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Tahngarthor
2006-04-11 11:33:46 pm
Bangaa Bishop
I like how you keep trying to "declare victory." You haven't won anything. You haven't "won" your debate until you've convinced the people here that you are right and th ey are wrong. And you havend succeeded at that, not by a longshot.  If having the debate "draw to a close" will get you to stop these tiresome post dissections and move on to contributing something to this site, then I'm all for going there. But you haven't "won" like you seem to be implying.

Quote:
OK, go back and read what I posted from the Metroid manual. It states that there is a surprise ending if you beat the game quickly enough. That proves that the surprise was being built up in the references to Samus being a male cybor g. That is a fact, and my opinion is based on that fact.
 

Glad you admitted it was an opinion, but the bolded item you base it on is not a fact, still. I dont ever recall it being said exactly "samus is a male cybor g."

To indulge in what you do:

Quote:
Super Metroid's intro yields no results supporting the remake theory.
It yields no results supporting the prequel theory either.

Quote:
Kejardon has been proven wrong by the facts from Nintendo stating that Zero Mission was her first adventure as a bounty hunter


No, he hasn't, it's only in your view. You are assuming things.

Quote:
Yes, I would say this is just about over.


More flawed opinions based on flawed assumptions.

And on a final note, there are a number of people who have read this thread and simply not commented because if they were to comment on your flawed logic, you would just use more of your flawed logic to refute them, in an endless cycle. They are not agreeing with you, they merely do not want to subject themselves to the torture of arguing against someone convinced his flawed logic is not flawed.
spineshark
2006-04-12 12:12:52 am
in the name of justice!
Quote:
So they reused some of the music from Metroid and Super Metroid. This was done to create a nostolgic feel. Even the music they resued was composed differently. I do not think that implies anything.

I agree, they wanted to "create a nostalgic feel."  You can see this in all sorts of games...the Zelda series, the Prime games feature redone songs from Metroid 3, even Final Fantasy reuses the "Prelude," that song that plays over the intro screens in 1 and 4 and during 6's finale that I don't know what to call it, and especially "Fanfare."  Obviously in the case of Super Castlevania IV, just being a remake doesn't mean that all the music is the same (nor, in fact, did the designers limit themselves to graphically updating the levels, or even keeping the same number (okay, so I may be wrong there, as I just fail to hard at CV1 to get anywhere)).  But I digress.  I just don't see any reason that they'd feel the need to keep every tune (especially Ridley...blech) from the original game, if they weren't trying to make it feel basically the "same."  Of course, I've argued against the consistency in graphics being "necessary" (and it's impossible anyways, as the GBA features a different screen resolution than an SNES outputs), but...

Other thing is (and this is going to read downright absurdly), I don't buy your argument about this whole "wall-jump" thing.  It's true that pointing your arm diagonally takes a lot less...physics-defying than jumping as far as you want to up a wall (unless you don't much feel like it that day, and would prefer to just stay on the ground)...

If you reduce it to the simplest level, there's actually no difference between shooting the arm cannon and wall-jumping for the player.  You press two buttons at the appropriate time, and Samus does what you input for her to do.  Unless you propose that the L and R buttons are only there so people at Bisqwit's can run faster, you need two buttons to use the diagonal aiming for anything useful.  Does anywhere say that aiming up and down is not a "technique" anyway?

It's also shown that she can do wall jump with no suit power-ups, as you can do it before picking up the Maru Mari, and even more, at the stealth sequence, she can still do it without even the power suit!  You're telling me that she just gained too much weight before Metroid II?

In the meantime, I will take this as "a mistake that the game designers are incapable of making."  Or not.  Either they make mistakes, they didn't care, or they intentionally messed it up.  In any case, it's not helpful to you.

I will give you this...you would make a successful lawyer.
Kejardon
2006-04-12 12:27:01 am
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
I'm done copying the logic Dai Grepher's been using. Posts are back to my logic.
It seems like he's completely oblivious that I've been doing that, though.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Nintendo often means 'port' when they say new adventure. They are reluctant to call SM a remake because people might think 'Enhanced port' and decide it's not worth buying an NES game on the SNES.

which has nothing to do with this thread (and I doubt it's true, either - Nintendo probably has more than twice as many 'new adventures' than ports, making that statement kind of impossible). My statement still stands: Nintendo is reluctant to call ZM a remake because they're worried people might interpret that as a port.

SM is not a remake because it addresses the NES Metroid in its intro and places itself in the future of the NES Metroid. That's in a different thread.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
You did not refute the facts. I claim total victory over your argument. Thank you for posting though.

There were no facts to refute. Ignoring that for the moment though, I hope you realize that the two of us had temporarily swapped places in the argument. But just in case, I'll spell it out.
You have avoided the points left and right, and said things but in no way confronted my points. Which is why I said earlier that I may as well claim victory. Eventually I decided to start arguing the way you did (minus fluff, I've never been good at fluff) to show how ridiculous your arguing is.

And to get back on topic, the commercial *is* referring to Metroid I's storyline. Nintendo is simply being overdramatic. I've already given evidence of Nintendo being dramatic with ZM specific material.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
It does expand the NES Metroid as well. You should read my posts.

I was arguing this point the same way you have similar points: Complete ignorance of the other viewpoint and insistance that what I argued was correct and the only possible truth.

Back to the point, the only quote I can find relevant to this from you is:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Zero Mission is a backstory expansion as Sakamoto stated. Zero Mission expands on Metroid’s backstory and sets the stage for it.

This still applies to the entire series, not just Metroid. There's no reason Nintendo would explicitly mention the NES Metroid if Zero Mission was a prequel happening long before the entire series.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
For the sake of argument, I will agree and continue that this means not in the case of storyline, which is what matters. Zero Mission is not a remake in every case (as you just admitted) and one of those cases according to Sakamoto is storyline.

um. k. I have no problem with that.
After all, Zero Mission only puts in extra details into Metroid's story, as well as adding extra things to the end. It doesn't change or remove any of the original story (except calling Samus 'he' and a few other rumors). And it certainly doesn't change the meaning of Super Metroid's intro.
Wait, you aren't saying that Zero Mission isn't a prequel, are you?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Kejardon has been proven wrong by the facts from Nintendo stating that Zero Mission was her first adventure as a bounty hunter

That evidence doesn't prove me wrong. Your interpretation of the evidence says I'm wrong. My interpretation says I'm right.
The argument then goes to whose interpretation is correct. I have a precedent with Nintendo saying 'First Mission' in clear reference to Metroid I. You even admit that's what they meant (though you insist it was an accident). All you have are more quotes that say similar things, and we argue more about interpretation. You give no evidence that your interpretation of the quotes is accurate, though.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
The remake theory logic has been applied to Super Metroid thus showing that it is not sound.

Super Metroid isn't a remake of the NES Metroid, it's a sequel. The introduction of Super Metroid clearly demonstrates that, and establishes that Metroid I is also Samus's first battle against Metroids.
The only way Zero Mission's storyline doesn't overlap with Metroid's is if Zero Mission changes the meaning of Super Metroid's introduction, which *you* have insisted, not other people. *I* insist that Zero Mission does *not* change any storyline, but adds detail instead, within the story of Metroid I.
Although, then there's Samus being able to super jump and wall jump in Zero Mission, which we both agree is before Super Metroid where Samus officially learns the moves, according to Metroid Fusion. This just demonstrates that the programmers are more concerned about gameplay than storyline, and doesn't really help either side.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Does anyone have anything they would like to ask?

Why are you arguing this? I still don't believe you believe your own argument.
Of course, I'm not expecting a satisfactory answer, but you asked for anything I'd like to ask, and that question is still bugging me. :P
Prime Hunter
2006-04-12 12:38:55 am
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
According to both of the IN-GAME Intros:
- ZM: "I shall finally tell the tale of my FIRST battle here..."
- Super: "I FIRST battled the Metroids on planet Zebes..."

Super clearly references Metroid, which was at the time the obvious choice for her first time on Zebes.

That is not true. What, just because the word "first" is used in both games that means one references the other? Her first battle there and her first battling the Metroids there have nothing to do with each other.

The MAIN reason she was even sent on this mission was to stop the Metroids from being used as biological weapons.  So, they DO have something to do with one another after all, don't they?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
"I first battled the Metroids on Zebes". True for Metroid then and true for Zero Mission now.

"It was there that I foiled the plans of the Space Pirate leader Mother Brain..." Also true for Metroid then and true for Metroid now.

I assume you mean ZM where it's Bolded.

Doesn't the fact that it is true for BOTH Metroid and ZM mean ANYTHING? Right here you mention how it could make sense for EITHER game. Super was meant to fit into Metroid, which it does. According to what you said, it can ALSO fit into ZM. Isn't that reason enough to at least consider the fact that ZM could've replaced Metroid in the overall timeline?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
Zero Mission comes along ten years after Super Metroid and says that we will finally hear the true story behind her FIRST time to Zebes, which according to Super is the FIRST time she encounters the Metroids.

Like I said, that is not true. It never states that her first mission on Zebes is the first battle with the Metroids. Zero Mission could have had no Metroids at all and the statments would have been true. This is because the statements say, "I first battle the Metroids on Zebes", which does not refer to any first mission on Zebes and "It was there that..." which also does not refer to a first mission on Zebes.

You totally miss the point though: It doesn't matter if ZM COULD have had no Metroids in them. The fact that it does makes that statement not matter. Zero Mission is her first mission. She fought Metroids on this mission. So, that makes it fit into the Super Metroid intro, which originally had Metroid fit in the same spot.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
Based on these facts, realize this:

According to Super's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = Metroid *
* 1st Battle With Metroids = Metroid *

According to ZM's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = ZM *

Based on Super's Intro, saying that First Battle With Metroids = First Visit to Zebes:
* First Battle with Metroids MUST = ZM *

So...
* Zero Mission MUST = Remake of Metroid *
 
Not even Stretch Armstrong could reach that far. First prove that the first "visit" or mission to Zebes was Metroid. Next, prove that Samus first battle with the Metroids was in Metroid. Do that, and the rest will fall into place. If that happens then I will agree with you. Like I said though, the statements do not even suggest what you are saying.

It's not like you can prove me wrong, either. At the time of Metroid's creation in 1986, it WAS the first mission and encounter with the Metroids, so it WAS the game Super referred to in its intro.

Think about it this way: (Remember that FIRST VISIT = First time she is sent there on mission, not when being raised by the Chozo.)

According to Super's Intro: 
* 1st Battle With Metroids = Metroid *
(You pretty much admit that one yourself: Look below)

According to ZM's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = ZM *
(Crystal Clear fact stated in the intro)

* Reason Samus is on ZM: Sent to stop the Metroid Threat *
(Screens before ZM Title say that)

Based on Everything Above:
* Samus's First Mission is on Zebes --->
* Samus First Encounters Metroids on Zebes --->

Based on Playing ZM itself:
* During First Mission, Samus Encounters Metroids --->

Take Everything into Consideration, and...
* Zero Mission MUST = Remake of Metroid *

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
All of this, of course, is not from the websites, manuals, or even interviews: This is IN-GAME-EVIDENCE, followed by common sense. (Refering to the fact that Super references METROID in the intro and not some other story we've never heard about.) This is why Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid and not a prequel.

I will stick to facts thank you.

And what do you call everything that we've given you, fiction? We have given you plenty of facts that make sense to us.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
As I explained, Super refers to Metroid as being her first encounter with Metroids.

Wrong.

Uh.. yes it does. You said so yourself:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
When Super Metroid was first made, it was likely referring to Metroid because that was the only game. However, the quote never specifies Metroid. It merely leaves it to the player to fill in the blanks.

Yeah, and all of us here can easily fill in that blank and get Metroid. No question about that. Besides, it doesn't even refer to ROS by name when it is mentioned either, but everybody knows what it refers to. How can we not apply the same logic to Metroid?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
...Yet, in ZM she faces off against them. So, how is there a previous mission on Zebes where she faces Metroids, but according to the IN-GAME intro for Super, (Which references Metroid) Metroid is her first enounter with them? This is a HUGE contradiction that CANNOT be explained by your Prequel theory.

Metroid is not the first battle with the Metroids. WOW! I explained it.

When you yourself admit that Super most likely referred to Metroid when speaking of her first Metroid encounter, how can you turn around and say that it's not? It was called "Metroid" for good reason.

If you need any more reason to believe what I just said, look for my redesigned chart above.
Periodico
2006-04-12 10:01:59 am
Only read the first page... didn't feel like wading through any potential flaming.

My opinion:  I believe that I don't really care whether it is remake or prequel (except when I decide to play all Metroid Games in a row.  I skip Metroid I and II anyway).  I like the game as it is, and I hate the Original Metroid (go ahead and crucify me).

However, I DO enjoy knowing FOR SURE what the timeline/story for ANY series is.  But if it's just some guy on cyberspace, while I value the interpretation and analysis, IT'S NOT OFFICIAL.  Now if you were to get a job at Nintendo's "Fill the plot-holes in all our epic games!" department and your interpretation became official then great!  Otherwise, I'm sorry to say, most of us don't really care.

Better luck next time.
Purple Lizard
2006-04-12 11:03:19 am
Quote from dai grepher:
Actually, the GBA is just as powerful as the SNES, so they could have made the graphics look better or equal to Super Metroid. They did not because of the lazy comic book art style.


Eh?  No it's not.
Tahngarthor
2006-04-12 11:37:17 am
Bangaa Bishop
The GBA is superior to an SNES in every way except its screen resolution and possibly sound system. The GBA has a 32-bit CPU as well.
Purple Lizard
2006-04-12 12:17:33 pm
Hmm, is it really?  I could have sworn that I read somewhere that the GBA was inferior to an SNES in a number of aspects.  Though now that I'm actually looking at the specs for both, I can see otherwise.  My mistake.

I guess what had convinced me otherwise was purely empirical, as the only GBA games I've really played extensively beyond Zero Mission is FF4A and Tales of Phantasia, which I felt ran abyssmally, and also a little of Super Mario Kart Advance.  FF4a was full of lagginess and timing issues during battles, and ToP was just sluggish compared to it's SFAM counterpart (albeit enhanced sprites looked nice).  SMKA just looked and played like crap, in my opinion.  I suppose, however, all that could simply be attributed to lack of hardware optimization.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-12 01:08:19 pm
Quote from Spine Shark:
I agree, they wanted to "create a nostalgic feel." You can see this in all sorts of games...

Obviously in the case of Super Castlevania IV, just being a remake doesn't mean that all the music is the same (nor, in fact, did the designers limit themselves to graphically updating the levels, or even keeping the same number (okay, so I may be wrong there, as I just fail to hard at CV1 to get anywhere)).


I am not 100% sure that Super Castlevania is a remake, as I have not looked into that issue. It is probably best to leave remakes from other series out of this discussion.

Quote from Spine Shark:
I just don't see any reason that they'd feel the need to keep every tune (especially Ridley...blech) from the original game, if they weren't trying to make it feel basically the "same."


They reused Kraid and Ridley (the areas) but made them different. It is only logical that they reuse the music from those areas but make them different. I think they just reused it because Metroid is the only game that those areas appeared in along with that music.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Of course, I've argued against the consistency in graphics being "necessary" (and it's impossible anyways, as the GBA features a different screen resolution than an SNES outputs), but...

Other thing is (and this is going to read downright absurdly), I don't buy your argument about this whole "wall-jump" thing. It's true that pointing your arm diagonally takes a lot less...physics-defying than jumping as far as you want to up a wall (unless you don't much feel like it that day, and would prefer to just stay on the ground)...

If you reduce it to the simplest level, there's actually no difference between shooting the arm cannon and wall-jumping for the player.


I disagree. The wall jump requires Samus to move back toward the wall she just pushed away from. That defies physics, and in Fusion this ability is lost. This means that it is an actual suit ability that makes her move through the air using forces in the suit and not by physical contact with another surface. Since this ability is lost or downgraded in Fusion, I would call this a suit ability.

Quote from Spine Shark:
You press two buttons at the appropriate time, and Samus does what you input for her to do. Unless you propose that the L and R buttons are only there so people at Bisqwit's can run faster, you need two buttons to use the diagonal aiming for anything useful. Does anywhere say that aiming up and down is not a "technique" anyway?


I think we all know and agree that aim is not a suit ability. Moving on.

Quote from Spine Shark:
It's also shown that she can do wall jump with no suit power-ups, as you can do it before picking up the Maru Mari, and even more, at the stealth sequence, she can still do it without even the power suit! You're telling me that she just gained too much weight before Metroid II?


The wall jump is an ability that defies physics, therefore her ability to do it in the stealth sequence can be attributed to her body suit, which does hold biological and technological components.

Quote from Kejardon:
which has nothing to do with this thread (and I doubt it's true, either - Nintendo probably has more than twice as many 'new adventures' than ports, making that statement kind of impossible). My statement still stands: Nintendo is reluctant to call ZM a remake because they're worried people might interpret that as a port.


Which has nothing to do with this thread (and I doubt it's true, either - Nintendo probably has more than twice as many 'ports' than new adventures, making that statement kind of impossible). My statement still stands: Nintendo is reluctant to call SM a remake because they're worried people might interpret that as a port.

Quote from Kejardon:
SM is not a remake because it addresses the NES Metroid in its intro and places itself in the future of the NES Metroid. That's in a different thread.


No, it addresses Zero Mission in its intro and places itself in the future of Zero Mission. Can you prove this wrong?

Quote from Kejardon:
There were no facts to refute. Ignoring that for the moment though, I hope you realize that the two of us had temporarily swapped places in the argument. But just in case, I'll spell it out.
You have avoided the points left and right, and said things but in no way confronted my points. Which is why I said earlier that I may as well claim victory. Eventually I decided to start arguing the way you did (minus fluff, I've never been good at fluff) to show how ridiculous your arguing is.


I still see nothing to refute the facts, and now Kejardon is ignoring the facts! I am still the victor.
Also, I do realize that I mimicked your argument, which is what I was trying to get you to realize. Perhaps now you can see how flawed your argument is. You cannot just claim that a game is a remake then say "inconsistencies do not matter with remakes, similarities do matter because it shows where the games are the same, and since you cannot convince me otherwise that it means I am right".

Quote from Kejardon:
And to get back on topic, the commercial *is* referring to Metroid I's storyline. Nintendo is simply being overdramatic. I've already given evidence of Nintendo being dramatic with ZM specific material.


Metroid's storyline shows that its mission is not the first as an intergalactic bounty hunter though. Therefore the commercial cannot be referring to Metroid. Since this information came from Nintendo, it shows that it is official and accurate.

You are simply disregarding the facts that prove you wrong.

Quote from Kejardon:
This still applies to the entire series, not just Metroid. There's no reason Nintendo would explicitly mention the NES Metroid if Zero Mission was a prequel happening long before the entire series.


Again, you assume what Nintendo would and would not do to fit your own theory. Post evidence please.
I never said it did not apply to the entire series as well. It does apply to Metroid, which fits the box description. Case closed.

Quote from Kejardon:
um. k. I have no problem with that.
After all, Zero Mission only puts in extra details into Metroid's story, as well as adding extra things to the end. It doesn't change or remove any of the original story (except calling Samus 'he' and a few other rumors). And it certainly doesn't change the meaning of Super Metroid's intro.
Wait, you aren't saying that Zero Mission isn't a prequel, are you?


Have you forgotten about Fake Kraid, the fifth Zeebetite, the many areas of Zebes, and the backstory of Samus investigating mere rumors? Those are all changes! Remakes! The storyline was not remade!

Quote from Kejardon:
That evidence doesn't prove me wrong. Your interpretation of the evidence says I'm wrong. My interpretation says I'm right.


Your interpretation is wrong. I have no interpretation of these facts. I merely quote them.

"Her first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter."

"Considered the greatest of all the space hunters, Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible."

Quote from Kejardon:
The argument then goes to whose interpretation is correct. I have a precedent with Nintendo saying 'First Mission' in clear reference to Metroid I. You even admit that's what they meant (though you insist it was an accident).


And have undeniable proof that it was a mistake to call it that, which you also ignore.

Quote from Kejardon:
All you have are more quotes that say similar things, and we argue more about interpretation. You give no evidence that your interpretation of the quotes is accurate, though.


"...first of Samus's legendary adventures..."

and

The commercial.

That is evidence that you cannot refute but do ignore quite well.

Quote from Kejardon:
Super Metroid isn't a remake of the NES Metroid, it's a sequel. The introduction of Super Metroid clearly demonstrates that, and establishes that Metroid I is also Samus's first battle against Metroids.


Remakes change storylines though, remember? You cannot prove that it is a sequel using storyline because the storyline was changed. Also, the intro never depicts Metroid or mentions it. You have no facts, only theories.

Quote from Kejardon:
The only way Zero Mission's storyline doesn't overlap with Metroid's is if Zero Mission changes the meaning of Super Metroid's introduction, which *you* have insisted, not other people. *I* insist that Zero Mission does *not* change any storyline, but adds detail instead, within the story of Metroid I.


It did not change Metroid. It did not change anything. It simply became the mission that Super Metroid (Metroid) was referring to. Thus it adds more to the backstory!

Quote from Kejardon:
Although, then there's Samus being able to super jump and wall jump in Zero Mission, which we both agree is before Super Metroid where Samus officially learns the moves, according to Metroid Fusion.


Wrong. The quote says, "tap into abilities [she] did not know [she] had", not that she learned them. Please post evidence, like I am doing.

Quote from Kejardon:
Why are you arguing this? I still don't believe you believe your own argument.


Because it is the correct timeline. Next.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
The MAIN reason she was even sent on this mission was to stop the Metroids from being used as biological weapons. So, they DO have something to do with one another after all, don't they?


No, because her first battle there was not between the Metroids! Her first battle was with the Space Pirates. It just so happens that she later fought the Metroids after defeating the Space Pirates, which was her first battle with the Metroids. This battle took place ON ZEBES, which makes this consistent with Super Metroid's statement.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I assume you mean ZM where it's Bolded.


No, because Super Metroid's intro does not refer to Zero Mission when it mentions Mother Brain's defeat. Technically it does not refer to Zero Mission at all. It refers to her first battle with the Metroids being on Zebes. Since Zero Mission takes place before Metroid and features her battling the Metroids, Zero Mission is consistent with Super Metroid's statement because that battle took place on Zebes. I do not know how much clearer I can be.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Doesn't the fact that it is true for BOTH Metroid and ZM mean ANYTHING?


No, because it never referred to Metroid or any other mission. The statement only proves that Samus' first battle with the Metroids was on planet Zebes. If Nintendo releases a prequel to Zero Mission, say a game that shows Samus' childhood, and features her battling Metroids on Zebes, then that game will be consistent with Super Metroid. (It would contradict Zero Mission of course since that would make that prequel her first battle.) However, if that game featured Samus battling Metroids on K2-L, then that would be inconsistent with Super Metroid's statement.

This is because the statement does not refer to any mission. It refers to a fact, and that fact is that Samus fight battled the Metroids on Zebes.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Right here you mention how it could make sense for EITHER game. Super was meant to fit into Metroid, which it does. According to what you said, it can ALSO fit into ZM. Isn't that reason enough to at least consider the fact that ZM could've replaced Metroid in the overall timeline?


I said nothing of the sort. I said that the player could apply the statement to Metroid back then and it would make sense. I then said that they player could apply the statement to Zero Mission today and it would make sense.

To expound upon that, if a player applied that statement to Metroid today then it would NOT make sense, and this is because Zero Mission is a prequel to Metroid and is the true first battle with the Metroids. It would be equally as wrong to apply the statement to Metroid II as it would to apply it to Metroid today.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
You totally miss the point though: It doesn't matter if ZM COULD have had no Metroids in them. The fact that it does makes that statement not matter. Zero Mission is her first mission. She fought Metroids on this mission. So, that makes it fit into the Super Metroid intro, which originally had Metroid fit in the same spot.


WRONG! The Super Metroid intro does not mention a first mission or a mission of any kind! It only states that Zebes is where Samus first battled the Metroids! Zero Mission fits into the statement, true. However, Metroid has been removed from that placement because of Zero Mission.

Before Zero Mission, we all just assumed that Metroid was the battle that Super Metroid was talking about. However, this was just an assumption, not a fact, because Super Metroid does not indicate Metroid or reference it. We just assumed it was Metroid because we knew of no other mission that involved a battle with the Metroids that took place before Metroid on Zebes. Now we do know of one. Zero Mission. That makes Zero Mission the battle that is being referenced in Super Metroid because it takes place before Metroid.

This leads us to the next statement, which you think indicates Metroid in the last statement. "It was there that..." This does reference the Metroid mission, but this does not imply that the Metroid mission was the first battle with the Metroids or that such battles took place at the same time. It merely states that it was on Zebes that this other battle took place.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
It's not like you can prove me wrong, either. At the time of Metroid's creation in 1986, it WAS the first mission and encounter with the Metroids, so it WAS the game Super referred to in its intro.


No it was not! Metroid's manual, game, and other text media NEVER call Metroid the first mission, the first mission on Zebes, or the first battle with the Metroids. There is no connection!
The only connection that people made was based on the assumption that Metroid was the only mission to fit Super Metroid. Zero Mission came along and disproved that WITHOUT changing any of the facts.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
According to Super's Intro:
* 1st Battle With Metroids = Metroid *
(You pretty much admit that one yourself: Look below)


Wrong.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
According to ZM's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = ZM *
(Crystal Clear fact stated in the intro)

* Reason Samus is on ZM: Sent to stop the Metroid Threat *
(Screens before ZM Title say that)

Based on Everything Above:
* Samus's First Mission is on Zebes --->
* Samus First Encounters Metroids on Zebes --->

Based on Playing ZM itself:
* During First Mission, Samus Encounters Metroids --->

Take Everything into Consideration, and...
* Zero Mission MUST = Remake of Metroid *


I see your logic, but you are lacking something. There is nothing to hook that statement onto Metroid.

I have already covered this in my presentation and I even said that this was the VERY FIRST fact that I looked up. I made sure this was consistent before posting the presentation. This does not support the remake side at all. So now I want you to consider this.

<----(*reference to first battle with Metroids on Zebes*)
---------ZM---NM---M---MP---MP2---M2--SM(*)--------MF

Lets see what is ruled out from that reference. MF because it takes place after SM. M2, since that Metroid battle was on SR388. MP2 since that battle was on Ather. MP1 since that battle was on Tallon IV.

What game is this reference possibly targeting? Metroid, since it involved a battle with the Metroids on Zebes! The numerous missions? Possibly. If only we knew where those missions took place and if Samus battled the Metroids. Wait, what about Zero Mission, the FIRST of those numerous missions? It was on Zebes, and it did feature a battle with the Metroids!

So now we have Zero Mission and Metroid as the only candidates. Which one was the FIRST battle with the Metroids? Which one takes place first? Zero Mission, since it is the first mission and Metroid is not.

Now lets check for inconsistencies with Metroid being the target.
Is Metroid the first mission or is it before Zero Mission? No.
Is Metroid the first battle with the Metroids according to any of the game/printed media facts? No.

Therefore, Zero Mission is the first battle with the Metroids, Metroid is the second, MP is the third, MP2 is the fourth, M2 is the fifth, SM is the sixth, and MF is the seventh (according to the current timeline).

That is consistent with Super Metroid's statement. "I first battled the Metroids on planet Zebes."

Quote from Prime Hunter:
And what do you call everything that we've given you, fiction? We have given you plenty of facts that make sense to us.


It does not matter if they make sense to you. What matters is if they are truly factual. Your theory that both games are the same mission because of Super Metroid's reference is not factual but fictional. I am not trying to put you down. It is just a true statement.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Uh.. yes it does. You said so yourself:

Dai Grepher wrote:
When Super Metroid was first made, it was likely referring to Metroid because that was the only game. However, the quote never specifies Metroid. It merely leaves it to the player to fill in the blanks.


Uh... no I did not.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Yeah, and all of us here can easily fill in that blank and get Metroid. No question about that.


Only because your theory is that Zero Mission is a remake. You are choosing to fill the blank in with Metroid because of your own theory, not because of what the facts dictate.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Besides, it doesn't even refer to ROS by name when it is mentioned either, but everybody knows what it refers to. How can we not apply the same logic to Metroid?


The second paragraph specifically refers to Metroid II by talking about SR388 and the Metroid larva in detail. Those link Super Metroid to Metroid II. The first paragraph links Super Metroid to the first battle with the Metroid's on Zebes, which is not Metroid!
Also, there is not second game that causes that reference to Metroid II to be questioned. Zero Mission shows an earlier mission matching the intro's information.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
When you yourself admit that Super most likely referred to Metroid when speaking of her first Metroid encounter, how can you turn around and say that it's not? It was called "Metroid" for good reason.


It was likely referring to it back in 1994 (before Zero Mission was made), but NEVER specifically referred to Metroid. In 2004, Nintendo made a game that fit the 1994 description perfectly, which means the storyline is actually referring to Zero Mission, not Metroid like people may have assumed before 2004.
Dragonfangs
2006-04-12 01:26:46 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
*Answering my post about item locations* (quoting the entire thing seems like a waste)


Right, I suspect you missed my entire point, which is that the item locations are extremely similar in Metroid and ZM, the same thing can not be said about Metroid and SM.

Now, just for fun and because I'm bored and stuff, A LIST!
This is all taken from memory so if anyone sees any fault in this, be a nice guy/gal and point it out.
The items in this list are the powerups present in Metroid

Morph ball:
Metroid: Left of start
ZM: left of start
SM: left of ZM's and Metroid's start

Long Beam:
Metroid: First door to the left if you continue upwards when you should've gone towards the missiles and the bombs in Brinstar
ZM: First door to the left if you continue upwards when you should've gone towards the missiles and the bombs in Brinstar
SM: Not Present

Missiles:  (Refering to the first pack)
Metroid: Brinstar, on the way to Norfair
ZM: Brinstar, on the way to Norfair
SM: Close to where the entrance to Kraid's lair used to be

Bombs:
Metroid: Upper right of Brinstar
ZM: Upper right of Brinstar
SM: Top of Crateria shaft, left of ship

Ice Beam:
Metroid: Brinstar under a fake lava thingie AND In Norfair, up from when you reach the tall shaft
ZM: In Norfair, up from when you reach the tall shaft
SM: Norfair, not far from the Brinstar->Norfair elevator

Varia Suit:
Metroid: Top of Brinstar
ZM: Top of Brinstar
SM: Brinstar, right of the Brinstar->Norfair elevator, reward for beating Kraid

Wave Beam:
Metroid: Lower right of Norfair, above and to the left of the entrance to Ridley's hideout
ZM: Lower right of Norfair, above and to the left of the entrance to Ridley's hideout
SM: Right of Norfair.

Screw Attack:
Metroid: Somewhere in the center of Norfair
ZM: Somewhere in the center of Norfair
SM: Bottom of the new area "Lower Norfair", reward for beating golden Chorizo.

I think I can see a certain pattern.
BlueGlass
2006-04-12 03:35:17 pm
Quote from dai wrote:
Quote from Prime Huter wrote:
Uh.. yes it does. You said so yourself:
Quote from dai wrote:
When Super Metroid was first made, it was likely referring to Metroid because that was the only game. However, the quote never specifies Metroid. It merely leaves it to the player to fill in the blanks.
Uh... no I did not.


Yes you did, look about a third of the way down your last post on page 11.

Dai, if you say that MZM comes before Metroid, then how come the Metroids were
Quote from prologue in the MZM manual, which you say refers to Metroid and not MZM:
an unknown species
in M1 if they were already in MZM?
Prime Hunter
2006-04-12 04:28:38 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
The MAIN reason she was even sent on this mission was to stop the Metroids from being used as biological weapons. So, they DO have something to do with one another after all, don't they?

No, because her first battle there was not between the Metroids! Her first battle was with the Space Pirates. It just so happens that she later fought the Metroids after defeating the Space Pirates, which was her first battle with the Metroids. This battle took place ON ZEBES, which makes this consistent with Super Metroid's statement.

This time, you are the one that's wrong.

If you PLAY ZM, Samus defeats the Metroids and Mother Brain BEFORE she ever encounters a living Space Pirate. The only Space Pirates that are alive come afterwards, in the extended storyline.

Anyway, she is still sent on her mission to defeat the potential Metroid threat. This is still the main reason the mission even exists, since the Space Pirates wouldn't even need to be there without the Metroids being there.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
This leads us to the next statement, which you think indicates Metroid in the last statement. "It was there that..." This does reference the Metroid mission, but this does not imply that the Metroid mission was the first battle with the Metroids or that such battles took place at the same time. It merely states that it was on Zebes that this other battle took place.

I interpret it differently. They mention how Zebes is where she first encounters the Metroids. Why then, would it immediately mention that she also defeated the Mother Brain, who was going to use them against the galaxy? The way I see it, this means the exact same mission, not a different one.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
*The Chart*
I see your logic....

Ok, so you admit that everything after the first statement is correct then I take it?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Only because your theory is that Zero Mission is a remake. You are choosing to fill the blank in with Metroid because of your own theory, not because of what the facts dictate.

I have been playing the Metroid series FAR longer than Zero Mission has been out. (About Ten years now if I can remember correctly) Even back then, it was easy enough for me to make this connection. It was not recent decision based on anything having to do with ZM.

Are you saying that EVERYONE made the wrong assumption before ZM came out? Because that's what I am understanding.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
It was likely referring to it back in 1994 (before Zero Mission was made), but NEVER specifically referred to Metroid. In 2004, Nintendo made a game that fit the 1994 description perfectly, which means the storyline is actually referring to Zero Mission, not Metroid like people may have assumed before 2004.

ZM doesn't automatically take the place either, you know. There is no concrete evidence that says ZM MUST be the game that Super refers to now. Metroid fit in PERFECTLY for its time, but you insist that it doesn't mean it automatically takes the place either.

You make an assumption that ZM must be the game, just as we make the assumption that Metroid must be the game. And, according to the remake theory, both games can fit in since ZM replaces Metroid. Either way, it works.


Besides, there is one minor note that, as far as I know, you have failed to explain. If ZM is what is now refered to in Super Metroid's intro, but Metroid has to come between ZM and ROS, what do you say about this?

Quote from SM Intro, about ROS:
I NEXT fought the Metroids on their homeworld, SR388...

Leave out the Prime series (Since they are more of a side story that doesn't have much to do with the main one) and in your own timeline, it goes:
ZM ---> Metroid ---> ROS
So, how can ZM lead into ROS if Metroid is between them? Samus fights against some Metroids in the original game, no questions there. If she NEXT fought them on SR388, how can ZM come along and completely deny this fact? You say that ZM comes before Metroid, but also takes its place in the SM intro. I don't see how this is done if they are distinct places in the timeline.

If you take Metroid completely out of the storyline, and put ZM in its place as a remake, everything DOES adds up.
Kejardon
2006-04-12 04:29:37 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
wow, your responce is so laughable I'm not sure where to begin.

First part, (remake/port) you're being asanine again. I brought up my point first, and the point you brought up is being addressed elsewhere already.
All you're doing is avoiding my statement.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
No, it addresses Zero Mission in its intro and places itself in the future of Zero Mission. Can you prove this wrong?

right. I'm not even sure where to start here.
Zero Mission and Metroid share the same storyline to begin with, so Super Metroid does refer to Zero Mission and place itself in ZM's future, because it refers to Metroid and places itself in Metroid's future. (granted, you won't accept this logic because you don't accept that Metroid and Zero Mission share the same storyline)
The point we're debating is whether or not Super Metroid's intro is referring to Metroid I.
Your argument seems to be that Nintendo made up a quick intro about a fight on Zebes, but that intro was (at the time) not referring to any game or established storyline, because Metroid was replaced by Super Metroid. And this is still ignoring Metroid II's place in the storyline, which just makes your viewpoint even less sensible.
On the other hand, it is entirely sensible for the timeline to go Metroid --> Metroid II --> Metroid 3 (Super Metroid), both from the game production order, and from the storylines explained within the games.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
You cannot just claim that a game is a remake then say "inconsistencies do not matter with remakes, similarities do matter because it shows where the games are the same, and since you cannot convince me otherwise that it means I am right".

You're right.
Good thing I don't do that. :P

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Metroid's storyline shows that its mission is not the first as an intergalactic bounty hunter though. Therefore the commercial cannot be referring to Metroid.

only if it is interpreted literally.
However, it obviously is not meant to be interpreted literally:
Quote:
You can experience it as Samus, in Metroid: Zero Mission, her first mission as an intergalactic bounty hunter.

First off, you obviously do not become Samus.
If you were to experience such a mission, it would involve a full body workout, aliens attacking you with everything from claws to beams, Metroids trying to drain your life, etc.
What *really* happens is that you put in a game, watch the screen and listen to the sound, and press buttons, and using primarily only your finger muscles.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Again, you assume what Nintendo would and would not do to fit your own theory. Post evidence please.

I make assumptions about Nintendo's intentions because those intentions are relevant to the argument.
Those assumptions are based on facts, and are certainly not affected by my hypothesis. (frankly, as a scientist, I'm offended that you keep making this accusation)
There is no apparent reason to specifically mention the NES Metroid unless ZM is a remake of Metroid. Yes, it makes literal sense and is technically correct, but that would also justify people walking around and yelling out "G is 9.8 meters per second!". People rarely act randomly like that, let alone corporations.

As for evidence, you have posted no evidence that Nintendo functions only literally, while I have provided plenty that they use drama.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Have you forgotten about Fake Kraid, the fifth Zeebetite, the many areas of Zebes, and the backstory of Samus investigating mere rumors?

The first three are gameplay elements, not storyline elements.
As for the backstory...
Quote from Nintendo ZM Ad:
Sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a deadly alien species, Samus meets her match in the form of the mysterious Metroids

Quote from Metroid Manual:
It is suspected that the entire civilization of Planet SR388 was destroyed by some unknown person or thing, and there is a strong possibility that the life-form just discovered was the cause of the planet's destruction.

There's no conflicts about rumors here.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
I have no interpretation of these facts. I merely quote them.

A literal interpretation is still an interpretation.
You provide your literal view all over, in addition to quotes. If you used *only* quotes, people would have concluded 'idiom' and moved on long ago.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
And have undeniable proof that it was a mistake to call it that, which you also ignore.

I have to admit: I do not recall ever seeing any undeniable proof that 'first mission' was an accident.
I suspect that it's because you haven't provided any, however, not that I have ignored it.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
That is evidence that you cannot refute but do ignore quite well.

Quote from Kejardon:
All you have are more quotes that say similar things, and we argue more about interpretation. You give no evidence that your interpretation of the quotes is accurate, though.

I wonder if I could manage to counter all your points with copy and paste.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Remakes change storylines though, remember? You cannot prove that it is a sequel using storyline because the storyline was changed. Also, the intro never depicts Metroid or mentions it. You have no facts, only theories.

What, you want Super Metroid to have an image of the NES cartridge when talking about it? The Super Metroid intro mentions the same mission as in the NES Metroid, and has a clip showing Samus defeating Mother Brain, as in the NES Metroid. There is no other thing Super Metroid might sensibly be talking about other than the NES Metroid, and it makes far, FAR more sense to have it refer to the NES Metroid instead of nothing.

I have supported my viewpoint with plenty of evidence. On a side note, look up 'theory' again, I believe you have it confused with hypothesis still.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
It did not change Metroid. It did not change anything. It simply became the mission that Super Metroid (Metroid) was referring to. Thus it adds more to the backstory!

So you're officially taking the viewpoint that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid?
If so, then this thread should wait until that argument is settled. If not, then you need to come up with something relevant.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
The quote says, "tap into abilities [she] did not know [she] had", not that she learned them.

If I learn to play the flute real well, I'm tapping into an ability (flute playing) that I didn't know I had.
The point is moot though - this is just demonstrating that the programmers are more concerned about gameplay than storyline.
MonsterERB
2006-04-12 05:02:52 pm
Quote from P.JBoy, somewhere way back on page 1:
imo we took it alot better than scu
http://www.samusforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=9022

Really?  I rather like the fact that I knew what was going to happen - that DG was going to post walls and walls of text, completely ignoring any attempt to respond to other people's arguments, throwing logic and common sense out the window - and locked the damn thread on page 1, so that people wouldn't end up wasting their time trying to refute this guy's arguments.  You could produce Shigeru Miyamoto and the ghost of Gunpei Yokoi to tell Dai Grepher IN PERSON that MZM was a remake, and not a prequel - and he would tell them that they don't know what they're talking about, because he has a new wall of text to show them.
...
At least Dai Grepher uses immaculate spelling and grammar.  He's obviously a smart, articulate guy.  Just EXTRAORDINARILY stubborn, and cannot for one nanosecond believe that any of his opinions might just possibly be slightly less than 100.00% correct.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-12 05:25:36 pm
No I did not.

They were unknown to the Federation scientists that were taking samples from SR388. It does not say that the pirates knew nothing of them or that Samus did not know of them.

In fact, Metroid Prime states that the pirates knew about the Metroids and studied them for many years beneath Zebes' surface even as Samus was being raised there by the Chozo.

So please do not say that "unknown/recently discovered species" means no one knew about them because then how do you explain the fact that the Metroid's were created by the Chozo unless some beings knew of them and some did not? Metroids were unknown to the Federation, not to Samus or the pirates. Since Samus was sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a "deadly alien species" in Zero Mission (still the Federation did not know they were Metroids) and she was sent alone, that means she is the only one that knew about the Metroids being that species. Since Samus kept this mission a secret and did not tell anyone about it (now I shall finally tell the tale...) that shows why the Federation did not know about the Metroids. Samus obviously concealed this information because she did not trust the Federation during this early stage in her career.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Right, I suspect you missed my entire point, which is that the item locations are extremely similar in Metroid and ZM, the same thing can not be said about Metroid and SM.


That does not really matter though since some of Zero Mission's items are not in the same places either. If remakes change item locations as well, then it also applies to Super Metroid.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Long Beam:
Metroid: First door to the left if you continue upwards when you should've gone towards the missiles and the bombs in Brinstar
ZM: First door to the left if you continue upwards when you should've gone towards the missiles and the bombs in Brinstar
SM: Not Present


It is present. Samus begins the game with it. Nintendo obviously thought it would be better if she started with it rather than waste time placing another item in the game, thus making a 101% item limit.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Missiles: (Refering to the first pack)
Metroid: Brinstar, on the way to Norfair
ZM: Brinstar, on the way to Norfair
SM: Close to where the entrance to Kraid's lair used to be


Not fair! That part of Brinstar was omitted from Super Metroid, of course Samus would not find missiles there!
Anyway, the sequence of events is off as well. If you want to make a big deal over items, then I should be able to over locked doors. Samus can get the Long Beam before the missiles in Zero Mission because the door to that room is blue and not red like in Metroid. The game even encourages Samus to get the Long Beam first because of the barricade blocking access to the yellow shaft in Brinstar.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Bombs:
Metroid: Upper right of Brinstar
ZM: Upper right of Brinstar
SM: Top of Crateria shaft, left of ship


Again, omitted areas! Of course they will not be in the same place. Also, the Bombs in Zero Mission are above where they are located in Metroid.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Ice Beam:
Metroid: Brinstar under a fake lava thingie AND In Norfair, up from when you reach the tall shaft
ZM: In Norfair, up from when you reach the tall shaft
SM: Norfair, not far from the Brinstar->Norfair elevator


Norfair was "remade" in Super Metroid. The location of that item was as well. Remakes change things, remember?

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Varia Suit:
Metroid: Top of Brinstar
ZM: Top of Brinstar
SM: Brinstar, right of the Brinstar->Norfair elevator, reward for beating Kraid


Another omitted area. They had to place it somewhere new.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Wave Beam:
Metroid: Lower right of Norfair, above and to the left of the entrance to Ridley's hideout
ZM: Lower right of Norfair, above and to the left of the entrance to Ridley's hideout
SM: Right of Norfair.


Who says there were not two Wave Beams? Metroid had two Ice Beams. Perhaps Super Metroid has two but leaves the first inaccessible due to map changes.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Screw Attack:
Metroid: Somewhere in the center of Norfair
ZM: Somewhere in the center of Norfair
SM: Bottom of the new area "Lower Norfair", reward for beating golden Chorizo.


Samus must Shine Spark in order to get to it. She could not do that in Metroid. In Metroid she had to find a path in the ceiling and move up that way.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
I think I can see a certain pattern.


Yes, but since when does Nintendo care about consistency and "patterns"? They only care about rehashing a game and selling it again. The designers are not going to restrict their creativity just to make everything single detail match up exactly the same. You still have not proven that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid.  :P

*Looks over Kejardon's post.* Most of that is all his opinion. This will not take long.

Quote from Kejardon:
right. I'm not even sure where to start here.
Zero Mission and Metroid share the same storyline to begin with, so Super Metroid does refer to Zero Mission and place itself in ZM's future, because it refers to Metroid and places itself in Metroid's future.


That is just your opinion, not fact! Post facts please.

Quote from Kejardon:
The point we're debating is whether or not Super Metroid's intro is referring to Metroid I.
Your argument seems to be that Nintendo made up a quick intro about a fight on Zebes, but that intro was (at the time) not referring to any game or established storyline, because Metroid was replaced by Super Metroid.


No, Nintendo made up a fact stating that Samus' first battle with the Metroids was on Zebes. That does not refer to any specific mission, it is merely stating a fact.

Quote from Kejardon:
And this is still ignoring Metroid II's place in the storyline, which just makes your viewpoint even less sensible.


Metroid II was referring to Metroid, until Super Metroid remade it to be a sequel to Metroid II, which is what the designers wanted originally but could not do because of graphical limitations.

Quote from Kejardon:
On the other hand, it is entirely sensible for the timeline to go Metroid --> Metroid II --> Metroid 3 (Super Metroid), both from the game production order, and from the storylines explained within the games.


So game production order dictates timeline? That means Zero Mission follows Metroid Fusion. Please post facts, not opinions.

Quote from Kejardon:
only if it is interpreted literally.
However, it obviously is not meant to be interpreted literally:
Quote:
You can experience it as Samus, in Metroid: Zero Mission, her first mission as an intergalactic bounty hunter.

First off, you obviously do not become Samus.


In video games, you do become the character. You are wrong yet again.

Quote from Kejardon:
If you were to experience such a mission, it would involve a full body workout, aliens attacking you with everything from claws to beams, Metroids trying to drain your life, etc.
What *really* happens is that you put in a game, watch the screen and listen to the sound, and press buttons, and using primarily only your finger muscles.


You completely avoided the points that prove you wrong. Ignoring the facts do not make them go away. Sorry, you lose.

Quote from Kejardon:
I make assumptions about Nintendo's intentions because those intentions are relevant to the argument.


Your assumptions are based on your theory, and therefore null and void.

Quote from Kejardon:
There is no apparent reason to specifically mention the NES Metroid unless ZM is a remake of Metroid.


Comparison contrast. Also, Zero Mission expands on Metroid as a prequel, so there are reasons to mention it.

Quote from Kejardon:
The first three are gameplay elements, not storyline elements.
As for the backstory...
Nintendo ZM Ad wrote:
Sent to Zebes to investigate rumors of a deadly alien species, Samus meets her match in the form of the mysterious Metroids

Metroid Manual wrote:
It is suspected that the entire civilization of Planet SR388 was destroyed by some unknown person or thing, and there is a strong possibility that the life-form just discovered was the cause of the planet's destruction.

There's no conflicts about rumors here.


Creatures that emerge from an over-sized cerebrum beneath the planet's surface? That is not Metroid, not matter what incorrect interpretation you have. Your quotes also have nothing to do with the rumors of the alien species existing on Zebes, or the fact that the pirates went to Zebes to extract them. Again, the facts prove you wrong.

Quote from Kejardon:
A literal interpretation is still an interpretation.
You provide your literal view all over, in addition to quotes. If you used *only* quotes, people would have concluded 'idiom' and moved on long ago.


You dodged the facts once again.

Quote from Kejardon:
I have to admit: I do not recall ever seeing any undeniable proof that 'first mission' was an accident.
I suspect that it's because you haven't provided any, however, not that I have ignored it.


The Metroid manual states that Metroid is not Samus' first mission. That proves it is a mistake to call it the first mission rather than first game.

Quote from Kejardon:
I wonder if I could manage to counter all your points with copy and paste.


You may as well try. Your current method yields no results.

Quote from Kejardon:
What, you want Super Metroid to have an image of the NES cartridge when talking about it? The Super Metroid intro mentions the same mission as in the NES Metroid, and has a clip showing Samus defeating Mother Brain, as in the NES Metroid.


That is the Zero Mission game according to most people here on Metroid2002. Can you prove them wrong? I did not think so.

Quote from Kejardon:
There is no other thing Super Metroid might sensibly be talking about other than the NES Metroid, and it makes far, FAR more sense to have it refer to the NES Metroid instead of nothing.


A Link to the Past refers to the Imprisoning War, yet no game featured that (maybe OoT did, but that is another debate).

Quote from Kejardon:
I have supported my viewpoint with plenty of evidence. On a side note, look up 'theory' again, I believe you have it confused with hypothesis still.


I looked both words up. Hypothesis said, "See: Kejardon". You have provided no evidence whatsoever!

Quote from Kejardon:
So you're officially taking the viewpoint that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid?
If so, then this thread should wait until that argument is settled. If not, then you need to come up with something relevant.


Of course not. I just want you to see how ludicrous your logic sounds when applied to a game that even you do not think is a remake.

Quote from Kejardon:
If I learn to play the flute real well, I'm tapping into an ability (flute playing) that I didn't know I had.
The point is moot though - this is just demonstrating that the programmers are more concerned about gameplay than storyline.


No, you are learning the flute. Then someone gives you a better flute. Then someone shows you how to tap into that playing ability that you did not know you had with that flute.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
This time, you are the one that's wrong.

If you PLAY ZM, Samus defeats the Metroids and Mother Brain BEFORE she ever encounters a living Space Pirate. The only Space Pirates that are alive come afterwards, in the extended storyline.


Right, because it isn't like she beat the Leader of the Space Pirates before being able to access the area that held the Metroids. :D

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Anyway, she is still sent on her mission to defeat the potential Metroid threat. This is still the main reason the mission even exists, since the Space Pirates wouldn't even need to be there without the Metroids being there.


So what? Super Metroid never said that the first mission was her first battle with the Metroids, or that Metroid was her first battle with the Metroids.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I interpret it differently. They mention how Zebes is where she first encounters the Metroids. Why then, would it immediately mention that she also defeated the Mother Brain, who was going to use them against the galaxy? The way I see it, this means the exact same mission, not a different one.


Samus described a setting in one sentence. Then she described an event that pertained to the mission at hand. Like I said, this is not a contradiction. Had there been no period there or if word "there" had been "then", then we would have a debate on our hands. Well, actually I would probably just agree that it is a remake if that were the case.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Ok, so you admit that everything after the first statement is correct then I take it?


"It was there that I..." refers to Metroid, and other statements refer to their respective game. However, I think that all of the statements are correct.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I have been playing the Metroid series FAR longer than Zero Mission has been out. (About Ten years now if I can remember correctly) Even back then, it was easy enough for me to make this connection. It was not recent decision based on anything having to do with ZM.


Yes it does, because Zero Mission is a prequel to Metroid, and thus what Super Metroid must be referring to. You do not believe this because you do not believe Zero Mission is a prequel. However, you have nothing to link that statement to Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Are you saying that EVERYONE made the wrong assumption before ZM came out? Because that's what I am understanding.


Not the wrong one exactly. The logical one. There was no other mission that we knew about, so assuming it was Metroid was logical. However, Zero Mission came along and took its place before Metroid, thus showing that the statement refers to Zero Mission as the first mission and first battle with the Metroids.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
ZM doesn't automatically take the place either, you know. There is no concrete evidence that says ZM MUST be the game that Super refers to now. Metroid fit in PERFECTLY for its time, but you insist that it doesn't mean it automatically takes the place either.


Metroid did not take the place because it was circumstantial evidence. Metroid took place on Zebes and featured a Metroid battle. Zero Mission does as well, but it is the first mission, and thus no mission can come before it. Therefore it is the true event being referenced in Super Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
You make an assumption that ZM must be the game, just as we make the assumption that Metroid must be the game. And, according to the remake theory, both games can fit in since ZM replaces Metroid. Either way, it works.


No, the "first mission" fact makes Zero Mission the correct answer. If Nintendo made a new game with a mission on Zebes that featured a Metroid battle and set it before Zero Mission, Super Metroid would be referring to that game. However, this would contradict Zero Mission as being the first mission. Unless the new mission was to be some kind of time travel deal or something.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Besides, there is one minor note that, as far as I know, you have failed to explain. If ZM is what is now refered to in Super Metroid's intro, but Metroid has to come between ZM and ROS, what do you say about this?

SM Intro, about ROS wrote:
I NEXT fought the Metroids on their homeworld, SR388...

Leave out the Prime series (Since they are more of a side story that doesn't have much to do with the main one) and in your own timeline, it goes:
ZM ---> Metroid ---> ROS
So, how can ZM lead into ROS if Metroid is between them?


Samus states that she first fought the Metroids on Zebes. That is true with Zero Mission. However, like I said, Super Metroid does not refer to any mission with that statement. The statement with Mother Brain refers to Metroid, which is obvious by the movie clip and other details. Then she refers to Metroid II, skipping the Prime series completely because it is not relevant to Super Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Samus fights against some Metroids in the original game, no questions there. If she NEXT fought them on SR388, how can ZM come along and completely deny this fact?


Here is a short answer (because first of all, Samus is not referring to Zero Mission at all in the Super Metroid intro, just events that Zero Mission had in that game). In both of our timelines, Samus does not mention the Prime series. She only mentions the relevant missions. This is the case with my timeline. Goes from Metroid to Metroid II and leaves the Primes out of it.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
You say that ZM comes before Metroid, but also takes its place in the SM intro. I don't see how this is done if they are distinct places in the timeline.


No, it does not take place in the intro at all. The statement of first battling the Metroids on Zebes takes place in the intro. Those events are fulfilled by Zero Mission. I said this from the start, Super Metroid's statement of the Metroid battle does not refer to ANY mission specifically, rather a fact.

I hope that explains it. It had been nice discussing this with you. Thank you for taking the time to debate this.
Chanoire
2006-04-12 05:29:38 pm
While I don't agree with Dai, let me clarify a couple of his points since the argument does not seem to be addressing his actual meaning:

1) He says that the SM intro refers to Samus's first encounter with metroids, without naming the adventure in which this occurs.  At the time of the game's release, the first encounter known to the gaming audience was the NES Metroid; however, if there had been any encounter previous to Metroid not yet revealed to the gaming audience then the SM intro would refer to that; it's referring to the earliest in Samus's history, not that of the gamer.  So if ZM is a prequel to Metroid, "first encounter" would be ZM rather than M1.  (However, "next", as Prime Hunter pointed out, knocks this for a loop unless one posits a second adventure on SR-388 before Metroid.)

2) Accepting someone's logic does not mean accepting their conclusion, because one may disagree with their premises.  One can say "If A then B, and since A exists, B must be the case" and have good logic (Modus Ponens ftw), but if I'm mistaken and A is actually false then B cannot be guaranteed.

3) Dai doesn't actually think SM is a remake; he's just repeating everything about ZM being a remake in that fashion to try to show that the reasoning is insufficient and absurd because we dismiss the idea of SM being a remake out of hand.  He's missing the scale for it, though; calling a port a remake is a lot more reasonable and likely than calling a new game a port, or a port a new game...I forget which he said.

Finally, a comment of my own is that considering the lack of single wall jump in Fusion as an in-game story element supporting significance in gaining and losing abilities is nuts.  The storytelling structure of Fusion made it necessary to keep the player from getting ahead of things, and the single walljump is an ability which is entirely optional -- the double wall jump which the Etecoons actually "taught" her is in Fusion; it's only the repeated single wall jump, which the Etecoons do not demonstrate, which is disabled.  For that matter, Ekarderif and Sess both showed ways to manage it by utilizing other aspects of the game's physics.

Edit: Lots of words showed up while I was writing that, and possibly more are being written as I add this edit which will then cause this edit to be lost entirely (a minor problem of the no-double-posting rule, since people aren't that likely to reread the post they're replying to to see if it's changed since the last time they looked).  Still, I'll try anyway.

Quote from Dai:
Quote from Dragonfangs:
Screw Attack:
Metroid: Somewhere in the center of Norfair
ZM: Somewhere in the center of Norfair
SM: Bottom of the new area "Lower Norfair", reward for beating golden Chorizo.

Samus must Shine Spark in order to get to it. She could not do that in Metroid. In Metroid she had to find a path in the ceiling and move up that way.

Which is also a perfectly viable means in ZM.  See attachment.

(BTW, Dragonfangs, "chorizo" = a kind of food.)

Quote from Dai:
No, you are learning the flute. Then someone gives you a better flute. Then someone shows you how to tap into that playing ability that you did not know you had with that flute.

I've lost track of what you're trying to say with that, but it's clear that you don't play the flute.  There are very few things that would be possible with one flute and not another, barring the obvious case of being in poor repair or totally different type (e.g. recorder vs. transverse), and they wouldn't be products of playing ability

attachment:
getting_to_SA.png
BlueGlass
2006-04-12 06:08:37 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
In fact, Metroid Prime states that the pirates knew about the Metroids and studied them for many years beneath Zebes' surface even as Samus was being raised there by the Chozo.


Proof please?

Also, the point of Dragonfangs's post was to show that the item locations in M1 and MZM were very similar, while the items in SM were in completely different locations.
Tahngarthor
2006-04-12 07:34:55 pm
Bangaa Bishop
Quote:
Kejardon wrote:
What, you want Super Metroid to have an image of the NES cartridge when talking about it? The Super Metroid intro mentions the same mission as in the NES Metroid, and has a clip showing Samus defeating Mother Brain, as in the NES Metroid.


That is the Zero Mission game according to most people here on Metroid2002. Can you prove them wrong? I did not think so.


Define "Most people."

That aside, There is no way for Super Metroid to refer to a game that, at the time, didn't exist. You watch Samus defeat the mother brain in a tourian that looks more like the NES one against a mother brain that looks nothing like the ZM one. ZM as a game did not exist, the creators would not flash back to something that doesnt exist (and really, I dont think at the time Super Metroid was released, that they planned to do a remake or prequel of any of those games at that time).

Quote:
That is just your opinion, not fact! Post facts please.


Follow your own advice please.
spineshark
2006-04-12 08:54:52 pm
in the name of justice!
Quote from Dai Grepher:
I am not 100% sure that Super Castlevania is a remake, as I have not looked into that issue. It is probably best to leave remakes from other series out of this discussion.

I think this must be because there is no precedent for such a similar game being completely different in the story...
Quote:
They reused Kraid and Ridley (the areas) but made them different. It is only logical that they reuse the music from those areas but make them different. I think they just reused it because Metroid is the only game that those areas appeared in along with that music.

But Super does not feature these areas or this music...the developers either intended a strong connection...or were lazy.  Besides, Ridley's room, though altered in size, exists in essentially the same position as it does in MZM...not so sure about Kraid's, since I still don't know what it looks like in ZM, but the tall "escape column" is definitely in both games.

Quote:
I disagree. The wall jump requires Samus to move back toward the wall she just pushed away from. That defies physics, and in Fusion this ability is lost. This means that it is an actual suit ability that makes her move through the air using forces in the suit and not by physical contact with another surface. Since this ability is lost or downgraded in Fusion, I would call this a suit ability.

The wall jump is an ability that defies physics, therefore her ability to do it in the stealth sequence can be attributed to her body suit, which does hold biological and technological components.

Okay, I think I've figured this out.  Should a person use logic to argue your points, you will demand "facts."  Should a person present anything you may consider a "fact" you will simply ignore any conclusion they may draw from it.

I do not believe there is any way for you to prove that Samus herself is unable to jump up a wall in RoS.  Just because the game does not feature any input for this action is not proof, since the game features no player input for diagonal aiming either.

Before you forget the real meaning of this argument, I'm simply trying to show that the game developers either don't care about all that consistency, or that they are capable of making mistakes in that consistency, that seem far more important than the way some glass breaks.
nn12000
2006-04-13 12:34:56 am
Mister ...
But teh original Metroid didn't have Wall Jumping either.  Wall Jumping and Diagnal Aiming were added in Zero Mission.  These probably weren't added in teh original because there wasn't much of a need for them, though they would've been helpful (specially with the Zoomers on the floor that you couldn't duck and kill).  Being able to crouch was also added in ZM.  The reason that the Original Metroid didn't include any of this was maybe because the NES was such a simple system with little memory to spare, preventing them from adding these abilities. (Might also explain why everything looked the same)

People who have played BOTH ZM and M1 should realize that most of the areas are identicle in layout, and the items are found in the same place, with the addition of a few items and areas in ZM. Many people would think that obviously these games are basically the same.  Even Samus' gun is at the same height as it was in Metroid 1.  The overall gameplay of ZM is supposed to be exactly like Metroid 1, which is what Ninendo was going for.  Nintendo intended Zero Mission to be a perfect remake of Metroid 1, with added extra's they couldn't add in the original.  Which might be why they remade it, to add teh extra's they couldn't have back in teh 80's.
primetime
2006-04-13 02:09:35 am
Quote from nn12000:
But teh original Metroid didn't have Wall Jumping either.  Wall Jumping and Diagnal Aiming were added in Zero Mission.  These probably weren't added in teh original because there wasn't much of a need for them, though they would've been helpful (specially with the Zoomers on the floor that you couldn't duck and kill).  Being able to crouch was also added in ZM.  The reason that the Original Metroid didn't include any of this was maybe because the NES was such a simple system with little memory to spare, preventing them from adding these abilities. (Might also explain why everything looked the same)

People who have played BOTH ZM and M1 should realize that most of the areas are identicle in layout, and the items are found in the same place, with the addition of a few items and areas in ZM. Many people would think that obviously these games are basically the same.  Even Samus' gun is at the same height as it was in Metroid 1.  The overall gameplay of ZM is supposed to be exactly like Metroid 1, which is what Ninendo was going for.  Nintendo intended Zero Mission to be a perfect remake of Metroid 1, with added extra's they couldn't add in the original.  Which might be why they remade it, to add teh extra's they couldn't have back in teh 80's.
Normally that would be common sense, but Dai's going to avoid all common sense and say that you have no proof.  Rolling Eyes

And Dai, after 12 pages of walls of text you still haven't proven that zero mission is a prequel. Sure, you've provided evidence, but I still have yet to see any solid, "undeniable" proof that zero mission is a prequel. If you give me some solid proof about it then maybe I'll believe you. But until then I'm sticking to my instinct and saying that ZM is a remake.

(lemme guess, I have no proof that ZM is a remake, right? Either that or I have no proof that its not a sequel  Rolling Eyes )
Tahngarthor
2006-04-13 02:19:34 am
Bangaa Bishop
Thats what I think, as well.

But be prepared to be shot down in a blaze of glory by Dai.

"its just a coincidence" "theres no proof nintendo intended that" "I got an email from a nintendo guy that doesnt really reveal anything but it proves you wrong anyway"

(to 2 posts above).
Kejardon
2006-04-13 03:40:43 am
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Quote from Dai Grepher:
That is just your opinion, not fact! Post facts please.
My point was not to disprove you, my point was that we are not arguing about whether or not SM's intro refers to Zero Mission. We both agree it does (although for different reasons). We do NOT agree whether or not it refers to Metroid I.
In fact, that's the very next thing I said in my post.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
Your argument seems to be that Nintendo made up a quick intro about a fight on Zebes, but that intro was (at the time) not referring to any game or established storyline, because Metroid was replaced by Super Metroid.
No, Nintendo made up a fact stating that Samus' first battle with the Metroids was on Zebes. That does not refer to any specific mission, it is merely stating a fact.
Okay, now you're being REALLY ignorant of my posts. You contradict me then say the same thing I said a second ago. The only part you didn't repeat was that Metroid was replaced by Super Metroid, which you seem to flip flop between affirming and denying.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Metroid II was referring to Metroid, until Super Metroid remade it to be a sequel to Metroid II, which is what the designers wanted originally but could not do because of graphical limitations.
You said already that you are not officially taking the view that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid. The in-game introduction makes that idea pretty ridiculous anyways.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
So game production order dictates timeline? That means Zero Mission follows Metroid Fusion. Please post facts, not opinions.
Fine.
Quote from Kejardon:
On the other hand, it is entirely sensible for the timeline to go Metroid --> Metroid II --> Metroid 3 (Super Metroid)<strike>, both from the game production order, and</strike> from the storylines explained within the games.


Quote from Kejardon:
only if it is interpreted literally.
However, it obviously is not meant to be interpreted literally:
Quote:
You can experience it as Samus, in Metroid: Zero Mission, her first mission as an intergalactic bounty hunter.
First off, you obviously do not become Samus.
Quote from Dai Grepher:
In video games, you do become the character. You are wrong yet again.
You play the character. You do not literally become the character. (seriously, try selling that to a serious roguelike player. I'd love to see the response. :P)

Quote from Dai Grepher:
You completely avoided the points that prove you wrong. Ignoring the facts do not make them go away. Sorry, you lose.
Your point is that the quote says 'Metroid: Zero Mission, her first mission as an intergalactic bounty hunter', and according to a literal interpretation of that, ZM is the first mission Samus ever takes. My point is that this quote is not to be interpreted literally, as evidenced by the first half of the quote, therefor invalidating your point.
I have no reason to directly address an invalidated point.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Your assumptions are based on your theory, and therefore null and void.
I've had enough of this kind of blatantly hypocritical 'refutal'. Stop trolling.

Quote from Kejardon:
There is no apparent reason to specifically mention the NES Metroid unless ZM is a remake of Metroid.
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Comparison contrast.
... what? I honestly don't know what you mean with that. (yes, I know what comparison-contrast means, but I have no idea how it can sensibly apply to that)

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Also, Zero Mission expands on Metroid as a prequel, so there are reasons to mention it.
Quote from Kejardon:
There is no apparent reason to specifically mention the NES Metroid unless ZM is a remake of Metroid. Yes, it makes literal sense and is technically correct, but that would also justify people walking around and yelling out "G is 9.8 meters per second!". People rarely act randomly like that, let alone corporations.


Quote from Dai Grepher:
Creatures that emerge from an over-sized cerebrum beneath the planet's surface? That is not Metroid, not matter what incorrect interpretation you have.
... again, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Your quotes also have nothing to do with the rumors of the alien species existing on Zebes, or the fact that the pirates went to Zebes to extract them. Again, the facts prove you wrong.
Fine, I'll connect the dots for you real quick then.
Quote from M1 Manual:
The Federation researchers had named it "Metroid" and were bringing it back to Earth - when it was stolen by space pirates!
...
After a desperate search, the Federation Police have at last found the pirates' headquarters, the fortress planet Zebes, and launched a general attack. But the pirates' resistance is strong, and the Police have been unable to take the planet. Meanwhile, in a room hidden deep within the center of the fortress, the preparations for multiplying the Metroid are progressing steadily.
The phrasing about extracting the metroids is a bit strange, but still sensible: From the sounds of it, they've established their base, set up and completed research, and are nearing ready for using Metroids as war weapons. They then send in a ship to pick up the Metroids for use in battle.
After all, there are no Metroids seen except in Tourian, and Samus apparently destroyed them all when destroying Tourian. Otherwise Ridley wouldn't need to go to Ceres and steal one, which led to Zebes' complete destruction in Super Metroid.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
You dodged the facts once again.
I have addressed the facts (aka the quotes) several times already. You are confusing your interpretations and opinions with facts. I AM ignoring your interpretation because you provide no evidence to back it up.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
The Metroid manual states that Metroid is not Samus' first mission. That proves it is a mistake to call it the first mission rather than first game.
uh huh.
I have directly answered this at least twice already. I have indirectly answered this probably around 10 times or more.
Let's go and say it yet AGAIN: Nintendo often implies 'First game' when it says 'First mission/adventure'. When they said 'first mission' in their description, it was expected that the readers would think 'first game'. Nintendo does this because they like drama, and 'game' is not a dramatic word.
Yes, this is 'my opinion'. My opinion, however, is supported by evidence which I have pointed out all through this topic.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
I wonder if I could manage to counter all your points with copy and paste.
You may as well try. Your current method yields no results.
I'm curious what you mean by 'no results'. But I think I'll try the copy and paste next post. If this post is any indication, it should work pretty well. :P

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
What, you want Super Metroid to have an image of the NES cartridge when talking about it? The Super Metroid intro mentions the same mission as in the NES Metroid, and has a clip showing Samus defeating Mother Brain, as in the NES Metroid.
That is the Zero Mission game according to most people here on Metroid2002. Can you prove them wrong? I did not think so.
It is the Zero Mission story, and the Metroid I story. Because they are the same story.
That's the view according to most people here on M2K2, myself included (seriously, I think you're the only exception).
Seriously, it sounds like you're arguing against yourself. Certainly, what you say in no way contradicts my point.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
There is no other thing Super Metroid might sensibly be talking about other than the NES Metroid, and it makes far, FAR more sense to have it refer to the NES Metroid instead of nothing.
A Link to the Past refers to the Imprisoning War, yet no game featured that (maybe OoT did, but that is another debate).
I don't see any relevance to that. Though I'm really weak on Zelda's storyline, personally - I don't know what the Imprisoning War is.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
I looked both words up. Hypothesis said, "See: Kejardon". You have provided no evidence whatsoever!
I'd give that insult a 2 out of 10. You've said that many times already, poor wit, no bite, not true or sensible in any way, and explaining insults tend to make the insult sound stupid. The only good thing about it is that you didn't inadvertently insult yourself.

Quote from Kejardon:
So you're officially taking the viewpoint that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid?
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Of course not. I just want you to see how ludicrous your logic sounds when applied to a game that even you do not think is a remake.
Ok, then you haven't answered this point:
Quote from Kejardon:
The only way Zero Mission's storyline doesn't overlap with Metroid's is if Zero Mission changes the meaning of Super Metroid's introduction, which *you* have insisted, not other people. *I* insist that Zero Mission does *not* change any storyline, but adds detail instead, within the story of Metroid I.


On a side note, what is 'my logic' that you're mocking? Because the main evidence I see that Zero Mission is a remake (or at the very least, cannot occur before Metroid I) is Super Metroid's introduction. Calling Super Metroid a remake of Metroid contradicts Super Metroid's introduction; the same logic that I'm using against ZM being a prequel also says that Super Metroid isn't a remake of Metroid.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
No, you are learning the flute. Then someone gives you a better flute. Then someone shows you how to tap into that playing ability that you did not know you had with that flute.
o_O
I'd argue against your logic, but the point is still moot. Twice over, even. And this post is long enough.
Dragonfangs
2006-04-13 08:10:52 am
Quote from Dai Grepher:
You still have not proven that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid.


No, I haven't. I proved that, based on item locations, ZM is a lot more likely to be remake than SM is.

Omitted/redesigned areas is a moot point, ALL main upgrades in Metroid (duplicates of beams do not count as they have a logical reason to be removed) are in the same geographical place in Zero Mission, the same thing CANNOT be said about Super Metroid. Means of getting there and how the nearby rooms look is irrelevant. And Long Beam is not present in Super Metroid in the form of an upgrade.
Purple Lizard
2006-04-13 11:29:17 am
ad hominem

adj : Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

Quote from Kejardon:
It is the Zero Mission story, and the Metroid I story. Because they are the same story.
That's the view according to most people here on M2K2, myself included (seriously, I think you're the only exception).


To be fair, as of a couple centuries ago, the view according to most people was that the world was flat.  I'm not saying that invalidates your argument, I'm just saying it's a bit of a weak point because assuming that just because the large majority of the population subscribe to a certain viewpoint, it makes it the correct one is a bit of a fallacy. 

That all said, I myself believe that MZM is a remake of M1 simply because of the way it feels, which is something Kejardon and some others touched upon.  I played the original Metroid ad nauseam as a child, back when it was the ONLY metroid.  When I played SM for the very first time back in 1994, there was really no doubt in my mind that it was a sequel and not a remake, not just because of the intro, but because everything was ENTIRELY different, with the exception of a few nostalgic places like the old tourian shaft, the original metroid starting point, etc.  The music was entirely different, the map layouts, enemy designs, everything.  It was a whole new exploration experience.

On the other hand, the very first time I played MZM, to me it simply felt like seeing M1 through a fresh set of eyes.  I really feel that it is impossible, or at least very highly improbable that anyone who had played M1 for a huge quantity of time and now playing MZM for the very first time did not draw upon their memories of the first game to locate stuff.  That couldn't happen in SM, but it sure as hell could happen for the majority of MZM.  Chozo statues aside, you just knew to go all the way up the first blue shaft and make a left for the long beam.  The  missile door no longer blocking the way is a moot point, because of the fact that it's still there.  Same with many of the other item locations that I believe Prime Hunter listed.  Seasoned veterans of the first game KNEW to look in those locations even without chozo hints or whatever because they've already done it before in M1.  Sure there may be some differences here and there, but the very feel of the original game remains intact.  Players can hear the heroic march of the Brinstar theme, or the haunting Kraid's lair melody, and reflect back to the first game.  Even the enemy designs are just updated sprites of the enemies in the first game.  Conversely, those who play MZM very extensively and now playing M1 for the first time (conveniently unlockable on the same cartridge) would be able to identify all of the item locations, enemies, music, map layouts, etc. even if everything is very rustic, and much more difficult to control and navigate, because it's essentially the same game, except one is much more updated. 

To use an analogy, M1 would be like looking at an old concept sketch, and MZM would be like the final product that someone else was commissioned to do based on that concept sketch.  Yes, there may be some details shifted around a bit, it's all colored in now, and polished up, but the very essence of the original concept drawing still lies in it.