Metroid Prime TAS

Hazel

Edit history:

Hazel: 2014-03-24 01:54:29 pm

Hazel: 2014-03-24 01:54:15 pm

2014-03-24 01:53:55 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

I'm with T3 on this one. I would have been pretty satisfied to have seen Mrspeedrun finish the TAS that was started a while back, and it was far from perfect. At the same time though, DDRevolutions should really look into, and learn more about this game more before starting a full game TAS.

DDRevolutions

2014-03-28 09:42:02 pm

Life is a speedrun!!!

Okay well thanks everyone, but really nobody helped me fix my L button problem, instead your all off subject > _ >

Hazel

2014-03-29 01:43:42 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

Well that's because your problem isn't really a problem. Analog L and L are two different buttons, even on a Gamecube controller. When you're TASing, just use the one you need to use, and if you're wanting to lock onto and scan something, then press both at the same time.

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2014-03-29 06:40:51 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2014-03-29 06:40:21 pm

2014-03-29 06:17:20 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Stop discussing about TAS and loading times, its stupid, you should do a TAS anyways, no matter if the strats are different or not, cause why the hell not. I don't see how its so important to compare TASes against real time runs anyways, especially when the strats are so far apart from each other like they'd be in this game, if you want to see the perfect time, just take out the possible mistakes from miles's segmented run after its done, its not gonna be far apart from it anyways, probably not even more than a minute.

DDRevolutions

2014-03-29 07:11:07 pm

Life is a speedrun!!!

Thanks for clearing everything up It's Personal! : D and don't worry Mr. Speedrun, I bet you, It's personal, or me will make a worthy full game TAS soon ^ . ^ until they fix the loading in Dolphin, this is the new generation of Prime !!! Lol

MrSpEeDrUn

2014-03-29 07:36:05 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

i would get back to it, but i kinda put my speedrunning on a hold cause i have tons of stuff to do related to other important things.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-03-29 09:08:40 pm

2014-03-29 09:05:16 pm

Quote from MrSpEeDrUn:

Stop discussing about TAS and loading times, its stupid, you should do a TAS anyways, no matter if the strats are different or not, cause why the hell not. I don't see how its so important to compare TASes against real time runs anyways, especially when the strats are so far apart from each other like they'd be in this game, if you want to see the perfect time, just take out the possible mistakes from miles's segmented run after its done, its not gonna be far apart from it anyways, probably not even more than a minute.

It's not stupid at all to compare it <_< You're completely missing the point... again. And ignoring mistakes in miles's run is far, far, far from how optimized a TAS can be on an accurate emulator. "probably not even more than a minute" You do realize miles's segmented run has been on pace for 0:52? <____< And a TAS would take off MINUTES?

I'm not completely opposed to someone working on a TAS, like as itpersonnal said; there could always be interesting stuff that the TASer comes up with and maybe a good stepping stone for when an accurate emulator does come out (hopefully). But saying "who cares" or "it doesn't matter" is really dumb because it does matter.

[quote="MrSpEeDrUn"]Stop discussing about TAS and loading times, its stupid, you should do a TAS anyways, no matter if the strats are different or not, cause why the hell not. I don't see how its so important to compare TASes against real time runs anyways, especially when the strats are so far apart from each other like they'd be in this game, if you want to see the perfect time, just take out the possible mistakes from miles's segmented run after its done, its not gonna be far apart from it anyways, probably not even more than a minute.[/quote]

It's not stupid at all to compare it <_<  You're completely missing the point... again. And ignoring mistakes in miles's run is far, far, far from how optimized a TAS can be on an accurate emulator. "probably not even more than a minute" You do realize miles's segmented run has been on pace for 0:52? <____< And a TAS would take off MINUTES?

I'm not completely opposed to someone working on a TAS, like as itpersonnal said; there could always be interesting stuff that the TASer comes up with and maybe a good stepping stone for when an accurate emulator does come out (hopefully). But saying "who cares" or "it doesn't matter" is really dumb because it does matter.

Hazel

2014-03-29 11:21:04 pm

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

I wonder if non-regulars ever stop by this thread to see how the "Metroid Prime TAS" is going.

kirbymastah

2014-03-30 02:14:06 am

Quote from itsPersonnal:

I wonder if non-regulars ever stop by this thread to see how the "Metroid Prime TAS" is going.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :^)

sabata2

2014-03-30 06:21:17 am

ANKOKU

Do lurkers count?

DDRevolutions

2014-04-03 06:55:38 am

Life is a speedrun!!!

Hey So everybody I finally got to Tallon IV now in my TAS, I'm really frustrated, for one TASing this games inputs by myself frame by frame is a real *****, and second Trying to get that darn leftward spacejump is killing me, I came here for moral support, anybody willing to help with the best advice and words possible?!?!?!?

StefanvanDijke

2014-04-03 09:54:15 am

cant you watch a video of a succesful dash frame by frame and try to copy it. I thought these things were supposed to be easy in a TAS Rolling Eyes

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2014-04-03 12:55:42 pm

2014-04-03 12:53:22 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Quote from MrSpEeDrUn:

I don't see how its so important to compare TASes against real time runs anyways, especially when the strats are so far apart from each other like they'd be in this game

Quote from kirbymastah:

It's not stupid at all to compare it <_< You're completely missing the point... again. And ignoring mistakes in miles's run is far, far, far from how optimized a TAS can be on an accurate emulator. "probably not even more than a minute"

YOU are missing the point.

I know, having loading times in a TAS would still probably result in a :45 or even lower, though the strats would be completely different, so i wouldn't care at all, it'd look faster too so it'd be even cooler to watch. Cause again, it'd be way off Miles's run, so why compare them.

DDRevolutions

2014-04-03 02:20:34 pm

Life is a speedrun!!!

Well the leftward dash is still the hardest trick in the game > . < ' ! ...

T3

2014-04-03 03:30:41 pm

Quote:

YOU are missing the point.

I know, having loading times in a TAS would still probably result in a :45 or even lower, though the strats would be completely different, so i wouldn't care at all, it'd look faster too so it'd be even cooler to watch. Cause again, it'd be way off Miles's run, so why compare them.

what are you even trying to argue?

if you're trying to argue whether there is a point in making a tas, i don't think anyone is arguing with you. if somebody wants to make a tas and finds a reason to make one, they'll make one. for the reasons i mentioned in my previous post, this isn't a bad thing and i don't think anyone believes that this is a bad thing.

if you're trying to argue whether a tas would be legitimate, it really comes down to how you view loading times. i think kirbymastah's point is that loading times are part of the actual game and by changing them you're essentially changing the game into something else. obviously emulators aren't perfect and so doing any run on them is always going to be marginally inaccurate but in this instance the game is being changed dramatically. now if you view loadings times as simply a limitation of the hardware and not a part of the actual game then the run would be legitimate. this is the point of contention.

you need to create a fair standard for everyone running a game in order for you deem one run "legitimate" and another not, otherwise people could theoretically create their own emulator and make a tas with even faster loading times, etc. the only fair standard is how the game was officially released or very close to that. so if the game is significantly different (however you define that) from how it was officially released you can say the run isn't legitimate. in this instance, i'd say the run is significantly different.

[quote]YOU are missing the point.

I know, having loading times in a TAS would still probably result in a :45 or even lower, though the strats would be completely different, so i wouldn't care at all, it'd look faster too so it'd be even cooler to watch. Cause again, it'd be way off Miles's run, so why compare them.[/quote]
what are you even trying to argue?

if you're trying to argue whether there is a point in making a tas, i don't think anyone is arguing with you. if somebody wants to make a tas and finds a reason to make one, they'll make one. for the reasons i mentioned in my previous post, this isn't a bad thing and i don't think anyone believes that this is a bad thing.

if you're trying to argue whether a tas would be legitimate, it really comes down to how you view loading times. i think kirbymastah's point is that loading times are part of the actual game and by changing them you're essentially changing the game into something else. obviously emulators aren't perfect and so doing any run on them is always going to be marginally inaccurate but in this instance the game is being changed dramatically. now if you view loadings times as simply a limitation of the hardware and not a part of the actual game then the run would be legitimate. this is the point of contention.

you need to create a fair standard for everyone running a game in order for you deem one run "legitimate" and another not, otherwise people could theoretically create their own emulator and make a tas with even faster loading times, etc. the only fair standard is how the game was officially released or very close to that. so if the game is significantly different (however you define that) from how it was officially released you can say the run isn't legitimate. in this instance, i'd say the run is significantly different.

sabata2

2014-04-04 12:55:14 am

ANKOKU

Quote from DDRevolutions:

Hey So everybody I finally got to Tallon IV now in my TAS, I'm really frustrated, for one TASing this games inputs by myself frame by frame is a real *****, and second Trying to get that darn leftward spacejump is killing me, I came here for moral support, anybody willing to help with the best advice and words possible?!?!?!?

Umm...
Rahh! Rahh! You can do it!

am i doin it rite?

MrSpEeDrUn

2014-04-04 01:25:45 am

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

Quote from T3:

what are you even trying to argue?

if you're trying to argue whether there is a point in making a tas, i don't think anyone is arguing with you. if somebody wants to make a tas and finds a reason to make one, they'll make one. for the reasons i mentioned in my previous post, this isn't a bad thing and i don't think anyone believes that this is a bad thing.

if you're trying to argue whether a tas would be legitimate, it really comes down to how you view loading times. i think kirbymastah's point is that loading times are part of the actual game and by changing them you're essentially changing the game into something else. obviously emulators aren't perfect and so doing any run on them is always going to be marginally inaccurate but in this instance the game is being changed dramatically. now if you view loadings times as simply a limitation of the hardware and not a part of the actual game then the run would be legitimate. this is the point of contention.

you need to create a fair standard for everyone running a game in order for you deem one run "legitimate" and another not, otherwise people could theoretically create their own emulator and make a tas with even faster loading times, etc. the only fair standard is how the game was officially released or very close to that. so if the game is significantly different (however you define that) from how it was officially released you can say the run isn't legitimate. in this instance, i'd say the run is significantly different.

I'm just saying, that i dont really care wether its legitimate or not.

[quote="T3"]what are you even trying to argue?

if you're trying to argue whether there is a point in making a tas, i don't think anyone is arguing with you. if somebody wants to make a tas and finds a reason to make one, they'll make one. for the reasons i mentioned in my previous post, this isn't a bad thing and i don't think anyone believes that this is a bad thing.

if you're trying to argue whether a tas would be legitimate, it really comes down to how you view loading times. i think kirbymastah's point is that loading times are part of the actual game and by changing them you're essentially changing the game into something else. obviously emulators aren't perfect and so doing any run on them is always going to be marginally inaccurate but in this instance the game is being changed dramatically. now if you view loadings times as simply a limitation of the hardware and not a part of the actual game then the run would be legitimate. this is the point of contention.

you need to create a fair standard for everyone running a game in order for you deem one run "legitimate" and another not, otherwise people could theoretically create their own emulator and make a tas with even faster loading times, etc. the only fair standard is how the game was officially released or very close to that. so if the game is significantly different (however you define that) from how it was officially released you can say the run isn't legitimate. in this instance, i'd say the run is significantly different.
[/quote]

I'm just saying, that i dont really care wether its legitimate or not.

kirbymastah

2014-04-04 01:32:19 am

Basically what t3 said is accurate with what I was trying to say. And if you really don't care whether it's legitimate or not, would you care if someone, say, used cheats on dolphin and made a TAS out of that? It's more extreme, but it's still the same idea. It's not accurate gameplay as on console. Again, not going to stop anyone from making a TAS from the extremely inaccurate emulator right now, but it also isn't exactly going to be "legitimate" in that sense (and I doubt it ever will be 100%).

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2014-04-04 01:42:08 am

2014-04-04 01:41:17 am

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times, so why would you compare it with cheating, sure the run is different, but in my eyes it's still the same game.
I don't see the point of comparing TAS to human runs in this game anyways, still the game will be pushed to it's limits, even though strats will be different it will be entertaining to watch and in my eyes that's the point of a TAS speedrun.
Theres no reason for me to compare a real run to a TAS in this game. (and probably not even in other games either, whats the point? it's two different things and therefore not competetive)
Actually, i do even appreciate that it doesnt have loading times, i mean damn, you'll probably be in the impact crater in less then 35 minutes or something, how awesome would that be to watch...

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-04-04 02:11:01 am

kirbymastah: 2014-04-04 02:08:44 am

kirbymastah: 2014-04-04 02:07:45 am

kirbymastah: 2014-04-04 02:06:52 am

kirbymastah: 2014-04-04 02:05:23 am

2014-04-04 02:05:05 am

Quote from MrSpEeDrUn:

No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times, so why would you compare it with cheating, sure the run is different, but in my eyes it's still the same game.
I don't see the point of comparing TAS to human runs in this game anyways, still the game will be pushed to it's limits, even though strats will be different it will be entertaining to watch and in my eyes that's the point of a TAS speedrun.
Theres no reason for me to compare a real run to a TAS in this game. (and probably not even in other games either, whats the point? it's two different things and therefore not competetive)
Actually, i do even appreciate that it doesnt have loading times, i mean damn, you'll probably be in the impact crater in less then 35 minutes or something, how awesome would that be to watch...

"No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times"

YES YOU ARE. <_< Ugh. I give up... you never got my point in the first place <_< Just re-read t3's post since he explains it basically perfectly, better than I can . this is why metroid prime TASing discussion is so stupid.

[quote="MrSpEeDrUn"]No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times, so why would you compare it with cheating, sure the run is different, but in my eyes it's still the same game.
I don't see the point of comparing TAS to human runs in this game anyways, still the game will be pushed to it's limits, even though strats will be different it will be entertaining to watch and in my eyes that's the point of a TAS speedrun.
Theres no reason for me to compare a real run to a TAS in this game. (and probably not even in other games either, whats the point? it's two different things and therefore not competetive)
Actually, i do even appreciate that it doesnt have loading times, i mean damn, you'll probably be in the impact crater in less then 35 minutes or something, how awesome would that be to watch...[/quote]

"No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times"

YES YOU ARE. <_< Ugh. I give up... you never got my point in the first place <_<  Just re-read t3's post since he explains it basically perfectly, better than I can . this is why metroid prime TASing discussion is so stupid.

DDRevolutions

2014-04-04 03:28:27 am

Life is a speedrun!!!

HAHA thanks Sabata and T3 why you no help me with Leftward space jump, you are like a god with your skill level of doing that trick . _ .

Skull64

2014-04-04 03:35:13 am

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from MrSpEeDrUn:

No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times, so why would you compare it with cheating, sure the run is different, but in my eyes it's still the same game.
I don't see the point of comparing TAS to human runs in this game anyways, still the game will be pushed to it's limits, even though strats will be different it will be entertaining to watch and in my eyes that's the point of a TAS speedrun.
Theres no reason for me to compare a real run to a TAS in this game. (and probably not even in other games either, whats the point? it's two different things and therefore not competetive)
Actually, i do even appreciate that it doesnt have loading times, i mean damn, you'll probably be in the impact crater in less then 35 minutes or something, how awesome would that be to watch...

"No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times"

YES YOU ARE. <_< Ugh. I give up... you never got my point in the first place <_< Just re-read t3's post since he explains it basically perfectly, better than I can . this is why metroid prime TASing discussion is so stupid.

lol r u srs m8

Of course everybody knows that occasionally there will be a different room strat because of the lack of loading times on emulator. I think MrSpeedrun's point was that it doesn't really matter since nobody will ever get a TAS time anyways. My viewing experience would be exactly the same whether I were watching a TAS that included loads and a TAS that didn't. Whether or not the final time is a minute lower than it should have been is irrelevant.

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="MrSpEeDrUn"]No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times, so why would you compare it with cheating, sure the run is different, but in my eyes it's still the same game.
I don't see the point of comparing TAS to human runs in this game anyways, still the game will be pushed to it's limits, even though strats will be different it will be entertaining to watch and in my eyes that's the point of a TAS speedrun.
Theres no reason for me to compare a real run to a TAS in this game. (and probably not even in other games either, whats the point? it's two different things and therefore not competetive)
Actually, i do even appreciate that it doesnt have loading times, i mean damn, you'll probably be in the impact crater in less then 35 minutes or something, how awesome would that be to watch...[/quote]

"No, you're not actually changing the game mechanics with loading times"

YES YOU ARE. <_< Ugh. I give up... you never got my point in the first place <_<  Just re-read t3's post since he explains it basically perfectly, better than I can . this is why metroid prime TASing discussion is so stupid.[/quote]

lol r u srs m8

Of course everybody knows that occasionally there will be a different room strat because of the lack of loading times on emulator. I think MrSpeedrun's point was that it doesn't really matter since nobody will ever get a TAS time anyways. My viewing experience would be exactly the same whether I were watching a TAS that included loads and a TAS that didn't. Whether or not the final time is a minute lower than it should have been is irrelevant.

Hazel

Edit history:

Hazel: 2014-04-04 06:37:53 am

2014-04-04 06:28:01 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

If my memory is accurate here: hitting a loading zone on console, then taking the disc out and putting it back, will load the room instantaneously if you're going by game time. This is just something I think should be brought up. Ask yourself if you consider that "legitimate". I personally don't, but I have no argument as to why. There is no real reason that shouldn't be allowed. But we need to draw a line somewhere, right? We need to make some kind of rules to abide by. Right?

Clearly we all have different ideas as to what "legitimate" means, but that doesn't mean we should try to stop progress. If someone wants to make a TAS of the game, we don't need to put them up to a standard. They don't need to hit a certain level of optimization, or follow a set of rules. At the rate DDR's original WIP (from like 2012) was going, he wouldn't have even beat Miles' time. But that doesn't put us in the position to tell him not to finish it, and we're still not in that position now.

Now, whether or not you personally think his TAS is legitimate, that's up to you. But who is it really hurting to let him make a TAS? Sloppy or not. "Legitimate" or not. There's no reason to say that DDR, or someone else, can't give this a shot. Worst case scenario: he finishes a TAS of the game. Who knows, maybe he'll find some useful strats while he's at it.

If my memory is accurate here: hitting a loading zone on console, then taking the disc out and putting it back, will load the room instantaneously if you're going by game time. This is just something I think should be brought up. Ask yourself if you consider that "legitimate". I personally don't, but I have no argument as to why. There is no [i]real[/i] reason that shouldn't be allowed. But we need to draw a line somewhere, right? We need to make some kind of rules to abide by. Right?

Clearly we all have different ideas as to what "legitimate" means, but that doesn't mean we should try to stop progress. If someone wants to make a TAS of the game, we don't need to put them up to a standard. They don't need to hit a certain level of optimization, or follow a set of rules. At the rate DDR's original WIP (from like 2012) was going, he wouldn't have even beat Miles' time. But that [b]doesn't[/b] put us in the position to tell him not to finish it, and we're still not in that position now.

Now, whether or not you personally think his TAS is legitimate, that's up to you. But who is it really hurting to let him make a TAS? Sloppy or not. "Legitimate" or not. There's no reason to say that DDR, or someone else, can't give this a shot. [u]Worst case scenario: he finishes a TAS of the game.[/u] Who knows, maybe he'll find some useful strats while he's at it.

DDRevolutions

2014-04-04 06:49:42 am

Life is a speedrun!!!

I redid everything and re optimized my approach thank you very much > _ > I plan on finishing this TAS with as many new strats as possible x_x if I can ever figure out how to get leftward space jump, like I'm so close I just can't get Samus to slide up that rock, I come close to hitting the ledge every single time xD, help me, I know you and Ptorflaxendrosis got it, at least you have someone to work with, so count all your advantages, and have mercy on me ; P

Hazel

2014-04-04 07:13:53 am

rocks, locks, and invisible blocks

I don't actually know the first thing about SJF, in all honesty. Ptorflaxendrosis and I never got that far. He did do it on his own however, without any of my inputs. I guess study this video and maybe you can figure it out? The most important thing, as far as I know, is only pressing B for 1 frame when you do the dash, and letting go of L on the frame that gives the most height/speed.