater, but she can above water too, you just have to do it a little differently

I meant that she could not wall jump using only a single wall, like in Zero Mission and Super Metroid. I probably should have said "one wall jump" though.

*cough*

PWN't!

Chanoire

2006-04-17 05:36:49 pm

That was already brought up here, although Dai declined to notice.

Quote from Two pages ago, I:

For that matter, Ekarderif and Sess both showed ways to manage [the single wall jump] by utilizing other aspects of the game's physics.

Lt Earthworm

2006-04-30 02:56:44 am

I was just reading the post Dai made on the G4 forums to get his initial arguments, I noticed this about the box for ZM

Quote:

The first Metroid game just scratched the surface of the cataclysmic events on planet Zebes, and at long last the rest of the tale has come to light.

This implies that the game that is inside this box is fleshing the story of what happened in the first Metroid game. It also says it is the first of her legendary adventures. Not all of Samus' adventures have to be legendary.

And lasty, I noticed this on the Metroid map.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Super Metroid, don't you go down the old escape shaft to the old Tourian at the beginning to get the morph ball? Tracing the route in SM by memory, and looking at the map of Metroid, it doesn't quite fit. There should be an elevator at the end of the hall where Mother Brain was that leads down to the starting point of Metroid, but there isn't.

EDIT: I also found this

Quote:

Dai Grepher: The commercial matches the websites and the box. All state that it is the first adventure/mission of Samus' life.

Where anywhere does anything say this was Samus' first mission ever in her life? The statement on the box is ambiguous. It probably means her first mission for the federation.

EDIT II: One last thing.
http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/index.html
That's the ZM official site. If you go to "History" You will see that ZM is not placed before Metroid. It actually comes off of Metroid, implying that it is a remake. However, I can't read japanese, so I can't say exactly what is going on.

I was just reading the post Dai made on the G4 forums to get his initial arguments, I noticed this about the box for ZM
[quote]
The first Metroid game just scratched the surface of the cataclysmic events on planet Zebes, and at long last the rest of the tale has come to light.
[/quote]
This implies that the game that is inside this box is fleshing the story of what happened in the first Metroid game. It also says it is the first of her [i]legendary[/i] adventures. Not all of Samus' adventures have to be legendary.

And lasty, I noticed this on the Metroid map.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Super Metroid, don't you go down the old escape shaft to the old Tourian at the beginning to get the morph ball? Tracing the route in SM by memory, and looking at the map of Metroid, it doesn't quite fit. There should be an elevator at the end of the hall where Mother Brain was that leads down to the starting point of Metroid, but there isn't.

EDIT: I also found this
[quote]
Dai Grepher: The commercial matches the websites and the box. All state that it is the first adventure/mission of Samus' life.
[/quote]
Where anywhere does anything say this was Samus' first mission ever in her life? The statement on the box is ambiguous. It probably means her first mission for the federation.

EDIT II: One last thing.
http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/index.html
That's the ZM official site. If you go to "History" You will see that ZM is not placed before Metroid. It actually comes off of Metroid, implying that it is a remake. However, I can't read japanese, so I can't say exactly what is going on.

Kejardon

2006-04-30 03:19:44 am

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Just a random note... Dai Grepher has failed to check his PMs for the last week. Even though google confirms he's been online.
I think he actually gave up for once. :P

Yoshi348

2006-04-30 12:29:16 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

So... how much experience do we get?

spineshark

2006-04-30 12:33:58 pm

in the name of justice!

silly yoshi! you don't get any experience when they escape!

Random Zelda Person

2006-04-30 01:04:57 pm

You do in FFVIII...

arkarian

2006-04-30 01:05:04 pm

red chamber dream

Arkarian uses Mean Look!

Prime Hunter

2006-04-30 01:26:14 pm

I think you're a tad late there, Ark. Wink

Not that it matters anymore, but I was going through my old Nintendo Powers the other day (Packing them up so that I could put some of my consoles/games in their place) and I came across a few articles about Zero Mission. Besides the fact that the original article is almost word for word what the ZM description is on the Nintendo site, there was something else that may have helped back when we were debating:

Quote from NP Volume 177 (Mar 04) Page 100:

Though it's based on the same tale as the original NES Metroid, don't mistake Zero Mission for a straight port of the beloved classic. The graphics and music have received a substantial upgrade, and cut scenes have been added to flesh out the story. Beyond the cosmetic enhancements, you can expect a significantly longer adventure with new monsters, new power-ups and a few big surprises.

Like I said, it doesn't really matter at this point, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention here.

I think you're a tad late there, Ark.  :wink:

Not that it matters anymore, but I was going through my old Nintendo Powers the other day (Packing them up so that I could put some of my consoles/games in their place) and I came across a few articles about Zero Mission. Besides the fact that the original article is almost word for word what the ZM description is on the Nintendo site, there was something else that may have helped back when we were debating:

[quote="NP Volume 177 (Mar 04) Page 100"]Though it's based on the same tale as the original NES Metroid, don't mistake Zero Mission for a straight port of the beloved classic. The graphics and music have received a substantial upgrade, and cut scenes have been added to flesh out the story. Beyond the cosmetic enhancements, you can expect a significantly longer adventure with new monsters, new power-ups and a few big surprises.[/quote]
Like I said, it doesn't really matter at this point, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention here.

SABERinBLUE

2006-04-30 03:48:57 pm

Cook of the Sea

Quote from Arkarian:

Arkarian uses Mean Look!

Ooh ooh now use Toxic.

Yoshi348

2006-04-30 05:31:33 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

What's the point, the experience is already going to be split like 30+ ways. We'd be lucky to get a pixel each on our bars.

ajbolt89

2006-04-30 07:07:41 pm

lol no way

So earlier we asked if he could change the title of the topic because we don't all agree that it's proof, but now he's not here anymore... can the title be changed to "MZM Timeline Status Discussion"? Or something similar? The word proof just really bugs me.

MooMan1

2006-04-30 07:34:35 pm

I had an awesome argument, but apparantly Dai quit, so I will say this instead: the probable reason for all the changes is because Metroid was an 8-bit game, and would have made for a hella boring and short remake. Hence the extra bosses and changed level design.

Oh, and I think the debate was quite settled.

MetalRidley

2006-05-03 12:10:06 am

I guess I'll take up Dai's cross, then, and defend the ZM -> prequel side. My point can be easily summed up in one word: Saving.

Seriously, this is an inaccuracy that even all you blind, doubting Thomases can't ignore: Metroid did not have any save points, while ZM has more than two per zone! Dubya-Tee-Eff? A remake ought to replicate the original experience to the closest extent possible. Therefore, ZM is no remake.

I have to stop by the Super Mario Advance 3 boards now, as they seem to be laboring under the delusion that the game they are playing is a SNES remake. I mean, more areas = prequel, not remake, duh.

PS, Prime Hunter, Nintendo Power is evil NOA drivel, made by people who have never heard of the games they promote. So you have no evidence and I win by default.
[/daistyle]

Hejira

2006-05-03 12:24:44 am

You're right, it's not a remake. It's a replacement.

The original Metroid has been rendered non-canon, and Zero Mission has taken its place. I'm-a go look for sources to back up what I just said, as I swore I could have read it somewhere else.

arkarian

2006-05-03 09:55:36 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from ajbolt89:

So earlier we asked if he could change the title of the topic because we don't all agree that it's proof, but now he's not here anymore... can the title be changed to "MZM Timeline Status Discussion"? Or something similar? The word proof just really bugs me.

Sure, why not?

Laney

(user is banned)

2006-05-04 06:06:14 am

Quote from MonsterERB:

Do something more productive with your time. Play MP:Hunters. Watch a "Seinfeld" rerun. Organize your sock drawer. Any time you spend on posting in this topic, is wasted time. (I myself am wasting about 5 minutes of my life here, to try to convince the rest of you to stop wasting your own time. How ironic.)

Is this your life?

Yoshi348

2006-05-04 01:46:22 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

He can't go around boinking everyone; he's married.