Metroid II Remixed

2007-06-05 11:49:55 am

Quote from Zeke:

It's far from perfect, but you can tell that these guys get it.

It's odd you should say that, because back when I found this I was originally enraptured, until I realised that the guys making it didn't "get it", and that the game wasn't very good at all. Stupid GM engine is barely playable. :P

The map where you start off (with your ship) is really nice-looking, though, and the sounds/music are excellent.

RT-55J

2007-06-05 05:39:56 pm

Armor Guardian

I played the demo a while ago. It was slower than apathetic teenage molasses going uphill in the middle of an antarctic winter. I'll see if v1.3 is any faster.

2007-06-05 07:56:27 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from mooseproduce:

It's odd you should say that, because back when I found this I was originally enraptured, until I realised that the guys making it didn't "get it", and that the game wasn't very good at all. Stupid GM engine is barely playable. :P

So it's slow. That sucks, but it can surely be fixed. I'm a lot more interested in the game design. The nifty integration of both kinds of Spider Ball, for instance. The flashlight effect in the caves -- very atmospheric. And even though this is just a demo, they hid plenty of missile expansions.

2007-06-06 01:52:09 pm

Quote from Zeke:

Quote from mooseproduce:

It's odd you should say that, because back when I found this I was originally enraptured, until I realised that the guys making it didn't "get it", and that the game wasn't very good at all. Stupid GM engine is barely playable. :P

So it's slow. That sucks, but it can surely be fixed. I'm a lot more interested in the game design. The nifty integration of both kinds of Spider Ball, for instance. The flashlight effect in the caves -- very atmospheric. And even though this is just a demo, they hid plenty of missile expansions.

What?! I didn't say anything about speed - that was the other guy. Practise correct quoting. >_<

...and the game design, or lack thereof, is exactly my problem with it.

072

2007-06-06 03:43:33 pm

coral to complement blue

Mooseproduce will not rest until people stop using GM.

I can see why he thought you were talking about the speed though-- that's really what makes it barely playable.

2007-06-06 09:12:26 pm

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Hey, I like Jumper. And Hold-Off Red. And Untitled. >_>

Next you're gonna start bashing flash and I'm gonna have to bust out k2xl and jmtb02, right?

arkarian

2007-06-06 11:59:03 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from mooseproduce:

What?! I didn't say anything about speed - that was the other guy. Practise correct quoting. >_<

Er, relax. Zeke's not some idiot or something.

Tahngarthor

2007-06-07 12:32:05 am

Bangaa Bishop

pretty decent attempt thus far, but Samus moves slower than a snail with a broken foot.

2007-06-07 04:33:26 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Thanks, Ark. moose, since the biggest problem I noticed with the game engine was the slowness, I figured that was what you meant. The demo also made my drive go loud and at one point crashed the computer; if these problems are typical of GM, then I agree, it sucks.

This must present a quandary for the designers. If they stick with GM, they'll have a slow game, probably due to the overhead you get with programs designed in programs (just like how WYSIWYG editors produce horrible HTML). But if they don't, they'll have to pretty much start over.

I stand by my approval of the design itself, though. There's not much variety, but there's not supposed to be. Zebes is complex and teeming with life, but SR-388 is a lonely, spooky place. All you have for company are a few mindless creatures and the knowledge that dozens of Metroids are lurking in the caves ahead. IMO, the demo captured that atmosphere well.

Tahngarthor

2007-06-07 12:21:57 pm

Bangaa Bishop

For me it wasn't the engine that was slow, it was just Samus' movement.

(Also, I hope the entire map isnt going to be dark with a flashlight like this was.)

Aegis Runestone

2007-06-07 12:28:45 pm

Game Lover

It was an interesting play, but I prefer to see an official one from Nintendo. With some foreshadowing about Metroid Fusion... (like a broken Core-X shell on the ground near a Metroid.)

2007-06-07 02:11:21 pm

I didn't like the gameplay... the things I like about Metroid I & II are Samus' movement and the awesome level design. Samus' movements in this game are boring - as long as you are holding the Left key, Samus is travelling Left at a set amount of pixels per frame. The frame you hit Jump, Samus' vertical speed is set to some number, and releasing jump early does not make you fall back to the ground any sooner.

Basically, they've looked at the "macro" aspects of the gameplay (or "big picture" or whatever you want to call it) but the little stuff that actually makes Metroid games fun to play isn't there. Same with the map design; I know it's just a demo, but the entire style of map design is just bad. As opposed to a map made up of small tiles, it's a map made of giant rectangles with tile "objects" thrown in whenever they want you to use missiles to get through somewhere. You can look at the vertical corridors in Metroid as just corridors that go vertically and have platforms in them, but then you're missing out on why they're fun. (They're better in Metroid than in Metroid II, but they were still ok in the latter.)

The speed of the game is kinda gross, I suppose, but I hardly even noticed it. It's not that which bothers me. :P

I didn't like the gameplay... the things I like about Metroid I & II are Samus' movement and the awesome level design. Samus' movements in this game are boring - as long as you are holding the Left key, Samus is travelling Left at a set amount of pixels per frame. The frame you hit Jump, Samus' vertical speed is set to some number, and releasing jump early does not make you fall back to the ground any sooner.

Basically, they've looked at the "macro" aspects of the gameplay (or "big picture" or whatever you want to call it) but the little stuff that actually makes Metroid games fun to play isn't there. Same with the map design; I know it's just a demo, but the entire style of map design is just bad. As opposed to a map made up of small tiles, it's a map made of giant rectangles with tile "objects" thrown in whenever they want you to use missiles to get through somewhere. You can look at the vertical corridors in Metroid as just corridors that go vertically and have platforms in them, but then you're missing out on why they're fun. (They're better in Metroid than in Metroid II, but they were still ok in the latter.)

The speed of the game is kinda gross, I suppose, but I hardly even noticed it. It's not that which bothers me. :P

2007-06-07 08:45:40 pm

Time bomb set get out fast!

Fair enough. I certainly don't claim this is a polished product. Lots of fine-tuning is needed, and you mentioned two of the obvious ones (visible missile blocks and jump control), which I also noticed.

But again, it's just a demo. Of course it's gonna be rough and flawed, and in fact, they probably want to hear exactly the kind of criticisms you've raised so they'll know what to work on. What I see here is great potential. If they keep at it, we'll see soon enough whether I'm right.

2007-06-08 06:18:08 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I've thought about making a game emulate real movement as closely as possible. I had an idea for using a crouch button to determine the height of a jump, so that you took a couple steps and release, but then you have to have a separate button that determines the difference from jumping and crouching. Like maybe if you just crouch, then release and hit up. The only thing is I'm not sure if it's easy for the player to get adjusted to, especially considering you sometimes need to jump immediately. I've had negative feelings for jumping at a predetermined velocity, but I guess the standard difference in decay from holding jump to releasing jump at any given point is enough to make it unnoticable for players.

2007-06-09 04:07:46 pm

@ Zeke: You can tell they won't change it, though. I doubt they have the programming talent -- no offense to them. :P

@ JaggerC: "Real" movement is cool too, but I'm talking about something as simple as cutting y speed when the player releases the jump button. :P Stuff like that you don't even notice (or I do now, but when I was a kid I didn't) but it adds SOOOO much to the fun of simply controlling your character. If you took all the maps, items, etc. out of Metroid 1 but used the Megaman physics/animation system, I wouldn't play it. I detest the feel of Megaman. :P Samus controls like awesome.

2007-06-10 02:21:39 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I loved the feel of Megaman 2 (except for the ability to stop in mid-air >_>). You can really tell there's a momentum shift in Bubble Man's stage. It sets the speed to just above zero, though. It took me several tries for one jump to figure that out. Stupid overhead spikes. >_<

I think SMB used formulas instead of set speeds for jumping. The jumps seem to fade the entire time, then it just fades faster once you release. I could be mistaken, though.

2007-06-10 04:48:27 pm

I'm pretty sure Metroid (like almost every other platformer in existence) uses x/y position and x/y speed. So basically, Samus' loop (the code that runs every frame) looks somewhat similar to this:

if(left is pressed) this.xspeed = -5;

else if(right is pressed) this.xspeed = +5;

if(jump is pressed && Samus on the ground) this.yspeed = -10; // this makes her jump

if(jump is not pressed && this.yspeed < 0) this.yspeed = 0; // this cuts her speed when you release jump

this.yspeed += 1; // this is gravity

this.xposition += this.xspeed;
this.yposition += this.yspeed;

If Samus is in the air, and her vertical speed is in an upwards direction, and jump is not pressed, then her speed gets set to zero. It's a bit more complicated, though; when Samus jumps originally, her animation frame has one of her legs pushing off the ground, kinda, and during this frame her speed is not cancelled even if you release jump (also, this frame is played even when Samus has Screw Attack, but the frame doesn't have SA's properties... so you can still be hit during the first few frames of jumping).

I'm pretty sure Metroid (like almost every other platformer in existence) uses x/y position and x/y speed. So basically, Samus' loop (the code that runs every frame) looks somewhat similar to this:

if(left is pressed) this.xspeed = -5;

else if(right is pressed) this.xspeed = +5;

if(jump is pressed && Samus on the ground) this.yspeed = -10; // this makes her jump

if(jump is not pressed && this.yspeed < 0) this.yspeed = 0; // this cuts her speed when you release jump

this.yspeed += 1; // this is gravity

this.xposition += this.xspeed;
  this.yposition += this.yspeed;

If Samus is in the air, and her vertical speed is in an upwards direction, and jump is not pressed, then her speed gets set to zero. It's a bit more complicated, though; when Samus jumps originally, her animation frame has one of her legs pushing off the ground, kinda, and during this frame her speed is not cancelled even if you release jump (also, this frame is played even when Samus has Screw Attack, but the frame doesn't have SA's properties... so you can still be hit during the first few frames of jumping).

carlmmii

2007-06-10 05:21:26 pm

I can't say for other metroid games, but as far as metroid II goes, it works like this.

Horizontal movement is completely independent from vertical movement. Without the varia suit, samus moves at a speed of 3 units/frame when walking, 2 units/frame when in the air, and 4 units/frame when rolling. With the varia suit, her movement increases to 4 units/frame when walking, with no change to air or rolling speeds. I believe that one unit=1.5 pixels @ 60fps, but I can't remember right now.

Vertical movement is well defined, but is tricky to pinpoint. It works on a normal gravity system which adds to her speed when in free-fall and terminates when maximum velocity is reached.

Jumping works like this. Without the varia suit, as long as the jump button is held for less than about 2.6 block heights (just higher than a save pillar), samus will travel upward at maximum velocity (excepting the first few frames of jumping animation). If the jump button is released within this time, samus' upward velocity will immediately go to 0 and she'll start falling. If the jump button is held any longer than the 2.6 block heights, then it's the same effect as holding the jump button for the entire jump, and gravity will start taking effect at that point, resulting in samus slowing down until she hits her head or she reaches a height of about 4.2 blocks, at which she'll be at the peak of her jump.

It's nearly the exact same system with the high jump boots, except the cutoff height is around 6.5 blocks, with maximum height of around 8.1 blocks.

This is what makes it so damn hard to jump perfectly onto save pillars, since you only have between that 2.5 and 2.6 margin to release the jump button. Too early and you'll be short, to long and you'll jump too high. And when you get the high jump boots, it's much easier to jump onto them because the 2.5 blocks is well below the new cutoff.

I can't say for other metroid games, but as far as metroid II goes, it works like this.

Horizontal movement is completely independent from vertical movement. Without the varia suit, samus moves at a speed of 3 units/frame when walking, 2 units/frame when in the air, and 4 units/frame when rolling. With the varia suit, her movement increases to 4 units/frame when walking, with no change to air or rolling speeds. I believe that one unit=1.5 pixels @ 60fps, but I can't remember right now.

Vertical movement is well defined, but is tricky to pinpoint. It works on a normal gravity system which adds to her speed when in free-fall and terminates when maximum velocity is reached.

Jumping works like this. Without the varia suit, as long as the jump button is held for less than about 2.6 block heights (just higher than a save pillar), samus will travel upward at maximum velocity (excepting the first few frames of jumping animation). If the jump button is released within this time, samus' upward velocity will immediately go to 0 and she'll start falling. If the jump button is held any longer than the 2.6 block heights, then it's the same effect as holding the jump button for the entire jump, and gravity will start taking effect at that point, resulting in samus slowing down until she hits her head or she reaches a height of about 4.2 blocks, at which she'll be at the peak of her jump.

It's nearly the exact same system with the high jump boots, except the cutoff height is around 6.5 blocks, with maximum height of around 8.1 blocks.

This is what makes it so damn hard to jump perfectly onto save pillars, since you only have between that 2.5 and 2.6 margin to release the jump button. Too early and you'll be short, to long and you'll jump too high. And when you get the high jump boots, it's much easier to jump onto them because the 2.5 blocks is well below the new cutoff.

2007-06-11 02:39:40 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

And as I understand it, this is only considering one of three types of jumps (or technically, 2 of 6).

carlmmii

2007-06-11 03:08:15 am

Correct. Well, 2 of 8 if you consider spin-jumping. However, spin-jumping follows the same mechanic (the only thing affected is horizontal movement, which is obvious). Ducked jumping works the same except for the cutoff being 1.6 or 5.5 blocks, resuling in 3.2 or 7.1 blocks max height. Spring-ball jumping with high-jump boots has a cutoff of 3.2 blocks, resulting in a max height of 4.8 blocks. Can't test it without high-jump boots at the moment, but I'd guess that without high-jump boots, the spring ball has a cutoff of 2.0 blocks, with a max height of 3.6 blocks.

2007-06-11 03:12:38 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

I meant the other third kind of jump, not the spring ball. If you take a step or something you can jump a couple pixels (maybe only one, or one couple) higher. I think it's moozooh that told me the exact amount.

carlmmii

2007-06-11 10:48:25 am

The instant jump? I've run into something like that which seems to give me about 4-6 more pixels of jump height. Kind of like it immediately starts you going up for those first jump frames of animation instead of waiting until afterward. Allows you to reach 4.5 blocks high, just barely.

2007-06-11 06:07:34 pm

I forgot we were talking about Metroid II... I was talking about the other Metroids (since Metroid II Remixed plays like any of the Metroids that aren't II, if anything).

But yes, Metroid II's jumping physics are odd. :|