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MetalRidley
2006-04-02 04:04:46 pm
Quote from Dr. Trence:
so please, STOP this debate, if you try to carry it on, who knows, you might have a rep for the worlds most dumbest debater.




Can't we all just get along?
Seriously, calm down everybody. We're talking about videogames here.

Dai Grepher had an interesting idea. Yay for ideas! He might be right. He might be wrong. You can't change his mind; he can't change yours. Let's just let it go, ok?
Dr. Trence
2006-04-02 04:44:45 pm
thats what i was saying. he does have a interesting idea, but it isnt true. and that he is getting WAY into the debate. he thinks his little theroy will change the world, but it WONT.
Kejardon
2006-04-02 04:47:29 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Let's see... nope. Still avoiding my points. >_>

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Would you like marshmallows for your flames? Better yet, are you actually going to discuss the issue? If not then I am done replying to you.

All those were me pointing out that you are dressing up "I'm right and you're wrong" to sound intelligent, when you aren't offering even a bit of evidence.
If you want me to stop making fun of you, you could try using arguments that don't have huge gaping holes in them.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Numerous ways to say it, yet it was not.

I never said Nintendo should've made it clear that ZM is a remake of Metroid in the ad. I said the ad was being dramatic and the 'game' was simply left understood instead of being explicitly stated.
Nintendo seems to think drama works great and uses it a lot. It's not what I would do, but I don't make the decisions for Nintendo.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
That is why you make excuses. I thought that true Metroid fans sought the true timeline and regarded the facts. Why they are you fighting against the facts and trying to change them to fit your personal belief?

Personal insults... nothing about the argument.
I don't care about your insults, so I'm ignoring this.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
Have you tried googling the quote? It brings up tons of online stores to order the game from.

Well it seems that some online stores have questioned Nintendo about the game, but that does not mean that it is the official description.

... some? I google it and get 515 results. I google yours and get 304 results.
Oh, and on a forum they mention where the quote was first seen. It's a description of Metroid: Zero Mission in a Nintendo Preview Catalog.
It's an official product descrtiption. And Nintendo has spread that around more than they have the description you mentioned. You are blatantly wrong: This is not seen only by people that e-mail Nintendo, and the stores did not have to e-mail Nintendo to get that quote.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
The official description is found here:
http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856
That presents a completely different backstory though, so you will probably say it is not canon or just put your own meanings behind the words.

That sounds like you actually don't want to discuss it. Less work for me. :P

Quote from Kejardon, for the 2nd or 3rd time:
So... you admit that in certain cases 'First mission' should be replaced with 'First game'.
Quote from Dai Grepher:
No, I admit that calling Metroid the first mission is a mistake that many people avoid doing.
Quote from Kejardon, for the 3rd or 4th time:
So... you admit that in certain cases 'First mission' should be replaced with 'First game'.

You can't deny what I said without going back on what you said before that.
Not that that's stopped you on some points before.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Your argument is baseless, because you do not have any proof that they meant to refer to Metroid when the said "first mission" on the box and the website.

I have a precedent: They said 'First mission' in clear reference to Metroid. You admit that, even. That is evidence supporting my theory.
And then there're all the other points we're arguing.

Quote from Kejardon:
Oh no, Samus! Did you escape Zebes or did you manage to get back here to tell about your tale?
Quote from Dai Grepher:
That obviously refers to a mission that we have not seen before. It presents the event as an unknown. You also skipped the part regarding the capture of Metroids that exist on Zebes, once again showing that you disregard the facts.

You skipped the entire point about it being dramatic. Bring up your points in a seperate quote if you want, but stop avoiding my points.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
So where is your proof that Nintendo is overly dramatic when it comes to factual information?
...
Pretending that what's in front of you isn't really there generally doesn't make it go away.
Actually, come to think of it, that would probably work well on you. But it doesn't work on evidence.

And to bring up the literallism thread again, a literal interpretation is still an interpretation, and is not necessarily true. You have not shown any evidence that the text should only be read literally, without any connotations.
On a side note, you know what 'necessarily' means by now, right?
Tahngarthor
2006-04-02 06:00:34 pm
Bangaa Bishop
Quote:
Tahngarthor wrote:
You really havent convinced (almost) anyone of anything here, so why do you continue? As much as you would like to think otherwise, you are not in the majority here.


Not here, but in the Metroid community the prequel side is the majority.


Correction: In the Metroid community the "we dont really give a crap we just want to play the freaking game and have fun" side is the majority.

Quote:
Tahngarthor wrote:
(you'd think after so many Wall-o-text posts and basically no changed opinions, even from people who made detailed, intelligent responses, that dai would see this).


The only things your side has submitted are opinions, which I respect but do not regard as facts. Others have asked valid questions that have lead me to make strong points proving that Zero Mission is indeed a prequel. Lastly, none of you have refuted any of the evidence that I have brought up, and a few of you are even twisting the facts to suit your own theories. That is just wrong. You all should be searching for the truth, not making things up to keep believing in the remake theory.


That's what you're doing, not us. I could inscribe the factual content of your points on the head of a pin. You've submitted just as many opinions here as anyone else.

One of the things I dont really understand, is why you came all the way over here just to tell us you think ZM is a prequel. Do you have anything else to contribute? I'd really like to hear about it if you do. Otherwise you're just digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole within this community as you continue to post, dissect, twist, play with words, call opinions and theories fact, etc. etc.  If your only purpose is is to keep hammering your wooden nail into a steel wall then you should leave.

I swear to god this is my last post. I've had enough of this crap and I'm gonna go try running MP Hunters again, which is a hell of a lot more fun then arguing (this stopped being debate a long time ago) with you.
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-02 06:08:29 pm
Cook of the Sea
You know, this same game manual that said Metroid I wasn't Samus's first mission also said she was a guy.
Dr. Trence
2006-04-02 06:59:40 pm
To Dai: dude, seriously, whats your problem? is this going to be your only contrubution to the fourm? Is this what you do on every game board? if i were you (like i said in my earlier post) i would either leave or post someone where else. and the reason im bringing this up is because i know your gonna ignore my long post i made. so really: even if it is true WE (US, THIS COMMUNITY) DONT CARE. you have proven yourself to us that you think that your the man and that you know everything. what we care about is if someone found a sequence breaking trick in one of the games and made it true, WE dont care if ZM is a prequel. face it, we won, a long time ago. now, read my other post, and try to go against that
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-02 07:02:12 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from Dr. Trence:
and the reason im bringing this up is because i know your gonna ignore my long post i made. so really: even if it is true WE (US, THIS COMMUNITY) DONT CARE.


Speak for yourself.  Sure this is a pretty off-the-wall debate, but at least it's not spam or crap like that.  If you don't care, why are you posting in the thread?
Dr. Trence
2006-04-02 07:19:38 pm
i dont care, but by reading Dai's posts, i see that hes not going to give up, and continue fighting with his silly logic. so, if you want to delete my other post, you can. that wasnt neccesary, i was just in a bad mood, but im ok. but i hope that my other post will be my last, permanetly, so, just delete my other spam-ish post. or keep it.. >_>
ajbolt89
2006-04-02 10:27:32 pm
lol no way
I'm willing to be straight-up: I care because I want to win. I want to see our team, our group of beliefs beat out Dai's, because, as I've made clear, I simply don't like him. So I stay on, I look at this topic at this point, not because I really care where MZM fits into the storyline (mostly because I will not be dissuaded), but rather because I want to see Dai beaten, and I want to laugh at him when it happens.

Is it wrong for me to be human?
Dr. Trence
2006-04-02 11:03:29 pm
not. at. all. im almost un-human most of the day :p

but i dont know what to say. I care for us to win, but i dont care about dais silly logic. im not really in the argument, but i want to see you guys beat him. i havent been in this at all really. Dai thinks he can outsmart us, but with our power....we can beat him. i guess this means im in the arguement. but i know dai wont win against Aj, or transience. there living legends, and Dai is just another fake, who thinks HE is the man of the house. Dai: theres NO way you can win, so admit it, or turn and run away..caus were goin' full blast!
Dai Grepher
2006-04-03 04:10:13 am
Quote from Prime Hunter:
No, because in Super she only heads to Zebes AFTER Ridley steals the Metroid larva from the station. She is never ordered to go there, she goes on her own. With Zero Mission and Metroid, she has orders to investigate Zebes. She is sent there on missions, not because she chooses to go.


Yeah but if Super Metroid is a remake then that just means the story was changed. Remakes change things, remember? How do you know that Super Metroid did not simply change the story so no orders were given? Or better yet, how do you know that Super Metroid simply did not omit those orders to save production time in remaking the game?

Quote from Prime Hunter:
Plus, Super has CLEAR in-game evidence that it takes place long after her original visit to Zebes. (With the prologue and destroyed Tourian) As this debate has proven, there is still some confusion between Zero Mission and its relation to Metroid.


OK, but what if Zero Mission was made to fill the gap that Super Metroid caused? If Super Metroid remade Metroid, then where did the destroyed Tourian come from? How do you know that Zero Mission was not made fill that story gap for Super Metroid?

Quote from Spine Shark:
If we're having an argument, but have to stop, then come back later, one of us might say, "where did we leave off?" That indicates a point in the conversation.


Doesn’t that indicate that the question is what points were last discussed? I mean, if you did ask that, how many people would reply by giving you the date of the last post? None, and that is because you are not asking for a date or a time, you are asking for substance, material.

Quote from Spine Shark:
If we were to really analogize this with your argument, then you would be telling us that King Kong is not a remake because 98-year-old Fay Wray did not play Ann Darrow in Jackson's version.


Not at all. This is like you people telling me that it is a remake of Planet of the Apes just because there are monkeys in both movies.

Quote from Spine Shark:
The remake argument is based on the idea that Metroid 1 is no longer "canon"...which means that it doesn't matter what stuff looked like in that game, or what the backstory says. Anything that is inconsistent is assumed to be correct in Zero Mission by people who believe that version.


If you notice, I do not use Metroid as a counter source of information, rather as the only source that is accurate with the other games in the series. To disprove Zero Mission’s canonicity as a remake I use Super Metroid and Metroid Prime, which Zero Mission must be consistent with in order to be a canon remake. According to those games, the only canon game that can connect to them is the NES Metroid.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Metroid 1 is not a telling of Metroid 1. Metroid 1 is the events of Metroid 1 happening while you press the D-Pad and the A, B, and Select buttons. Metroid II does not feature a telling of Metroid 1. Metroid 3 includes a telling of a small part of Metroid 1. Metroid Prime has allusions to the events of the events which came before it, from the Pirates' perspective.


The Prime manual covers Metroid as well. Who told the tale that time?

Quote from Spine Shark:
Metroid Fusion may include references to Metroid 1 (Hell if I know). Samus has never told her full story because the battle with the charge beamst, acid worm, real kraid, imago, the stealth sequence, and iron ted battle had never been told before.


That is not what the quote says though. She said that she would finally tell the tale, not that she would finally tell the parts of the tale she did not tell before this.

See, you are disregarding facts from the game and making up excuses. No one here can rightfully accuse me of doing that, but you are doing it deliberately.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Dai, our evidence is as substantial as yours. What I guess you don't understand is the fact (to use your own too-oft thrown around word) that logic is ALSO a form of evidence.


No it is not. Logic differs from person to person and it is not always sound. Therefore it is not evidence, merely a form of reasoning. If you people have such evidence, then list each point right now.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Look, you've got your pictures and your text, which is great, but your logic is completely backwards and circular.


Then you admit that logic is not a form of evidence. Nice.

Quote from ajbolt89:
You make the assumption about what Sakamoto was feeling and thinking in his reply to IGN's question. Clearly, because you said so, he must have simply ignored that part of the question.


What he said speaks for itself. He did ignore what the guy said because it was not a part of the question. Sakamoto merely answered the question, which was totally unrelated to the game being a remake or not. In the other question, when it actually pertained to the storyline being remade or not, Sakamoto does correct him by saying that it is not a remake of the backstory.

Quote from ajbolt89:
And that is also, according to you, evidence that Nintendo isn't trying to confuse their customers. Because Sakamoto didn't correct the IGN interviewer, it's clear as day that either he agreed with the interviewer's presumption about the timeline status of MZM, and didn't feel the need to correct him on a non-issue, or... Nintendo doesn't care about confusing their customers.


Or that Sakamoto simply disregarded it as a mistake and answered what was asked of him. You do not know that this is not true so you cannot claim that Nintendo would want their fans to be confused.

Quote from ajbolt89:
One option allows your theory to still stand, but also forces you to admit that Nintendo doesn't care about confusing their customers on the status of MZM in the Metroid timeline. The other option simply does not allow your theory to stand.


I think you should check your logic. It could be that as far as Sakamoto was concerned, he made it crystal clear that the game only remade the original gameplay style of Metroid but was in essence a brand new adventure. It is also likely that he thought no one could ever make the mistake of Zero Mission being a remake with all of the map, storyline, and Tourian differences that the developers placed in the game.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Uhm. It's a part of the question as a whole, and since Game-Designers-Don't-Make-Mistakes, clearly Sakamoto isn't making a mistake in letting that slip, correct? He's either: intentionally confusing his customers through not clarifying that it is indeed a prequel, Or: it's actually not a prequel, and so he felt no need to clarify it.


Or he felt like he would be able to correct it later in the interview, which he did. Or he simply did not think that the interviewer thought of the entire game as a remake, rather a remake of gameplay only as Sakamoto presented it.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Secondly, you state that "Others have asked questions that have lead you to make strong points about MZM being a prequel." Who? Who has asked you questions that have lead to ANY strong points that were not initially made in your presentation and simply repeated, or were not refuted by us (and in turn refuted back by you spewing the same information from your initial presentation)?


Skippy Jr. and the guy that has Garfield as an avatar. The questions of the timeline and how items are replaced lead to more points regarding Metroid and why it must exist in the timeline in order for the series to be consistent.

Quote from ajbolt89:
You go on to state that none of us are providing evidence to back up our refutations, which in turn makes them only opinions. flickerbat that; once again you ignore the logic behind our posts, and weave around it with assumptions about the state of mind Nintendo as a whole has regarding their overall goals in making MZM.


No, that was the opinion of the remake side. They are the ones to say that Nintendo intentionally confused its customers. I provide evidence of where they did no such thing.

Quote from ajbolt89:
They've stated that paying attention to detail is important to them... from this you assume that they have the time and resources to get everything right?


No, just the things that matter, like areas that reappear in Super Metroid, or storyline that leads into Metroid Prime.

Quote from ajbolt89:
You apply your own logic here, and state that if they were trying to pay attention to detail they'd have the same amount of Zebetites, etc. as in the original Metroid adventure on the NES.
But if they pay attention to detail, then how do plotholes as seen in the original Metroid Prime come about?


No such plot holes exist in Prime.

Quote from ajbolt89:
FILE NAME: Prime Breach wrote:
Space Pirate encrypted data decoded.
Log 11.377.

Subject Metroid Prime's breach has been contained. Reports indicate that it sensed a large batch of raw Phazon in the lab from within its stasis tank and broke through the glass, using previously unsuspected strength. Besides consuming all of the Phazon, Metroid Prime assimilated several weapons and defense systems from fallen security units. It has suffered no ill effect from said assimilation: indeed, it began to use its newly acquired weapons against us. Once we pacified it, we were unable to remove the assimilated gear without threat to Metroid Prime--the gear is now an integral part of its body. Command is intrigued by this newfound ability, and has ordered further study to commence at once.

This states that the pirates had Metroid Prime under their control at one point - that they had breached the crater and seized it.


What? That states no such thing. I mean that it never once states that they breached the impact crater’s barrier.

Quote from ajbolt89:
But wait! This scan here says they couldn't figure out the artifacts, and it's dated after the first one:
FILE NAME: Chozo Artifacts wrote:
Space Pirate encrypted data encoded.
Log 11.452.

We are particularly interested in a number of curious Chozo Artifacts we have been able to recover from a number of religious sites on Tallon IV. These relics resonate with power, and yet we are unable to harness them in any way. Science Team is attempting to fuse them together with Phazon, believing that a link might exist between them. We know that these Artifacts are linked to the Chozo Temple that block full access to the Impact Crater. We have yet to crack this enigma, however. Command grows impatient regarding this matter: results must be produced soon.

Wait a tick! They've already breached the crater, as evidenced by the earlier dated log file.


Where does it say that the Pirates breached the crater? It states that Metroid Prime breached its stasis container and had its fill of phazon that the pirates had in their lab.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Thank you. Now go on to tell me how this isn't evidence, but is only an opinion. I suspect it will have to do with me not "knowing how to read pirate dating systems", to which you'll attach a theory. I can't wait.


No, just another literal reading of the facts.

Metroid Prime
Log 11.156.9

Test subject Z-d, hereafter referred to as Metroid Prime, was recently discovered in a cavern by mining crews. It quickly dispatched the miners, but was eventually contained by security units and drones. Once contained, we were able to begin studies upon Metroid Prime. The results have been astonishing.

I do not know where you are getting your plot hole from, but it is not from the game facts. Sorry.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Lastly, (which isn't a word in the way you used it), you've still not answered any of Kejardon's comments about your twisting of words and ignoring of facts.


I do not reply to flames.

Quote from Dr. Trence:
face it Dai. stop making it look like youre the "man" and you know everything. because when its the community vs. you, you're gonna lose.


In the case of fact vs. the community, the community loses.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Okay, I'm now done attempting to use your own style of logic to persuade you.


That would probably be your best bet.

Quote from BlueGlass:
My comment was about that quote from the commercial that you use as evidence. It had nothing to do with the Metroiid prologue. Besides, the term "space hunter" is very vague and can apply to anyone who hunts things in space, even if they stay in their own galaxy while doing the hunting.


It does not matter, because the Metroid prologue still applies.

Space refers to all of space, not just one section. If they wanted to restrict Samus’ bounties to one galaxy, then they would have called her a bounty hunter of the galaxy rather than a space hunter.

This is also irrelevant because Zebes is not outside the same galaxy as the Federation, K2-L, and SR388. Therefore the intergalactic part would not apply to Zero Mission, which takes place on Zebes. Thus it would not be her first adventure as an intergalactic bounty hunter because the mission would not define her as such. Also, Metroid was never described to be the first mission of any type, which disproves any connection that would suggest these missions are the same.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Spine Shark already answered the next point


Poorly. Samus refers to telling the tale for the first time, not parts of the tale that were not told before. Since this is her first telling of the mission, it obviously is not Metroid since that mission was told numerous times.

Quote from BlueGlass:
First, the definition of legendary: "extremely well-known; famous" This is probably the definition we want. Nowhere in the prologue does it state that Samus's"numerous missions thought impossible" were extremely well-known or famous. You have pulled that idea out of thin air.


That is your definition that you just presented. How could I pull anything out of thin air when I was not even using that definition?

To answer the counter point, the Metroid manual said that everybody thought those missions were impossible. That means that many people knew about those missions and thought them to be of legendary proportions. Zero Mission makes it more vague and says that others thought this, but legends are not defined on how well know they are. Legends are defined by greatness, and Samus was thought of as the greatest because of her legendary adventures before Metroid.

Quote from BlueGlass:
did you even read what I typed?

The story he says they created was the post explosion stuff and the opening message from Samus.


He did not make any such distinction. Please quote his exact words if you think he did.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Those are the only parts of the game that refer to Samus's past, and the second part of the sentence makes it clear that the story they have created is about Samus's past. By Samus's past, I mean her time wthe the Chozo on Zebes.


If Zero Mission is a prequel then it is also the past. Therefore the comment could be referring to the entire game’s storyline. The fact that Sakamoto then makes references to the story and not just the backstory indicate that he was talking about the storyline of the game being a new expansion.

Quote from BlueGlass:
RoS also had its own backstory in the manual.


It had Metroid’s as well. Just because it did does not mean that Metroid II was a remake that expanded upon the original in terms of replacing the game.

Why they did not include Zero Mission’s backstory in the manual is unknown. However, it is known that the prologue in it leads into Metroid and cannot possibly lead into Zero Mission, because of the references to Zero Mission being the first mission and the prologue having prior missions.

The fact that the Zero Mission backstory is then stated on Nintendo.com proves that Zero Mission’s backstory is completely different from Metroid’s.

Quote from BlueGlass:
the extreme similarities between the basic map layout, stories, and item locations


What is an “extreme” similarity? Also, using that logic, don’t the similarities in Super Metroid prove that it is a remake as well?

Zero Mission’s item placement was not similar to Metroid’s. Many of the items were in different locations completely, or at the very least placed in areas that looked nothing like the areas in Metroid. The story is also very different. Metroid did not have the Brinstar Centipede, the Kraid Acid Worm, the Norfair Grubs, or the Imago Fly. Also, Zero Mission did not have Fake Kraid or the Fifth Zeebetite. So how are these stories the same? Also, if this is just another case of remakes changing things, then isn’t Super Metroid simply Metroid with additional bosses as well?
Zero Mission copies the basic map layout of Super Metroid as well. Does that make it a remake of Super Metroid?

Quote from BlueGlass:
No, they only make money when people buy these new adventures and expansions of their game series. Nintendo does not get money just for making a game, especially since making games actually COSTS the company money.


But those are the games that people buy, not rehashes of old games.

Quote from BlueGlass:
You have no proof that they didn't.


Metroid is not the first mission. Metroid is not even mentioned in those quotes. Zero Mission was presented as the first adventure, which is a storyline reference, not a game order reference. All of the proof shows that Metroid is the first mission, not the first game.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Why would Nintendo randomly add a frame to the story section of the MZM section of the official Metroid site refering to something other than Zero Mission?


Read what I write. What they added refers to a mission we had not heard of until that time. That mission was Zero Mission. Hence, it was not Metroid.

Quote from BlueGlass:
About that thing on the Nintendo website that you claim is the official backstory for MZM, did you notice that it says at the top: "article source: Nintendo Power?" Nintendo Power is not going to have the official MZM backstory when NoA doesn't even know whether or not the game is a remake or prequel.


It is unknown what information was taken from Nintendo power though. That reference could be referring to the first sentence only.

The Zero Mission website states this: “Samus isn’t the only traveler hunting Metroids on Zebes. A band of Space Pirates plans to trap the creatures and use them as weapons.”

That is a backstory that is different from Metroid’s, and proves that the game is not a remake just as well.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Concerning the NoA e-mail, you seem to be the only one who thinks it implies a prequel. Every other person who read it sees it as implying a remake.


Some people on the N-Sider boards see it for what it really means, just as I see it. Also, I do not think it implies a prequel. I think it implies a new adventure. There is a subtle difference.

Quote from BlueGlass:
You're telling us to give proof when most of your proof is simply your opinion on certain details.


Wrong. The NOA letter is not proof because NOA does not have all of the information. What you people have stated is your opinion on the letter. I have given you mine. The two opinions cancel each other out. Evidence consists of in-game facts as well as manual and packaging text, etc.

Quote from BlueGlass:
Not that it really matters, but a Google search for metroid zero mission remake turns up 71,900 results while a Google search for metroid zero mission prequel turns up 13,900.


How many of them are repeats and how many of them have nothing to do with Zero Mission though? We do not know.

Quote from MetalRidley:
Dai Grepher had an interesting idea. Yay for ideas! He might be right. He might be wrong. You can't change his mind; he can't change yours. Let's just let it go, ok?


Thanks for accepting it as a possibility, and thank you for trying to keep the peace here.

Quote from Kejardon:
All those were me pointing out that you are dressing up "I'm right and you're wrong" to sound intelligent, when you aren't offering even a bit of evidence.


That is your opinion, nothing more.

Quote from Kejardon:
If you want me to stop making fun of you, you could try using arguments that don't have huge gaping holes in them.


So you admit that you are making fun of me. Nice.

Quote from Kejardon:
I never said Nintendo should've made it clear that ZM is a remake of Metroid in the ad. I said the ad was being dramatic and the 'game' was simply left understood instead of being explicitly stated.
Nintendo seems to think drama works great and uses it a lot. It's not what I would do, but I don't make the decisions for Nintendo.


Nor do you know their intentions. You cannot just say that they meant to imply that it is her first game when nothing of the sort was even stated. You are just making up excuses to ignore the facts that prove you wrong.

Quote from Kejardon:
Personal insults... nothing about the argument.
I don't care about your insults, so I'm ignoring this.


Those were not insults, those were facts. Now you are avoiding my points! If you do not reply to my points then I will just have to claim victory in this debate.

Quote from Kejardon:
... some? I google it and get 515 results. I google yours and get 304 results.
Oh, and on a forum they mention where the quote was first seen. It's a description of Metroid: Zero Mission in a Nintendo Preview Catalog.
It's an official product descrtiption. And Nintendo has spread that around more than they have the description you mentioned. You are blatantly wrong: This is not seen only by people that e-mail Nintendo, and the stores did not have to e-mail Nintendo to get that quote.


I would have to see proof of this before I agree with you on it.

The official description is found here:
http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856
That presents a completely different backstory though, so you will probably say it is not canon or just put your own meanings behind the words.

Quote from Kejardon:
That sounds like you actually don't want to discuss it. Less work for me.


Another point you avoided!

Quote from Kejardon:
So... you admit that in certain cases 'First mission' should be replaced with 'First game'.

You can't deny what I said without going back on what you said before that.
Not that that's stopped you on some points before.


No, I admit that in the case of the NOA description, “first mission” should have said “Metroid” or “first game” because Metroid was clearly implied.

Your argument is baseless, because you do not have any proof that they meant to refer to Metroid when the said "first mission" on the box and the website.

Quote from Kejardon:
I have a precedent: They said 'First mission' in clear reference to Metroid. You admit that, even. That is evidence supporting my theory.
And then there're all the other points we're arguing.


Once again you avoid responding to my point. I am talking about the box and the website, not the NOA response. NOA’s mistake does not support your theory because Metroid is not the first mission. Referring to it as that was just a mistake, not an intention. You have no proof that Nintendo made mistakes on the other quotes. Therefore you have no basis.

Quote from Kejardon:
You skipped the entire point about it being dramatic. Bring up your points in a seperate quote if you want, but stop avoiding my points.


You have gone completely off topic. Please review the replies and revise your theory. You have no proof that Nintendo is overly dramatic when it comes to factual information.

Quote from Kejardon:
Pretending that what's in front of you isn't really there generally doesn't make it go away.
Actually, come to think of it, that would probably work well on you. But it doesn't work on evidence.


You did not post any evidence.

Quote from Kejardon:
And to bring up the literallism thread again, a literal interpretation is still an interpretation, and is not necessarily true. You have not shown any evidence that the text should only be read literally, without any connotations.


I never said I had a literal interpretation of the text. I said I had quoted the text literally states. I also gave no opinion on certain quotes. I will demonstrate this again.

“The full story of Samus Aran’s first mission finally unfolds…” – Zero Mission

“Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid

Quote from Kejardon:
On a side note, you know what 'necessarily' means by now, right?


I have known that word’s meaning for many years.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
Correction: In the Metroid community the "we dont really give a crap we just want to play the freaking game and have fun" side is the majority.


That may be true.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
That's what you're doing, not us. I could inscribe the factual content of your points on the head of a pin. You've submitted just as many opinions here as anyone else.


“The full story of Samus Aran’s first mission finally unfolds…” – Zero Mission

FACT.

“Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid

FACT.

Please do not make baseless claims.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
One of the things I dont really understand, is why you came all the way over here just to tell us you think ZM is a prequel. Do you have anything else to contribute?


Yes, I do. I will post it soon.

Quote from SABERinBLUE:
You know, this same game manual that said Metroid I wasn't Samus's first mission also said she was a guy.


Yes, and that was intentional so that people who beat the game in two hours or less would be surprised at the ending. Also, an in-game explanation is that those that knew of Samus did not know the truth about her identity and we were told the rumor initially.

Quote from Dr. Trence:
To Dai: dude, seriously, whats your problem? is this going to be your only contrubution to the fourm? Is this what you do on every game board? if i were you (like i said in my earlier post) i would either leave or post someone where else. and the reason im bringing this up is because i know your gonna ignore my long post i made. so really: even if it is true WE (US, THIS COMMUNITY) DONT CARE.


If you do not care then do not reply. I thought you said that this prequel issue will not affect anyone or anything. So why does it bother you so much? Just do not reply if you do not want to. Thanks for posting and see you around.

Quote from ajbolt89:
I'm willing to be straight-up: I care because I want to win. I want to see our team, our group of beliefs beat out Dai's, because, as I've made clear, I simply don't like him. So I stay on, I look at this topic at this point, not because I really care where MZM fits into the storyline (mostly because I will not be dissuaded), but rather because I want to see Dai beaten, and I want to laugh at him when it happens.


Thank you for being honest.

Quote from ajbolt89:
Is it wrong for me to be human?


Yes, actually, it is.

BTW, I cannot be beaten. This is not because of my intelligence or because the facts back me up, but because if I am proven wrong, then I still win because I would then learn the true timeline. I can still lose the debate, but that will not happen unless Sakamoto states that Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid, or if some in-game evidence is found to disprove me. The only way you people will beat me is if you actually start posting some proof.
Lazylen
(user is banned)
2006-04-03 08:44:51 am
well then, why did you come here in the first place? If nintendo already told you that ZM is a prequel to Metroid in your email to them, what further evidence do you need? There is no arguing against it, because you have the "Official" word on it.


it doesnt make a difference in the gameplay, storyline, or anything for that matter if ZM is a prequel. we still know what happens in all of the games, so why is this still going on?...

Since there is substantial evidence for both points of the argument, why dont we just leave it how it was and say that ZM is a remake, or retelling of the original metroid? That was the way it was meant to be when they created it, so why change it now? :|
Tahngarthor
2006-04-03 10:20:24 am
Bangaa Bishop
(ok, I lied again)

Quote:
Quote:
ajbolt89 wrote:
Lastly, (which isn't a word in the way you used it), you've still not answered any of Kejardon's comments about your twisting of words and ignoring of facts.


I do not reply to flames.


You just did. You lose.  He has a valid question, and you're dodging it.
Oh, what's that, cant answer? didn't think so.
Supuh
2006-04-03 10:56:58 am
Quote:
BTW, I cannot be beaten.


oh, you can be beaten all right, in fact the mods could ban you and lock this topic if they desire to, in fact, hitler said that, so did mousillini, and so does EVERY OTHER DICTATOR THAT EVENTUALLY GETS OVERTHROWN.

Quote:
If you do not care then do not reply. I thought you said that this prequel issue will not affect anyone or anything. So why does it bother you so much?


then why the hell does it bother you so much to lose the debate? you admitted that you would, and everyone is against you, YOUVE LOST!

Quote from Tahngarthor:

That's what you're doing, not us. I could inscribe the factual content of your points on the head of a pin. You've submitted just as many opinions here as anyone else.


yes, DAI, YOU HAVE BEEN POSTING A LLLLOOOOOOTTTTTTT OF OPINIONS! in fact, you've forced me to go and find some since you will tell me to if i dont due to your circular ("i am always right") logic. ready? too bad, here it is:

Quote:
The main difference between the two stories is clear. Zero Mission is described to be Samus Aran’s first mission, while Metroid is described to be a mission following numerous, prior missions.
its DESCRIBED to be, that doesnt mean it IS her first mission, nice INFERANCE  there, "the first of Samus's legandary adventures" does NOT NESSICERILY MEAN "Samus's first ever adventure!"!!!!!

Quote:
Samus had successfully completed numerous missions that others had thought impossible.


wow, numerous other missions eh? training is a mission, and to many people, her training might have seemed impossible! "squeeze into this little tunnel and reach the end of it" to a normal person making it could have been insanely difficult! oh, and dont counter with "oh, she didn't have the morph ball yet!" because guess what? in super she didnt either! and she STARTED DIRECTLY WHERE SHE LEFT OFF FROM METROID 2, IN WHICH YOU START WITH IT! so what happened? did it just magically disappear? i dunno, why dont you tell us since you seem to have all the answers, dai.

Quote:
Ridley: This is the area where Ridley, leader of the Space Pirates, can be found.
Tourian: This is the core of Zebes. It is in this deepest level that the mech-
anical life-form Mother Brain can be found."

Metroid manual:

"Ridley - It's the head of Mini-Boss Hideout II. It jumps up into the air and
breathes fire. It's the original life form of the planet Zebes and is
controlled by Mother Brain. Destroy it and you win 75 missile blasts!!!"

This is definitely strong evidence that Zero Mission and Metroid are separate adventures with Zero Mission taking place before Metroid.


oh yea? explain that to me. mother brain isn't really a space pirate. so she controlls ridley, that makes her a space pirate? no, it doesn't, since our military controlls Iraq's police, but that doesn't make our military Iraqi's now does it?


Quote:
This is from Super Metroid. It states that during the Metroid mission, Mother Brain was considered the Space Pirate leader. However, as we have seen in Zero Mission's manual, Ridley was considered the leader of the Space Pirates. This is proof that Zero Mission and Metroid are not the same mission!


its possible for there to be more than one leader, although Samus didn't refer to anymore than Mother Brain.

Quote:
The underground facilities in Zero Mission were not destroyed


we can't know that for sure, now can we? the explosion from the space priate ship from Zero Mission could have damaged their facilities! in fact, they could have considered all of Chozodia their underground facilities!


Quote from Dai:
Another point you avoided!


yea? how many have avoided this entire debate? a lot more than 2 id have to say.

i say we shoulda handled it like they did at SCU, close the topic, and do whatever with Dai
spineshark
2006-04-03 12:40:37 pm
in the name of justice!
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Spine Shark:
If we're having an argument, but have to stop, then come back later, one of us might say, "where did we leave off?" That indicates a point in the conversation.


Doesn’t that indicate that the question is what points were last discussed? I mean, if you did ask that, how many people would reply by giving you the date of the last post? None, and that is because you are not asking for a date or a time, you are asking for substance, material.

There's not any way to convince you on this, unfortunately.  But while I'm on it, I was talking about real life conversations.  Hahahahahaha.
Quote:
Quote from Spine Shark:
If we were to really analogize this with your argument, then you would be telling us that King Kong is not a remake because 98-year-old Fay Wray did not play Ann Darrow in Jackson's version.


Not at all. This is like you people telling me that it is a remake of Planet of the Apes just because there are monkeys in both movies.

If your argument is something more than "it's not exactly the same, so it's not a remake!" you haven't particularly indicated that.  Sorry.
Quote:
The Prime manual covers Metroid as well. Who told the tale that time?

Somebody who isn't Samus.  Feel free to look it up yourself, but it repeatedly calls her "she" and first mentions her as a "young girl."
Quote:
That is not what the quote says though. She said that she would finally tell the tale, not that she would finally tell the parts of the tale she did not tell before this.

Since you played up the semantics of "telling," I'll tell you that she could have "told" ZM before Metroid 3.  And you can't refute that, any more than I can prove it.
Quote:
See, you are disregarding facts from the game and making up excuses. No one here can rightfully accuse me of doing that, but you are doing it deliberately.

No, I can't accuse you of that, but you are using those facts and strange assumptions (game designers never make mistakes?) in bizarre fashions.
Quote:
No such plot holes exist in Prime.

Quote from ajbolt89:
FILE NAME: Prime Breach wrote:
Space Pirate encrypted data decoded.
Log 11.377.

Subject Metroid Prime's breach has been contained. Reports indicate that it sensed a large batch of raw Phazon in the lab from within its stasis tank and broke through the glass, using previously unsuspected strength. Besides consuming all of the Phazon, Metroid Prime assimilated several weapons and defense systems from fallen security units. It has suffered no ill effect from said assimilation: indeed, it began to use its newly acquired weapons against us. Once we pacified it, we were unable to remove the assimilated gear without threat to Metroid Prime--the gear is now an integral part of its body. Command is intrigued by this newfound ability, and has ordered further study to commence at once.

This states that the pirates had Metroid Prime under their control at one point - that they had breached the crater and seized it.


What? That states no such thing. I mean that it never once states that they breached the impact crater’s barrier.

Quote from ajbolt89:
But wait! This scan here says they couldn't figure out the artifacts, and it's dated after the first one:
FILE NAME: Chozo Artifacts wrote:
Space Pirate encrypted data encoded.
Log 11.452.

We are particularly interested in a number of curious Chozo Artifacts we have been able to recover from a number of religious sites on Tallon IV. These relics resonate with power, and yet we are unable to harness them in any way. Science Team is attempting to fuse them together with Phazon, believing that a link might exist between them. We know that these Artifacts are linked to the Chozo Temple that block full access to the Impact Crater. We have yet to crack this enigma, however. Command grows impatient regarding this matter: results must be produced soon.

Wait a tick! They've already breached the crater, as evidenced by the earlier dated log file.


Where does it say that the Pirates breached the crater? It states that Metroid Prime breached its stasis container and had its fill of phazon that the pirates had in their lab.

Fact 1: The pirates don't know how the artifacts work.
Fact 2: The artifacts seal Metroid Prime in the crater.
Fact (?) 3: The pirates have had their asses kicked by Metroid Prime.

Fortunately for you, ignoring this consistency allows you to continue debating anyway.
Quote:
I can still lose the debate, but that will not happen unless Sakamoto states that Zero Mission is a remake of Metroid, or if some in-game evidence is found to disprove me.

Okay, let's go back to your favorite quote, and think about what the words mean if we take them your favorite way, literally.

"I wouldn't necessarily call it a remake of the backstory."

Okay.  From the top.

"I" obviously means Mr. Sakamoto, right?  "it" must mean Zero Mission, no matter who you are.  Now, the definition of the word "remake" may be in question here, so I'll pass over that for a moment.  Backstory will mean "the backstory of Metroid 1," apparently.

Okay, so what he's saying is that, in making the [WHOA...you can read this two ways, and the one I just realized, you're going to hate and dismiss] game Metroid Zero Mission, they haven't gone and redone the backstory exactly the same.  HOLY CRAP HE'S RIGHT!  Your other favorite quotes (which I won't repeat) agree with this.  So taken that way, the quote literally proves nothing.

However, why should he even have to bring up remaking, if it's not a remake?  Go ahead and dismiss this, like I know you will.  Just a little idle speculation.

The other way you can read this, is that "remaking of the backstory" literally means prequel.  After all, "backstory" would be the stuff that happened before Metroid 1, so remaking that backstory could be making a prequel.

Hell, now I need to see if his original Japanese words are there, so I can compare the word with the word the Japanese use to describe Star Wars I/II/III...the one besides "sucky," of course.
Kejardon
2006-04-03 01:02:30 pm
Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder
Quote from Dai Grepher:
So you admit that you are making fun of me. Nice.

I admitted that a few posts ago.
It's surprisingly hard not to make fun of you when you're being ridiculous.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Nor do you know their intentions. You cannot just say that they meant to imply that it is her first game when nothing of the sort was even stated. You are just making up excuses to ignore the facts that prove you wrong.

Depends on how you define 'know'. Personally, I am confident enough in my evidence that I would say I do know.
But that's not even relevant for a debate. Then again, this isn't even a debate any more, you aren't arguing anything.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Those were not insults, those were facts. Now you are avoiding my points! If you do not reply to my points then I will just have to claim victory in this debate.

Your use of fact does not match the dictionary.
The points you brought up have to do with me and not the debate.
Victory in the debate is not claimed by insulting me.
You get an F in logic.
How can I resist making fun of you when you're being this ridiculous?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
I would have to see proof of this before I agree with you on it.

http://www.planetgamecube.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=7093
And I know this is going to go one of two stupid ways. Actually, it'll probably go both ways, despite the fact that's even more stupid.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
The official description is found here:
http://www.nintendo.com/gamemini?gameid=m-Game-0000-1856
That presents a completely different backstory though, so you will probably say it is not canon or just put your own meanings behind the words.
Quote from Kejardon:
That sounds like you actually don't want to discuss it. Less work for me.

Another point you avoided!

If you want to discuss it, I'll discuss it. You just genuinely didn't sound like you wanted to discuss it.
You have repeatedly avoided points over and over, when I explicitly asked you to address it.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
No, I admit that in the case of the NOA description, “first mission” should have said “Metroid” or “first game” because Metroid was clearly implied.

Quote from Kejardon:
So... you admit that in certain cases 'First mission' should be replaced with 'First game'.

k. Seriously. You are contridicting yourself in the span of a single sentence, over and over. It was funny the first few times, but now it's just getting stupid.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Once again you avoid responding to my point. I am talking about the box and the website, not the NOA response. NOA’s mistake does not support your theory because Metroid is not the first mission. Referring to it as that was just a mistake, not an intention. You have no proof that Nintendo made mistakes on the other quotes. Therefore you have no basis.

It is your viewpoint that it's a mistake in an e-mail, and my viewpoint that it's intentional phrasing in an product description. You can not judge my evidence from your viewpoint to denounce my theory. If you tried that logic in geometry, we wouldn't have any geometry at all because we have all sorts of systems that contradict eachother but are internally consistent.
Heck, for that matter, seeing as you have yet to conclusively prove your viewpoint, I can simply come up with any arbitrary viewpoint that defies your evidence and use it to invalidate your evidence. Ergo, all of reality is wrong.
Your logic is getting worse and worse.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
You skipped the entire point about it being dramatic. Bring up your points in a seperate quote if you want, but stop avoiding my points.

You have gone completely off topic. Please review the replies and revise your theory. You have no proof that Nintendo is overly dramatic when it comes to factual information.
Quote from Kejardon:
Pretending that what's in front of you isn't really there generally doesn't make it go away.
Actually, come to think of it, that would probably work well on you. But it doesn't work on evidence.

You did not post any evidence.

You are being completely asinine. That will probably be considered a flame, but you deserve it.
And for the record, this is the first time I have ever called anyone asinine. I don't use the word lightly.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Kejardon:
And to bring up the literallism thread again, a literal interpretation is still an interpretation, and is not necessarily true. You have not shown any evidence that the text should only be read literally, without any connotations.

I never said I had a literal interpretation of the text. I said I had quoted the text literally states. I also gave no opinion on certain quotes. I will demonstrate this again.

The second sentence doesn't make sense. I'm going to guess you dropped a what, so it's 'I said I had quoted what the text literally states'.
Lemme try explaining this to you again: I eat glitches for breakfast.
I will mantain that statement is true. I do not intend it to be read literally. It is an idiom.
It literally states that, in the morning, I consume errors in programming for nutritional value. That statement is false.
It idiomatically states that I run into glitches often and have no problem dealing with them. That statement is true.

Quote:
“The full story of Samus Aran’s first mission finally unfolds…” – Zero Mission
“Samus had completed numerous missions that others thought completely impossible.” – Metroid

These fit just fine with my viewpoint.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
I have known that word’s meaning for many years.


Ah, so it was just a horrendous lapse of memory earlier in the topic?
Dai Grepher
2006-04-03 01:22:18 pm
Quote from Lazylen:
well then, why did you come here in the first place? If nintendo already told you that ZM is a prequel to Metroid in your email to them, what further evidence do you need? There is no arguing against it, because you have the "Official" word on it.


I just want to inform people of something interesting.

Quote from Lazylen:
Since there is substantial evidence for both points of the argument, why dont we just leave it how it was and say that ZM is a remake, or retelling of the original metroid? That was the way it was meant to be when they created it, so why change it now?


Because it is not a remake. It is a prequel.

Quote from Supuh:
oh, you can be beaten all right, in fact the mods could ban you and lock this topic if they desire to.


That would just be silencing me. Besides, the mods on this forum are responcible adults that would not ban someone over something so petty. The mods here use their privilages wisely.

Quote from Supuh:
then why the hell does it bother you so much to lose the debate? you admitted that you would, and everyone is against you, YOUVE LOST!


It would not bother me to lose. This is not the case though. Right now I am simply explain to a few people who disagree with me why the game is a prequel and showing them evidence of that.

Quote from Supuh:
its DESCRIBED to be, that doesnt mean it IS her first mission, nice INFERANCE there, "the first of Samus's legandary adventures" does NOT NESSICERILY MEAN "Samus's first ever adventure!"!!!!!


If Nintendo described it to be her first mission/adventure, then that is what it is. You cannot argue with the company that made the game. Also the word "ever" is not needed to state that something is the first.

Quote from Supuh:
wow, numerous other missions eh? training is a mission, and to many people, her training might have seemed impossible! "squeeze into this little tunnel and reach the end of it" to a normal person making it could have been insanely difficult!


Ah ha ha ha. Come on. That is ridiculous to suggest. Training is training. A mission is a job or task in the field that someone sends you on. Also, how would Samus be the greatest bounty hunter if she did not hunt any bounties but rather squeezed through tunnels?

Quote from Supuh:
oh, and dont counter with "oh, she didn't have the morph ball yet!" because guess what? in super she didnt either! and she STARTED DIRECTLY WHERE SHE LEFT OFF FROM METROID 2, IN WHICH YOU START WITH IT! so what happened? did it just magically disappear? i dunno, why dont you tell us since you seem to have all the answers, dai.


She probably used the energy from the various items to repair certain components in her space ship. Or perhaps she stored the items there for safe keeping. You would have to ask Nintendo that question, because I can only give you an opinion when it comes to unknown storyline elements.

Quote from Supuh:
oh yea? explain that to me. mother brain isn't really a space pirate. so she controlls ridley, that makes her a space pirate? no, it doesn't, since our military controlls Iraq's police, but that doesn't make our military Iraqi's now does it?


We do not control Iraq's police. This is beside the point. Super Metroid's introduction states that Mother Brain was the Space Pirate leader in Metroid. The manual also shows that the brain was the leader since it controlled Ridley.

Quote from Supuh:
its possible for there to be more than one leader, although Samus didn't refer to anymore than Mother Brain.


Ah ha ha ha! Then why didn't Zero Mission refer to Mother Brain as a leader? Face facts. You are just trying to make up excuses to ignore facts that prove it is not a remake.

Quote from Supuh:
we can't know that for sure, now can we? the explosion from the space priate ship from Zero Mission could have damaged their facilities! in fact, they could have considered all of Chozodia their underground facilities!


The ship imploded. It did not explode. Since we know that Zebes' surface is made of a strong material that is almost impenetrable, the ship caving in on itself could not have done any damage to the underground facilities, which were not even near the ship.

Quote from Supuh:
yea? how many have avoided this entire debate? a lot more than 2 id have to say.


What? Please rephrase.
Supuh
2006-04-03 01:43:39 pm
Quote:
The ship imploded. It did not explode. Since we know that Zebes' surface is made of a strong material that is almost impenetrable, the ship caving in on itself could not have done any damage to the underground facilities, which were not even near the ship.


... oh wait? so the big explotion seen on finishing the game is an inplosion? and what proof do you have that it imploded when it clearly exploded? HAVE YOU EVEN PLAYED ZEROMISSION??!? the ship exploded, which damaged the area around it, NAMELY CHOZODIA, THEY DID NOT SPECIFY ON WHAT UNDERGROUND FACILITIES THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT, TOURIAN ISN'T THE ONLY AREA THE SPACE PIRATES OCCUPIED!
... whoa? the surface is made of a  nearly impenetrable material? where the hell did you pull that one from?

Quote:
Ah ha ha ha! Then why didn't Zero Mission refer to Mother Brain as a leader? Face facts. You are just trying to make up excuses to ignore facts that prove it is not a remake.


did they HAVE to state she was a leader? and how does that proove that it was not a remake in the first place? as far as i see it, this entire debate is a bunch of bullcrap.

ok, i admit you got me when it comes to the Super Metroid intro though, but that will not end this debate just because you made a SINGLE valid point.

Quote:
Also, how would Samus be the greatest bounty hunter if she did not hunt any bounties but rather squeezed through tunnels?
in how many of the metroid games have you needed to use the morphball to go through a tunnel to complete your objective?

Quote:
That would just be silencing me. Besides, the mods on this forum are responcible adults that would not ban someone over something so petty. The mods here use their privilages wisely.


quit sucking up, it doesnt work, ive tried before.

and time for some of your own logic, your responce to this should be entertaining:

Quote:
Because it is not a remake. It is a prequel.


... and where is your proof of that?  Twisted Evil

Quote:
I just want to inform people of something interesting.


wanna know something intersting? the daily news is interesting, you and your crappy theorys however, are not

oh, and
Quote from dictionary.com, on the definition of mission:
An inner calling to pursue an activity or perform a service; a vocation.
and

Quote from dictionary.com, on the definition of training:
To focus on or aim at (a goal, mark, or target


... woah? was that a *gasp* similarity i just saw there? or did my eyes decieve me?and what was it you had said?

Quote from dia:
Ah ha ha ha. Come on. That is ridiculous to suggest. Training is training. A mission is a job or task in the field that someone sends you on


woah, is it just me, or does your definition contradict that of dictionary.com's?
SABERinBLUE
2006-04-03 02:09:35 pm
Cook of the Sea
Quote from Supuh:
oh, you can be beaten all right, in fact the mods could ban you and lock this topic if they desire to, in fact, hitler said that, so did mousillini, and so does EVERY OTHER DICTATOR THAT EVENTUALLY GETS OVERTHROWN.


Actually, Supuh, if you don't lessen the antagonistic tone of your posts in a big hurry, I'll seek action against you. 

Quote:
quit sucking up, it doesnt work, ive tried before.


Dai isn't sucking up, he's taking care to be civil.  He didn't say a word to me before I came down on 13M13 and only thanked me afterwards, and his comment to you about responsible adults was merely based on what he had seen of my actions in this thread.  That's not sucking up. 

On the other hand, I find it rather irritating that you'd so blatantly ignore my actions in this thread, which I find evidenced in your ridiculous implications that I or another staffer would ban Dai for having an opinion. 

Having an opinion and debating this opinion, no matter how persistently, is not against the rules of this forum.  Being a jerk to people is.  An example of being a jerk to people is "yelling" in all caps during a serious debate.  Grow up.  13M13 is already on probation and barred from posting in this thread.  Tone it down or worse will happen to you.
Tahngarthor
2006-04-03 02:18:39 pm
Bangaa Bishop
Quote:
Quote:
SABERinBLUE wrote:
You know, this same game manual that said Metroid I wasn't Samus's first mission also said she was a guy.



Yes, and that was intentional so that people who beat the game in two hours or less would be surprised at the ending. Also, an in-game explanation is that those that knew of Samus did not know the truth about her identity and we were told the rumor initially.


You know, that's an opinion, not a fact. Personally, I think that was just an error made by whoever wrote the manual not really playing the entire game to the end (which doesnt seem to be a rare occurance, as you generally dont need to in order to write a manual good enough to tell people how to play). I can see how someone might think that with heroines being a rather rare occurance and women weilding guns/laserbeams/whatever being practically unheardof, that they might not want people to think she was female before playing. However, I'm inclined to think it was an oversight or error. Both views are reasonable, but neither are fact. (yes, I admit my opinion is not a fact. But neither is yours, so dont state it as if it is one).
Dai Grepher
2006-04-03 02:29:23 pm
Quote from Spine Shark:
There's not any way to convince you on this, unfortunately. But while I'm on it, I was talking about real life conversations. Hahahahahaha.


Something we both agree on.

Quote from Spine Shark:
If your argument is something more than "it's not exactly the same, so it's not a remake!" you haven't particularly indicated that. Sorry.


What about the evidence that the games are not even similar? What about the vast storyline differences? What about the inconsistencies that Zero Mission creates as a remake?

Quote from Spine Shark:
Somebody who isn't Samus. Feel free to look it up yourself, but it repeatedly calls her "she" and first mentions her as a "young girl."


Correct, and who told that person? Trace the story back and the trail leads to Samus.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Since you played up the semantics of "telling," I'll tell you that she could have "told" ZM before Metroid 3. And you can't refute that, any more than I can prove it.


But what about Metroid and Metroid II?

See, you are disregarding facts from the game and making up excuses. No one here can rightfully accuse me of doing that, but you are doing it deliberately.

Quote from Spine Shark:
No, I can't accuse you of that, but you are using those facts and strange assumptions (game designers never make mistakes?) in bizarre fashions.


I said no such thing. Also notice where I said no one could rightfully accuse me.

Quote from Spine Shark:
Fact 1: The pirates don't know how the artifacts work.
Fact 2: The artifacts seal Metroid Prime in the crater.
Fact (?) 3: The pirates have had their asses kicked by Metroid Prime.


Where does the game state that the artifacts seal Metroid Prime in the Impact Crater?

Quote from Spine Shark:
Fortunately for you, ignoring this consistency allows you to continue debating anyway.


Ignoring it would be not replying or asking questions about the point that you people are trying to get across.

Quote from Spine Shark:
"I" obviously means Mr. Sakamoto, right? "it" must mean Zero Mission, no matter who you are. Now, the definition of the word "remake" may be in question here, so I'll pass over that for a moment. Backstory will mean "the backstory of Metroid 1," apparently.


No, the backstory is to Samus. The question asked about the backstory of the character. However, Sakamoto may be talking about other points of the story as well, which he indicates in his reference to "story".

Quote from Spine Shark:
Okay, so what he's saying is that, in making the game Metroid Zero Mission, they haven't gone and redone the backstory exactly the same.


Where are you getting this from? He said they did not remake it at all.

Quote from Spine Shark:
HOLY CRAP HE'S RIGHT! Your other favorite quotes (which I won't repeat) agree with this. So taken that way, the quote literally proves nothing.


You made a completely off topic comment based on nothing. He did not say that they did not reamke it to be the same, he said they did not remake it, period.

Quote from Spine Shark:
However, why should he even have to bring up remaking, if it's not a remake? Go ahead and dismiss this, like I know you will. Just a little idle speculation.


They did remake the gameplay style. Gameplay does not deal with storyline though, and he only brings it up again to correct the interviewer that makes the mistake of calling it a remake.

Quote from Spine Shark:
The other way you can read this, is that "remaking of the backstory" literally means prequel. After all, "backstory" would be the stuff that happened before Metroid 1, so remaking that backstory could be making a prequel.


How do you remake something that does not exist? You are suggesting that Sakamoto meant that they did not remake the prequel to Metroid. If Zero Mission is the first making of the prequel then obviously they would not be remaking it. Your logic is not sound.
Look, he said that they did not remake the backstory to Metroid, rather they expanded upon it. That means Zero Mission is a prequel because it expands on events that take place before Metroid.

Quote from Kejardon:
I admitted that a few posts ago.
It's surprisingly hard not to make fun of you when you're being ridiculous.


It is against the rules to make fun of people the the forum.

Quote from Kejardon:
Depends on how you define 'know'. Personally, I am confident enough in my evidence that I would say I do know.


What evidence do you have that Nintendo was referring to Metroid in those quotes?

Quote from Kejardon:
But that's not even relevant for a debate. Then again, this isn't even a debate any more, you aren't arguing anything.


Actaully it is, since you are the one claiming that my evidence does not prove that Zero Mission is the first mission. I thought you would know better than to say something as false as that. Also, had I not replied to this, you would have then accused me of ignoring your "evidence".

Quote from Kejardon:
Your use of fact does not match the dictionary.
The points you brought up have to do with me and not the debate.
Victory in the debate is not claimed by insulting me.


Posting quotes from the box and manual are examples of posting facts. You are wrong on that point.
What I said about your argument was factual. You avoided the points again.
I did not insult you. You are wrong on that point as well.

Quote from Kejardon:
You get an F in logic.
How can I resist making fun of you when you're being this ridiculous?


You get an "A+" in making things up.

Quote from Kejardon:
  http://www.planetgamecube.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=7093
And I know this is going to go one of two stupid ways. Actually, it'll probably go both ways, despite the fact that's even more stupid.


OK, I agree with you that Nintendo presented that as info about the game. However, that still does not change the fact that they made a mistake in calling Metroid the first mission. The thread also shows someone concluding that the game is not a remake of Metroid absed on that same information. Thanks for the link, I will add it to my collection.

Also, I like that you are finally posting evidence to back up your claims. As you can see, when you post facts, I will agree with you.

Quote from Kejardon:
If you want to discuss it, I'll discuss it. You just genuinely didn't sound like you wanted to discuss it.
You have repeatedly avoided points over and over, when I explicitly asked you to address it.


Those were not points, those were cases where you were "poking fun". So, yes I would like to discuss this. If Nintendo states this story as Zero Mission's backstory, then doesn't it prove that it is not a remake of Metroid?

Quote from Kejardon:
k. Seriously. You are contridicting yourself in the span of a single sentence, over and over. It was funny the first few times, but now it's just getting stupid.


You are misunderstanding the issue. You asked me if I admit that "first mission" should be replaced by "first game" in some cases. That is not true. I admit that it should be in that one particular case of the NOA description only. The only reason I think this is because Metroid was clearly implied to be what was being referred to. In cases where they just talk about the first mission, it should not be replaced because Metroid is not being implied.

Quote from Kejardon:
It is your viewpoint that it's a mistake in an e-mail, and my viewpoint that it's intentional phrasing in an product description.


No, it is a fact that it is a mistake because Metroid is not the first mission. Yours is an opinion.

Quote from Kejardon:
You can not judge my evidence from your viewpoint to denounce my theory.


You have no evidence.

Quote from Kejardon:
It literally states that, in the morning, I consume errors in programming for nutritional value. That statement is false.
It idiomatically states that I run into glitches often and have no problem dealing with them. That statement is true.


Apples and oranges. The texts I quoted are not the same as yours.

Quote from Kejardon:
These fit just fine with my viewpoint.


Your viewpoint is baseless.

Quote from Kejardon:
Ah, so it was just a horrendous lapse of memory earlier in the topic?


On your part? Yes.
Prime Hunter
2006-04-03 03:20:06 pm
Quote from Dai Grepher:
Yeah but if Super Metroid is a remake then that just means the story was changed. Remakes change things, remember? How do you know that Super Metroid did not simply change the story so no orders were given? Or better yet, how do you know that Super Metroid simply did not omit those orders to save production time in remaking the game?

How could Super Metroid be a remake of Metroid? THE PROLOGUE shows that she visited Zebes first, went ot SR388, got the Larva, and THEN went back to Zebes. Those are the FACTS, since you seem to rely heavily on them. Besides, how do you explain ROS referring to Metroid/ZM if, according to your new idea of Super possibly being a remake of Metroid, Super comes AFTER ROS?

Super CANNOT be a remake of Metroid, since this proves that Metroid/ZM comes BEFORE ROS, and Super comes AFTER.

There has never been any debate on where Super Metroid comes in the timeline when compared to Metroid and ROS. When those games were made 12+ years ago, they made it obvious that they are back, to back, to back like a Trilogy.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
OK, but what if Zero Mission was made to fill the gap that Super Metroid caused? If Super Metroid remade Metroid, then where did the destroyed Tourian come from? How do you know that Zero Mission was not made fill that story gap for Super Metroid?

As I said before, Super is not a remake of Metroid. Look above for my proof.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from ajbolt89:
Is it wrong for me to be human?
Yes, actually, it is.

You do realize, that no matter who you are, EVERY human makes mistakes once in a while? I proved it myself a while ago with my claim that there was evidence that they said ZM was a better, more accepted version of Metroid for today's gamers.

We are all human, so we all make mistakes, just not all of the same calibur. Who says that Nintendo has never made any mistakes? Hmm... what about the Virtual Boy, or the SNES CD?

Quote from Dai Grepher:
The story is also very different. Metroid did not have the Brinstar Centipede, the Kraid Acid Worm, the Norfair Grubs, or the Imago Fly. Also, Zero Mission did not have Fake Kraid or the Fifth Zeebetite. So how are these stories the same?

Those elements do not, in any way shape or form, alter the OVERALL STORY of Zero Mission. They have nothing to do with it. Think back to my Kong theory. Sure, she has to fight some more creatures, and get over different obstacles, but that doesn't change the storyline.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Zero Mission copies the basic map layout of Super Metroid as well. Does that make it a remake of Super Metroid?


Uh... what maps have you been looking at? Yes, the areas are in the same general location. (Crateria, Brinstar, Norfair, and wrecked Tourian compared to ZM's Tourian) They don't really look ANYTHING alike, however. Where did Kraid + Ridley's lairs go? What the heck are the Wrecked Ship and Maridia doing in there? Where did this new Tourian come from? ZM and Super are vastly different in terms of the map.

Even in their respective locations, the old areas (Besides Crateria) look vastly different from ZM. Norfair expands itself all over the map down there (specifically, the majority of it is in the oposite direction of the original Norfair from ZM/Metroid), where ZM's Norfair was a lot more condensed. Brinstar is spead out even FARTHER than it was in ZM. Plus, where did the extra vertical shaft, where you first come down the elevator in Super, come in?

The map similarities between ZM and Metroid have a lot less differences than that. Yes, they added in Crateria and Chozodia, but that's part of the extended storyline in ZM. If you take those out, ZM and Metroid have VERY SIMILAR map layouts. Almost everything is in nearly the exact same place as it was before. The overall shape of each area is the same.

Oh, and if you look at the ZM map where you compared the elevator locations (As shown in my comparison below), notice the ZM starting point in terms of Tourian. If you look at it, yes the elevator goes up to where the bombs would be. However, it has to cross RIGHT THROUGH the area where the elevator is in Super. (The one right next to the wrecked Toruian, where you head down to first get the Morph Ball) Coincidence?

How do you explain that the location moves from ZM, which according to your argument is a prequel; over to the right in Metroid, which takes place between ZM and Super; and back to where it was in ZM for Super, which takes place AFTER both of them?

Besides, I just noticed something else: If you look at the Super Metroid map, the Bombs aren't even directly above where the elevator would go if that's where you come out in Zero Mission. It doesn't even lead to the Bomb room, just a spot in front of where they eventually put it. Not sure if that's what you mean in your original presentation, but I just thought of it now.

Quote from Dai Grepher:
Quote from Spine Shark:
Fact 1: The pirates don't know how the artifacts work.
Fact 2: The artifacts seal Metroid Prime in the crater.
Fact (?) 3: The pirates have had their asses kicked by Metroid Prime.

Where does the game state that the artifacts seal Metroid Prime in the Impact Crater?


The fact that you can't even get into the crater without them, which is where MP is located. If you didn't notice, the crater is suspended high above the ground. How would MP get in and out of that so easily, without the ability to fly when in it's first form?

attachment:
Map-Comparison.jpg
spineshark
2006-04-03 03:34:09 pm
in the name of justice!
Quote from Spine Shark:
Since you played up the semantics of "telling," I'll tell you that she could have "told" ZM before Metroid 3. And you can't refute that, any more than I can prove it.


But what about Metroid and Metroid II?[/quote]
"[s]he has completed numerous missions..." is nothing resembling telling the story of MZM.
Quote:
I said no such thing. Also notice where I said no one could rightfully accuse me.

That's good, because it looks bad in a debate to say, "my logic is flawed."  You have your pretty pictures and your quotes from interviews and manuals.  But you take every double meaning the way you want it.

Quote:
It is against the rules to make fun of people the the forum.

I posit the fact that I am not banned as proof that this is not the case.
Quote:
Quote from Kejardon:
It literally states that, in the morning, I consume errors in programming for nutritional value. That statement is false.
It idiomatically states that I run into glitches often and have no problem dealing with them. That statement is true.


Apples and oranges. The texts I quoted are not the same as yours.

So why are yours automatically right, while his are wrong?
Dai Grepher
2006-04-03 03:39:25 pm
Quote from Supuh:
... oh wait? so the big explotion seen on finishing the game is an inplosion? and what proof do you have that it imploded when it clearly exploded? HAVE YOU EVEN PLAYED ZEROMISSION??!?


I really do not feel like taking screenshots and hosting them. There is an explosion and many miniature explosions, but the ship itself does not explode. There are three separate sprites or fames (depending on how that scene works) showing the complete ship, then the ship caving in on itself, then the ship as rubble where it once stood. That is an imposion. An explosion would have scattered parts of the ship all around.

Quote from Supuh:
the ship exploded, which damaged the area around it, NAMELY CHOZODIA, THEY DID NOT SPECIFY ON WHAT UNDERGROUND FACILITIES THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT, TOURIAN ISN'T THE ONLY AREA THE SPACE PIRATES OCCUPIED!


Chozodia was not one of their facilities. You have no proof.

Quote from Supuh:
... whoa? the surface is made of a nearly impenetrable material? where the hell did you pull that one from?


The Metroid manual.

"The planet Zebes is a natural fortress. Its sides are covered with special kind of stone, and its interior is a complicated maze."

Quote from Supuh:
did they HAVE to state she was a leader? and how does that proove that it was not a remake in the first place? as far as i see it, this entire debate is a bunch of bullcrap.


Yes they would have to state that if it were a remake since it was the leader in Metroid. The fact that they did not shows that it is not a remake.

Quote from Supuh:
ok, i admit you got me when it comes to the Super Metroid intro though, but that will not end this debate just because you made a SINGLE valid point.


Thank you for regonizing one of many valid points I have made.

Quote from Supuh:
in how many of the metroid games have you needed to use the morphball to go through a tunnel to complete your objective?


That is not the point. The point is that squeezing through tunnels in training does not equate to a mission.

Quote from Supuh:
quit sucking up, it doesnt work, ive tried before.


I am doing nothing of the sort. I say it because it is true, same as I do with Zero Mission being a prequel.

Quote from Supuh:
... and where is your proof of that?


Click on the link in the first post.

Quote from Supuh:
wanna know something intersting? the daily news is interesting, you and your crappy theorys however, are not


These are not my theories, they are the facts. I am sorry that you feel that way about the facts.

Quote from Supuh:
oh, and
dictionary.com, on the definition of mission wrote:
An inner calling to pursue an activity or perform a service; a vocation.

and

dictionary.com, on the definition of training wrote:
To focus on or aim at (a goal, mark, or target


... woah? was that a *gasp* similarity i just saw there? or did my eyes decieve me?and what was it you had said?

dia wrote:
Ah ha ha ha. Come on. That is ridiculous to suggest. Training is training. A mission is a job or task in the field that someone sends you on


woah, is it just me, or does your definition contradict that of dictionary.com's?


It is just you.

Quote from Tahngarthor:
You know, that's an opinion, not a fact. Personally, I think that was just an error made by whoever wrote the manual not really playing the entire game to the end (which doesnt seem to be a rare occurance, as you generally dont need to in order to write a manual good enough to tell people how to play).


Metroid manual to the rescue.

"If you manage to destroy the last enemy, Mother Brain, wait for a message to flash across the screen a second later. Something big is in store for you! We can't disclose it here, be we can tell you that the game is not over yet!
NOTE: The total time you take to complete your mission determines the final outcome."

Quote from Tahngarthor:
I can see how someone might think that with heroines being a rather rare occurance and women weilding guns/laserbeams/whatever being practically unheardof, that they might not want people to think she was female before playing. However, I'm inclined to think it was an oversight or error. Both views are reasonable, but neither are fact. (yes, I admit my opinion is not a fact. But neither is yours, so dont state it as if it is one).


Then it is also not a fact that Metroid's manual was unintentionally inconsistent.

*sigh* I will reply to Prime Hunter and onward's posts later, perhaps tomorrow. Sorry to make you all wait.
Prime Hunter
2006-04-03 06:20:32 pm
I just realized something else when playing Super Metroid: At the end of Super, when you are against MB's second form, she shoots out a beam from her eye (The 300 damage one) that you can't avoid. In ZM, MB has a less powerful version that doesn't always hit. With Metroid, MB justs sits there, with very little to defend herself with.

Why would MB lose this ability, (Along with her eye) from ZM to Metroid, only to regain a more powerful version in Super Metroid?