lowest percent?

2008-10-02 04:17:01 am

ok during an extended agon wallcrawl i found some really interesting stuff.

first, in the room with the first portal (that you take to jump guardian), there is a background skybox that i've never seen in any other room before. it basically looks like a desert with some dark mountains in the background. pretty neat looking and i wonder why it wasn't used anywhere else.
also in that portal room, there is a gigantic black cube below the rest of the room. like a few space jumps' worth of height gigantic. it doesn't have collision (you can walk through it) but its presence means that the standard for the actual room is very very low. no idea why there is this bigass black cube there. very baffling.

the most interesting thing i found was this: in mining station a (room with spider tracks/missile, grate that you open after space jump that leads to the pirate base) i wanted to see if the kinetic orb cannon would blow up the power bomb wall. so i erroneously ceiling warped into the small alcove with the cannon and i was happy to see that the cannon still worked in an erroneus room.
i don't know if it broke the wall, but i still fired up to the spider tracks, probably because the cannon's reach went past the wall anyway. but when i hit the spider track, i stuck to the wall and couldn't unmorph (not unexpected since the room was erroneous like that). bombs did nothing. the kinetic orb cannon trail stayed with me, it didn't disappear.
but most interesting of all, if i pressed B i could actually charge up boosts and use the boost ball, WITHOUT HAVING boost ball. this was a new file and i didn't have boost but i could charge up boosts anyway. wtf??

so apparently the kinetic orb cannon activates boosting powers for a short time... so i was wondering if MBI's destruction ability can only kill things that normal boosting could. MBI doesn't save the kinetic orb powers, it just puts you in a state of permanent boosting.

but i thought that if you could get into an erroneous kinetic orb cannon and not get stuck in a wall you may be able to still use boost powers... so if you could do this you might be able to use this to skip boost ball. still boosting for all the puzzles that need it, but without picking up the boost pickup, for another percent drop.

alternately, if you did the MBI glitch (seems to be the same "permanent boost" state) without having boost it may still enable boost like that..... which would in turn mean getting IS without boost, which means using spiderball to trigger IS, which means fighting spider guardian without boost, which is obviously not possible inside the room but i had the crazy idea you could do it from outside the room.
ugh but thinking more, i realize that if you did this you would need screw attack to escape from the spider guardian's area avoiding the missile, but obviously screw attack needs boostball/boost power in the first place. so maybe you could skip boost but pick up that missile to create a very obnoxious 14% game lol.
or maybe kill spider guardian, then use IS from elsewhere in the room to score the spiderball pickup and hopefully not be warped by the cutscene.

ok during an extended agon wallcrawl i found some really interesting stuff.

first, in the room with the first portal (that you take to jump guardian), there is a background skybox that i've never seen in any other room before. it basically looks like a desert with some dark mountains in the background. pretty neat looking and i wonder why it wasn't used anywhere else.
also in that portal room, there is a gigantic black cube below the rest of the room. like a few space jumps' worth of height gigantic. it doesn't have collision (you can walk through it) but its presence means that the standard for the actual room is very very low. no idea why there is this bigass black cube there. very baffling.

the most interesting thing i found was this: in mining station a (room with spider tracks/missile, grate that you open after space jump that leads to the pirate base) i wanted to see if the kinetic orb cannon would blow up the power bomb wall. so i erroneously ceiling warped into the small alcove with the cannon and i was happy to see that the cannon still worked in an erroneus room.
i don't know if it broke the wall, but i still fired up to the spider tracks, probably because the cannon's reach went past the wall anyway. but when i hit the spider track, i stuck to the wall and couldn't unmorph (not unexpected since the room was erroneous like that). bombs did nothing. the kinetic orb cannon trail stayed with me, it didn't disappear.
but most interesting of all, if i pressed B i could actually charge up boosts and use the boost ball, WITHOUT HAVING boost ball. this was a new file and i didn't have boost but i could charge up boosts anyway. wtf??

so apparently the kinetic orb cannon activates boosting powers for a short time... so i was wondering if MBI's destruction ability can only kill things that normal boosting could. MBI doesn't save the kinetic orb powers, it just puts you in a state of permanent boosting.

but i thought that if you could get into an erroneous kinetic orb cannon and not get stuck in a wall you may be able to still use boost powers... so if you could do this you might be able to use this to skip boost ball. still boosting for all the puzzles that need it, but without picking up the boost pickup, for another percent drop.

alternately, if you did the MBI glitch (seems to be the same "permanent boost" state) without having boost it may still enable boost like that..... which would in turn mean getting IS without boost, which means using spiderball to trigger IS, which means fighting spider guardian without boost, which is obviously not possible inside the room but i had the crazy idea you could do it from outside the room.
ugh but thinking more, i realize that if you did this you would need screw attack to escape from the spider guardian's area avoiding the missile, but obviously screw attack needs boostball/boost power in the first place. so maybe you could skip boost but pick up that missile to create a very obnoxious 14% game lol.
or maybe kill spider guardian, then use IS from elsewhere in the room to score the spiderball pickup and hopefully not be warped by the cutscene.

bushwacker

2008-10-07 10:21:45 am

erroneous kinetic orb cannons are definitely very strange... in a normal one your controls are completely locked, but in erroneous you can control yourself somewhat. unmorphing, changing the trajectory.
so in the transit tubes in lower torvus if you use the erroneous cannon you can stop yourself halfway between the cannon and the rest of the tunnel. if you do this you can move around and even boost but the rest of your controls are locked; you can't lay bombs or power bombs, and if you roll out of the tube back to the door, you can unmorph but you won't be able to shoot your gun. then if you're morphed and you roll near the door, you will actually disappear from the screen, leaving only a shadow.
if that isn't weird enough, then if you try to switch rooms now (at least while morphed, didn't try unmorphed but it's probably the same), you'll lose COMPLETE control of everything. you can't move, can't bomb, nothing. you can pause and bring up the map but otherwise you're completely stranded.
these effects won't happen if you just go all the way through the tube and hit the second kinetic orb symbol thing. so the cause is that you're just stuck in orb cannon mode since you never 'finished' the firing. seems somewhat related to MBI.

on that note i wasn't able to get MBI without boost despite what seemed like some good ideas. but a new idea is to interrupt a cannon's firing by activating a cutscene. i can't think of any places you could do this just yet but there's bound to be at least one.

erroneous kinetic orb cannons are definitely very strange... in a normal one your controls are completely locked, but in erroneous you can control yourself somewhat. unmorphing, changing the trajectory. 
so in the transit tubes in lower torvus if you use the erroneous cannon you can stop yourself halfway between the cannon and the rest of the tunnel. if you do this you can move around and even boost but the rest of your controls are locked; you can't lay bombs or power bombs, and if you roll out of the tube back to the door, you can unmorph but you won't be able to shoot your gun. then if you're morphed and you roll near the door, you will actually disappear from the screen, leaving only a shadow.
if that isn't weird enough, then if you try to switch rooms now (at least while morphed, didn't try unmorphed but it's probably the same), you'll lose COMPLETE control of everything. you can't move, can't bomb, nothing. you can pause and bring up the map but otherwise you're completely stranded. 
these effects won't happen if you just go all the way through the tube and hit the second kinetic orb symbol thing. so the cause is that you're just stuck in orb cannon mode since you never 'finished' the firing. seems somewhat related to MBI.

on that note i wasn't able to get MBI without boost despite what seemed like some good ideas. but a new idea is to interrupt a cannon's firing by activating a cutscene. i can't think of any places you could do this just yet but there's bound to be at least one.

Jerry9

2008-10-07 12:13:16 pm

not evil,just hungry

would the gfmc compound map station quailify for what you're looking for?

bushwacker

2008-10-07 01:29:37 pm

by interrupting it i mean, being able to do something to start a cutscene then get in the cannon before the cutscene starts. the idea is you will be teleported from the cannon/have it not fire due to the cutscene, but keep the cannon's power. just like the old way for MBI, you're in the cannon but the cannon itself actually disappears so doesn't fire. so i think getting a cutscene might work like floaty jump does. gfmc compound wouldn't work for that reason.

but the transit tubes in lower torvus i think still have some potential, i will do more tests with them later.

Master ZED

2008-10-08 01:50:46 am

Quote from LeCoureur103:

but the transit tubes in lower torvus i think still have some potential

No they don't. They're not Kinetic Orb Cannons, which is why you don't lose MBI by using them.

bushwacker

2008-10-09 12:26:50 am

Quote from Master ZED:

Quote from LeCoureur103:

but the transit tubes in lower torvus i think still have some potential

No they don't. They're not Kinetic Orb Cannons, which is why you don't lose MBI by using them.

oh that's bizarre.
but you're right, they don't have any potential it seems. with some trickiness i was able to get out of the tubes with the controls disabled halfway between cannons, and it turns out that once the transit tubes are unloaded and a new room is secretized, your controls go back to normal. so you can't really do anything with them
i'll keep looking for other stuff though :P

bushwacker

2008-11-02 05:17:33 am

i dont know what configuration of low% this would help, but i found a workaround for the lower torvus key w/o gravity boost or power bomb.

go to the dark version of hydrodynamo and go in the save station. you can get IS off the door there, same spot as if you were going to morph sw but just stick to the doorframe and get IS instead. when you have it, just roll to the bottom of the room by the power bomb door, make sure the room with the chykka key is loaded, and boost. two things will happen simultaneously: you'll pick up the key, and you will also teleport into the bomb slot that rotates the cage higher up in the room. fortunately, the bomb slot's cutscene deactivates the light show glitch so you can continue the game without any trouble.
when getting IS, if you have dark suit it should be possible without any etanks. if you don't have dark suit i think you could quickly enter the morph sw, ceiling warp into the save station room (99 energy lasts about 15 seconds w/o dark suit), and get IS by sticking to a wall inside the light bubble. would be very hard though

i dont know what configuration of low% this would help, but i found a workaround for the lower torvus key w/o gravity boost or power bomb.

go to the dark version of hydrodynamo and go in the save station. you can get IS off the door there, same spot as if you were going to morph sw but just stick to the doorframe and get IS instead. when you have it, just roll to the bottom of the room by the power bomb door, make sure the room with the chykka key is loaded, and boost. two things will happen simultaneously: you'll pick up the key, and you will also teleport into the bomb slot that rotates the cage higher up in the room. fortunately, the bomb slot's cutscene deactivates the light show glitch so you can continue the game without any trouble. 
when getting IS, if you have dark suit it should be possible without any etanks. if you don't have dark suit i think you could quickly enter the morph sw, ceiling warp into the save station room (99 energy lasts about 15 seconds w/o dark suit), and get IS by sticking to a wall inside the light bubble. would be very hard though

doninss

2008-11-02 09:47:34 pm

Great find. We knew IS would transport to the cannon, but I guess nobody tried using it near the door to get the key.

bushwacker

2008-11-02 10:15:19 pm

bomb slot, not cannon. and i realized what this is useful for-- skipping spider for low%. it would be a legit percent drop without need for a pb expansion/grav boost in its place. route would be:

agon like normal,
torvus to get boost (and 1st chykka key),
screw attack (front of sanc- long float) and echo/anni skip,
back to torvus and wallcrawl to lower torvus, IS for 2nd chykka key,
back to upper torvus (sa-sw in torvus temple), last chykka key/dark visor,
floaty jump wallcrawl to dark lower torvus to fight pb guardian without spider,
light suit, sky temple cleanup, endgame

only thing in the way of spider skip is, like always, 3 or 4 of emperor ing 2's tentacles. deserves another look imo

doninss

2008-11-04 10:25:10 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

bomb slot, not cannon...

Upon rereading, I see that now.

SkippyJr

2008-11-06 03:10:10 pm

Has anyone been able to wallcrawl past that door to get to the bottom half of Lower Dark Torvus? Otherwise reaching PB Guardian still requires an additional item.

Also, could one IS key #2 *after* the light suit, using a plain SASW w/o float to reach PB Guardain (if that door cooperates)? That's a great find BTW.

bushwacker

Edit history:

bushwacker: 2008-11-07 01:10:48 am

2008-11-06 04:53:18 pm

i was just thinking about that area skippy. i think it will be possible to use IS to warp past the second pb door into one of the pb guardian's bomb slots... i will test this soonish

but you still have to get past the first door. i have been able to shift rooms from hydro station to hydro shaft in the light world. it's kind of tough but doable, as long as you have shot the door first. UNFORTUNATELY, the door in the dark world is obviously a power bomb door and you can't shoot it. but you can still secretize easily. so two ideas:
1) when it secretizes, have it load around you.
2) do a ceiling warp into the secretized room.
after that you can stick to the wall and get IS easily. then rub against the pb door to switch rooms, roll down the steps to load the next room, and use the IS power for the warp.

it will be a very tricky operation obviously. and you'll probably want MBI just to survive.

edit: IS warping into the pb guardian fight doesn't work, it just freezes the game... i tried by the door, by the portal, by the steps, but nothing worked... back to the drawing board

i was just thinking about that area skippy. i think it will be possible to use IS to warp past the second pb door into one of the pb guardian's bomb slots...  i will test this soonish

but you still have to get past the first door. i have been able to shift rooms from hydro station to hydro shaft in the light world. it's kind of tough but doable, as long as you have shot the door first. UNFORTUNATELY, the door in the dark world is obviously a power bomb door and you can't shoot it. but you can still secretize easily. so two ideas:
1) when it secretizes, have it load around you. 
2) do a ceiling warp into the secretized room.
after that you can stick to the wall and get IS easily. then rub against the pb door to switch rooms, roll down the steps to load the next room, and use the IS power for the warp.

it will be a very tricky operation obviously. and you'll probably want MBI just to survive.

edit: IS warping into the pb guardian fight doesn't work, it just freezes the game... i tried by the door, by the portal, by the steps, but nothing worked... back to the drawing board

bushwacker

2008-11-10 11:45:18 pm

today ive made the wallcrawl in agon from mining plaza all the way to dark beam, without bombs or space jump. i made it to the nearby save station too. notes:

-through the whole wallcrawl i never triggered any of the scripted stuff. the pirate fight outside the base, the two pirates with the phazon barrel, the pirates in the command center, or the dark samus gate closing scene. the triggers don't extend into the sw apparently
-i ceiling warped into the room with dark beam but was surprised to find a secondary ceiling inside the room's boundaries. it was tricky to warp through that ceiling too but it worked and i got dark beam.
-i got db without even fighting dark samus. if you then try to backtrack to the halfpipe room the blue doors will lock but not the purple one. i then fought dark samus and the doors unlocked like normal.
-it is possible to blow up the halfpipe from the other side but your missiles pass straight through the back, so you have to push against it and aim against part of the front. hard to explain
-after the dark samus fight, if you head to the main front room of the pirate base dark samus will still appear and close the gates. you can still shoot open them with the dark beam from the wrong side though
-if you enter the big courtyard with the turrets from behind, the lasers still block the doorway and there is also a giant invisible collision box blocking it too. so you can't get through (unless, presumably, you fought the pirates/turrets from inside the secret world to get rid of it, though the cutscenes might warp you back into the room?)
-in the big command center with the portal, the big team of pirates will just stand in front of the portal and not do anything. they don't even collision. i think doninss had a video of this
-in the room with the kinetic orb cannon/spider tracks where you scan a thing to open the big gate, i tried to scan that thing from the sw. the whole room has a massive invisible ceiling and it isn't scannable from that high. if you got closer, maybe it could work but i don't know how you would get the necessary height..

so currently i'm trapped inside the pirate base, lol. only way out imo is a morph sw. i looked around and there are a lot of rooms to work with, but only two that seemed to have the right geometry where you do a mini warp in the doorframe. the one before the save point, and the one with the dark beam (i was also able to stick to both of these rooms' walls and spin freely so i guess those are two new IS spots as well). i assume it's just a matter of finding a pixel perfect spot and getting lucky to warp into the sw so i'll try for a bit later.. i hope to be able to wallcrawl back to normal agon and still maybe do something about skipping that translator.

today ive made the wallcrawl in agon from mining plaza all the way to dark beam, without bombs or space jump. i made it to the nearby save station too. notes:

-through the whole wallcrawl i never triggered any of the scripted stuff. the pirate fight outside the base, the two pirates with the phazon barrel, the pirates in the command center, or the dark samus gate closing scene. the triggers don't extend into the sw apparently
-i ceiling warped into the room with dark beam but was surprised to find a secondary ceiling inside the room's boundaries. it was tricky to warp through that ceiling too but it worked and i got dark beam.
-i got db without even fighting dark samus. if you then try to backtrack to the halfpipe room the blue doors will lock but not the purple one. i then fought dark samus and the doors unlocked like normal.
-it is possible to blow up the halfpipe from the other side but your missiles pass straight through the back, so you have to push against it and aim against part of the front. hard to explain
-after the dark samus fight, if you head to the main front room of the pirate base dark samus will still appear and close the gates. you can still shoot open them with the dark beam from the wrong side though
-if you enter the big courtyard with the turrets from behind, the lasers still block the doorway and there is also a giant invisible collision box blocking it too. so you can't get through (unless, presumably, you fought the pirates/turrets from inside the secret world to get rid of it, though the cutscenes might warp you back into the room?)
-in the big command center with the portal, the big team of pirates will just stand in front of the portal and not do anything. they don't even collision. i think doninss had a video of this
-in the room with the kinetic orb cannon/spider tracks where you scan a thing to open the big gate, i tried to scan that thing from the sw. the whole room has a massive invisible ceiling and it isn't scannable from that high. if you got closer, maybe it could work but i don't know how you would get the necessary height..

so currently i'm trapped inside the pirate base, lol. only way out imo is a morph sw. i looked around and there are a lot of rooms to work with, but only two that seemed to have the right geometry where you do a mini warp in the doorframe. the one before the save point, and the one with the dark beam (i was also able to stick to both of these rooms' walls and spin freely so i guess those are two new IS spots as well). i assume it's just a matter of finding a pixel perfect spot and getting lucky to warp into the sw so i'll try for a bit later.. i hope to be able to wallcrawl back to normal agon and still maybe do something about skipping that translator.

Master ZED

2008-11-11 12:44:13 am

Quote from LeCoureur103:

i looked around and there are a lot of rooms to work with, but only two that seemed to have the right geometry where you do a mini warp in the doorframe. the one before the save point, and the one with the dark beam (i was also able to stick to both of these rooms' walls and spin freely so i guess those are two new IS spots as well). i assume it's just a matter of finding a pixel perfect spot and getting lucky to warp into the sw so i'll try for a bit later.

The door frame must also be hollow.

bushwacker

2008-11-11 12:47:52 am

what does that mean

Master ZED

2008-11-11 12:54:38 am

It means that one side of the door frame or the other can't be solid (theoretically just on the bottom, but only those frames that weren't solid at all on one side have produced a SW up to now; Grand Windchamber never seemed to work), that if you roll into it with the Morph Ball, you get caught in a small crevice at slow speeds and appear to hit a bump otherwise. You can even stick the camera through some of these, like the one in the lower Torvus and Dark Torvus save stations (which allows you to see the mysterious lock that's never used).

I started calling them hollow door rings or something at one point, though I've never been quite sure if hollow was the right word to use. Given how you find working frames (by rolling through them and watching how the ball reacts), it seemed to work fine.

bushwacker

Edit history:

bushwacker: 2008-12-13 09:02:11 pm

2008-12-13 07:57:49 pm

master zed, im curious if you ever found a place to get MBI besides gfmc compound. i'm having a lot of trouble with it there...

edit; also in your original MBI post you mentioned that the warning meter could warn you about the fire in the ship. i can't see the meter, do you have to do something special to get it back?

DJGrenola

2008-12-13 08:33:01 pm

Er, wow. I should have been keeping an eye on this topic.

Awesome work LC103, carry on.

Master ZED

2008-12-14 01:55:27 am

Quote from LeCoureur103:

master zed, im curious if you ever found a place to get MBI besides gfmc compound. i'm having a lot of trouble with it there...

I couldn't come up with one for the normal game, unfortunately. The problem is that you need a room that has three things:

1. An active Kinetic Orb Cannon.
2. A door or other area to activate IS that not only teleports you into the cannon, but dumps the room you're in in the same instance.
3. An event trigger or station to remove the light show, as you'll need to unmorph to avoid being stuck blind in a secret world.

Doors are the only places I've found that fit 2., and the only other one I remember is Sanctuary Map Station/Reactor Core. This one is unusable because you get dumped underground, Sanctuary Map Station is the loaded room, and it has a deep standard with a lot of open air around the room, including around the KOC. You can only use the Reactor Core cannon if you have moonjump.

The worst part is that even if you could escape the fall and get back to Reactor Core when it loaded without moonjump, the doors are disabled during the light show bug unless they're already physically open, and the room dump eliminates that possibility. True, the spider tracks in there can negate the light show bug as long as you stay morphed, but good luck reaching them blind without the cannon or moonjump to help. GFMC Compound is the only place in the game I could think of that mixes all three of those factors (the cannon, the door, and a map station), and I haven't played the game recently enough to rethink the issue.

Quote from LeCoureur103:

edit; also in your original MBI post you mentioned that the warning meter could warn you about the fire in the ship. i can't see the meter, do you have to do something special to get it back?

Turn the HUD Lag off.

[quote="LeCoureur103"]
master zed, im curious if you ever found a place to get MBI besides gfmc compound. i'm having a lot of trouble with it there...
[/quote]I couldn't come up with one for the normal game, unfortunately.  The problem is that you need a room that has three things:

1. An active Kinetic Orb Cannon.
2. A door or other area to activate IS that not only teleports you into the cannon, but dumps the room you're in in the same instance.
3. An event trigger or station to remove the light show, as you'll need to unmorph to avoid being stuck blind in a secret world.

Doors are the only places I've found that fit 2., and the only other one I remember is Sanctuary Map Station/Reactor Core.  This one is unusable because you get dumped underground, Sanctuary Map Station is the loaded room, and it has a deep standard with a lot of open air around the room, including around the KOC.  You can only use the Reactor Core cannon if you have moonjump.

The worst part is that even if you could escape the fall and get back to Reactor Core when it loaded without moonjump, the doors are disabled during the light show bug unless they're already physically open, and the room dump eliminates that possibility.  True, the spider tracks in there can negate the light show bug as long as you stay morphed, but good luck reaching them blind without the cannon or moonjump to help.  GFMC Compound is the only place in the game I could think of that mixes all three of those factors (the cannon, the door, and a map station), and I haven't played the game recently enough to rethink the issue.

[quote="LeCoureur103"]edit; also in your original MBI post you mentioned that the warning meter could warn you about the fire in the ship. i can't see the meter, do you have to do something special to get it back?
[/quote]Turn the HUD Lag off.

AJAX

2008-12-17 06:00:24 pm

“Well done is better than well said”

Is it possible to open seeker doors with super missiles?

Phazar

2008-12-17 07:17:10 pm

...

No, you need to target all the pods at once. Super Missile won't help you there.

bushwacker

2008-12-17 07:41:12 pm

...which is fine because both seekers and supers will be skipped in 14%

AJAX

2008-12-17 08:01:22 pm

“Well done is better than well said”

I kind of feel stupid now because I was watching DJ's 17% and forgot seeker doors were purple. So he was hitting super doors with supers but I thought they were seeker doors. I'm pretty new to echoes. I only played through it once or twice, years ago. Watching the low% runs have recently inspired me to pick it up again.