page  <- 1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,  9,  10,  11,  12,  13,  14,  15,  16,  17,  18 -> <- 1 .. 11 .. 18 ->
^^
vv
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
primetime
2006-04-09 06:03:10 pm
Wait. but if it says the MZM is Samus' first mission, then later says that she's had numerous other missions, don't those contradict with each other? I'm confused...  :?

But either way, the good thing is I tried.  :P
Superion
2006-04-09 11:46:40 pm
Quote from primetime:
Wait. but if it says the MZM is Samus' first mission, then later says that she's had numerous other missions, don't those contradict with each other? I'm confused...  :?

But either way, the good thing is I tried.  :P


It could mean it is her first mission working for the Space Federation and againts Metroids. I'm sure she had numerous missions doing numerous things for numerous people in her bounty hunter career. But I'm just speculating, ther eis nothing to suppport this.
primetime
2006-04-10 01:53:43 am
Quote from Superion:
Quote from primetime:
Wait. but if it says the MZM is Samus' first mission, then later says that she's had numerous other missions, don't those contradict with each other? I'm confused...  :?

But either way, the good thing is I tried.  :P


It could mean it is her first mission working for the Space Federation and againts Metroids. I'm sure she had numerous missions doing numerous things for numerous people in her bounty hunter career. But I'm just speculating, ther eis nothing to suppport this.

EDIT: Why won't my quote work? :?
Oh, OK. I'll go with that. And about the quote thingy, I noticed it wasn't working in some other posts, maybe its just not working right now. I'll quote your post to see if it works for me.

Guess not. Maybe none of the HTMl is working. *tests html* Huh, guess it works. Well, whatever.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-10 10:55:05 pm
I will have a reply tomorrow afternoon with some new evidence (nothing major, just supporting evidence).
RT-55J
2006-04-10 11:04:44 pm
Armor Guardian
Superion
2006-04-10 11:08:34 pm
Red Scarlet
2006-04-11 04:17:28 am
I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)
Some people don't seem to realize that newer information from manuals takes over/overrides older information from previous manuals.

If you're still going to use Metroid 1's "history", you may as well say that ZM is the first mission Samus had after her sex change (as it states Samus is a "he" in Metroid 1's manual).
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 10:14:44 am
Quote from Red Scarlet:
Some people don't seem to realize that newer information from manuals takes over/overrides older information from previous manuals.

If you're still going to use Metroid 1's "history", you may as well say that ZM is the first mission Samus had after her sex change (as it states Samus is a "he" in Metroid 1's manual).


Yes, but the Zero Mission manual only features an updated version of Metroid's prologue. That prologue does not lead into Zero Mission. Also, that quote of the Metroid manual illustrates the rumors about Samus' past. It was never intended to be accurate information. It was only used so that people would be surprised at the ending. This was updated to read that Samus' true identity remained a mystery. This was done to show that no one knew her true identity, as in the Metroid version, but without confusing people who already know that Samus is a woman.

Quote from Kejardon:
<-- Still arguing the same way as Dai, except when OOC.


*Looks over Kejardon’s post* Still no evidence to refute mine. I claim victory over his argument.

Quote from Kejardon:
Metroid is the first mission in the context of the game series. Nintendo called it the first mission on purpose. You simply refuse to admit the truth.


Fine, NOA called it the first mission because they were referring to it as the first game in that description, and they also said that it was very different from Zero Mission and that Zero Mission was not a remake. You are still proved wrong by the e-mail.
All of the other “first mission” references were to storyline, which is why there are also quotes like “first legendary adventure” and “first adventure as a bounty hunter”.

Quote from Kejardon:
An expansion enlarges the original. Zero Mission would not enlarge the NES Metroid as a prequel because the events take place long before Metroid does. It has to be directly connected to the NES Metroid's storyline to be an expansion.


It does enlarge the original by adding more to the backstory. It is connected through storyline because of all the areas, characters, and backstory surrounding Zebes and Samus.

Quote from Kejardon:
No you haven't. You have proven it doesn't fit your theory.


It is either or mistake, or as you said a reference to the first game. We do agree on one thing here, that Zero Mission is compared to Metroid in that description. In either case the description proves you incorrect because it says that while they both take place in the same areas, they are different adventures.
This is under the assumption that this canon information.

Quote from Kejardon:
'Necessarily' means 'unconditionally'.
'Not necessarily' means 'conditionally'.


You do not know the correct definitions of words.

Unconditional

adjective 

Definitions:

with no conditions or limitations: complete or guaranteed, with no conditions, limitations, or provisos attached
unconditional love


Conditional

adjective 

Definitions:
 
1. dependent on something else being done: describes something that will be done or will happen only if and when another thing is done or happens

2. grammar stating condition or limitation: describes a clause, conjunction, verb form, or sentence that expresses a condition or limitation

3. mathematics true only for certain mathematical values: true only for some values of one or more variables in a mathematical equation

4. mathematics describes series of numbers: describes a convergent series of numbers that becomes a divergent series when its terms are converted to their absolute values

Perhaps now you do. “Necessarily” means in every case or following as a result of other things. That has little or nothing to do with conditions.

Quote from Kejardon:
'Not necessarily a remaking of the backstory' means 'conditionally a remaking of the backstory'.


That is not what I means at all, as I showed you with the above definitions. “Not necessarily” means that something is not. It does not mean that something is but has certain conditions. You are making up your own definitions.

Quote from Kejardon:
There's nothing about 'necessarily' that says other things suggest it's true. 'Necessarily' is a statement of the requirement of something.


I said that about “not necessarily”. That statement means that something is not what other things suggest it is. Applied to this issue, Sakamoto said that Zero Mission is not a remake of backstory just because gameplay was remade.

Quote from Samu-san:
Look, it's a freakin' GAME. I frankly could care less if it was a remake or not. Not all games have to be exactly like to original. Besides, not everyone will memorize the layout of any certain game. And besides, how can there be two Mother Brains, and 2 of each Kraid and Ridley's?


Right, because Super Metroid did not present us with a new Kraid, Ridley, or Mother Brain.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
To be fair, you cannot say that the bombs are in a different place because the room before the bombs looks different.


I am not. Remember that two rooms before the Bombs actually moves upward and then to the left. This means that they are in a different location.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
The only real item that's in metroid but not in ZM is the Ice Beam in Brinstar, however, the Ice Beam is still in the correct place as there was an Ice Beam in Norfair in Metroid as well, they simply chose to not have the same upgrade at multiple locations in ZM.

For Super, the only item that's really in the same place as it was in Metroid is the Morph Ball. There are also some expansion that are in the same places, but that can easily be attributed to it being on the same planet.


I think the same goes for Zero Mission. It is on the same planet but the areas are different or new.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
Several items were added to Zero Mission, Speed Booster, Super Missiles, Plasma, Space Jump, Gravity suit and Power Grip.


So what? The same applies to Super Metroid.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
The ones that come after the suitless sequence don't really count as you never got to this point in Metroid. The addition of the unknown items are arguable seeing as they don't activate until after Mother Brain and could've easily been left out of Samus's first/the Pirates telling of Metroid as they never served any purpose in the story because it only goes to the defeat of mother brain.


You need those items to activate the blocks that keep Samus from accessing other areas. If this were Metroid, then those items would not have made a difference to the storyline before the battle with Mother Brain.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
I believe these extra items were added to enhance gameplay and make make the gameplay seem more similar to the later Metroids, which have far cleaner physics among other things.


Couldn’t Super Metroid be seen the same way?
Tahngarthor
2006-04-11 10:20:39 am
Bangaa Bishop
Quote:
Yes, but the Zero Mission manual only features an updated version of Metroid's prologue. That prologue does not lead into Zero Mission. Also, that quote of the Metroid manual illustrates the rumors about Samus' past. It was never intended to be accurate information. It was only used so that people would be surprised at the ending. This was updated to read that Samus' true identity remained a mystery. This was done to show that no one knew her true identity, as in the Metroid version, but without confusing people who already know that Samus is a woman.  A good chunk of your argument rides on this interpretation of the NES metroid manual, and its nothing more than an interpretation which you are assuming to be the correct one. Well for the umpteenth time, you cant assume that and call it fact!

This is a load of crap and you know it. You said it before, we didnt believe you then, we don't believe you now. The he vs she thing is a glitch in the manual (our OPINION!) not a tactic to hide her true identity (your OPINION!) Please stop stating it as an absolute fact.

Quote:
It is the first mission and Metroid is not.


You STILL have no proof that Metroid I is not "Her first mission AS AN INTERGALACTIC BOUNTY HUNTER." She demonstrated in Metroid Fusion that she TOOK ORDERS from a guy named Adam in the Federation. She could have been a military person in the federation doing missions before she became "AN INTERGALACTIC BOUNTY HUNTER." in the commercial.  So, even if the game manual is not glitched or flawed anyway, that information + yours still does not prove that Metroid I and ZM are not the same "mission." You have proved nothing.[/quote]
Kejardon
2006-04-11 04:10:47 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
joy, my entire post has been ignored. And for some reason you assigned a quote to me that I didn't even say.

Dai Grepher's argument:
The evidence supports me and therefor you can not be right if you do not agree with me.
Dai Grepher's currently ignored subjects:
A literal interpretation is still an interpretation, and is not necessarily what is intended by a statement. There can also be more than one literal interpretation of a statement.
Evidence can support more than one viewpoint. Because a phrase can be interpreted one way does not mean it can not be interpreted any other way.
The remake viewpoint accomodates all the evidence perfectly. The main point is that 'First something' is usually an intentional reference to Metroid I, as evidenced in the product description.
Dai Grepher's blatant biases:
Nintendo is literal because. They would never exagerate or dramaticize anything. They would never dare change anything in a game for any reason, except for the meaning of words (but the words are still the same). They are perfect and infallible while supporting my theory. They are mistaken when what they say fits your theory perfectly.

Current quote from Dai Grepher to laugh at:
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Also, the intro [of Super Metroid] never refers to Metroid directly nor does it depict anything from Metroid.


::edit:: I figure I better directly respond to this now, even though it's covered in my points above.
Quote from Dai Grepher:
So as you can see by this e-mail the Zero Mission commercial is official and was made from official information from Nintendo. There is no arguing against it. Zero Mission is Samus’ first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter, and Metroid is not! That makes Zero Mission a prequel to Metroid.

There's no need to argue against the evidence. There is a need to argue against your interpretation of the evidence. 'First adventure' is still a reference to Metroid I.
The commercial does nothing to disprove the remake theory.
Prime Hunter
2006-04-11 04:14:47 pm
Quote from Prime Hunter:
Quote from Supuh:
A cave can be laying infront of another on the same level without touching another. It's called a third dimension, even though the game is two-dimentional, it takes place in a world which has 3.

Exactly: There can be cases of having a 2D map in a 3D world, and the Metroid series has an example: Metroid II. Think about how the map is setup. It overlaps itself numerous times, but the game is still a 2D game.


Now, for a new question: Why would the NES Metroid's prologue and the ZM Prologue be nearly identical if it wasn't supposed to be the same game? The ZM manual shows us that the NES Metroid is unlockable: If the ZM prologue was meant for that unlocked game, why not say so? IF the prologue is supposed to be an updated one for Metroid, why would it not even mention that Samus was on Zebes before, (Zero Mission) especially since the manual was designed for Zero Mission in the first place?

Besides, can you think of ANY other game that includes ITSELF in its own prologue, before the events of the game?


I'm assuming you missed this, since it was back a few pages.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 04:50:40 pm
The forum smashed my reply into a short post. That is what caused Kejardon to be misquoted and for many counter points to be lost. I will reply again in numerous short posts. I edited the above post to be correct.

Quote from Dr. Trence:
Intro of Super Metroid: "I first batteled the metroids on planet zebes. It was there that i foiled the plans of the space pirate leader mother brain to use the creatures to attack galactic civilization..." This is referring to her first mission fighting the mother brain, which is in Metroid.


I know what that says, but nowhere does it say that it is referring to Metroid, and neither does Metroid say that it was Samus’ first mission fighting the Mother Brain.

Quote from Dr. Trence:
Nope. The space pirates remade a new tourain because samus destroyed the original in the first Metroid.


The theory explains that destroyed Tourian as the one from Zero Mission though.

Quote from Dr. Trence:
You are defenitly screwing up the story-line now. How do you expect the devolpers making two games into one? If they made samus first go to SR388, then that would easily mess up the time-line.


Metroid was intended to come after her SR388 mission. The NES could not support the storyline though, so it was remade on the SNES.

Quote from Dr. Trence:
Nope. ROS first features the baby metroid she finds, then the story-lin carries on to Super Metroid when ridley steals the hatchling, thus not making it a remake of metroid, and making it a sequel to ROS.


What if Metroid was intended to come after Return of Samus though?

Quote from Dr. Trence:
Why do you think that all this all had to do with how the developers made it? It sounds like youre saying they didnt want to add any story-line to it and just make it how it sounds. All of this has to do with part of the story-line, not how the developers randomly made it look like.


I say that the developers remade Metroid to be like Super Metroid because I want you to know how it sounds to me when people say the developers remade Metroid to be like Zero Mission. Neither claim has evidence to support the idea that the developers simply neglected to make a consistent remake for their respective theory.

Quote from Supuh:
caverns may overlap, we're not living in a world of 2 dimensions. A cave can be laying infront of another on the same level without touching another. It's called a third dimension, even though the game is two-dimentional, it takes place in a world which has 3.


Super Metroid had a long tube cutting through Maridia, and Zero Mission had a long tunnel running behind the elevator leading down to Ridley. If this shaft ran through Tourian, a similar path would have been visible.

The second point also stands. Tourian cannot fit between Brinstar’s upper and lower levels.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
ZM sure looks like a redesigned metroid to me! All you have to do is play the game to see this. forget all your "evidence" and facts. You're playing a redesigned metroid. Redesigned, and expanded. We may know the developer's logic and thinking, but one things clear: The game's close enough to be a "redesign", and therefore a remake.


With that logic, Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid.

Quote from Dragonfangs:
I love how everyone thinks Dai is serious about Super being a remake of Metroid.


Some people see the point.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
OK, so explain games like:
- Super Mario Kart
- Super Mario RPG
- Super Smash Bros.
None of these games have ANY previous versions of themselves, only sequels. Yes, the Mario ones are part of the Mario series, but there was no previous Kart or RPG game with Mario in it.


No, but he is called a Super Mario Brother. That is why the games have that title for that series. “Super” indicates that Mario and Luigi are not ordinary, but rather better than average. Super Metroid is a better than average Metroid. Zero Mission on the other hand implies no such advancement. Now, Metroid Advanced on the other hand would have, just as Super Mario Advanced did for that series’ remakes.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Now, for a new question: Why would the NES Metroid's prologue and the ZM Prologue be nearly identical if it wasn't supposed to be the same game?


Metroid II copied parts of the Metroid prologue as well. Being nearly identical means that it is not identical. Zero Mission uses that Metroid prologue as a basis for what it precedes, as Metroid II uses it as a basis for what it follows.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
The ZM manual shows us that the NES Metroid is unlockable: If the ZM prologue was meant for that unlocked game, why not say so? IF the prologue is supposed to be the one for Metroid, why would it not even mention that Samus was on Zebes before, (Zero Mission) especially since the manual was designed for Zero Mission in the first place?


Questions better suited for Nintendo. To people that know the series, that story has belonged to Metroid since 1986. To those just picking up a Metroid game for the first time, the reference to prior missions along with the reference to Zero Mission being the first mission is enough to place the game before the story told in the manual. I do not know why Nintendo would not then print the Zero Mission prologue in the manual as well. Perhaps to save money. In any case, the presentation of the Zero Mission prologue on Nintendo.com does make me think that Nintendo never meant for Metroid’s prologue to lead into Zero Mission, and the decision not to omit the “prior missions” reference confirms this.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Besides, can you think of ANY other game that includes ITSELF in its own prologue?


I do not know what you mean, but I do know of at least one game manual that includes a prologue that has little or nothing to do with the game it comes with. That game is God of War. That game is also a good example of present tense storyline that is stated before the presentation of past events, which is when the game takes place.

Quote from PiccoloCube:
what's next? MP2 intended to be a Zelda game? Fusion being part of the Wario Land series? the arm cannon being a time travel device?


I would answer “Zero Mission being a remake of Metroid” had it not been mentioned already.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Dai's idea of Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid is ENTIRELY logical because if, in remaking Metroid they did leave a gap that is referred to in Super Metroid's introduction (but isn't actually a story we've ever experienced), then MZM's being a prequel to Metroid, or, to Super Metroid which now take's Metroid's place in the plot (placed now after Metroid II, which refers also to a mission we've hypothetically not experienced, because remakes CAN change things), is entirely logical and makes sense because Nintendo needed to fill the plothole that is the first Mission on Zebes.
Obviously this is probably not the case, but his logic as for how this can also apply to our arguments for MZM being a remake because they change things, and how that idea (OUR IDEA) is rediculous... well, his logic follows completely in my mind.


Thank you for explaining that for me. I am glad you see the point I am trying to make.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Though, I do still believe in the idea, simply because I can't see that unless Super Metroid is indeed a remake of Metroid 1, how MZM can be a prequel. If SM was a remake of Metroid, then I'd believe the prequel argument, because I cannot believe in there being three missions taking place on Zebes.


What do you see as being impossible with the prequel timeline? Is it just the idea of three missions taking place on Zebes?

Quote from ajbolt89:
So his argument is like this:

M1->MII->SM
IF SM is a remake of M1: Replace Metroid 1 with SM on the timeline.
SM->MII->??
There's obviously a problem, as explained away by Dai's applying our own reasoning, that Remakes Change Things. In this case, the thing changed is SM's location on the Metroid timeline, to be after Metroid II. So:
??->MII->SM
Super Metroid, though, refers to a mission we've never experienced, as there's no longer any Metroid 1 (again, applying our own logic). So, with the idea of MZM being NOT a remake of Metroid 1, but rather simply a different story, it can then fill the place of the mission referred to in Super Metroid's intro:
MZM->MII->SM
So it takes the place Metroid 1 used to have, when it applied to the storyline, and fills it. There's no longer any gap.

God.
That's so awesome.
I almost want to believe that SM is a remake of M1 now, because that lets me accept that MZM might be a prequel, because M1 was already remade.


That is a correct description of my hypothetical timeline. Very good.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Granted, I can't, because I still see way too many similarities between MZM and Metroid 1, but uh. Well.

Dai's got a good point.


And of course the main point: Can the differences in Super Metroid be seen as remade elements? Yes. However, the game storyline and other facts such as inconsistencies show us that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid. Why then is it logical to use these facts when placing Super Metroid but not when placing Zero Mission? Is it because we all agree that Super Metroid is a sequel to Metroid, where with Zero Mission we have different opinions? If so, then perhaps we should end the debate. Neither side would then be convinced unless Nintendo were to make an official statement, which might never come.

Quote from Vertigo:
Yes, it does make sense, but I do find it funny how changes in the game for SM to Metroid can be dismissed as decisions to make the game better, but the same thing can't apply to Metroid and MZM. However I understand that Dai is just speaking hypothetically like I was when I said that MZM is a sequel to Metroid (although I was joking and didn't expect to be taken seriously)


I do not think that is the case for either argument.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
I'm still not getting this here. How can SM's prolouge include information about events we know occured in specific games that came before it, and call it a remake of one of those games?


It is hypothetical, so I will not go into detail about the logic behind it. The main point is that the logic that the remake side uses to explain why Zero Mission is a remake can also be applied to Super Metroid.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 04:51:56 pm
Quote from Chanoire:
However, degree and scale are still relevant. Things rarely are as absolute and binary as "if it's not A it must be B". Sure, one could argue that if it's acceptable to add material like Imago and the post-MB section and still call it a remake then it's acceptable to add Phantoon and Draygon and whatnot and call SM a remake...at one resolution. At a different one, the meat of ZM's additions and changes are after the MB part only.


I disagree. The part after Mother Brain is only 25% of the game, if that. That portion also does not feature a strong connection to the past areas, except to go back and gather items.

Quote from Chanoire:
M1: fight two sub-bosses to open the path to the third boss, escape. ZM: fight two sub-bosses to open the path to the third boss, escape, go through one more area and fight one more boss, escape again. SM: fight four sub-bosses to open the path to the last, escape. You could throw in blowing up the planet to make the point that there will be no more adventures on Zebes and therefore SM is the last if you want.

Why would I choose that level of resolution rather than Dai's pixel-point one? Several reasons. One, the number of bosses to defeat to get to Tourian is easily quantifiable. (Yes, I know M1's statues can be bypassed, but their number is unambiguous.) Two, several minibosses can be skipped, making their number irrelevant to getting into Tourian.


Zero Mission’s mini-bosses can only be skipped using items not found in Metroid though. Zero Mission’s “added” mini-bosses could be on the same level as Super Metroid’s “added” bosses because if you do skip them in Zero Mission you must still do so using “added” items, and thus it is still on the same level as an expansion.

Quote from Chanoire:
Three, SM itself, in-game, does not use the level of resolution that Dai is calling significant. The recap of Metroid 1 isn't with NES graphics, it's with the SM sprites and even uses her actual in-game missiles. Likewise with M2. If they weren't concerned with being precisely accurate to the games they are recapping at the time of making SM, I see no reason why they'd change this policy and decide that suddenly it mattered so much to consider M1's layout and graphics to be strictly literal and unchangeable that they'd come up with new graphics for ZM in order to indicate it's a different game.


They did not have to match outdated graphics with Zero Mission as they did with Super Metroid though. Super Metroid had to work with 8 bit games. Zero Mission merely had to match the graphics on the Super Nintendo, and I am referring to the destroyed Tourian found in Super Metroid. The differences between Super Metroid and Metroid can be explained by updated graphics, but the GBA could have easily copied what the SNES displayed for the destroyed Tourian. The GBA actually displays less detailed graphics than the SNES and in some areas than the NES. This is not the GBA’s fault though. This is based on the art style used. Plus, Super Metroid was not meant to be a remake of anything, where as the argument with Zero Mission is that it was intended to be a remake. Therefore consistency would have to be an important aspect of that game.

Quote from Chanoire:
Are the Etecoons and Dachoras in Fusion exact copies of the sprites in SM? Is there any reason to consider those on the BSL different members of the species when their number matches up and Samus recognizes them?


I never claimed that Zero Mission’s should have copied the sprites exactly, just that it should be similar. The graphics in Zero Mission are actually the complete opposite from what it should depict as a remake.
There is also reason to believe that the Dachoras and Etecoons are different. There is a baby Dachoras, and while there was an egg in Super Metroid, it is unlikely that the mother was able to carry it. However, some other animal may have done this, though it was not shown in the escape sequence. It is also possible that the mother had a new baby on the B.S.L. The Etecoons are also blue in Fusion, but they were green in Super Metroid. Perhaps the Etecoons can change color, but it is also possible that they are new creatures of the same species. The ones from Super Metroid had a space ship in which they escaped Zebes with. Why then would they be on the B.S.L.?
I am not saying that they are the same or are different. I am just saying that there is no evidence either way, and that is why I do not claim one thing or the other. Also, Samus does not recognize them as the same ones that helped her on Zebes, rather as the species that helped her.

Quote from Chanoire:
If ZM is treated as an independent game and not an update of M1, then why does she have the abilities the Etecoons and Dachoras "helped [her] unlock..which [she] didn't know she had?" That comment makes sense in the context of M1 and M2 coming before Super, since she didn't have those capabilities in those games. It doesn't make sense in the context of her having them in ZM -- but even less does it make sense to take ZM and M1 so literally as to be separate, sequential games and give the earlier one abilities she didn't know she had.


This has been brought up in a few other forums already. The quote is that they helped her unleash abilities that she did not know she had. That only implies that Samus did not know she had those abilities in Super Metroid. As we all know, Samus loses certain abilities in Metroid Prime, Metroid II, Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. The statement only indicates that Samus did not know that recovering the Speedboost meant that she also had the Shine Spark. Another example is the Spring Ball. In Zero Mission this was obtained within the same item as the High Jump. In other games this was lost and not recovered with the High Jump. The Wave Beam/Ice Beam combination is another example. The wall jump could be explained by the possibility that Samus could not pull it off in Metroid II. Then she recovered it naturally through practice in Super Metroid.

Quote from Chanoire:
1) Negative "proof" isn't. Saying there's no proof that A =/= B does not prove that A = B.


I did not say that evidence of absence was the absence of evidence. This was not even implied in the discussion.

Quote from Chanoire:
2) Circular logic doesn't work either. I read that second set as saying that A proves B because B proves A, where A = "Nintendo made a mistake" and B = "Metroid is not the first mission."


Also incorrect. C = manual quote of Metroid having prior missions. C proves A and B.

Quote from Chanoire:
And somewhere back beyond the topic review scope there was a comment from Dai to the effect that such-and-such would be an out-of-game explanation, and what's the fun in that? That one sentence shows the problem viewpoint to me. The in-game attempt is to make all the games separate missions, because if you're treating them as "real" then time has to run sequentially rather than parallel. But you're trying to make the out-of-game stuff fit the in-game stuff by playing with semantics.


No, the out of game information supports the in-game explanations, and this is because my in-game explanations are all based on the out of game facts made by Nintendo, such as the commercial for example. The commercial states that it is her first mission as a bounty hunter. Fact. Metroid is not her first mission as a bouny hunter. Fact. Two out of game references. The in-game explanation is that one mission is a prequel to the other. An in-game explanation that is based on facts. The remake theory however explains the in-game facts with out of game excuses (i.e. the developers did not regard consistency, which is not a fact).

Quote from Chanoire:
It doesn't work that way. Now, I admit I'm not a huge fan of that approach anyway; I have no trouble seeing Zeldas 1, 3, and 5 as being all the same story and have no need to put them in order. But the Zelda series as a whole illustrates how developers don't really care that much about consistency even when some effort is made to connect the stories, since obviously people have divergent opinions on what the order is. And that with a series where an official timeline really is claimed to exist. With no clear statement stating that ZM and M1 are separate there just isn't a reason to assume that the minor stuff in them and the out-of-game language used are significant enough to show they are.


Miyamoto or Aonuma claimed that Zelda has a timeline and there is a document at Nintendo explaining it. Anyway, I see this the same way, but I come to a different conclusion. There is no evidence that these are the same mission. Therefore there is no reason to see these as the same game.

Quote from Kejardon:
I realize all the above has nothing to do with Zero Mission specifically. But it is very relevant to this debate. I see huge gaping holes in Dai Grepher's logic because my instinct points my thoughts to them.


Point out these holes then.

Quote from Kejardon:
And just as a side note (feel free to debate this point), Super Metroid clearly cannot be a remake of Metroid I. Unless you accept Dai Grepher's logic to begin with.


You mean your logic. The entire Super Metroid remake argument is based on disregarding inconsistencies and game facts in favor of the “instinct” that remakes change things.

Quote from Kejardon:
Super Metroid has an intro in it. That introduction addresses Metroid I. It can't address it as 'the NES Metroid', but it is undeniably clear to anyone playing it 5 years ago that is what was intended. It then introduces itself as a future event, after the NES Metroid.


This has been explained. Remakes rewrite storylines as well. Also, the intro never refers to Metroid directly nor does it depict anything from Metroid.

Quote from Kejardon:
The only way it could be a remake of the original metroid is if Zero Mission rewrites Super Metroid's storyline. But wait! According to Dai Grepher, it has to rewrite Super Metroid's storyline, because the reference to the original metroid is now referring to Zero Mission instead.


How do you rationalize that? Zero Mission has nothing to do with Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid. Zero Mission is merely what the Super Metroid intro is referring to.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 04:53:52 pm
Quote from Tremere98:
IIRC, Super Castlevania 4 replaces the original Castlevania canon-wise.


Right, and it was called “Super Castlevania”, which just goes to show that remakes have “super” in the title. Thus, Super Metroid is quite obviously a remake (not really).

Quote from Tahngarthor:
just drop the word missiion, and call it metroid 0. then you can still call the others, 1 2 and 3.


0 comes before 1 in numerical sequence. I see a pattern here.

Quote from nn12000:
I still don't see how ZM is a prequal. Although it does tell us how the Wrecked ship in SM got there.


Sakamoto said that the Mother Ship is not the Wrecked Ship. Also, the Mother Ship looks nothing like the Wrecked Ship. It isn’t even the same color. That is just another fan theory.

Quote from nn12000:
Also, someone should take a screen shot of the opening paragraph and post it. IIRC, it says "I shall finally retell the story of my so-called "Zero Mission". The physical gameplay is almost identical to that of Metroid 1, only not so many tall verticle corridors, going on forever and ever.


That does not make Zero Mission a remake of the entire game.

Quote from nn12000:
I also believe reading somewhere that Zero Mission continues the original Metroid's storyline, as it does, very well I might add.

What I really want to know is how does the game itself prove to be a prequal and not a sequal.


It is the first mission and Metroid is not.

Quote from primetime:
"...had completed numerous missions..." You have no proof that MZM was one of those missions. Also, that statement in NO way proves MZM to be the first mission.


The box and commercial state that Zero Mission is the first mission. Since Metroid has missions before it, that makes Zero Mission a prequel as the first of those missions.

Quote from rekameohs:
Actually, MZM mentions that she has completed numerous missions as well. Page 7 of the MZM Manual wrote:
Considered the greatest of all the bounty hunters, Samus had successfully completed numerous missions that others had thought impossible.

See, even here the original and MZM are the same. If you look at the prologue, the story is almost exactly the same. Why would Nintendo make the story so similar if they wanted it to be a different story? Looking at the into of the actual game's manual is much better than looking at a commercial or such. And, as the people have mentioned before, they changed the layout of the game because they didn't want it the exact same game, they wanted to make a little more challenge for the players.


That prologue goes to Metroid though, not Zero Mission. Look at the Metroid manual for proof of that.
If this were intended to be Zero Mission’s prologue then they would not have mentioned the prior missions since Zero Mission is said to be the first, and they would not have a different prologue for Zero Mission posted on Nintendo.com.

Quote from primetime:
Wait. but if it says the MZM is Samus' first mission, then later says that she's had numerous other missions, don't those contradict with each other? I'm confused...


They do contradict if Zero Mission is a remake, but not if it is a prequel.

Quote from Superion:
It could mean it is her first mission working for the Space Federation and againts Metroids. I'm sure she had numerous missions doing numerous things for numerous people in her bounty hunter career. But I'm just speculating, ther eis nothing to suppport this.


The commercial clarifies. “Her first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter.” She was the greatest of all the bounty hunters by the time Metroid took place. Undeniable proof that the game is a prequel.

By the way, about what Lazylen said, I have come back with more evidence. This time I have evidence from a Nintendo of America representative that proves the Zero Mission commercial is official and was made from correct and canon information from Nintendo. Read it from bottom to top for message sequence.

MESSAGE:

[I]Hello again,

Thanks for providing additional information.  I am not sure who
actually made the commercial, but it is official (i.e. the game information
came directly from Nintendo).

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Nintendo of America Inc.
Christie Hamilton

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
-----------------


From: (My name) <My>
Posted At: 17:54:14.000 04/07/2006
Posted To: Nintendo <nintendo>
Subject: Re: Re : Webform: Other Non-Product Related > None Selected

That particular commercial states the following:
"...Metroid: Zero Mission. Her (Samus') first
adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter."
Since it states that it is the main character's first
adventure as a bounty hunter it makes a very
definitive storyline reference that places that video
game (Zero Mission) into a specific spot in the
Metroid series' timeline. It is also consistent with
other Nintendo media stating that the game is the
story of Samus' first mission. I was wondering if that
reference was canon and official information approved
by Nintendo or if it was just advertising hype made by
a marketing company outside of Nintendo.
Basically, I wanted to know if I could apply what the
commercial said to the series' overall storyline.

--- Nintendo <nintendo> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for your e-mail.  Before I attempt to
> answer your question, I would like to ask why you
> have asked your question regarding the Nintendo
> commercial you saw.
>
> Please respond back with additional information.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Nintendo of America Inc.
> Christie Hamilton
>
> Message(#6851-000494-6682\4946682)
>
>  ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>  -----------------
>
>
>  From: (My E-mail)
>  Posted At: 00:55:25.000 04/07/2006
>  Posted To: Nintendo <nintendo>
>  Subject: Webform: Other Non-Product Related > None
> Selected
>
> I have some questions about a Nintendo commercial.
> It can be seen here:
>
http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/8fc2b41a-8547-4c17-88cd-cfc5c7ae81a2.mov
> I was wondering if it is official. Did Nintendo make
> this commercial or was it done through an
> advertising company? If it was done through another
> company, did Nintendo still give them all of the
> information to advertise?
> Thanks.

------------------------
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 05:16:10 pm
Sorry for all the posts, but it is because the forum smashed my reply into a short jumble.

Other points:

Quote from Someone:
A good chunk of your argument rides on this interpretation of the NES metroid manual, and its nothing more than an interpretation which you are assuming to be the correct one. Well for the umpteenth time, you cant assume that and call it fact!


Metroid Manual: "If You Destroy The Mother Brain...
If you manage to destroy the last enemy, Mother Brain, wait for a message to flash across the screen a second later. Something big is in store for you! We can't disclose it here, be we can tell you that the game is not over yet!
NOTE: The total time you take to complete your mission determines the final outcome."

Nintendo made this comment so that people would try for the best ending, and thus be surprised to find that Samus is a woman. So that proves that the Metroid manual was and is accurate, and that the male cyborg reference was just a rumor in the Metroid universe and also used to help surprise players at the end of the game.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
This is a load of crap and you know it. You said it before, we didnt believe you then, we don't believe you now. The he vs she thing is a glitch in the manual (our OPINION!) not a tactic to hide her true identity (your OPINION!) Please stop stating it as an absolute fact.


It is a fact though, not just my opinion.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
You STILL have no proof that Metroid I is not "Her first mission AS AN INTERGALACTIC BOUNTY HUNTER." She demonstrated in Metroid Fusion that she TOOK ORDERS from a guy named Adam in the Federation. She could have been a military person in the federation doing missions before she became "AN INTERGALACTIC BOUNTY HUNTER." in the commercial. So, even if the game manual is not glitched or flawed anyway, that information + yours still does not prove that Metroid I and ZM are not the same "mission." You have proved nothing.


The manual states that Samus was the best Space Hunter even before Metroid took place. That is proof that she was an intergalactic bounty hunter before Metroid, and that she was the best because of her previous missions. Also, taking orders from Adam does not mean that she was in the Federation. From where are you getting that?

Quote from Kejardon:
There's no need to argue against the evidence. There is a need to argue against your interpretation of the evidence. 'First adventure' is still a reference to Metroid I.
The commercial does nothing to disprove the remake theory.


"First adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter" is a reference to storyline. Samus had numerous intergalactic bounty hunts before Metroid took place. Thus, Zero Mission is not Metroid but rather a prequel to Metroid. Please attempt to refute this, or else I must claim total victory over your argument.
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-11 05:38:31 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from Dai Grepher:
The manual states that Samus was the best Space Hunter even before Metroid took place. That is proof that she was an intergalactic bounty hunter before Metroid, and that she was the best because of her previous missions. Also, taking orders from Adam does not mean that she was in the Federation. From where are you getting that?


Samus describes in Fusion an old Federation CO, or Commanding Officer.  In order to have a CO you have to be in the military.  If Samus was hired as a bounty hunter by someone who happened to be a military officer, that person would be thought of as a client, not a CO. 

Quote:
"First adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter" is a reference to storyline. Samus had numerous intergalactic bounty hunts before Metroid took place. Thus, Zero Mission is not Metroid but rather a prequel to Metroid. Please attempt to refute this, or else I must claim total victory over your argument.


You can't claim jack.  Only way you win is if the other person concedes.
spineshark
2006-04-11 05:50:22 pm
in the name of justice!
Go ahead and claim victory.  I will too.  Maybe Kejardon will, though I won't speak for him, and this thread can rest in peace.

Quote:
The wall jump could be explained by the possibility that Samus could not pull it off in Metroid II.

You nullified this argument earlier with your "the player cannot aim her cannon diagonally, [it's not a limitation on Samus herself]" sorry.

Quote:
Metroid was intended to come after her SR388 mission.

Where did that come from?

Quote:
This has been explained. Remakes rewrite storylines as well.

So why is it so impossible that they decided, instead of Samus having a bunch of missions before blasting Mother's Brains out, that it was now her first mission?

Lastly, although Super is in many ways a remake, I'd like to point out that all of its soundtrack was brand new...while Zero Mission reused every "melody" from the original game, as far as I know.  Obviously, this isn't "proof" but I feel that, along with the overall layout of the map (which is very, very similar, particularly in Brinstar) it shows that there's meant to be very direct similarities.

Incidentally, while we're on Castlevania, the non-numbered NES game was a remake as well...
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 06:07:05 pm
Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Samus describes in Fusion an old Federation CO, or Commanding Officer. In order to have a CO you have to be in the military. If Samus was hired as a bounty hunter by someone who happened to be a military officer, that person would be thought of as a client, not a CO.


Except that this is not the case in the Metroid series. Samus was a bounty hunter in Metroid Fusion, and yet she reported to a CO, the ship's computer. Metroid's manual states that the Federation called together bounty hunters, so perhaps doing work for the Federation is still considered bounty hunting. Bounty hunting in real life is the same way. You hunt criminals and turn them over to the police for rewards. That does not make you a Police Officer.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:
You can't claim jack. Only way you win is if the other person concedes.


He said I could claim anything I wanted. Also, I suspect that he will concede once he sees that he cannot refute the facts.

Quote from Spine Shark:
You nullified this argument earlier with your "the player cannot aim her cannon diagonally, [it's not a limitation on Samus herself]" sorry.


That is not the same case though. The aim feature had no button assigned to it. That was a gameplay issue. The wall jump however has no button assignment, rather a technique. It is not possible to perform the technique in that game, which indicates that the technique is not available. I hope you are not still going to compare this to what angle Samus can raise her arm canon to. Even if this is also blamed on the gameplay, it does not change the fact that Samus said that she did not know she had the ability. The fact that she does not in Metroid and Metroid II is justp roof that she lost it.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Where did that come from?


That was in reply to the hypothetical theory of Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid. It was a parody off of the argument that the designers intended for Zero Mission to be a remake of Metroid with expansions.

Quote from Spine Shark:
So why is it so impossible that they decided, instead of Samus having a bunch of missions before blasting Mother's Brains out, that it was now her first mission?


Well for one thing, the prologue still includes the reference to prior missions. If they wanted Metroid to be the first mission, then they would have omitted that in the revised copy.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Lastly, although Super is in many ways a remake, I'd like to point out that all of its soundtrack was brand new...while Zero Mission reused every "melody" from the original game, as far as I know. Obviously, this isn't "proof" but I feel that, along with the overall layout of the map (which is very, very similar, particularly in Brinstar) it shows that there's meant to be very direct similarities.


The different songs in Super Metroid are just examples of where they remade Metroid to be better than the original version of Metroid.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Incidentally, while we're on Castlevania, the non-numbered NES game was a remake as well...


What non-numbered NES game?
Chanoire
2006-04-11 06:50:46 pm
I'm a little puzzled why remakes are allowed to rewrite storylines and not geography myself. 

That whole bit about how it was all right for SM to update the graphics but not for ZM because the SNES showed more detail than the GBA doesn't make sense either.  If the developers could depict things from earlier-released games in a new manner in SM there's no reason that they couldn't similarly redo SM's geography in ZM.  Stating that there was no reason for them to do so because the GBA was not more powerful/detailed than the SNES is nonsensical.  Why make people who have played earlier games go through exactly the same layout, instead of giving them a new experience?  How much fun would it be to find everything in exactly the same place, fight exactly the same bosses, etc.?
Prime Hunter
2006-04-11 07:01:51 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
Now, for a new question: Why would the NES Metroid's prologue and the ZM Prologue be nearly identical if it wasn't supposed to be the same game?

Metroid II copied parts of the Metroid prologue as well. Being nearly identical means that it is not identical. Zero Mission uses that Metroid prologue as a basis for what it precedes, as Metroid II uses it as a basis for what it follows.

Yes, but unlike the ZM manual, which just restates the same information from the Metroid prologue, Metroid II expands itself to the events that happen afterwards before the game begins.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
The ZM manual shows us that the NES Metroid is unlockable: If the ZM prologue was meant for that unlocked game, why not say so? IF the prologue is supposed to be the one for Metroid, why would it not even mention that Samus was on Zebes before, (Zero Mission) especially since the manual was designed for Zero Mission in the first place?

Questions better suited for Nintendo. To people that know the series, that story has belonged to Metroid since 1986. To those just picking up a Metroid game for the first time, the reference to prior missions along with the reference to Zero Mission being the first mission is enough to place the game before the story told in the manual

Ok, so if that reference is there, WHY did all of us at Metroid2002 not notice it, especially if it's as easy to see as you say?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
I do not know why Nintendo would not then print the Zero Mission prologue in the manual as well.

It could be that the prologues are supposed to be the same... (IE, ZM = Metroid in terms of the Storyline)

Quote from Dai Grepher:
In any case, the presentation of the Zero Mission prologue on Nintendo.com does make me think that Nintendo never meant for Metroid’s prologue to lead into Zero Mission, and the decision not to omit the “prior missions” reference confirms this.

That's just your opinion, not a fact.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Prime Hunter:
Besides, can you think of ANY other game that includes ITSELF in its own prologue?

I do not know what you mean...

Basically, why would the revised METROID prologue be there, and not a brand new one for ZM that leads up to the game itself? In every prologue I've ever come across, none of them include the events that happen in the game itself (Which normally takes place after the prologue) in its own prologue.


On another note, there is a connection between the intro for Super and ZM that I feel needs to be noticed: (IN-GAME intros)

(Before I begin, realize that when I say FIRST VISIT it means the first time Samus goes there on a mission, not when she was raised by the Chozo.)

According to both of the IN-GAME Intros:
- ZM: "I shall finally tell the tale of my FIRST battle here..."
- Super: "I FIRST battled the Metroids on planet Zebes..."

Super clearly references Metroid, which was at the time the obvious choice for her first time on Zebes. I say this because Metroid was the ONLY other game that took place on Zebes at the time, which means it MUST be the game that is referenced in the Super intro. (Why else would they do this without explaining themselves for ten years, if they care so much about having the correct Storyline?)

Zero Mission comes along ten years after Super Metroid and says that we will finally hear the true story behind her FIRST time to Zebes, which according to Super is the FIRST time she encounters the Metroids.

Based on these facts, realize this:

According to Super's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = Metroid *
* 1st Battle With Metroids = Metroid *

According to ZM's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = ZM *

Based on Super's Intro, saying that First Battle With Metroids = First Visit to Zebes:
* First Battle with Metroids MUST = ZM *

So...
* Zero Mission MUST = Remake of Metroid *

All of this, of course, is not from the websites, manuals, or even interviews: This is IN-GAME-EVIDENCE, followed by common sense. (Refering to the fact that Super references METROID in the intro and not some other story we've never heard about.) This is why Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid and not a prequel.

Edit: I forgot to mention something important. If, according to the Prequel theory, ZM comes before Metroid, explain something to me.

As I explained, Super refers to Metroid as being her first encounter with Metroids. Yet, in ZM she faces off against them. So, how is there a previous mission on Zebes where she faces Metroids, but according to the IN-GAME intro for Super, (Which references Metroid) Metroid is her first enounter with them? This is a HUGE contradiction that CANNOT be explained by your Prequel theory.
spineshark
2006-04-11 07:07:09 pm
in the name of justice!
Bah, crap.  I learned of "Vampire Killer" from Wikipedia, and it was apparently released first, but...it used to say something dumb about remakes.  Sorry.

Anyway, by "non-numbered" I just meant "original" without using that word, since saying "the original...was a remake" is stupid.

Quote:
The different songs in Super Metroid are just examples of where they remade Metroid to be better than the original version of Metroid.

Thank you for ignoring my point.

Zero Mission plays a new arrangement of the same track from metroid 1 when you:
boot up the hardware with the cartridge inside
begin a game
get to start moving in brinstar
recover an item
enter certain rooms with items in m1/enter a save room in mzm
take the elevator from brinstar to norfair
take the elevator from norfair to ridley
take the elevator from brinstar to kraid
take the elevator from brinstar to tourian
enter mother brain's chamber
begin the escape sequence
complete the entire game

while super features versions of the start-up and item find tracks that's a little more different (from metroid than the ones in zm are), and account for 1% of the notes in the entire soundtrack.

but if you can't see my point, then i'm not going to bother with this.  to be honest, i'm kind of deficient when it comes to explaining certain things (like, apparently, this, and that other thing with "where"), so you'll have to make a little inference as to what i mean.  but i don't know how to spell it out better than that.
Kejardon
2006-04-11 07:21:49 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Back to Dai Grepher logic. Some idiocies more obvious than others.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
they also said that it was very different from Zero Mission and that Zero Mission was not a remake.

Nintendo often means 'port' when they say remake. They are reluctant to call ZM a remake because people might think 'Enhanced port' and decide it's not worth buying an NES game on the GBA.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
All of the other “first mission” references were to storyline...
"First adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter" is a reference to storyline.

This is obviously false. Nintendo is still referring to Metroid I in these quotes. You are wrong and I am right.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
It does enlarge the original by adding more to the backstory. It is connected through storyline because of all the areas, characters, and backstory surrounding Zebes and Samus.

That would make it only an enlargement of the Metroid series. The message stated it's an enlargement of the *NES* Metroid. Ergo, it must *directly* connect to the NES Metroid storyline. Not come several missions before it.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
It is either or mistake, or as you said a reference to the first game.

It is an intentional reference to the first game. Nintendo would not make such an obvious, stupid mistake.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
In either case the description proves you incorrect because it says that while they both take place in the same areas, they are different adventures.

Again, it's a reference to the game, not the storyline. You should read my posts more carefully so I don't have to explain the same point over and over.

Back to myself for the rest of the post.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
“Necessarily” means in every case...
“Not necessarily” means that something is not.


You forgot to add the definition of 'necessarily' in: “Not necessarily” means 'not in every case'. It implies it is true in some cases.
Seeing as it's defined according to how society uses it, it would be perfectly logical to have a poll asking if "Not necessarily" means "False in all cases" or "Depends on the case (Conditional)". I'd bet that "Depends on the case" will win by a large margin.
http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=135516

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Also, I suspect that he will concede once he sees that he cannot refute the facts.

I see that I cannot refute facts (facts being defined as indisputable truths). I can also see that there are no facts I need to refute. All the evidence supports my viewpoint that ZM is a remake.
It's funny that DG has to flat out refuse some of the evidence (referring to Metroid as the first mission) to have his theory work, yet accuses me of ignoring evidence when I have explained many times how all the evidence fits perfectly in my theory.
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-11 07:34:22 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Samus describes in Fusion an old Federation CO, or Commanding Officer. In order to have a CO you have to be in the military. If Samus was hired as a bounty hunter by someone who happened to be a military officer, that person would be thought of as a client, not a CO.


Except that this is not the case in the Metroid series. Samus was a bounty hunter in Metroid Fusion, and yet she reported to a CO, the ship's computer.


Samus only spoke of a CO when she referred to Adam's physical life and her interactions with him then.  She never referred to the computer Adam as a CO. 

Quote:
Metroid's manual states that the Federation called together bounty hunters, so perhaps doing work for the Federation is still considered bounty hunting.


Perhaps, and perhaps it's like in Empire Strikes Back where the Empire called together bounty hunters in an auxiliary capacity to the actual Imperial Fleet. 

Quote:
Bounty hunting in real life is the same way. You hunt criminals and turn them over to the police for rewards. That does not make you a Police Officer.


Right, and real life bounty hunters don't refer to police chiefs as bosses.  Similarly, Samus would not have referred to the old Adam as a CO unless she was under him in a military context.
Tahngarthor
2006-04-11 10:34:24 pm
Bangaa Bishop
Quote:
Tahngarthor wrote:
This is a load of crap and you know it. You said it before, we didnt believe you then, we don't believe you now. The he vs she thing is a glitch in the manual (our OPINION!) not a tactic to hide her true identity (your OPINION!) Please stop stating it as an absolute fact.


It is a fact though, not just my opinion.



For the 238789th time, your opinions are not facts.  Honestly, some of your arguments would be more convincing if you didnt state opinions and "evidence" as fact. There is no proof and no way to prove that what you think about the metroid manual (covering up her identity vs typo / error / glitch ) is fact. you might find one much much more believeable than the other but belief does not make fact. Few things in life are fact.  The biggest fallacy in all of your logic is pushing your views and opinions as absolute, unalienable facts, when many of these "facts" are indeed disputable. They're opinions or viewpoints unless there is absolutely no way to dispute them. I.e. it is impossible to dispute, using our math system, that 2+2 equals anything but 4; infinity + anything = infinity. These are facts. What you are posting are not facts.
Dai Grepher
2006-04-11 10:50:30 pm
Quote from Chanoire:
I'm a little puzzled why remakes are allowed to rewrite storylines and not geography myself.

That whole bit about how it was all right for SM to update the graphics but not for ZM because the SNES showed more detail than the GBA doesn't make sense either.


Updates and redesigns are two different things. Super Metroid updated a design to be a higher resolution. Zero Mission redesigned a design to look different. A true remake simply updates designs. It does not change them to be inconsistent with the original.

Quote from Chanoire:
If the developers could depict things from earlier-released games in a new manner in SM there's no reason that they couldn't similarly redo SM's geography in ZM.


You are confusing content with quality. Super Metroid made what was there look better. Zero Mission made what was there different.

Quote from Chanoire:
Stating that there was no reason for them to do so because the GBA was not more powerful/detailed than the SNES is nonsensical.


Actually, the GBA is just as powerful as the SNES, so they could have made the graphics look better or equal to Super Metroid. They did not because of the lazy comic book art style.

Quote from Chanoire:
Why make people who have played earlier games go through exactly the same layout, instead of giving them a new experience? How much fun would it be to find everything in exactly the same place, fight exactly the same bosses, etc.?


That is what many remake theorists claimed happened with Zero Mission. Anyway, I think Nintendo would make it similar enough because it would be a REMAKE. Look at the other remakes made by Nintendo. They are all the same except with a few added bonuses or edited storyline (i.e. Mario and Zelda).

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Yes, but unlike the ZM manual, which just restates the same information from the Metroid prologue, Metroid II expands itself to the events that happen afterwards before the game begins.


I think they should have done the same with Zero Mission, and I do not know why they did not. Maybe they did not know how to work it into the story. The Nintendo.com prologue shows that a new backstory exists for Zero Mission.
All I know for sure is that the Metroid prologue leads into Metroid and not Zero Mission.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Ok, so if that reference is there, WHY did all of us at Metroid2002 not notice it, especially if it's as easy to see as you say?


Maybe because you did not look for it? Maybe you simply took IGN's or some other review site's word for it. The fact is that many people thought of it as a prequel since it was released. So obviously some people were not observant enough.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
It could be that the prologues are supposed to be the same... (IE, ZM = Metroid in terms of the Storyline)


Then why do they call Zero Mission Samus' first mission and her first adventure as a bounty hunter? No, that cannot be it.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
That's just your opinion, not a fact.


That is why I said that is what I think.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Basically, why would the revised METROID prologue be there, and not a brand new one for ZM that leads up to the game itself? In every prologue I've ever come across, none of them include the events that happen in the game itself (Which normally takes place after the prologue) in its own prologue.


Maybe Nintendo thought that the prologue in the game was sufficient enough for Zero Mission itself, but the Metroid prologue was needed to place the game in the series.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
On another note, there is a connection between the intro for Super and ZM that I feel needs to be noticed: (IN-GAME intros)

(Before I begin, realize that when I say FIRST VISIT it means the first time Samus goes there on a mission, not when she was raised by the Chozo.)


Normally I would not see it that way, so thank you for setting that premise.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
According to both of the IN-GAME Intros:
- ZM: "I shall finally tell the tale of my FIRST battle here..."
- Super: "I FIRST battled the Metroids on planet Zebes..."

Super clearly references Metroid, which was at the time the obvious choice for her first time on Zebes.


That is not true. What, just because the word "first" is used in both games that means one references the other? Her first battle there and her first battling the Metroids there have nothing to do with each other. It is just coincidence that her first battle on Zebes was also her first battle with the Metroids. Had she not battled the Metroids in Zero Mission, the statements would have been just as true.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
I say this because Metroid was the ONLY other game that took place on Zebes at the time, which means it MUST be the game that is referenced in the Super intro. (Why else would they do this without explaining themselves for ten years, if they care so much about having the correct Storyline?)


When Super Metroid was first made, it was likely referring to Metroid because that was the only game. However, the quote never specifies Metroid. It merely leaves it to the player to fill in the blanks. When Zero Mission was released to be Samus' first battle with the Metroids, it did not contradict the statements because the statements in the Super Metroid intro never referred to Metroid in the first place. Neither did Metroid have any references to being Samus' first mission on Zebes or first battle with the Metroids.

"I first battled the Metroids on Zebes". True for Metroid then and true for Zero Mission now.

"It was there that I foiled the plans of the Space Pirate leader Mother Brain..." Also true for Metroid then and true for Metroid now.

Nothing is changed or contradicted because these statements were never worded to refer to Metroid specifically. We just assumed that it referred to Metroid back then because that was the only mission we knew about.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Zero Mission comes along ten years after Super Metroid and says that we will finally hear the true story behind her FIRST time to Zebes, which according to Super is the FIRST time she encounters the Metroids.


Like I said, that is not true. It never states that her first mission on Zebes is the first battle with the Metroids. Zero Mission could have had no Metroids at all and the statments would have been true. This is because the statements say, "I first battle the Metroids on Zebes", which does not refer to any first mission on Zebes and "It was there that..." which also does not refer to a first mission on Zebes.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Based on these facts, realize this:

According to Super's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = Metroid *
* 1st Battle With Metroids = Metroid *

According to ZM's Intro:
* First Visit to Zebes = ZM *

Based on Super's Intro, saying that First Battle With Metroids = First Visit to Zebes:
* First Battle with Metroids MUST = ZM *

So...
* Zero Mission MUST = Remake of Metroid *


Not even Stretch Armstrong could reach that far. First prove that the first "visit" or mission to Zebes was Metroid. Next, prove that Samus first battle with the Metroids was in Metroid. Do that, and the rest will fall into place. If that happens then I will agree with you. Like I said though, the statements do not even suggest what you are saying.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
All of this, of course, is not from the websites, manuals, or even interviews: This is IN-GAME-EVIDENCE, followed by common sense. (Refering to the fact that Super references METROID in the intro and not some other story we've never heard about.) This is why Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid and not a prequel.


I will stick to facts thank you.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
As I explained, Super refers to Metroid as being her first encounter with Metroids.


Wrong.

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Yet, in ZM she faces off against them. So, how is there a previous mission on Zebes where she faces Metroids, but according to the IN-GAME intro for Super, (Which references Metroid) Metroid is her first enounter with them? This is a HUGE contradiction that CANNOT be explained by your Prequel theory.


Metroid is not the first battle with the Metroids. WOW! I explained it.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Zero Mission plays a new arrangement of the same track from metroid 1 when you:
boot up the hardware with the cartridge inside


No, the opening sequence music is new. Also, the title screen music starts in a different set.

Quote from Spine Shark:
begin a game
get to start moving in brinstar
recover an item
enter certain rooms with items in m1/enter a save room in mzm
take the elevator from brinstar to norfair
take the elevator from norfair to ridley
take the elevator from brinstar to kraid
take the elevator from brinstar to tourian
enter mother brain's chamber
begin the escape sequence
complete the entire game

while super features versions of the start-up and item find tracks that's a little more different (from metroid than the ones in zm are), and account for 1% of the notes in the entire soundtrack.

but if you can't see my point, then i'm not going to bother with this. to be honest, i'm kind of deficient when it comes to explaining certain things (like, apparently, this, and that other thing with "where"), so you'll have to make a little inference as to what i mean. but i don't know how to spell it out better than that.


So they reused some of the music from Metroid and Super Metroid. This was done to create a nostolgic feel. Even the music they resued was composed differently. I do not think that implies anything.

Quote from Kejardon:
Nintendo often means 'port' when they say remake. They are reluctant to call ZM a remake because people might think 'Enhanced port' and decide it's not worth buying an NES game on the GBA.


Nintendo often means 'port' when they say new adventure. They are reluctant to call SM a remake because people might think 'Enhanced port' and decide it's not worth buying an NES game on the SNES.

Quote from Kejardon:
This is obviously false. Nintendo is still referring to Metroid I in these quotes. You are wrong and I am right.


You did not refute the facts. I claim total victory over your argument. Thank you for posting though.

Quote from Kejardon:
That would make it only an enlargement of the Metroid series. The message stated it's an enlargement of the *NES* Metroid. Ergo, it must *directly* connect to the NES Metroid storyline. Not come several missions before it.


It does expand the NES Metroid as well. You should read my posts.

Quote from Kejardon:
You forgot to add the definition of 'necessarily' in: “Not necessarily” means 'not in every case'. It implies it is true in some cases.


For the sake of argument, I will agree and continue that this means not in the case of storyline, which is what matters. Zero Mission is not a remake in every case (as you just admitted) and one of those cases according to Sakamoto is storyline.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:
Samus only spoke of a CO when she referred to Adam's physical life and her interactions with him then. She never referred to the computer Adam as a CO.


The Fusion introduction scenes prove that the computer was the CO.

"My mission on the B.S.L station will be overseen by my new ship's computer. Following the commands of this blunt, computerized CO is something I have to bear, as it was a condition of my taking the ship. For someone who dislikes taking orders, this is the second time I've found myself having to do so. It makes me recall my other CO..."

So, yes the computer is her CO on the Fusion mission, and is comparable to Adam. Yet, in Fusion, Samus is still a bounty hunter.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
For the 238789th time, your opinions are not facts. Honestly, some of your arguments would be more convincing if you didnt state opinions and "evidence" as fact. There is no proof and no way to prove that what you think about the metroid manual (covering up her identity vs typo / error / glitch ) is fact.


OK, go back and read what I posted from the Metroid manual. It states that there is a surprise ending if you beat the game quickly enough. That proves that the surprise was being built up in the references to Samus being a male cyborg. That is a fact, and my opinion is based on that fact.

It seems that the debate is drawing to a close. Kejardon has been proven wrong by the facts from Nintendo stating that Zero Mission was her first adventure as a bounty hunter, and Metroid proves that it had numerous bounty hunts before that. He could not refute this or the proof that Zero Mission is the first mission. Super Metroid's intro yields no results supporting the remake theory. The remake theory logic has been applied to Super Metroid thus showing that it is not sound. Yes, I would say this is just about over. Does anyone have anything they would like to ask?