MZM Timeline Status Discussion

2006-04-03 06:22:15 pm

lol no way

This is directed toward Dai Grepher:

I just want to mention really quickly that you stated in response to my rhetorical question, "Is it wrong for me to be human?" that Yes, it is wrong.

Elaborate. I'd like you to explain, outside of the debate, just for me, why you feel this way. I'm actually curious now.

Tahngarthor

2006-04-03 06:45:28 pm

Bangaa Bishop

The main problem with much of you reasoining is you state many things that are opinions, viewpoints, or *possible* evidence as "fact." Evidence does not automatically imply fact. Very few things in life are truly "fact." main definition of evidence:

Quote:

A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment:

theories etc can be used here. Just because someone gives "evidence" does not mean it's a fact, merely that it is something that facilitates a judgement. Medical studies: These almost always say "Evidence (such as a clinical trial) SUGGESTS, but DOES NOT PROVE, that bla bla MAY be true."

*above is just an example for argument puropses*

I dont have a problem with you giving evidence but you use the word fact far too often when it isnt necissairly a fact. When it comse to metroid, quoting a game manual with typos and oversights (I really believe the male/female thing was an oversight, personally) isnt quoting facts. If you really want to quote facts, you need to either A) Ask the game designers directly or B) Take what the game itself gives you. Manuals are OFTEN flawed or inaccurate in various ways.

There have been times (more than the one someone pointed otu) where you have given good clear arguments. but your reliance on self-proclaimed "facts" and flaws in your logic (and no, you're not the only one who ever uses flawed logic, we are not Vulcans) prevent me from being convinced in any way by you. (You meaning Dai.)

(Playing metroid prime would be nice right now but my gamecube died =\ )

The main problem with much of you reasoining is you state many things that are opinions, viewpoints, or *possible* evidence as "fact." Evidence does not automatically imply fact. Very few things in life are truly "fact."  main definition of evidence: [quote]A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment:[/quote] theories etc can be used here. Just because someone gives "evidence" does not mean it's a fact, merely that it is something that facilitates a judgement. Medical studies: These almost always say "Evidence (such as a clinical trial) SUGGESTS, but DOES NOT PROVE, that bla bla MAY be true."

*above is just an example for argument puropses*

I dont have a problem with you giving evidence but you use the word fact far too often when it isnt necissairly a fact. When it comse to metroid, quoting a game manual with typos and oversights (I really believe the male/female thing was an oversight, personally) isnt quoting facts. If you really want to quote facts, you need to either A) Ask the game designers directly or B) Take what the game itself gives you. Manuals are OFTEN flawed or inaccurate in various ways.

There have been times (more than the one someone pointed otu) where you have given good clear arguments. but your reliance on self-proclaimed "facts" and flaws in your logic (and no, you're not the only one who ever uses flawed logic, we are not Vulcans) prevent me from being convinced in any way by you. (You meaning Dai.)

(Playing metroid prime would be nice right now but my gamecube died =\ )

Prime Hunter

2006-04-03 07:32:00 pm

I was reading over your presentation again and came upon this:
(Sorry for leaving you with three different posts to respond to, but I keep finding new information)

Quote from Dai Grepher:

"All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities.”

There would be no reason to presume they were dead when they were all in the ship or Chozodia.

Yes, but when the Mothership was destroyed, wouldn't that have also killed any surviving pirates that were aboard or in the immediate area? Since that's the only other location that you see them in the game besides dead in Toruian, it makes sense. Plus, since Samus is the one that destroyed both Tourian and the Mothership, she is in fact responsible for the deaths of the space pirates.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

“Frigate Orpheon is now docked at Vortex Outpost. Orpheon's cargo appears to have a 100% survival rate: Metroids are healthy but on restricted feeding schedules due to uncertain supply status. We are ready to begin researching on Metroids and other promising life forms. Security status remains at code Blue: no signs of pursuit from the Hunter.”

Zero Mission shows the pirates to have a limited understanding of the Metroids, and it shows that the Pirates had little to no control over them.

In Metroid, the Pirates showed advanced knowledge of the Metroids in their plan to expose the Metroids to beta rays.

According to the Metroid Prime, the pirates were about to BEGIN their studies of the Metroids. This shows that they hadn't done much of anything when they were on Zebes, (Which ZM supports by having the Metroids kill all of the pirates in Tourian) so how can they have an ADVANCED knowledge of them at this point, like Metroid suggests?

Quote from Dai Grepher:

In Zero Mission, the pirates could not control the Metroids or transport them, and they did not retreat at zero hour as Metroid Prime points out.

Quote from Pirate Logs from Prime:

“Our research frigates Orpheon, Siriacus and Vol Paragorm were in orbit at zero hour and managed to retreat.”

Zero Hour is never defined as being right when MB is destroyed. It could be after the Mothership is.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

One other contradiction found was in Metroid Prime’s manual. It states: “She eventually made it to the core of their base, destroyed all the Metroids she saw, and seemingly blew up the Mother Brain.

But the Space Pirates were far from finished. They immediately split their survivors into two main camps. One headed to Zebes to begin rebuilding their ravaged facility and resuscitating Mother Brain, Ridley, and Kraid. The second set out in search of a planet with powerful energy resources.”

After Mother Brain was destroyed in Zero Mission, the Space Pirates did not rebuild any of their facilities, which means that no pirates were sent to rebuild Zebes as Prime’s manual states.

Once again, the exact time frame is never stated there. They could've begun rebuilding after the Mothership was destroyed and Samus long gone. Besides, it also mentions that they HEADED to Zebes. This means that these specific survivors weren't on the planet to begin with, so the fact that there weren't any survivors on Zebes doesn't mean a thing.

I was reading over your presentation again and came upon this:
(Sorry for leaving you with three different posts to respond to, but I keep finding new information)

[quote="Dai Grepher"]"All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities.”

There would be no reason to presume they were dead when they were all in the ship or Chozodia.[/quote]
Yes, but when the Mothership was destroyed, wouldn't that have also killed any surviving pirates that were aboard or in the immediate area? Since that's the only other location that you see them in the game besides dead in Toruian, it makes sense. Plus, since Samus is the one that destroyed both Tourian and the Mothership, she is in fact responsible for the deaths of the space pirates.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]“Frigate Orpheon is now docked at Vortex Outpost. Orpheon's cargo appears to have a 100% survival rate: Metroids are healthy but on restricted feeding schedules due to uncertain supply status. We are ready to [b][i]begin[/i][/b] researching on Metroids and other promising life forms. Security status remains at code Blue: no signs of pursuit from the Hunter.”

Zero Mission shows the pirates to have a limited understanding of the Metroids, and it shows that the Pirates had little to no control over them.

In Metroid, the Pirates showed advanced knowledge of the Metroids in their plan to expose the Metroids to beta rays. [/quote]
According to the Metroid Prime, the pirates were about to BEGIN their studies of the Metroids. This shows that they hadn't done much of anything when they were on Zebes, (Which ZM supports by having the Metroids kill all of the pirates in Tourian) so how can they have an ADVANCED knowledge of them at this point, like Metroid suggests?

[quote="Dai Grepher"]In Zero Mission, the pirates could not control the Metroids or transport them, and they did not retreat at zero hour as Metroid Prime points out.[/quote]
[quote="Pirate Logs from Prime"]“Our research frigates Orpheon, Siriacus and Vol Paragorm were in orbit at zero hour and managed to retreat.”[/quote]
Zero Hour is never defined as being right when MB is destroyed. It could be after the Mothership is.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]One other contradiction found was in Metroid Prime’s manual. It states: “She eventually made it to the core of their base, destroyed all the Metroids she saw, and seemingly blew up the Mother Brain.

But the Space Pirates were far from finished. They immediately split their survivors into two main camps. One headed to Zebes to begin rebuilding their ravaged facility and resuscitating Mother Brain, Ridley, and Kraid. The second set out in search of a planet with powerful energy resources.”

After Mother Brain was destroyed in Zero Mission, the Space Pirates did not rebuild any of their facilities, which means that no pirates were sent to rebuild Zebes as Prime’s manual states.[/quote]
Once again, the exact time frame is never stated there. They could've begun rebuilding after the Mothership was destroyed and Samus long gone. Besides, it also mentions that they HEADED to Zebes. This means that these specific survivors weren't on the planet to begin with, so the fact that there weren't any survivors on Zebes doesn't mean a thing.

spineshark

2006-04-03 08:40:14 pm

in the name of justice!

I'm done with this. I'm just going to say that we should demand the same burden of proof from him that he wants...a quote from somebody authoritative that states unquestionably that Zero Mission is a prequel. Until then, it's still just a theory.

I don't actually expect any such sort of official word, by the way.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2006-04-03 10:45:32 pm

Quote from Prime Hunter:

I just realized something else when playing Super Metroid: At the end of Super, when you are against MB's second form, she shoots out a beam from her eye (The 300 damage one) that you can't avoid. In ZM, MB has a less powerful version that doesn't always hit. With Metroid, MB justs sits there, with very little to defend herself with.

Why would MB lose this ability, (Along with her eye) from ZM to Metroid, only to regain a more powerful version in Super Metroid?

Logical explination:

After being destroyed in MZM, the mother brain went into a state of depression. Being on so many drugs, it couldnt stand to stay alive in 32-bit color, nevermind shoot eyebeams. That also explains its mysterious shrinking and its need for better protection. :o

Quote from Spine Shark:

I'm done with this. I'm just going to say that we should demand the same burden of proof from him that he wants...a quote from somebody authoritative that states unquestionably that Zero Mission is a prequel. Until then, it's still just a theory.

I don't actually expect any such sort of official word, by the way.

He got word that it was actually a prequel a while ago from a NOA employee, if that means anything.

[quote="Prime Hunter"]I just realized something else when playing Super Metroid: At the end of Super, when you are against MB's second form, she shoots out a beam from her eye (The 300 damage one) that you can't avoid. In ZM, MB has a less powerful version that doesn't always hit. With Metroid, MB justs sits there, with very little to defend herself with.

Why would MB lose this ability, (Along with her eye) from ZM to Metroid, only to regain a more powerful version in Super Metroid?[/quote]

Logical explination:

After being destroyed in MZM, the mother brain went into a state of depression.  Being on so many drugs, it couldnt stand to stay alive in 32-bit color, nevermind shoot eyebeams. That also explains its mysterious shrinking and its need for better protection. :o

[quote="Spine Shark"]I'm done with this.  I'm just going to say that we should demand the same burden of proof from him that he wants...a quote from somebody authoritative that states unquestionably that Zero Mission is a prequel.  Until then, it's still just a theory.

I don't actually expect any such sort of official word, by the way.[/quote]

He got word that it was actually a prequel a while ago from a NOA employee, if that means anything.

Kejardon

2006-04-03 11:02:34 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

I admitted that a few posts ago.
It's surprisingly hard not to make fun of you when you're being ridiculous.

It is against the rules to make fun of people the the forum.

It's against the rules to flame and troll. Poking fun at people is a social activity.

hmm. You refuse to fairly consider any view other than your own. So let's try this: For the next few posts, I'm going to argue things the same way you do (minus the sugar coating) to show how unfair your 'arguing' is. It may take a few posts before the idiocy is clear though, because I currently don't have to do any copping out yet... making some intentional mistakes so I can copout later. OOC means 'Out of Character', aka I'm not imitating you.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

What evidence do you have that Nintendo was referring to Metroid in those quotes?

You refuse to consider my proof because you are biased. (OOC: hey, this one's actually true! XD)

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

But that's not even relevant for a debate. Then again, this isn't even a debate any more, you aren't arguing anything.

Actaully it is, since you are the one claiming that my evidence does not prove that Zero Mission is the first mission. I thought you would know better than to say something as false as that. Also, had I not replied to this, you would have then accused me of ignoring your "evidence".

That is your opinion.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

Your use of fact does not match the dictionary.
The points you brought up have to do with me and not the debate.
Victory in the debate is not claimed by insulting me.

Posting quotes from the box and manual are examples of posting facts. You are wrong on that point.
What I said about your argument was factual. You avoided the points again.
I did not insult you. You are wrong on that point as well.

OOC: Because this is such a blatant lie (They aren't even statements, let alone facts), I'm just going to post the quotes for this. The lines that came just before where Dai Grepher started:

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Numerous ways to say it, yet it was not.

I never said Nintendo should've made it clear that ZM is a remake of Metroid in the ad. I said the ad was being dramatic and the 'game' was simply left understood instead of being explicitly stated.
Nintendo seems to think drama works great and uses it a lot. It's not what I would do, but I don't make the decisions for Nintendo.

Nor do you know their intentions. You cannot just say that they meant to imply that it is her first game when nothing of the sort was even stated. You are just making up excuses to ignore the facts that prove you wrong.

Quote from Kejardon:

Quote from Dai Grepher:

I thought that true Metroid fans sought the true timeline and regarded the facts. Why they are you fighting against the facts and trying to change them to fit your personal belief?

Personal insults... nothing about the argument.
I don't care about your insults, so I'm ignoring this.

Those were not insults, those were facts.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

http://www.planetgamecube.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=7093
And I know this is going to go one of two stupid ways. Actually, it'll probably go both ways, despite the fact that's even more stupid.

OK, I agree with you that Nintendo presented that as info about the game. However, that still does not change the fact that they made a mistake in calling Metroid the first mission. The thread also shows someone concluding that the game is not a remake of Metroid based on that same information. Thanks for the link, I will add it to my collection.

You have no evidence that calling Metroid the 'first mission' is a mistake.
(OOC: One of the things I expected was that you would say they decided it's not a remake. You have very selective reading)

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Those were not points, those were cases where you were "poking fun". So, yes I would like to discuss this. If Nintendo states this story as Zero Mission's backstory, then doesn't it prove that it is not a remake of Metroid?

Quote:

Samus Aran arrives on Zebes in an adventure that greatly expands on the legendary NES Metroid title.

That description makes it undeniably clear Zero Mission is a remake. You cannot deny this fact.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

You are misunderstanding the issue. You asked me if I admit that "first mission" should be replaced by "first game" in some cases. That is not true. I admit that it should be in that one particular case of the NOA description only. The only reason I think this is because Metroid was clearly implied to be what was being referred to. In cases where they just talk about the first mission, it should not be replaced because Metroid is not being implied.

Nintendo would not make such a stupid mistake. You can not arbitrarily deny evidence whenever it doesn't fit your theory.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

No, it is a fact that it is a mistake because Metroid is not the first mission. Yours is an opinion.

You said earlier Metroid is the first mission. You can't flipflop like that between points. Your theory is false.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

You have no evidence.

This is obviously false. I have presented tons of proof that makes it clear Zero Mission is a remake.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Apples and oranges. The texts I quoted are not the same as yours.

You are wrong and I am right.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Your viewpoint is baseless.

You have no evidence against my viewpoint.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

Ah, so it was just a horrendous lapse of memory earlier in the topic?

On your part? Yes.

OOC: I'm still going to handle this thread myself, because it's just too absurd.
Reality check:

Quote from Dai Grepher:

"Not necessarily" means that something is NOT even though other things suggest it is.

This is still your interpretation of "Not necessarily", right?

(Edited to fix huge quote nest)

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"] I admitted that a few posts ago. 
It's surprisingly hard not to make fun of you when you're being ridiculous.[/quote]
It is against the rules to make fun of people the the forum.[/quote]
It's against the rules to flame and troll. Poking fun at people is a social activity.

hmm. You refuse to fairly consider any view other than your own. So let's try this: For the next few posts, I'm going to argue things the same way you do (minus the sugar coating) to show how unfair your 'arguing' is. It may take a few posts before the idiocy is clear though, because I currently don't have to do any copping out yet... making some intentional mistakes so I can copout later. OOC means 'Out of Character', aka I'm not imitating you.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]What evidence do you have that Nintendo was referring to Metroid in those quotes?[/quote]
You refuse to consider my proof because you are biased. (OOC: hey, this one's actually true! XD)

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"] But that's not even relevant for a debate. Then again, this isn't even a debate any more, you aren't arguing anything.[/quote]

Actaully it is, since you are the one claiming that my evidence does not prove that Zero Mission is the first mission. I thought you would know better than to say something as false as that. Also, had I not replied to this, you would have then accused me of ignoring your "evidence".[/quote]
That is your opinion.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"] Your use of fact does not match the dictionary. 
The points you brought up have to do with me and not the debate. 
Victory in the debate is not claimed by insulting me.[/quote]
Posting quotes from the box and manual are examples of posting facts. You are wrong on that point.
What I said about your argument was factual. You avoided the points again.
I did not insult you. You are wrong on that point as well.[/quote]
OOC: Because this is such a blatant lie (They aren't even statements, let alone facts), I'm just going to post the quotes for this. The lines that came just before where Dai Grepher started:
[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"][quote="Dai Grepher"]
Numerous ways to say it, yet it was not.[/quote]
I never said Nintendo should've made it clear that ZM is a remake of Metroid in the ad. I said the ad was being dramatic and the 'game' was simply left understood instead of being explicitly stated.
Nintendo seems to think drama works great and uses it a lot. It's not what I would do, but I don't make the decisions for Nintendo.[/quote]Nor do you know their intentions. You cannot just say that they meant to imply that it is her first game when nothing of the sort was even stated. You are just making up excuses to ignore the facts that prove you wrong. [quote="Kejardon"][quote="Dai Grepher"]I thought that true Metroid fans sought the true timeline and regarded the facts. Why they are you fighting against the facts and trying to change them to fit your personal belief?[/quote]Personal insults... nothing about the argument.
I don't care about your insults, so I'm ignoring this.[/quote]
Those were not insults, those were facts.[/quote]

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"]  http://www.planetgamecube.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=7093 
And I know this is going to go one of two stupid ways. Actually, it'll probably go both ways, despite the fact that's even more stupid.[/quote]
OK, I agree with you that Nintendo presented that as info about the game. However, that still does not change the fact that they made a mistake in calling Metroid the first mission. The thread also shows someone concluding that the game is not a remake of Metroid based on that same information. Thanks for the link, I will add it to my collection.[/quote]
You have no evidence that calling Metroid the 'first mission' is a mistake.
(OOC: One of the things I expected was that you would say they decided it's not a remake. You have very selective reading)

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Those were not points, those were cases where you were "poking fun". So, yes I would like to discuss this. If Nintendo states this story as Zero Mission's backstory, then doesn't it prove that it is not a remake of Metroid?[/quote]
[quote]Samus Aran arrives on Zebes in an adventure that greatly expands on the legendary NES Metroid title.[/quote]
That description makes it undeniably clear Zero Mission is a remake. You cannot deny this fact.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]You are misunderstanding the issue. You asked me if I admit that "first mission" should be replaced by "first game" in some cases. That is not true. I admit that it should be in that one particular case of the NOA description only. The only reason I think this is because Metroid was clearly implied to be what was being referred to. In cases where they just talk about the first mission, it should not be replaced because Metroid is not being implied.[/quote]
Nintendo would not make such a stupid mistake. You can not arbitrarily deny evidence whenever it doesn't fit your theory.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]No, it is a fact that it is a mistake because Metroid is not the first mission. Yours is an opinion.[/quote]
You said earlier Metroid is the first mission. You can't flipflop like that between points. Your theory is false.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]You have no evidence.[/quote]
This is obviously false. I have presented tons of proof that makes it clear Zero Mission is a remake.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Apples and oranges. The texts I quoted are not the same as yours.[/quote]
You are wrong and I am right.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Your viewpoint is baseless.[/quote]
You have no evidence against my viewpoint.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"]Ah, so it was just a horrendous lapse of memory earlier in the topic?[/quote]
On your part? Yes.[/quote]
OOC: I'm still going to handle this thread myself, because it's just too absurd.
Reality check: [quote="Dai Grepher"]"Not necessarily" means that something is NOT even though other things suggest it is.[/quote]
This is still your interpretation of "Not necessarily", right?

(Edited to fix huge quote nest)

BlueGlass

2006-04-04 01:34:49 am

Okay, I just read the ENTIRE thread at G4, and I happened to notice a link that you, dai, made no response to

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=441

Note the part where it says

Quote:

Metroid: Zero Mission retold the story of the original Metroid

When this was posted in the G4 forums, you made no response to it.

Also, if that isn't enough, there is a link on the right side of the page to the MZM page where it says

Quote:

Sakamoto decided he wanted to remake the original title that has become so famous and important to Nintendo fans.

Lazylen

(user is banned)

2006-04-04 08:27:56 am

Quote from BlueGlass:

Okay, I just read the ENTIRE thread at G4, and I happened to notice a link that you, dai, made no response to

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=441

Note the part where it says

Quote:

Metroid: Zero Mission retold the story of the original Metroid

When this was posted in the G4 forums, you made no response to it.

Also, if that isn't enough, there is a link on the right side of the page to the MZM page where it says

Quote:

Sakamoto decided he wanted to remake the original title that has become so famous and important to Nintendo fans.

actually, the MZM being a "retelling", not a "remake" of Metroid is what i've always been arguing. that wasnt my post though.

MZM being a retelling makes the most sense, as then it doesnt go right after Metroid. Instead, it can go anywhere in the timeline, and things can be forgotten or added in for bragging rights, you know?

SABERinBLUE

2006-04-04 10:36:57 am

Cook of the Sea

Dai, check your PMs.

Dai Grepher

2006-04-05 11:07:04 am

Quote from Prime Hunter:

How could Super Metroid be a remake of Metroid? THE PROLOGUE shows that she visited Zebes first, went ot SR388, got the Larva, and THEN went back to Zebes. Those are the FACTS, since you seem to rely heavily on them.

Yes, but this is working under the assumption that Zero Mission is made to replace Metroid. Therefore, for this hypothetical discussion about Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid because of the same reasons listed for Zero Mission being one, Super Metroid would then be referring to Zero Mission in the flashback.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Besides, how do you explain ROS referring to Metroid/ZM if, according to your new idea of Super possibly being a remake of Metroid, Super comes AFTER ROS?

Return of Samus referred to Zero Mission, and Super Metroid/Metroid referred to Zero Mission and Return of Samus.

The basic argument is that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid because it is similar to Metroid but has many extras (Metroid was intended to be like Super Metroid, and after Metroid II the developers decided to remake Metroid to be consistent with their original view). Thus, Super Metroid expands on Metroid by placing it after Return of Samus. This leaves a gap before Return of Samus, which is why Zero Mission was made, to fill that gap. There are bound to be inconsistencies, but that is OK because remakes often have inconsistencies, and you cannot blame different development teams for not wanting to be restricted to one design.

The thing to keep in mind is that this is actually taking the remake theory's explanations of the Zero Mission inconsistencies/similarities and turning them back on the remake side by applying them to a game that even the remake side cannot see as being a remake (as the prequel side views Zero Mission). I hope I am being clear when I say all of this. I do not actually believe that Super Metroid is a remake, but I think that arguing that it is based on the same reasons given by the remake side for Zero Mission shows how irrational the argument seems to the prequel side when applying it to Zero Mission.

Zero Mission is a remake because there are a few similarities with the maps, items, plot, and bosses. The inconsistencies are explained by the fact that most remakes are inconsistent.
Super Metroid is a remake because there are a few similarities with the maps, items, plot, and bosses. The inconsistencies are explained by the fact that most remakes are inconsistent.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Super CANNOT be a remake of Metroid, since this proves that Metroid/ZM comes BEFORE ROS, and Super comes AFTER.

Here is the idea though. What if Metroid was meant to be as Super Metroid is? See, back in 1986 they could not make Metroid to have all of the features that Super Metroid has. That is why in 1994 they remade Metroid to be Super Metroid. Look at the title, "Super Metroid" indicates Metroid being expanded. Now, can you prove this idea wrong without using game images, storyline differences, quotes from the director, and information on the Nintendo website? No. No one can, and that is because the content of the games, the storyline differences, and all of the information is the only thing we can use to determine where the games take place in the series.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

There has never been any debate on where Super Metroid comes in the timeline when compared to Metroid and ROS. When those games were made 12+ years ago, they made it obvious that they are back, to back, to back like a Trilogy.

So your conclusion that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid is based on in-game evidence, storyline, and informational text regarding the games? Well, that is what my presentation is based on with the Zero Mission argument. To say that "the designers did not make it consistent because other remakes are inconsistent", or that "this box quote says this but really means something else" is in reality a blatant disregard for the facts that Nintendo has given to us. The facts prove that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid, but my point is this: When you disregard the facts, even Super Metroid can be a remake of Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

As I said before, Super is not a remake of Metroid. Look above for my proof.

"That is not proof! Those are just minor inconsistencies that the developers did not care about."

Now you know how I feel when people say that to me about the proof I found for Zero Mission.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

You do realize, that no matter who you are, EVERY human makes mistakes once in a while? I proved it myself a while ago with my claim that there was evidence that they said ZM was a better, more accepted version of Metroid for today's gamers.

Well, that was in reply to someone else saying they like to flame me.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

We are all human, so we all make mistakes, just not all of the same calibur. Who says that Nintendo has never made any mistakes? Hmm... what about the Virtual Boy, or the SNES CD?

It would be possible and acceptable if the designers simply did not make Zero Mission's Tourian match up with Metroid and thus Super Metroid's (damaged) Tourian. I would not expect them to make it 100% accurate, or even 30% accurate. However, Zero Mission's Tourian is almost the complete opposite of what it SHOULD look like as a remake. Basically the only thing that looks the same is what direction Samus goes when moving through the room the first time.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Those elements do not, in any way shape or form, alter the OVERALL STORY of Zero Mission. They have nothing to do with it. Think back to my Kong theory. Sure, she has to fight some more creatures, and get over different obstacles, but that doesn't change the storyline.

Then I guess the addition of Spore Spawn, Crocomire, Phantoon, Botwoon, Draygon, and the Torizos do not change the fact that Super Metroid is a remake on Metroid's overall story. After all, they did keep Fake Kraid in Super Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Uh... what maps have you been looking at? Yes, the areas are in the same general location. (Crateria, Brinstar, Norfair, and wrecked Tourian compared to ZM's Tourian) They don't really look ANYTHING alike, however. Where did Kraid + Ridley's lairs go? What the heck are the Wrecked Ship and Maridia doing in there? Where did this new Tourian come from? ZM and Super are vastly different in terms of the map.

What about Crateria? It only appeared in Super Metroid, but even in Zero Mission it looks different. Why couldn't the other areas be remade in this way as well?

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Even in their respective locations, the old areas (Besides Crateria) look vastly different from ZM.

So let me see if I understand this. You are using in-game differences in appearance between the two maps to prove that one map is different from the other?

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Norfair expands itself all over the map down there (specifically, the majority of it is in the oposite direction of the original Norfair from ZM/Metroid), where ZM's Norfair was a lot more condensed.

The Zero Mission Norfair is greatly expanded or different in places from Metroid as well.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Brinstar is spead out even FARTHER than it was in ZM. Plus, where did the extra vertical shaft, where you first come down the elevator in Super, come in?

That could simply be a new part of Norfair that we did not see in Metroid. Zero Mission may have changed this as a remake of Super Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

The map similarities between ZM and Metroid have a lot less differences than that. Yes, they added in Crateria and Chozodia, but that's part of the extended storyline in ZM.

Couldn't the new areas in Super Metroid be expanded storyline?

(separate argument)

Couldn't the different areas in Zero Mission be remade elements from Super Metroid?

Quote from Prime Hunter:

If you take those out, ZM and Metroid have VERY SIMILAR map layouts. Almost everything is in nearly the exact same place as it was before. The overall shape of each area is the same.

There would be the issue of the combined areas not matching up, but I do not really regard that since transferring areas over from Metroid could have caused this in production.

However, there is still the issue of the extra map that is not featured in Metroid, as well as parts taken out from the original Metroid map for no apparent reason (meaning save rooms and long useless corridors are excluded from this point). Like in Ridley's Hideout when Samus goes to the left. There once was a secret passage in the ceiling that took Samus to a missile expansion. This entire area is not even carried over from Metroid, and in its place is the area with the Imago. An example of something taken out for no reason is the bottom left portion of Kraid's Hideout.

Like I said before, Crateria had only been shown in Super Metroid. How do we know that Zero Mission is not a remake of Super Metroid. Then there is the issue of Tourian. It does not resemble the Metroid Tourian at all. So what game was remade for that area? This is why I think they just created a new game based on areas from both Metroid and Super Metroid as well as new areas.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Oh, and if you look at the ZM map where you compared the elevator locations (As shown in my comparison below), notice the ZM starting point in terms of Tourian. If you look at it, yes the elevator goes up to where the bombs would be. However, it has to cross RIGHT THROUGH the area where the elevator is in Super. (The one right next to the wrecked Toruian, where you head down to first get the Morph Ball) Coincidence?

Besides the obvious flaw that Zero Mission would then have to show the elevator shaft from Brinstar cutting through that part of Tourian, this is also impossible. Tourian cannot be placed in Zero Mission where it is seen in Metroid. This is because it causes the elevator entering Tourian to intersect with the elevator leading down from Brinstar.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

How do you explain that the location moves from ZM, which according to your argument is a prequel; over to the right in Metroid, which takes place between ZM and Super; and back to where it was in ZM for Super, which takes place AFTER both of them?

I never claimed that the Tourian in Zero Mission is the same one seen in Metroid. In fact, I claimed they are different locations completely. Also, it is not in the same place in Super Metroid. As you can see by the image you posted, Brinstar sits much lower beneath the old Tourian than in Metroid.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Besides, I just noticed something else: If you look at the Super Metroid map, the Bombs aren't even directly above where the elevator would go if that's where you come out in Zero Mission. It doesn't even lead to the Bomb room, just a spot in front of where they eventually put it. Not sure if that's what you mean in your original presentation, but I just thought of it now.

I said that the top of the elevator shaft in Zero Mission lead to the same area as the Bombs from Super Metroid. I did not say it was directly above or anything like that.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

The fact that you can't even get into the crater without them, which is where MP is located. If you didn't notice, the crater is suspended high above the ground. How would MP get in and out of that so easily, without the ability to fly when in it's first form?

“Prime Mutations
Log 11.402.5

Metroid Prime continues to feed and grow ever larger in the impact crater caves. Its hunger knows no bounds, and it has begun to manifest unusual mutations since its breach. These include armor plating on its epidermis and mechanical outgrowths that generate defense screens. These screens render it invulnerable to most weapon systems, but a flaw in the mutation leads to increased vulnerability to certain weapons. It compensates for this by shifting the screens quickly. This latest development concerns Security units greatly: they feel it's a matter of time before Metroid Prime corrects this defect and renders itself invulnerable to all weaponry. Containment would be nigh impossible if this were to occur.”

“Chozo Artifacts
Log 11.452.8

We are particularly interested in a number of curious Chozo Artifacts we have been able to recover from a number of religious sites on Tallon IV. These relics resonate with power, and yet we are unable to harness them in any way. Science Team is attempting to fuse them together with Phazon, believing that a link might exist between them. We know that these Artifacts are linked to the Chozo Temple that block full access to the Impact Crater. We have yet to crack this enigma, however. Command grows impatient regarding this matter: results must be produced soon.”

The Pirates, and apparently Metroid Prime as well, only have access to specific parts of the crater, but do not have access to the main source of the phazon.

“Artifact Site
Log 10.308.0

Field team reports are in on an aged structure of alien design built on the surface of Tallon IV. Studies show this structure projects a containment field. This field bars access to a prime source of energy within a deep crater. Science Team believes the field is powered by a number of strange Chozo Artifacts. We have found some of these relics and studies on them have begun. As this field could hinder future energy production operations on Tallon IV, we must dismantle it as soon as possible. If this means the destruction of the Chozo Artifacts, it will be done.”

The Metroid Prime is not the prime energy source, and I think the Chozo Lore even states that the field contains the phazon worm, not the Metroid Prime. I am sorry, but I simply do not see any plot holes here.

[quote="Spine Shark”] "[s]he has completed numerous missions..." is nothing resembling telling the story of MZM.[/quote]

What? Zero Mission is the first mission, which means saying that Samus had missions before Metroid does describe Zero Mission.

Quote from Spine Shark:

So why are yours automatically right, while his are wrong?

He assumes that the text means something other than what it says, but there is no such implication. The text can only be read one way. The way I read it is not “my way” it is the only way.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

I just realized something else when playing Super Metroid: At the end of Super, when you are against MB's second form, she shoots out a beam from her eye (The 300 damage one) that you can't avoid. In ZM, MB has a less powerful version that doesn't always hit. With Metroid, MB justs sits there, with very little to defend herself with.

Why would MB lose this ability, (Along with her eye) from ZM to Metroid, only to regain a more powerful version in Super Metroid?

Metroid’s Mother Brain is much harder to defeat than Zero Mission’s. It probably lacks the eye beam because it concentrates on firing the gun turrets and Rinka, which are much harder to avoid.

Quote from ajbolt89:

I just want to mention really quickly that you stated in response to my rhetorical question, "Is it wrong for me to be human?" that Yes, it is wrong.

Elaborate. I'd like you to explain, outside of the debate, just for me, why you feel this way. I'm actually curious now.

I will send you a private message about it.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

I was reading over your presentation again and came upon this:
(Sorry for leaving you with three different posts to respond to, but I keep finding new information)

Dai Grepher wrote:
“All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities.”

There would be no reason to presume they were dead when they were all in the ship or Chozodia.

Yes, but when the Mothership was destroyed, wouldn't that have also killed any surviving pirates that were aboard or in the immediate area?

This is not when the presumption was made though. This was made at “zero hour” when Tourian exploded and the ships in orbit retreated.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Since that's the only other location that you see them in the game besides dead in Toruian, it makes sense. Plus, since Samus is the one that destroyed both Tourian and the Mothership, she is in fact responsible for the deaths of the space pirates.

Samus did not set the self-destruct sequence on either of them, though this is not the issue. Killing the Space Pirates was her doing and it is what the log mentions. However, the Metroids also killed the pirates in Zero Mission. This is seen before Samus enters Tourian.

Also, the point of this quote is that it records the destruction of the underground facilities, which does not actually happen in Zero Mission.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

According to the Metroid Prime, the pirates were about to BEGIN their studies of the Metroids. This shows that they hadn't done much of anything when they were on Zebes, so how would they have an ADVANCED knowledge of them, like Metroid suggests?

That is not what it states. It just states that they were ready to begin researching them. That does not imply that no research was done before hand. In fact, the manual states that they had been researching Metroids for many years before this.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Zero Hour is never defined as being right when MB is destroyed. It could be after the Mothership is.

“Zebes has fallen. All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the Hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities. Our research frigates were in orbit at zero hour and managed to retreat.”

This suggests that zero hour occurred as Tourian exploded since it mentions this after mentioning the destruction of the underground facilities. Remember, this was made to refer to Metroid. The explosion was visible from orbit but the ship’s explosion was only a fraction of that. The destruction of Mother Brain is also when the planetary defenses would fall, which would be the only reason why the pirates would want to retreat from Zebes. There is also the fact that Samus leaves Zebes at this time as well. Had these ships been in orbit, they would have likely shot her escape pod down.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Once again, the exact time frame is never stated there. They could've begun rebuilding after the Mothership was destroyed and Samus long gone. Besides, it also mentions that they HEADED to Zebes. This means that these specific survivors weren't on the planet to begin with, so the fact that there weren't any survivors on Zebes doesn't mean a thing.

OK. I think we just disagree on when zero hour was.

Quote from Lazylen:

He got word that it was actually a prequel a while ago from a NOA employee, if that means anything.

No one got an e-mail that said that specifically, at least not to the best of my knowledge. However, we did get e-mails that said the game was not a remake.

Quote from Kejardon:

What evidence do you have that Nintendo was referring to Metroid in those quotes?

You refuse to consider my proof because you are biased. (OOC: hey, this one's actually true! XD)

You are avoiding the question. Post your evidence or else I claim victory.

Quote from Kejardon:

[i]Actually it is, since you are the one claiming that my evidence does not prove that Zero Mission is the first mission. I thought you would know better than to say something as false as that. Also, had I not replied to this, you would have then accused me of ignoring your "evidence".

Quote from Kejardon:

That is your opinion.

Fine, but you must still post your evidence that the proof I found does not indicate that Zero Mission is the first mission.

Quote from Kejardon:

You have no evidence that calling Metroid the 'first mission' is a mistake.
(OOC: One of the things I expected was that you would say they decided it's not a remake. You have very selective reading)

I said one person, not “they”. Also, there is undeniable proof that Nintendo made a mistake in that reference. Fact: “…had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid prologue.
Metroid is proven to not be the first mission. Hence calling it that is a mistake.

Quote from Kejardon:

That description makes it undeniably clear Zero Mission is a remake. You cannot deny this fact.

Expansion can take place before, during or after a story. Zero Mission is a backstory expansion as Sakamoto stated. Zero Mission expands on Metroid’s backstory and sets the stage for it.

Quote from Kejardon:

Nintendo would not make such a stupid mistake. You can not arbitrarily deny evidence whenever it doesn't fit your theory.

I have proven that it was a mistake.

Quote from Kejardon:

You said earlier Metroid is the first mission. You can't flipflop like that between points. Your theory is false.

I never stated that Metroid was the first mission.

Quote from Kejardon:

This is still your interpretation of "Not necessarily", right?

I have no interpretation of words. I understand words as they exist by definition.

1. inevitably: inevitably, or in every case
This route isn't necessarily the best one.

2. unavoidably: following as an unavoidable result or consequence
Voting was a necessarily slow and complex process.

Quote from BlueGlass:

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=441

Note the part where it says Quote:
Metroid: Zero Mission retold the story of the original Metroid

When this was posted in the G4 forums, you made no response to it.

Also, if that isn't enough, there is a link on the right side of the page to the MZM page where it says Sakamoto decided he wanted to remake the original title that has become so famous and important to Nintendo fans.

I thought I did. Well first of all, the link takes you to an article written by one person. Who is to say that this person knows his facts? The Zero Mission article does say that the game was a retelling and a remake, but it does not actually prove this. On that same page it states the following:

“Samus Aran relives the original adventure that has become a legend. Exploring the mysterious ruins of Planet Zebes will expose several dark truths of the origin of the planet and the mysterious organism controlling the cancer like virus haunting the atmosphere.

Now I do not know about your version of Zero Mission but I know mine does not feature any such storyline.

“Responding to the stress signal, the Intergalactic Federation dispatches bounty hunter Samus Aran to embark on her Zero Mission. Those who recall the original Zebes adventure will find that this Zero Mission is a completely new interpretation of a famous event. New bosses, new items, new techniques, new storyline details, redesigned and new environments all await Samus Aran on her most famous adventure ever.[/quote]

Also a false storyline element. This misinformation makes me doubt the credibility of this article, and makes me wonder if it just the opinion of one non-official editor.

“Development Summary
Yoshio Sakamoto and the R&D1 team behind Metroid Fusion immediately got to working on a second original Metroid installment for the Game Boy Advance. Sakamoto decided he wanted to remake the original title that has become so famous and important to Nintendo fans. Sakamoto kept the basic premise of the original adventure, but has increased the overall content by about 40%. Basically what you have is a game that resembles the original Metroid in scenario and level design about half the time, because the other half is completely new.
The success of Metroid in the American markets, and moderate sales in Japan region have re-established an internal interest in Metroid for Yoshio Sakamoto and the R&D1 team.[/quote]

Like I said, this could easily be one person’s interpretation of the IGN interview, where Sakamoto made comments that could have been mistaken for implying that the entire game was a remake. Even this article sounds as if one who wrote it is not sure on what was actually said. In some parts he states that Sakamoto said this, but then also says that it merely resembles Metroid. Then he states that 40% is new. Where did this estimate come from, and if this is official then why aren’t there any quotes to support the information?

“Game Features

Loosely based on the 1986 NES hit
Cinematics tell the story like never before
Eeprom Save
Art Gallery”

This is what makes me think that this was just a poorly researched article. After saying that it is a remake it is still only “loosely based on” Metroid? That does not make sense. It seems to me like this person read the interview and interpreted some points correctly, like the “loosely based” point, but got the main idea behind it all wrong.

This is not an official review anyway, so I do not consider this as anything more than just another remake theory. Of course the obvious flaws in describing the actual storyline behind the game make this conclusion much more valid.

Quote from Lazylen:

actually, the MZM being a "retelling", not a "remake" of Metroid is what i've always been arguing. that wasnt my post though.

MZM being a retelling makes the most sense, as then it doesnt go right after Metroid. Instead, it can go anywhere in the timeline, and things can be forgotten or added in for bragging rights, you know?

The problem I have with that is that it is not an accurate telling of Metroid’s events, as proven by the presentation, and it does not make the most sense. Moreover, there is no evidence that this was an inaccurate retelling. It is just the opinion of a few review sites.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] How could Super Metroid be a remake of Metroid? THE PROLOGUE shows that she visited Zebes first, went ot SR388, got the Larva, and THEN went back to Zebes. Those are the FACTS, since you seem to rely heavily on them.[/quote]

Yes, but this is working under the assumption that Zero Mission is made to replace Metroid. Therefore, for this hypothetical discussion about Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid because of the same reasons listed for Zero Mission being one, Super Metroid would then be referring to Zero Mission in the flashback.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Besides, how do you explain ROS referring to Metroid/ZM if, according to your new idea of Super possibly being a remake of Metroid, Super comes AFTER ROS?[/quote]

Return of Samus referred to Zero Mission, and Super Metroid/Metroid referred to Zero Mission and Return of Samus.

The basic argument is that Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid because it is similar to Metroid but has many extras (Metroid was intended to be like Super Metroid, and after Metroid II the developers decided to remake Metroid to be consistent with their original view). Thus, Super Metroid expands on Metroid by placing it after Return of Samus. This leaves a gap before Return of Samus, which is why Zero Mission was made, to fill that gap. There are bound to be inconsistencies, but that is OK because remakes often have inconsistencies, and you cannot blame different development teams for not wanting to be restricted to one design.

The thing to keep in mind is that this is actually taking the remake theory's explanations of the Zero Mission inconsistencies/similarities and turning them back on the remake side by applying them to a game that even the remake side cannot see as being a remake (as the prequel side views Zero Mission). I hope I am being clear when I say all of this. I do not actually believe that Super Metroid is a remake, but I think that arguing that it is based on the same reasons given by the remake side for Zero Mission shows how irrational the argument seems to the prequel side when applying it to Zero Mission.

Zero Mission is a remake because there are a few similarities with the maps, items, plot, and bosses. The inconsistencies are explained by the fact that most remakes are inconsistent.
Super Metroid is a remake because there are a few similarities with the maps, items, plot, and bosses. The inconsistencies are explained by the fact that most remakes are inconsistent.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Super CANNOT be a remake of Metroid, since this proves that Metroid/ZM comes BEFORE ROS, and Super comes AFTER.[/quote]

Here is the idea though. What if Metroid was meant to be as Super Metroid is? See, back in 1986 they could not make Metroid to have all of the features that Super Metroid has. That is why in 1994 they remade Metroid to be Super Metroid. Look at the title, "Super Metroid" indicates Metroid being expanded. Now, can you prove this idea wrong [b]without[/b] using game images, storyline differences, quotes from the director, and information on the Nintendo website? No. No one can, and that is because the content of the games, the storyline differences, and all of the information is the only thing we can use to determine where the games take place in the series.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] There has never been any debate on where Super Metroid comes in the timeline when compared to Metroid and ROS. When those games were made 12+ years ago, they made it obvious that they are back, to back, to back like a Trilogy.[/quote]

So your conclusion that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid is based on in-game evidence, storyline, and informational text regarding the games? Well, that is what my presentation is based on with the Zero Mission argument. To say that "the designers did not make it consistent because other remakes are inconsistent", or that "this box quote says this but really means something else" is in reality a blatant disregard for the facts that Nintendo has given to us. The facts prove that Super Metroid is not a remake of Metroid, but my point is this: When you disregard the facts, even Super Metroid can be a remake of Metroid.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] As I said before, Super is not a remake of Metroid. Look above for my proof.[/quote]

"That is not proof! Those are just minor inconsistencies that the developers did not care about."

Now you know how I feel when people say that to me about the proof I found for Zero Mission.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] You do realize, that no matter who you are, EVERY human makes mistakes once in a while? I proved it myself a while ago with my claim that there was evidence that they said ZM was a better, more accepted version of Metroid for today's gamers.[/quote]

Well, that was in reply to someone else saying they like to flame me.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] We are all human, so we all make mistakes, just not all of the same calibur. Who says that Nintendo has never made any mistakes? Hmm... what about the Virtual Boy, or the SNES CD?[/quote]

It would be possible and acceptable if the designers simply did not make Zero Mission's Tourian match up with Metroid and thus Super Metroid's (damaged) Tourian. I would not expect them to make it 100% accurate, or even 30% accurate. However, Zero Mission's Tourian is almost the complete opposite of what it SHOULD look like as a remake. Basically the only thing that looks the same is what direction Samus goes when moving through the room the first time.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Those elements do not, in any way shape or form, alter the OVERALL STORY of Zero Mission. They have nothing to do with it. Think back to my Kong theory. Sure, she has to fight some more creatures, and get over different obstacles, but that doesn't change the storyline.[/quote]

Then I guess the addition of Spore Spawn, Crocomire, Phantoon, Botwoon, Draygon, and the Torizos do not change the fact that Super Metroid is a remake on Metroid's overall story. After all, they did keep Fake Kraid in Super Metroid.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Uh... what maps have you been looking at? Yes, the areas are in the same general location. (Crateria, Brinstar, Norfair, and wrecked Tourian compared to ZM's Tourian) They don't really look ANYTHING alike, however. Where did Kraid + Ridley's lairs go? What the heck are the Wrecked Ship and Maridia doing in there? Where did this new Tourian come from? ZM and Super are vastly different in terms of the map.[/quote]

What about Crateria? It only appeared in Super Metroid, but even in Zero Mission it looks different. Why couldn't the other areas be remade in this way as well?

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Even in their respective locations, the old areas (Besides Crateria) look vastly different from ZM.[/quote]

So let me see if I understand this. You are using in-game differences in appearance between the two maps to prove that one map is different from the other?

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Norfair expands itself all over the map down there (specifically, the majority of it is in the oposite direction of the original Norfair from ZM/Metroid), where ZM's Norfair was a lot more condensed.[/quote]

The Zero Mission Norfair is greatly expanded or different in places from Metroid as well.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Brinstar is spead out even FARTHER than it was in ZM. Plus, where did the extra vertical shaft, where you first come down the elevator in Super, come in?[/quote]

That could simply be a new part of Norfair that we did not see in Metroid. Zero Mission may have changed this as a remake of Super Metroid.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] The map similarities between ZM and Metroid have a lot less differences than that. Yes, they added in Crateria and Chozodia, but that's part of the extended storyline in ZM.[/quote]

Couldn't the new areas in Super Metroid be expanded storyline?

(separate argument)

Couldn't the different areas in Zero Mission be remade elements from Super Metroid?

[quote="Prime Hunter"] If you take those out, ZM and Metroid have VERY SIMILAR map layouts. Almost everything is in nearly the exact same place as it was before. The overall shape of each area is the same.[/quote]

There would be the issue of the combined areas not matching up, but I do not really regard that since transferring areas over from Metroid could have caused this in production.

However, there is still the issue of the extra map that is not featured in Metroid, as well as parts taken out from the original Metroid map for [b]no apparent reason[/b] (meaning save rooms and long useless corridors are excluded from this point). Like in Ridley's Hideout when Samus goes to the left. There once was a secret passage in the ceiling that took Samus to a missile expansion. This entire area is not even carried over from Metroid, and in its place is the area with the Imago. An example of something taken out for no reason is the bottom left portion of Kraid's Hideout.

Like I said before, Crateria had only been shown in Super Metroid. How do we know that Zero Mission is not a remake of Super Metroid. Then there is the issue of Tourian. It does not resemble the Metroid Tourian at all. So what game was remade for that area? This is why I think they just created a new game based on areas from both Metroid and Super Metroid as well as new areas.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Oh, and if you look at the ZM map where you compared the elevator locations (As shown in my comparison below), notice the ZM starting point in terms of Tourian. If you look at it, yes the elevator goes up to where the bombs would be. However, it has to cross RIGHT THROUGH the area where the elevator is in Super. (The one right next to the wrecked Toruian, where you head down to first get the Morph Ball) Coincidence?[/quote]

Besides the obvious flaw that Zero Mission would then have to show the elevator shaft from Brinstar cutting through that part of Tourian, this is also impossible. Tourian cannot be placed in Zero Mission where it is seen in Metroid. This is because it causes the elevator entering Tourian to intersect with the elevator leading down from Brinstar.

[img]http://img203.echo.cx/img203/2458/zeromap14xg.png[/img]

[quote="Prime Hunter"] How do you explain that the location moves from ZM, which according to your argument is a prequel; over to the right in Metroid, which takes place between ZM and Super; and back to where it was in ZM for Super, which takes place AFTER both of them?[/quote]

I never claimed that the Tourian in Zero Mission is the same one seen in Metroid. In fact, I claimed they are different locations completely. Also, it is not in the same place in Super Metroid. As you can see by the image you posted, Brinstar sits much lower beneath the old Tourian than in Metroid.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Besides, I just noticed something else: If you look at the Super Metroid map, the Bombs aren't even directly above where the elevator would go if that's where you come out in Zero Mission. It doesn't even lead to the Bomb room, just a spot in front of where they eventually put it. Not sure if that's what you mean in your original presentation, but I just thought of it now.[/quote]

I said that the top of the elevator shaft in Zero Mission lead to the same area as the Bombs from Super Metroid. I did not say it was directly above or anything like that.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] The fact that you can't even get into the crater without them, which is where MP is located. If you didn't notice, the crater is suspended high above the ground. How would MP get in and out of that so easily, without the ability to fly when in it's first form?[/quote]

“Prime Mutations
Log 11.402.5

Metroid Prime continues to feed and grow ever larger in the [b]impact crater caves[/b]. Its hunger knows no bounds, and it has begun to manifest unusual mutations since its breach. These include armor plating on its epidermis and mechanical outgrowths that generate defense screens. These screens render it invulnerable to most weapon systems, but a flaw in the mutation leads to increased vulnerability to certain weapons. It compensates for this by shifting the screens quickly. This latest development concerns Security units greatly: they feel it's a matter of time before Metroid Prime corrects this defect and renders itself invulnerable to all weaponry. Containment would be nigh impossible if this were to occur.”

“Chozo Artifacts
Log 11.452.8

We are particularly interested in a number of curious Chozo Artifacts we have been able to recover from a number of religious sites on Tallon IV. These relics resonate with power, and yet we are unable to harness them in any way. Science Team is attempting to fuse them together with Phazon, believing that a link might exist between them. We know that these Artifacts are linked to the Chozo Temple that block [b]full access[/b] to the Impact Crater. We have yet to crack this enigma, however. Command grows impatient regarding this matter: results must be produced soon.”

The Pirates, and apparently Metroid Prime as well, only have access to specific parts of the crater, but do not have access to the main source of the phazon.

“Artifact Site
Log 10.308.0

Field team reports are in on an aged structure of alien design built on the surface of Tallon IV. Studies show this structure projects a containment field. This field bars access to [b]a prime source of energy within a deep crater[/b]. Science Team believes the field is powered by a number of strange Chozo Artifacts. We have found some of these relics and studies on them have begun. As this field could hinder future energy production operations on Tallon IV, we must dismantle it as soon as possible. If this means the destruction of the Chozo Artifacts, it will be done.”

The Metroid Prime is not the prime energy source, and I think the Chozo Lore even states that the field contains the phazon worm, not the Metroid Prime. I am sorry, but I simply do not see any plot holes here.

[quote="Spine Shark”] "[s]he has completed numerous missions..." is nothing resembling telling the story of MZM.[/quote]

What? Zero Mission is the first mission, which means saying that Samus had missions before Metroid does describe Zero Mission.

[quote="Spine Shark"] So why are yours automatically right, while his are wrong?[/quote]

He assumes that the text means something other than what it says, but there is no such implication. The text can only be read one way. The way I read it is not “my way” it is the only way.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] I just realized something else when playing Super Metroid: At the end of Super, when you are against MB's second form, she shoots out a beam from her eye (The 300 damage one) that you can't avoid. In ZM, MB has a less powerful version that doesn't always hit. With Metroid, MB justs sits there, with very little to defend herself with.

Why would MB lose this ability, (Along with her eye) from ZM to Metroid, only to regain a more powerful version in Super Metroid?[/quote]

Metroid’s Mother Brain is much harder to defeat than Zero Mission’s. It probably lacks the eye beam because it concentrates on firing the gun turrets and Rinka, which are much harder to avoid.

[quote="ajbolt89"] I just want to mention really quickly that you stated in response to my rhetorical question, "Is it wrong for me to be human?" that Yes, it is wrong.

Elaborate. I'd like you to explain, outside of the debate, just for me, why you feel this way. I'm actually curious now.[/quote]

I will send you a private message about it.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] I was reading over your presentation again and came upon this: 
(Sorry for leaving you with three different posts to respond to, but I keep finding new information)

Dai Grepher wrote: 
“All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities.”

There would be no reason to presume they were dead when they were all in the ship or Chozodia.

Yes, but when the Mothership was destroyed, wouldn't that have also killed any surviving pirates that were aboard or in the immediate area?[/quote]

This is not when the presumption was made though. This was made at “zero hour” when Tourian exploded and the ships in orbit retreated.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Since that's the only other location that you see them in the game besides dead in Toruian, it makes sense. Plus, since Samus is the one that destroyed both Tourian and the Mothership, she is in fact responsible for the deaths of the space pirates.[/quote]

Samus did not set the self-destruct sequence on either of them, though this is not the issue. Killing the Space Pirates was her doing and it is what the log mentions. However, the Metroids also killed the pirates in Zero Mission. This is seen before Samus enters Tourian.

Also, the point of this quote is that it records the destruction of the underground facilities, which does not actually happen in Zero Mission.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] According to the Metroid Prime, the pirates were about to BEGIN their studies of the Metroids. This shows that they hadn't done much of anything when they were on Zebes, so how would they have an ADVANCED knowledge of them, like Metroid suggests?[/quote]

That is not what it states. It just states that they were ready to begin researching them. That does not imply that no research was done before hand. In fact, the manual states that they had been researching Metroids for many years before this.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Zero Hour is never defined as being right when MB is destroyed. It could be after the Mothership is.[/quote]

“Zebes has fallen. All ground personnel are presumed dead, either killed by the Hunter clad in metal or in the subsequent destruction of the underground facilities. Our research frigates were in orbit at zero hour and managed to retreat.”

This suggests that zero hour occurred as Tourian exploded since it mentions this after mentioning the destruction of the underground facilities. Remember, this was made to refer to Metroid. The explosion was visible from orbit but the ship’s explosion was only a fraction of that. The destruction of Mother Brain is also when the planetary defenses would fall, which would be the only reason why the pirates would want to retreat from Zebes. There is also the fact that Samus leaves Zebes at this time as well. Had these ships been in orbit, they would have likely shot her escape pod down.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Once again, the exact time frame is never stated there. They could've begun rebuilding after the Mothership was destroyed and Samus long gone. Besides, it also mentions that they HEADED to Zebes. This means that these specific survivors weren't on the planet to begin with, so the fact that there weren't any survivors on Zebes doesn't mean a thing.[/quote]

OK. I think we just disagree on when zero hour was.

[quote="Lazylen"] He got word that it was actually a prequel a while ago from a NOA employee, if that means anything.[/quote]

No one got an e-mail that said that specifically, at least not to the best of my knowledge. However, we did get e-mails that said the game was not a remake.

[quote="Kejardon"] [i]What evidence do you have that Nintendo was referring to Metroid in those quotes?[/i]

You refuse to consider my proof because you are biased. (OOC: hey, this one's actually true! XD)[/quote]

You are avoiding the question. Post your evidence or else I claim victory.

[quote="Kejardon"] [i]Actually it is, since you are the one claiming that my evidence does not prove that Zero Mission is the first mission. I thought you would know better than to say something as false as that. Also, had I not replied to this, you would have then accused me of ignoring your "evidence".[/quote]

[quote="Kejardon"] That is your opinion.[/quote]

Fine, but you must still post your evidence that the proof I found does not indicate that Zero Mission is the first mission.

[quote="Kejardon"] You have no evidence that calling Metroid the 'first mission' is a mistake. 
(OOC: One of the things I expected was that you would say they decided it's not a remake. You have very selective reading)[/quote]

I said one person, not “they”. Also, there is undeniable proof that Nintendo made a mistake in that reference. Fact: “…had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid prologue.
Metroid is proven to not be the first mission. Hence calling it that is a mistake.

[quote="Kejardon"] That description makes it undeniably clear Zero Mission is a remake. You cannot deny this fact.[/quote]

Expansion can take place before, during or after a story. Zero Mission is a backstory expansion as Sakamoto stated. Zero Mission expands on Metroid’s backstory and sets the stage for it.

[quote="Kejardon"] Nintendo would not make such a stupid mistake. You can not arbitrarily deny evidence whenever it doesn't fit your theory.[/quote]

I have proven that it was a mistake.

[quote="Kejardon"] You said earlier Metroid is the first mission. You can't flipflop like that between points. Your theory is false.[/quote]

I never stated that Metroid was the first mission.

[quote="Kejardon"] This is still your interpretation of "Not necessarily", right?[/quote]

I have no interpretation of words. I understand words as they exist by definition.

1. inevitably: inevitably, or in every case
This route isn't necessarily the best one.

2. unavoidably: following as an unavoidable result or consequence
Voting was a necessarily slow and complex process.

[quote="BlueGlass"] http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=441

Note the part where it says Quote: 
Metroid: Zero Mission retold the story of the original Metroid

When this was posted in the G4 forums, you made no response to it.

Also, if that isn't enough, there is a link on the right side of the page to the MZM page where it says Sakamoto decided he wanted to remake the original title that has become so famous and important to Nintendo fans.[/quote]

I thought I did. Well first of all, the link takes you to an article written by one person. Who is to say that this person knows his facts? The Zero Mission article does say that the game was a retelling and a remake, but it does not actually prove this. On that same page it states the following:

“Samus Aran relives the original adventure that has become a legend. Exploring the mysterious ruins of Planet Zebes will expose several dark truths of [b]the origin of the planet[/b] and the mysterious organism controlling the [b]cancer like virus haunting the atmosphere[/b].

Now I do not know about your version of Zero Mission but I know mine does not feature any such storyline.

“Responding to the [b]stress signal[/b], the Intergalactic Federation dispatches bounty hunter Samus Aran to embark on her Zero Mission. Those who recall the original Zebes adventure will find that this Zero Mission is a completely new interpretation of a famous event. New bosses, new items, new techniques, new storyline details, redesigned and new environments all await Samus Aran on her most famous adventure ever.[/quote]

Also a false storyline element. This misinformation makes me doubt the credibility of this article, and makes me wonder if it just the opinion of one non-official editor.

“Development Summary 
Yoshio Sakamoto and the R&D1 team behind Metroid Fusion immediately got to working on a second original Metroid installment for the Game Boy Advance. [b]Sakamoto decided he wanted to remake the original title[/b] that has become so famous and important to Nintendo fans. Sakamoto [b]kept the basic premise of the original adventure[/b], but has increased the overall content by [b]about 40%[/b]. Basically what you have is a game that [b]resembles the original Metroid in scenario and level design about half the time[/b], because the [b]other half is completely new[/b]. 
The success of Metroid in the American markets, and moderate sales in Japan region have re-established an internal interest in Metroid for Yoshio Sakamoto and the R&D1 team.[/quote]

Like I said, this could easily be one person’s interpretation of the IGN interview, where Sakamoto made comments that could have been mistaken for implying that the entire game was a remake. Even this article sounds as if one who wrote it is not sure on what was actually said. In some parts he states that Sakamoto said this, but then also says that it merely resembles Metroid. Then he states that 40% is new. Where did this estimate come from, and if this is official then why aren’t there any quotes to support the information?
 
“Game Features

Loosely based on the 1986 NES hit 
Cinematics tell the story like never before 
Eeprom Save 
Art Gallery”

This is what makes me think that this was just a poorly researched article. After saying that it is a remake it is still only “loosely based on” Metroid? That does not make sense. It seems to me like this person read the interview and interpreted some points correctly, like the “loosely based” point, but got the main idea behind it all wrong.

This is not an official review anyway, so I do not consider this as anything more than just another remake theory. Of course the obvious flaws in describing the actual storyline behind the game make this conclusion much more valid.

[quote="Lazylen"] actually, the MZM being a "retelling", not a "remake" of Metroid is what i've always been arguing. that wasnt my post though.

MZM being a retelling makes the most sense, as then it doesnt go right after Metroid. Instead, it can go anywhere in the timeline, and things can be forgotten or added in for bragging rights, you know?[/quote]

The problem I have with that is that it is not an accurate telling of Metroid’s events, as proven by the presentation, and it does not make the most sense. Moreover, there is no evidence that this was an inaccurate retelling. It is just the opinion of a few review sites.

Prime Hunter

2006-04-05 11:33:04 am

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Prime Hunter:

How could Super Metroid be a remake of Metroid? THE PROLOGUE shows that she visited Zebes first, went ot SR388, got the Larva, and THEN went back to Zebes. Those are the FACTS, since you seem to rely heavily on them.

Yes, but this is working under the assumption that Zero Mission is made to replace Metroid. Therefore, for this hypothetical discussion about Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid because of the same reasons listed for Zero Mission being one, Super Metroid would then be referring to Zero Mission in the flashback.

Ok, so why would they have Super refer to ZM TEN years before Zero Mission even came out? How would they even know that there was going to be a new game on Zebes at that time?

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Look at the title, "Super Metroid" indicates Metroid being expanded. Now, can you prove this idea wrong without using game images, storyline differences, quotes from the director, and information on the Nintendo website?

Could it be, perhaps, that it's called SUPER Metroid because it came out on the SUPER Nintendo Entertainment System?

Think about it: Mario Sixty-Four came out on the Nintendo SIXTY-FOUR. Mario 64 is NOT the 64th Mario game in existance. It makes perfect sense to me.

I have other points I want to make, but I have to go to class now. They will come later.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Prime Hunter"]How could Super Metroid be a remake of Metroid? THE PROLOGUE shows that she visited Zebes first, went ot SR388, got the Larva, and THEN went back to Zebes. Those are the FACTS, since you seem to rely heavily on them.[/quote]
Yes, but this is working under the assumption that Zero Mission is made to replace Metroid. Therefore, for this hypothetical discussion about Super Metroid being a remake of Metroid because of the same reasons listed for Zero Mission being one, Super Metroid would then be referring to Zero Mission in the flashback.[/quote]

Ok, so why would they have Super refer to ZM TEN years before Zero Mission even came out? How would they even know that there was going to be a new game on Zebes at that time?

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Look at the title, "Super Metroid" indicates Metroid being expanded. Now, can you prove this idea wrong without using game images, storyline differences, quotes from the director, and information on the Nintendo website?[/quote]

Could it be, perhaps, that it's called SUPER Metroid because it came out on the SUPER Nintendo Entertainment System?

Think about it: Mario Sixty-Four came out on the Nintendo SIXTY-FOUR. Mario 64 is NOT the 64th Mario game in existance. It makes perfect sense to me.

I have other points I want to make, but I have to go to class now. They will come later.

Dr. Trence

2006-04-05 12:20:25 pm

oh my god Dai, now you think Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid?! you know, your logic is starting to make me really laugh, and im serious. you have no clue what youre talking about. who knows, next thing youre going to say is "I have proof that Metroid Prime wasnt never a metroid game!" haha try to fight this now

1: beginning intro says samus battled the metroids on zebes, (referring to metroid 1)
2: started second mission, found baby metroid
3: "baby" metroid
4: totally redesigned brinstar
5: mother brain 2nd form
6: different tourain
7: original tourain destroyed
8: wrecked ship
9: flash backs to her previous metroid missions

dude, seriously, what would be the point of calling it "Super Metroid", if it was a remake to metroid? super is referring to the metroid that samus found on SR388...there would be NO point to call it super metroid if it was a remake.

Tahngarthor

2006-04-05 01:32:52 pm

Bangaa Bishop

"Super" is merely a prefix added to most games on the super nintendo that had an incarnation on the NES (in most cases). i.e. Super Star Wars, Super Metroid, Super Etc....
it does not imply anything other than it is the Super Nintendo version and/or it is somehow better than what came before it.

Dai Grepher

2006-04-05 01:42:37 pm

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Ok, so why would they have Super refer to ZM TEN years before Zero Mission even came out? How would they even know that there was going to be a new game on Zebes at that time?

They would not be referring to Zero Mission, they would just be referring to a mission that took place before Metroid II. Zero Mission would then be remade to be the mission that was referred to.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Could it be, perhaps, that it's called SUPER Metroid because it came out on the SUPER Nintendo Entertainment System?

So did Super Castlevania, but it was a remake of the first game(supposedly).

Quote from Prime Hunter:

Think about it: Mario Sixty-Four came out on the Nintendo SIXTY-FOUR. Mario 64 is NOT the 64th Mario game in existance. It makes perfect sense to me.

And the remake was called Super Mario 64 DS! See, they just add the system name to the title to indicate that it is a remake.

Quote from Prime Hunter:

I have other points I want to make, but I have to go to class now. They will come later.

While doing that, keep in mind what I said about not really believing that Super Metroid is a remake, and that it takes in-game evidence to prove that it is not a remake, just as I use for the Zero Mission discussion.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

oh my god Dai, now you think Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid?!

No, I do not. I am using it as a hypothetical argument to show where the logic behind the Zero Mission remake argument is flawed.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

1: beginning intro says samus battled the metroids on zebes, (referring to metroid 1)

Prove that it is referring to Metroid and not simply a mission that takes place before Return of Samus.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

2: started second mission, found baby metroid

Perhaps that was the intended story for Metroid, but it was not made because of graphical limitations of the NES.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

3: "baby" metroid

That is simply additional storyline they implemented when they remade Metroid into Super Metroid.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

4: totally redesigned brinstar

Remakes redesign things. You cannot blame the developers for not making areas match up exactly.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

5: mother brain 2nd form

Expanded storyline.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

6: different tourain

(Where have I heard that before?) Again, another example of the developers not caring enough to make everything match 100%.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

7: original tourain destroyed

That Tourian could be the one from Zero Mission.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

8: wrecked ship

What about it? That is simply an additional area. Remakes sometimes expand upon the originals remember?

Quote from Dr. Trence:

9: flash backs to her previous metroid missions

Zero Mission was made to fit that flashback. Therefore the flashback could be of Zero Mission's adventure.

Quote from Dr. Trence:

dude, seriously, what would be the point of calling it "Super Metroid", if it was a remake to metroid? super is referring to the metroid that samus found on SR388...there would be NO point to call it super metroid if it was a remake.

"Super" indicates advancement. They took Metroid and expanded upon it and remade it then called it Super Metroid because it was bigger and better than before.

Please refute each one of my counter points. Then I will state why I did all of this.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Ok, so why would they have Super refer to ZM TEN years before Zero Mission even came out? How would they even know that there was going to be a new game on Zebes at that time?[/quote]

They would not be referring to Zero Mission, they would just be referring to a mission that took place before Metroid II. Zero Mission would then be remade to be the mission that was referred to.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Could it be, perhaps, that it's called SUPER Metroid because it came out on the SUPER Nintendo Entertainment System?[/quote]

So did Super Castlevania, but it was a remake of the first game(supposedly).

[quote="Prime Hunter"] Think about it: Mario Sixty-Four came out on the Nintendo SIXTY-FOUR. Mario 64 is NOT the 64th Mario game in existance. It makes perfect sense to me.[/quote]

And the remake was called Super Mario 64 DS! See, they just add the system name to the title to indicate that it is a remake.

[quote="Prime Hunter"] I have other points I want to make, but I have to go to class now. They will come later.[/quote]

While doing that, keep in mind what I said about not really believing that Super Metroid is a remake, and that it takes in-game evidence to prove that it is not a remake, just as I use for the Zero Mission discussion.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] oh my god Dai, now you think Super Metroid is a remake of Metroid?![/quote]

No, I do not. I am using it as a hypothetical argument to show where the logic behind the Zero Mission remake argument is flawed.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 1: beginning intro says samus battled the metroids on zebes, (referring to metroid 1)[/quote]

Prove that it is referring to Metroid and not simply a mission that takes place before Return of Samus.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 2: started second mission, found baby metroid[/quote]

Perhaps that was the intended story for Metroid, but it was not made because of graphical limitations of the NES.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 3: "baby" metroid[/quote]

That is simply additional storyline they implemented when they remade Metroid into Super Metroid.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 4: totally redesigned brinstar[/quote]

Remakes redesign things. You cannot blame the developers for not making areas match up exactly.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 5: mother brain 2nd form[/quote]

Expanded storyline.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 6: different tourain[/quote]

:roll: (Where have I heard that before?) Again, another example of the developers not caring enough to make everything match 100%.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 7: original tourain destroyed[/quote]

That Tourian could be the one from Zero Mission.
 
[quote="Dr. Trence"] 8: wrecked ship [/quote]

What about it? That is simply an additional area. Remakes sometimes expand upon the originals remember?

[quote="Dr. Trence"] 9: flash backs to her previous metroid missions[/quote]

Zero Mission was made to fit that flashback. Therefore the flashback could be of Zero Mission's adventure.

[quote="Dr. Trence"] dude, seriously, what would be the point of calling it "Super Metroid", if it was a remake to metroid? super is referring to the metroid that samus found on SR388...there would be NO point to call it super metroid if it was a remake.[/quote]

"Super" indicates advancement. They took Metroid and expanded upon it and remade it then called it Super Metroid because it was bigger and better than before.

Please refute each one of my counter points. Then I will state why I did all of this.

SABERinBLUE

2006-04-05 01:49:09 pm

Cook of the Sea

SM64DS was really a port, man. I mean yeah, the cap system got changed around, but really it was just a port with some added features.

Kejardon

2006-04-05 02:18:04 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

<-- Still arguing the same way as Dai, except when OOC.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

You are avoiding the question. Post your evidence or else I claim victory.

I already answered your question. You can say you're right if you want, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't prove it.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Fine, but you must still post your evidence that the proof I found does not indicate that Zero Mission is the first mission.

You gave no proof, you just twisted words to mean what you want.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Fact: “…had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid prologue.
Metroid is proven to not be the first mission. Hence calling it that is a mistake.

Metroid is the first mission in the context of the game series. Nintendo called it the first mission on purpose. You simply refuse to admit the truth.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Expansion can take place before, during or after a story. Zero Mission is a backstory expansion as Sakamoto stated. Zero Mission expands on Metroid’s backstory and sets the stage for it.

An expansion enlarges the original. Zero Mission would not enlarge the NES Metroid as a prequel because the events take place long before Metroid does. It has to be directly connected to the NES Metroid's storyline to be an expansion.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

Nintendo would not make such a stupid mistake. You can not arbitrarily deny evidence whenever it doesn't fit your theory.

I have proven that it was a mistake.

No you haven't. You have proven it doesn't fit your theory.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

Quote from Kejardon:

This is still your interpretation of "Not necessarily", right?

I have no interpretation of words. I understand words as they exist by definition.

(Still handling this one OOC)
... Words, as they exist, are specific structures of visual symbols. They have no meaning besides the meaning people assign them. The definitions in the dictionary are common interpretations of words (with the hope that the reader already knows the common interpretations of the words used in the definition).
Or, to phrase my point a bit more directly, the dictionary is defined by human interpretations. Human interpretations are not defined by the dictionary.
And 'Interpretation' and 'understanding' are fairly interchangable in this context.
I'll just ignore your self-contradiction, assume you said 'yes', and move on.

Quote from Dai Grepher:

"Not necessarily" means that something is NOT even though other things suggest it is.

Quote from Some dictionary was:

1. inevitably: inevitably, or in every case
This route isn't necessarily the best one.
2. unavoidably: following as an unavoidable result or consequence
Voting was a necessarily slow and complex process.

'Necessarily' means 'unconditionally'.
'Not necessarily' means 'conditionally'.
'Not necessarily a remaking of the backstory' means 'conditionally a remaking of the backstory'.
There's nothing about 'necessarily' that says other things suggest it's true. 'Necessarily' is a statement of the requirement of something.

<-- Still arguing the same way as Dai, except when OOC.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]You are avoiding the question. Post your evidence or else I claim victory.[/quote]
I already answered your question. You can say you're right if you want, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't prove it.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Fine, but you must still post your evidence that the proof I found does not indicate that Zero Mission is the first mission.[/quote]
You gave no proof, you just twisted words to mean what you want.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Fact: “…had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid prologue.
Metroid is proven to not be the first mission. Hence calling it that is a mistake.[/quote]
Metroid is the first mission in the context of the game series. Nintendo called it the first mission on purpose. You simply refuse to admit the truth.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]Expansion can take place before, during or after a story. Zero Mission is a backstory expansion as Sakamoto stated. Zero Mission expands on Metroid’s backstory and sets the stage for it.[/quote]
An expansion enlarges the original. Zero Mission would not enlarge the NES Metroid as a prequel because the events take place long before Metroid does. It has to be directly connected to the NES Metroid's storyline to be an expansion.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"]Nintendo would not make such a stupid mistake. You can not arbitrarily deny evidence whenever it doesn't fit your theory.[/quote]
I have proven that it was a mistake.[/quote]
No you haven't. You have proven it doesn't fit your theory.

[quote="Dai Grepher"][quote="Kejardon"] This is still your interpretation of "Not necessarily", right?[/quote]
I have no interpretation of words. I understand words as they exist by definition.[/quote]
(Still handling this one OOC)
... Words, as they exist, are specific structures of visual symbols. They have no meaning besides the meaning people assign them. The definitions in the dictionary are common interpretations of words (with the hope that the reader already knows the common interpretations of the words used in the definition).
Or, to phrase my point a bit more directly, the dictionary is defined by human interpretations. Human interpretations are not defined by the dictionary.
And 'Interpretation' and 'understanding' are fairly interchangable in this context.
I'll just ignore your self-contradiction, assume you said 'yes', and move on.

[quote="Dai Grepher"]"Not necessarily" means that something is NOT even though other things suggest it is.[/quote]
[quote="Some dictionary was"]1. inevitably: inevitably, or in every case
This route isn't necessarily the best one.
2. unavoidably: following as an unavoidable result or consequence
Voting was a necessarily slow and complex process.[/quote]
'Necessarily' means 'unconditionally'.
'Not necessarily' means 'conditionally'.
'Not necessarily a remaking of the backstory' means 'conditionally a remaking of the backstory'.
There's nothing about 'necessarily' that says other things suggest it's true. 'Necessarily' is a statement of the requirement of something.

Samu-san

2006-04-05 02:21:34 pm

Look, it's a freakin' GAME. I frankly could care less if it was a remake or not. Not all games have to be exactly like to original. Besides, not everyone will memorize the layout of any certain game. And besides, how can there be two Mother Brains, and 2 of each Kraid and Ridley's?

-Samu.

Dragonfangs

2006-04-05 02:29:23 pm

This entire post is made under the assumption that Dai is suggesting the item locations in Super Metroid resemble the item locations in Metroid to the same degree as Zero mission. If that is not the case, this post has little to no significance.

To be fair, you cannot say that the bombs are in a different place because the room before the bombs looks different. The only real item that's in metroid but not in ZM is the Ice Beam in Brinstar, however, the Ice Beam is still in the correct place as there was an Ice Beam in Norfair in Metroid as well, they simply chose to not have the same upgrade at multiple locations in ZM.

For Super, the only item that's really in the same place as it was in Metroid is the Morph Ball. There are also some expansion that are in the same places, but that can easily be attributed to it being on the same planet.

Several items were added to Zero Mission, Speed Booster, Super Missiles, Plasma, Space Jump, Gravity suit and Power Grip.
The ones that come after the suitless sequence don't really count as you never got to this point in Metroid. The addition of the unknown items are arguable seeing as they don't activate until after Mother Brain and could've easily been left out of Samus's first/the Pirates telling of Metroid as they never served any purpose in the story because it only goes to the defeat of mother brain. I believe these extra items were added to enhance gameplay and make make the gameplay seem more similar to the later Metroids, which have far cleaner physics among other things.

This entire post is made under the assumption that Dai is suggesting the item locations in Super Metroid resemble the item locations in Metroid to the same degree as Zero mission. If that is not the case, this post has little to no significance.

To be fair, you cannot say that the bombs are in a different place because the room before the bombs looks different. The only real item that's in metroid but not in ZM is the Ice Beam in Brinstar, however, the Ice Beam is still in the correct place as there was an Ice Beam in Norfair in Metroid as well, they simply chose to not have the same upgrade at multiple locations in ZM.

For Super, the only item that's really in the same place as it was in Metroid is the Morph Ball. There are also some expansion that are in the same places, but that can easily be attributed to it being on the same planet.

Several items were added to Zero Mission, Speed Booster, Super Missiles, Plasma, Space Jump, Gravity suit and Power Grip. 
The ones that come after the suitless sequence don't really count as you never got to this point in Metroid. The addition of the unknown items are arguable seeing as they don't activate until after Mother Brain and could've easily been left out of Samus's first/the Pirates telling of Metroid as they never served any purpose in the story because it only goes to the defeat of mother brain. I believe these extra items were added to enhance gameplay and make make the gameplay seem more similar to the later Metroids, which have far cleaner physics among other things.

Dr. Trence

2006-04-05 03:07:44 pm

Quote from Dai:

Prove that it is referring to Metroid and not simply a mission that takes place before Return of Samus.

Intro of Super Metroid: "I first batteled the metroids on planet zebes. It was there that i foiled the plans of the space pirate leader mother brain to use the creatures to attack galactic civilization..." This is referring to her first mission fighting the mother brain, which is in Metroid.

Quote from Dai:

Quote from Dr. Trence:

6: different tourain

(Where have I heard that before?) Again, another example of the developers not caring enough to make everything match 100%.

Nope. The space pirates remade a new tourain because samus destroyed the original in the first Metroid. The developers made this new tourain just because they wanted to make the game more "challenging". If they made the same tourain, then you would know where it originaly be, and you would know how to get to it.

Quote from Dai:

Quote from Dr. Trence:

2: started second mission, found baby metroid

Perhaps that was the intended story for Metroid, but it was not made because of graphical limitations of the NES.

You are defenitly screwing up the story-line now. How do you expect the devolpers making two games into one? If they made samus first go to SR388, then that would easily mess up the time-line.

Quote from Dai:

Quote from Dr. Trence:

3: "baby" metroid

That is simply additional storyline they implemented when they remade Metroid into Super Metroid.

Nope. ROS first features the baby metroid she finds, then the story-lin carries on to Super Metroid when ridley steals the hatchling, thus not making it a remake of metroid, and making it a sequel to ROS.

Why do you think that all this all had to do with how the developers made it? It sounds like youre saying they didnt want to add any story-line to it and just make it how it sounds. All of this has to do with part of the story-line, not how the developers randomly made it look like.

[quote="Dai"]Prove that it is referring to Metroid and not simply a mission that takes place before Return of Samus.[/quote]
Intro of Super Metroid: "I first batteled the metroids on planet zebes. It was there that i foiled the plans of the space pirate leader mother brain to use the creatures to attack galactic civilization..." This is referring to her first mission fighting the mother brain, which is in Metroid.

[quote="Dai"][quote="Dr. Trence"]6: different tourain[/quote]

(Where have I heard that before?) Again, another example of the developers not caring enough to make everything match 100%.[/quote]
Nope. The space pirates remade a new tourain because samus destroyed the original in the first Metroid. The developers made this new tourain just because they wanted to make the game more "challenging". If they made the same tourain, then you would know where it originaly be, and you would know how to get to it.

[quote="Dai"][quote="Dr. Trence"]2: started second mission, found baby metroid[/quote]

Perhaps that was the intended story for Metroid, but it was not made because of graphical limitations of the NES.[/quote]
You are defenitly screwing up the story-line now. How do you expect the devolpers making two games into one? If they made samus first go to SR388, then that would easily mess up the time-line.

[quote="Dai"][quote="Dr. Trence"]3: "baby" metroid[/quote]

That is simply additional storyline they implemented when they remade Metroid into Super Metroid.[/quote]
Nope. ROS first features the baby metroid she finds, then the story-lin carries on to Super Metroid when ridley steals the hatchling, thus not making it a remake of metroid, and making it a sequel to ROS.

Why do you think that all this all had to do with how the developers made it? It sounds like youre saying they didnt want to add any story-line to it and just make it how it sounds. All of this has to do with part of the story-line, not how the developers randomly made it look like.

Supuh

2006-04-05 03:13:40 pm

Quote:

Besides the obvious flaw that Zero Mission would then have to show the elevator shaft from Brinstar cutting through that part of Tourian, this is also impossible. Tourian cannot be placed in Zero Mission where it is seen in Metroid. This is because it causes the elevator entering Tourian to intersect with the elevator leading down from Brinstar.

oh yea?

caverns may overlap, we're not living in a world of 2 dimensions. A cave can be laying infront of another on the same level without touching another. It's called a third dimension, even though the game is two-dimentional, it takes place in a world which has 3.

Tahngarthor

2006-04-05 04:31:07 pm

Bangaa Bishop

Quote:

Dr. Trence wrote:
4: totally redesigned brinstar

Remakes redesign things. You cannot blame the developers for not making areas match up exactly.

dont look now, but dai just shot himself in the foot.

ZM sure looks like a redesigned metroid to me! All you have to do is play the game to see this. forget all your "evidence" and facts. You're playing a redesigned metroid. Redesigned, and expanded. We may know the developer's logic and thinking, but one things clear: The game's close enough to be a "redesign", and therefore a remake.

Dragonfangs

2006-04-05 04:38:10 pm

I love how everyone thinks Dai is serious about Super being a remake of Metroid.

Prime Hunter

2006-04-05 05:29:47 pm

Quote from Dai Grepher:

"Super" indicates advancement.

OK, so explain games like:
- Super Mario Kart
- Super Mario RPG
- Super Smash Bros.
None of these games have ANY previous versions of themselves, only sequels. Yes, the Mario ones are part of the Mario series, but there was no previous Kart or RPG game with Mario in it.

Quote from Supuh:

A cave can be laying infront of another on the same level without touching another. It's called a third dimension, even though the game is two-dimentional, it takes place in a world which has 3.

Exactly: There can be cases of having a 2D map in a 3D world, and the Metroid series has an example: Metroid II. Think about how the map is setup. It overlaps itself numerous times, but the game is still a 2D game.

Now, for a new question: Why would the NES Metroid's prologue and the ZM Prologue be nearly identical if it wasn't supposed to be the same game? The ZM manual shows us that the NES Metroid is unlockable: If the ZM prologue was meant for that unlocked game, why not say so? IF the prologue is supposed to be the one for Metroid, why would it not even mention that Samus was on Zebes before, (Zero Mission) especially since the manual was designed for Zero Mission in the first place?

Besides, can you think of ANY other game that includes ITSELF in its own prologue?

[quote="Dai Grepher"]"Super" indicates advancement.[/quote]
OK, so explain games like:
 - Super Mario Kart
 - Super Mario RPG
 - Super Smash Bros.
None of these games have ANY previous versions of themselves, only sequels. Yes, the Mario ones are part of the Mario series, but there was no previous Kart or RPG game with Mario in it.

[quote="Supuh"]A cave can be laying infront of another on the same level without touching another. It's called a third dimension, even though the game is two-dimentional, it takes place in a world which has 3.[/quote]
Exactly: There can be cases of having a 2D map in a 3D world, and the Metroid series has an example: Metroid II. Think about how the map is setup. It overlaps itself numerous times, but the game is still a 2D game.

Now, for a new question: Why would the NES Metroid's prologue and the ZM Prologue be nearly identical if it wasn't supposed to be the same game? The ZM manual shows us that the NES Metroid is unlockable: If the ZM prologue was meant for that unlocked game, why not say so? [i][b]IF[/b][/i] the prologue is supposed to be the one for Metroid, why would it not even mention that Samus was on Zebes before, (Zero Mission) especially since the manual was designed for Zero Mission in the first place?

Besides, can you think of ANY other game that includes ITSELF in its own prologue?

UchihaSasuke

2006-04-05 05:46:42 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

but but... i thought Metroid 3 was a remake of #1...

[/sarcasm]

what's next? MP2 intended to be a Zelda game? Fusion being part of the Wario Land series? the arm cannon being a time travel device?

it's impressive how this debate has lasted.

SABERinBLUE

2006-04-05 06:53:06 pm

Cook of the Sea

Supuh, I could be wrong, but isn't that a picture of a pueblo? Are those even caves at all?