lowest percent?

2008-09-06 03:08:45 am

yeah i read that topic and there was some good stuff, thanks

i can confirm that the wallcrawl from sanctuary elevator to get past the dark visor/seeker door is possible.... it's very very difficult, mostly because the room proportions for sanctuary entrance are massive. the terminal fall extends incredibly far into the sw, even into the boundaries of the surrounding rooms, so the only option is to get into the skywalk since you can't come up from underneath. then when you're on the far side of the room, by the white door, you basically have to morph and push towards the white door, which is some hundred feet below and obscured by graphics. i fortunately got that part the first time i tried so i really dont know how hard it ACTUALLY is. but after that part the next two rooms are very easy to pass, finishing with a ceiling warp into reactor core. but if you mess anything up (mostly related to the terminal fall trigger) then your consolation prize is having to do the half-hour long float again.

yeah i read that topic and there was some good stuff, thanks

i can confirm that the wallcrawl from sanctuary elevator to get past the dark visor/seeker door is possible.... it's very very difficult, mostly because the room proportions for sanctuary entrance are massive. the terminal fall extends incredibly far into the sw, even into the boundaries of the surrounding rooms, so the only option is to get into the skywalk since you can't come up from underneath. then when you're on the far side of the room, by the white door, you basically have to morph and push towards the white door, which is some hundred feet below and obscured by graphics. i fortunately got that part the first time i tried so i really dont know how hard it ACTUALLY is. but after that part the next two rooms are very easy to pass, finishing with a ceiling warp into reactor core. but if you mess anything up (mostly related to the terminal fall trigger) then your consolation prize is having to do the half-hour long float again.

SkippyJr

2008-09-07 04:12:17 pm

Your route looks fine. I'd suggest doing the annihilator skip when in Sanctuary so that you can get the Light Suit just afterwards. This will allow you to get the sky temple key in Lower Torvus while facing PB Guardian, so that you leave Lower Torvus once. Also, leave Santuary from the front, there are PB doors blocking the path otherwise. The Agon side entrance will be nice once PBs are collected.

The door between Torvus Temple and the elevator probably cannot be crawled around. I too spent many hours trying to get past it; and then doninss figured out how to get into the elevator room, getting past that supers requirement. Ignore my extra PB flapping, it hasn't been needed since the wasp hive dash SW.

bushwacker

2008-09-07 04:50:24 pm

yeah i've been continuing to work on the route and it's looking very do-able now.

after making that huge bitch of a wallcrawl to get into sanctuary proper, i did screw attack easily enough (i have grapple, supers, extra e-tanks and missile though just for ease, this isn't a real run yet). then spider/the cobalt skip was easy too. the method djgrenola used in 17% to escape after spider guardian won't work since you don't have pb's yet. so i was able to easily just screw attack sw right back into the tunnel after getting spider ball. there's no terminal fall in this room so i fell super far but it's simple enough to aether jump back up (or just not fall in the first place) and re-enter on the other side of the big fence.

then i did echo visor/anni skip (with 3 etanks it was still really hard, major respect to djgrenola for doing it with none) figuring it made the most sense.

to escape sanctuary you have to go from the front because all the back exits are blocked by pb doors. the front is blocked by the dark visor/seeker door still (screw that thing seriously) so i wallcrawled past it, starting from the hall of combat mastery sa-sw and re-entering the map via ceiling warp in the room right after the dv/s door.

back in temple grounds two ways are blocked by pb doors/gates; and you can go to great temple and save but the emerald door is in the way. so there are two options to get around this: the sa-sw in gmfc compound, or the great temple elevator room. this is as far as i've gotten but the wallcrawl should be easy; i'm thinking just go past the pb gate in the room right before gmfc compound, re-enter the map, and use the temple assembly site elevator to get to great temple and light suit finally.

yeah i've been continuing to work on the route and it's looking very do-able now.

after making that huge bitch of a wallcrawl to get into sanctuary proper, i did screw attack easily enough (i have grapple, supers, extra e-tanks and missile though just for ease, this isn't a real run yet). then spider/the cobalt skip was easy too. the method djgrenola used in 17% to escape after spider guardian won't work since you don't have pb's yet. so i was able to easily just screw attack sw right back into the tunnel after getting spider ball. there's no terminal fall in this room so i fell super far but it's simple enough to aether jump back up (or just not fall in the first place) and re-enter on the other side of the big fence.

then i did echo visor/anni skip (with 3 etanks it was still really hard, major respect to djgrenola for doing it with none) figuring it made the most sense.

to escape sanctuary you have to go from the front because all the back exits are blocked by pb doors. the front is blocked by the dark visor/seeker door still (screw that thing seriously) so i wallcrawled past it, starting from the hall of combat mastery sa-sw and re-entering the map via ceiling warp in the room right after the dv/s door.

back in temple grounds two ways are blocked by pb doors/gates; and you can go to great temple and save but the emerald door is in the way. so there are two options to get around this: the sa-sw in gmfc compound, or the great temple elevator room. this is as far as i've gotten but the wallcrawl should be easy; i'm thinking just go past the pb gate in the room right before gmfc compound, re-enter the map, and use the temple assembly site elevator to get to great temple and light suit finally.

bushwacker

2008-09-11 01:46:38 am

more progress....

using the temple elevator A sw i wallcrawled back to gfmc compound and past the pb door to windchamber gateway. there i accidentally hit the terminal fall so i couldn't complete the wallcrawl but honestly there shouldn't be a problem with it. so use that to get back to torvus. trying to wallcrawl the other direction, back towards temple assembly site, the game crashed when trying to dump the room before gfmc compound, the one with the pb gate inside the room.... second time that happened so maybe that route won't work. but the other one will for sure.

so back in torvus it's finally time for that infamous wallcrawl to lower torvus starting from forgotten bridge. i've lost count of how many times i've done this one so consider it confirmed..

now to get to pb guardian is easy enough, just raise the floor of hydrodynamo and take the spider track in alpha blogg's room.
after that blow the pb hatch above, grab chykka key 2 FINALLY, continue up through the pb door and make your way back to the light world through gathering hall... will have to have the portal opened ahead of time i guess.

to get back up hydrodynamo requires a wallcrawl from the transport tunnel sa-sw, through gathering hall, the connecting tunnel, and finally up hydrodynamo to ceiling warp into the save station. i made this wallcrawl no problem.
i had the idea to use a screw attack bounce off the central pillar in hydrodynamo to land on the highest part where you can jump out of the water but the bounce didn't get far enough... it still might be possible but it would be very precise i guess.

as an alternate way of doing all this, i figured you could wallcrawl from transport tunnel down past unraised floor of hydrodynamo, fight pb guardian like normal, and when you got back up around to hydrodynamo the floor wouldn't be raised and you could just take the morph ball cannon back up. this wallcrawl isn't yet confirmed so stay tuned

more progress....

using the temple elevator A sw i wallcrawled back to gfmc compound and past the pb door to windchamber gateway. there i accidentally hit the terminal fall so i couldn't complete the wallcrawl but honestly there shouldn't be a problem with it. so use that to get back to torvus. trying to wallcrawl the other direction, back towards temple assembly site, the game crashed when trying to dump the room before gfmc compound, the one with the pb gate inside the room.... second time that happened so maybe that route won't work. but the other one will for sure.

so back in torvus it's finally time for that infamous wallcrawl to lower torvus starting from forgotten bridge. i've lost count of how many times i've done this one so consider it confirmed..

now to get to pb guardian is easy enough, just raise the floor of hydrodynamo and take the spider track in alpha blogg's room.
after that blow the pb hatch above, grab chykka key 2 FINALLY, continue up through the pb door and make your way back to the light world through gathering hall... will have to have the portal opened ahead of time i guess.

to get back up hydrodynamo requires a wallcrawl from the transport tunnel sa-sw, through gathering hall, the connecting tunnel, and finally up hydrodynamo to ceiling warp into the save station. i made this wallcrawl no problem.
i had the idea to use a screw attack bounce off the central pillar in hydrodynamo to land on the highest part where you can jump out of the water but the bounce didn't get far enough... it still might be possible but it would be very precise i guess.

as an alternate way of doing all this, i figured you could wallcrawl from transport tunnel down past unraised floor of hydrodynamo, fight pb guardian like normal, and when you got back up around to hydrodynamo the floor wouldn't be raised and you could just take the morph ball cannon back up. this wallcrawl isn't yet confirmed so stay tuned

bushwacker

2008-09-16 05:06:35 pm

some progress-
after getting back up hydrodynamo you can take the elevator to upper torvus and since the super missile door is only on one side, you can walk through into torvus temple. using the sa-sw in there you can wallcrawl past the super door or the translator door and re-enter the map somewhere; i went all the way to great bridge but that's probably unnecessary.
now it's easy to head to dark torvus and kill chykka, especially with light suit.
sky temple key cleanup: i got all the keys from agon, torvus, and sanctuary with no problem. there are a couple wallcrawls needed to do so but nothing too bad.
now there are the three keys in temple grounds. one is past a seeker door in the dark version of gfmc compound and i almost made the wallcrawl but got stuck at the end, shouldn't be a problem though. another requires that plain of dark worship sa-sw from doninss which also shouldn't be much problem. finally there's the one in dark landing site which i believe someone has already done... after that it's a straight shot to the sky temple for the endgame.

on another note i saw that if you have MBI it's maybe possible to skip dark suit; it seems like the main problem would be boost guardian with 0 tanks; did anyone ever manage it? or if it were possible to skip spider ball and take a pb expansion to make 14%, you could do the boost guardian instant kill no problem. so it all hinges on emperor ing's second round... i'll have to test that when i get there

some progress-
after getting back up hydrodynamo you can take the elevator to upper torvus and since the super missile door is only on one side, you can walk through into torvus temple. using the sa-sw in there you can wallcrawl past the super door or the translator door and re-enter the map somewhere; i went all the way to great bridge but that's probably unnecessary.
now it's easy to head to dark torvus and kill chykka, especially with light suit. 
sky temple key cleanup: i got all the keys from agon, torvus, and sanctuary with no problem. there are a couple wallcrawls needed to do so but nothing too bad.
now there are the three keys in temple grounds. one is past a seeker door in the dark version of gfmc compound and i almost made the wallcrawl but got stuck at the end, shouldn't be a problem though. another requires that plain of dark worship sa-sw from doninss which also shouldn't be much problem. finally there's the one in dark landing site which i believe someone has already done... after that it's a straight shot to the sky temple for the endgame.

on another note i saw that if you have MBI it's maybe possible to skip dark suit; it seems like the main problem would be boost guardian with 0 tanks; did anyone ever manage it? or if it were possible to skip spider ball and take a pb expansion to make 14%, you could do the boost guardian instant kill no problem. so it all hinges on emperor ing's second round... i'll have to test that when i get there

mattk210

2008-09-16 11:21:00 pm

Is this just a test to find the lowest percent, or are you actually going to go for a speedrun after? I would love to see more secret world runs: DJG's 17% was amazing!

bushwacker

2008-09-17 12:18:21 am

well right now im just testing for 14% to fill in all the gaps. it was thought to be possible but no one knew of a route or anything so i'm just filling in all the blanks. i picked up super missiles and gravity, plus etanks and missiles, to make it easier, but when i finish i will have legitimately skipped seekers, emerald trans, cobalt trans, gravity boost, annihilator beam, and echo visor, plus any pb expansion. but it will prove 14% is possible. then i may look at dark suit for possible 13% but thinking about the route it would be unbelievably hard and a "speedrun" would be at least 4 hours imo

SkippyJr

2008-09-17 12:41:30 am

Dark Landing Site key (should be last): Take the Abandoned Worksite SW all the way to Dark Landing Site (its the closest without worrying about Super doors). Wrong Room DSL and bombhop+unmorph (just before you land) near the center of the room to glitch into the room. Collect the key and then walk right through the Ingworm and back into the SW. You'll have to keep wallcrallwing to the final place to get past the Seeker door.

Keep us posted!

Paltheos

2008-09-17 12:26:07 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

well right now im just testing for 14% to fill in all the gaps. it was thought to be possible but no one knew of a route or anything so i'm just filling in all the blanks. i picked up super missiles and gravity, plus etanks and missiles, to make it easier, but when i finish i will have legitimately skipped seekers, emerald trans, cobalt trans, gravity boost, annihilator beam, and echo visor, plus any pb expansion. but it will prove 14% is possible. then i may look at dark suit for possible 13% but thinking about the route it would be unbelievably hard and a "speedrun" would be at least 4 hours imo

I'm not very familiar with intensive secret world running of this game, but how could you possibly skip both the Dark Suit and the Annihilator Beam without any energy tanks?

bushwacker

2008-09-17 12:51:21 pm

if you use the morph ball invulnerability (MBI) glitch that master ZED found, then you don't take damage in the dark world if you are in morphball form. so if you rely heavily on bombing across ceilings/walls instead of skywalks and aether during the annihilator wallcrawl, you can hopefully make it without taking very much damage. i think it seems very possible myself

Master ZED

2008-09-17 03:38:28 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

if you use the morph ball invulnerability (MBI) glitch that master ZED found, then you don't take damage in the dark world if you are in morphball form. so if you rely heavily on bombing across ceilings/walls instead of skywalks and aether during the annihilator wallcrawl, you can hopefully make it without taking very much damage. i think it seems very possible myself

For skipping Dark Suit? That's not gonna happen unless you've found a way to kill Boost Guardian without the Dark Suit or any e-tanks.

I think what you're forgetting is that while IS is available at any time, you need Boost, Spider or (if you cheat) Death Ball to get the positioning glitch to trigger. Out of those three, only Boost Ball will actually work (though don't quote me on that; I've had no reason to test the Death Ball). The only chance we have to skip the Dark Suit with MBI is to skip the first portal.

bushwacker

2008-09-17 03:49:23 pm

if 14% skipping spider but getting a pb expansion is possible, then you can use that to kill boosty no problem. after that go get screw attack, then back to temple grounds for MBI, and back to sanctuary for the extended wallcrawl to skip annihilator/echo visor.
that hinges on being able to skip spider but getting an early pb, which hinges afaik on being to beat emperor ing's second round without spider.
if that's not possible then boosty with no tanks would have to be done but who knows, maybe it's possible

Master ZED

2008-09-17 04:33:27 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

if 14% skipping spider but getting a pb expansion is possible, then you can use that to kill boosty no problem.

Well... if you could actually get to the fight with a Power Bomb, then I guess it could be a VMR-like situation. What worries me is that even if you get the kill, his death animation could eat too much time, guaranteeing your own death. It would certainly be a difficult feat no matter how you look at it. Even if you couldn't get 13%, 14% without Dark Suit would still be impressive.

SkippyJr

2008-09-18 09:26:32 am

kip got past Boosty with no tanks, Varia, and the extra PB.
http://www.metroid2002.com/echoes/boss_tricks_boost_guardian.php (2nd video)

Any progress on Emp Ing II w/o spider?

bushwacker

2008-09-18 02:14:41 pm

ah good video there. doing it without the pb would be hellish but even silent echo thought it was possible, he wrote a strategy in this post but i guess never got it to work: http://forum.metroid2002.com/index.php/topic,5207.0.html

i havent tried emp ing, been busy and havent even gotten all the sky temple keys yet. i encourage others to try though

bushwacker

Edit history:

bushwacker: 2008-09-20 02:18:45 pm

2008-09-19 04:28:50 pm

okay here's what i've got now.

the sky temple key in ing reliquary: i was able to wallcrawl from dark gfmc compound past the seeker door, all the way to ing reliquary with no problem. the door is purple on both sides though, so one must use the ing reliquary sa-sw to wallcrawl back. i wasn't able to get into the sw, it is a very tough one, but having made the wallcrawl in one direction i see no reason it shouldn't work going the other way.

the sky temple key past plain of dark worship: obviously you have to use the sa-sw from doninss there to wallcrawl past the seeker door. i couldn't get into the sw, very close though. the seeker door is apparently double-sided as well but there's that sw on the other side too. the rooms are very simple so the wallcrawl should not be a problem. so i didn't do it but i consider it confirmed.

the last sky temple key is past the super door in hall of eyes. using abandoned base sw i wallcrawled past it, all the way to dark landing site, and entered it erroneously to get the key. i didn't walk through the ingworm like skippy said, i just moved along the far wall away from the door and the room disappeared. no idea why but once it was gone i continued to wallcrawl all the way to dark hall of honored dead past the last seeker door. having picked up seekers to get those other two keys, i entered the sky temple.

so as far i'm concerned 14% is confirmed. you'd have to be crazy to want to do all these tricks in one go, or to speedrun it. maybe someday i'll go for it though ;p

emperor ing 2 is a lot more fearsome than i remembered. there's just gas everywhere so it's hard to see, you're constantly taking damage, and the black goo monsters harass you everywhere you go. but it seems easy enough to farm health and power bombs from them.
using spiderball i can confirm that there are several standable spots on the top of empy's shell, on the ends of the little web-looking thing. there's a tall invisible pillar sticking straight up out of the top so you can't move around at all up there. you may be able to get up using a 3bsj from the ground, or a single bsj balanced off one of the ridges at the bottom of the shell.

as for the tentacles themselves, they can be made to come out pretty easily by standing on the ground and pushing up against the shell and jumping repeatedly. by doing a 3bj off the ground and laying a power bomb at the top, then unmorphing and jumping against the shell to make the tentacles come out, i was able to kill 4 tentacles out of 11. it was late and i got tired so i quit trying, but i'm confident you could get at least 8 of the tentacles by doing this. for the ones that are really high i'm not sure what you would need to do. 3bj off one of the ridges, maybe. or get on top of the shell and make the tentacle come out somehow and drop a pb on the way down.
the thing is, it doesn't seem TOTALLY hopeless to beat him without spider ball, but it would certainly be very difficult, especially with only 99 health... i'll keep experimenting later

edit; i killed seven tentacles.. i made an eighth come out a couple times but couldnt get to him with a pb
i wonder if MBI would hurt the tentacles, or stop you from taking damage from the gas
i also wonder about skipping light suit... seems only needed for two sky keys? in dungeon and dark torvus entrance? maybe you can wallcrawl below the dark waterline... i know you can wallcrawl to the one in dark sanctuary entrance

okay here's what i've got now.

the sky temple key in ing reliquary: i was able to wallcrawl from dark gfmc compound past the seeker door, all the way to ing reliquary with no problem. the door is purple on both sides though, so one must use the ing reliquary sa-sw to wallcrawl back. i wasn't able to get into the sw, it is a very tough one, but having made the wallcrawl in one direction i see no reason it shouldn't work going the other way.

the sky temple key past plain of dark worship: obviously you have to use the sa-sw from doninss there to wallcrawl past the seeker door. i couldn't get into the sw, very close though. the seeker door is apparently double-sided as well but there's that sw on the other side too. the rooms are very simple so the wallcrawl should not be a problem. so i didn't do it but i consider it confirmed.

the last sky temple key is past the super door in hall of eyes. using abandoned base sw i wallcrawled past it, all the way to dark landing site, and entered it erroneously to get the key. i didn't walk through the ingworm like skippy said, i just moved along the far wall away from the door and the room disappeared. no idea why but once it was gone i continued to wallcrawl all the way to dark hall of honored dead past the last seeker door. having picked up seekers to get those other two keys, i entered the sky temple.

so as far i'm concerned 14% is confirmed. you'd have to be crazy to want to do all these tricks in one go, or to speedrun it. maybe someday i'll go for it though ;p

emperor ing 2 is a lot more fearsome than i remembered. there's just gas everywhere so it's hard to see, you're constantly taking damage, and the black goo monsters harass you everywhere you go. but it seems easy enough to farm health and power bombs from them.
using spiderball i can confirm that there are several standable spots on the top of empy's shell, on the ends of the little web-looking thing. there's a tall invisible pillar sticking straight up out of the top so you can't move around at all up there. you may be able to get up using a 3bsj from the ground, or a single bsj balanced off one of the ridges at the bottom of the shell.

as for the tentacles themselves, they can be made to come out pretty easily by standing on the ground and pushing up against the shell and jumping repeatedly. by doing a 3bj off the ground and laying a power bomb at the top, then unmorphing and jumping against the shell to make the tentacles come out, i was able to kill 4 tentacles out of 11. it was late and i got tired so i quit trying, but i'm confident you could get at least 8 of the tentacles by doing this. for the ones that are really high i'm not sure what you would need to do. 3bj off one of the ridges, maybe. or get on top of the shell and make the tentacle come out somehow and drop a pb on the way down. 
the thing is, it doesn't seem TOTALLY hopeless to beat him without spider ball, but it would certainly be very difficult, especially with only 99 health... i'll keep experimenting later

edit; i killed seven tentacles.. i made an eighth come out a couple times but couldnt get to him with a pb
i wonder if MBI would hurt the tentacles, or stop you from taking damage from the gas
i also wonder about skipping light suit... seems only needed for two sky keys? in dungeon and dark torvus entrance? maybe you can wallcrawl below the dark waterline... i know you can wallcrawl to the one in dark sanctuary entrance

Master ZED

2008-09-22 09:41:16 am

Quote from LeCoureur103:

i wonder if MBI would hurt the tentacles, or stop you from taking damage from the gas
i also wonder about skipping light suit... seems only needed for two sky keys? in dungeon and dark torvus entrance? maybe you can wallcrawl below the dark waterline... i know you can wallcrawl to the one in dark sanctuary entrance

MBI won't hurt the tentacles, but of course it will protect you from the gas. There are very few things that break its protection, including terminal falls, DS2's Super Missile, and the same DS's shinespark. Basically, if invincibility (the multiplayer powerup) can stand up to it, so can MBI and vice versa save terminal falls... *unless* you can find out how to bring MBI out at will into unmorphed form like in my demo video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBfP3uawt64

If you could do that, I'm pretty sure terminal falls will lose their ability to do damage (on top of all the other neat things you could do by solving that problem), but I don't know how it will react to an elevator if you use one with MBI still active. Honestly, it was such a rare occurrence that I never got to test this instance. Hopefully you do find a non-random method of making this happen, and hopefully it will be a plausible one that can be used in many otherwise hectic areas such as the Annihilator skip rooms. That would make the rest of any such Dark Suit skip *much* easier and take us one step closer to a Light Suit skip.

Speaking of which, the latter isn't happening for now. There's no way to wallcrawl to the three keys that Light Suit is needed to penetrate the water for (Dark Oasis and the Dark Torvus ST keys), much less a method of leaving with them. IS also doesn't appear to work with the one in Dungeon, and it definitely won't work in Poisoned Bog, Dark Oasis, or the nearby rooms (it crashes the game). IS was pretty much our only viable hope for an LS skip. :\

[quote="LeCoureur103"]
i wonder if MBI would hurt the tentacles, or stop you from taking damage from the gas
i also wonder about skipping light suit... seems only needed for two sky keys? in dungeon and dark torvus entrance? maybe you can wallcrawl below the dark waterline... i know you can wallcrawl to the one in dark sanctuary entrance
[/quote]MBI won't hurt the tentacles, but of course it will protect you from the gas.  There are very few things that break its protection, including terminal falls, DS2's Super Missile, and the same DS's shinespark.  Basically, if invincibility (the multiplayer powerup) can stand up to it, so can MBI and vice versa save terminal falls... *unless* you can find out how to bring MBI out at will into unmorphed form like in my demo video:

[noembed]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBfP3uawt64[/noembed]

If you could do that, I'm pretty sure terminal falls will lose their ability to do damage (on top of all the other neat things you could do by solving that problem), but I don't know how it will react to an elevator if you use one with MBI still active.  Honestly, it was such a rare occurrence that I never got to test this instance.  Hopefully you do find a non-random method of making this happen, and hopefully it will be a plausible one that can be used in many otherwise hectic areas such as the Annihilator skip rooms.  That would make the rest of any such Dark Suit skip *much* easier and take us one step closer to a Light Suit skip.

Speaking of which, the latter isn't happening for now.  There's no way to wallcrawl to the three keys that Light Suit is needed to penetrate the water for (Dark Oasis and the Dark Torvus ST keys), much less a method of leaving with them.  IS also doesn't appear to work with the one in Dungeon, and it definitely won't work in Poisoned Bog, Dark Oasis, or the nearby rooms (it crashes the game).  IS was pretty much our only viable hope for an LS skip. :\

bushwacker

2008-09-22 12:42:21 pm

did you specifically try MBI at the empy fight? i just thought maybe it could hurt him in the same way that you make wasps randomly explode ha.
and i'm not sure what having MBI unmorphed would do for you. my idea for the anni skip was to stay constantly morphed and stick to the walls the whole way. i would find out a definite route before actually trying it with MBI.
and if you meant that it could help skip both dark suit and light suit at the SAME time, well i dunno about that....

re: light suit skip, imo it depends on what dark water looks like in secret world form. so obviously the top of the water is a solid wall but what about the sides and bottom? and if you can't get in, then i'm fairly sure you could make the room to load around you.
dark torvus entrance for sure; that room won't auto load, so you could do a forced load at the door and drop into the room's space before the room/aether disappear. getting out is questionable, but i thought maybe you could walk straight through the underwater ing worms like in dark landing site to make the room disappear; unless dark landing site does that for a different reason.
dungeon i wouldn't know about. does IS even work for ing keys normally anyway? even if the room doesn't crash?

and on a different topic i looked at the routes and if spider is skipped, making 14% with +gravboost would also work... i think +early pb would be the easiest though. and that would make 13% w/o dark suit more possible anyway

did you specifically try MBI at the empy fight? i just thought maybe it could hurt him in the same way that you make wasps randomly explode ha.
and i'm not sure what having MBI unmorphed would do for you. my idea for the anni skip was to stay constantly morphed and stick to the walls the whole way. i would find out a definite route before actually trying it with MBI.
and if you meant that it could help skip both dark suit and light suit at the SAME time, well i dunno about that....

re: light suit skip, imo it depends on what dark water looks like in secret world form. so obviously the top of the water is a solid wall but what about the sides and bottom? and if you can't get in, then i'm fairly sure you could make the room to load around you. 
dark torvus entrance for sure; that room won't auto load, so you could do a forced load at the door and drop into the room's space before the room/aether disappear. getting out is questionable, but i thought maybe you could walk straight through the underwater ing worms like in dark landing site to make the room disappear; unless dark landing site does that for a different reason.
dungeon i wouldn't know about. does IS even work for ing keys normally anyway? even if the room doesn't crash?

and on a different topic i looked at the routes and if spider is skipped, making 14% with +gravboost would also work... i think +early pb would be the easiest though. and that would make 13% w/o dark suit more possible anyway

Master ZED

2008-09-22 01:35:40 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

did you specifically try MBI at the empy fight?

Yep.

Quote from LeCoureur103:

i just thought maybe it could hurt him in the same way that you make wasps randomly explode ha.

Depends on the room. Usually a cannon has to be present, but of course there are exceptions.

Quote from LeCoureur103:

and i'm not sure what having MBI unmorphed would do for you. my idea for the anni skip was to stay constantly morphed and stick to the walls the whole way.

Speeding up that process would be one use, again, provided you could eliminate the random factor and summon the standing version at will. Perhaps, in at least a few years from now, a TAS author will figure it out.

Quote from LeCoureur103:

and if you meant that it could help skip both dark suit and light suit at the SAME time, well i dunno about that....

It could (again, if the standing version could be summoned at will etc. etc.), but there's still the dark water problem to contend with even if we fill in that major hole.

Quote from LeCoureur103:

re: light suit skip, imo it depends on what dark water looks like in secret world form. so obviously the top of the water is a solid wall but what about the sides and bottom? and if you can't get in, then i'm fairly sure you could make the room to load around you.
dark torvus entrance for sure; that room won't auto load, so you could do a forced load at the door and drop into the room's space before the room/aether disappear. getting out is questionable, but i thought maybe you could walk straight through the underwater ing worms like in dark landing site to make the room disappear; unless dark landing site does that for a different reason.
dungeon i wouldn't know about. does IS even work for ing keys normally anyway? even if the room doesn't crash?

1. The sides and bottom have no such barrier, but...

2. That won't matter if you can't get out, and at the moment, that isn't possible. Ruined Shrine can be escaped because of how the loading triggers work in Shrine Access; they don't do that just anywhere. For Poisoned Bog, I don't believe the bottom of the room extends far enough to trip Ruined Alcove's trigger for Dark Forgotten Bridge, but even if it did, that would leave you stranded below the standard, forcing you to resecretize Poisoned Bog for a frantic ether climb. Dark Oasis and Dungeon definitely have no chance of using this kind of tactic.

3. Keys aren't any different than any other pickup, so whether IS works on them or not is something you have to ask the game about. I know about the underwater keys because I've tried all three multiple times, and the one at Hive Entrance was attempted without success; the rest don't really matter. However, I will say that Dungeon is weird, so you may still have something of a chance there. I've once gone through the portal while it was inactive, and more than once have I activated some kind of mega crush ability where everything in the room that could be destroyed was obliterated by IS. The kinetic aura doesn't work there, and the Boost Ball shield is overridden by said aura whether it works or not, so I don't know how that one works at all. I also can't tell you if that includes the Flying Ing Cache since it was dead whenever that happened.

[quote="LeCoureur103"]
did you specifically try MBI at the empy fight?[/quote]Yep.
[quote="LeCoureur103"]i just thought maybe it could hurt him in the same way that you make wasps randomly explode ha.[/quote]Depends on the room.  Usually a cannon has to be present, but of course there are exceptions.
[quote="LeCoureur103"]and i'm not sure what having MBI unmorphed would do for you. my idea for the anni skip was to stay constantly morphed and stick to the walls the whole way.[/quote]Speeding up that process would be one use, again, provided you could eliminate the random factor and summon the standing version at will.  Perhaps, in at least a few years from now, a TAS author will figure it out.
[quote="LeCoureur103"]and if you meant that it could help skip both dark suit and light suit at the SAME time, well i dunno about that....[/quote]It [b]could[/b] (again, if the standing version could be summoned at will etc. etc.), but there's still the dark water problem to contend with even if we fill in that major hole.

[quote="LeCoureur103"]re: light suit skip, imo it depends on what dark water looks like in secret world form. so obviously the top of the water is a solid wall but what about the sides and bottom? and if you can't get in, then i'm fairly sure you could make the room to load around you. 
dark torvus entrance for sure; that room won't auto load, so you could do a forced load at the door and drop into the room's space before the room/aether disappear. getting out is questionable, but i thought maybe you could walk straight through the underwater ing worms like in dark landing site to make the room disappear; unless dark landing site does that for a different reason.
dungeon i wouldn't know about. does IS even work for ing keys normally anyway? even if the room doesn't crash?[/quote]1. The sides and bottom have no such barrier, but...

2. That won't matter if you can't get out, and at the moment, that isn't possible.  Ruined Shrine can be escaped because of how the loading triggers work in Shrine Access; they don't do that just anywhere.  For Poisoned Bog, I don't believe the bottom of the room extends far enough to trip Ruined Alcove's trigger for Dark Forgotten Bridge, but even if it did, that would leave you stranded below the standard, forcing you to resecretize Poisoned Bog for a frantic ether climb.  Dark Oasis and Dungeon definitely have no chance of using this kind of tactic.

3. Keys aren't any different than any other pickup, so whether IS works on them or not is something you have to ask the game about.  I know about the underwater keys because I've tried all three multiple times, and the one at Hive Entrance was attempted without success; the rest don't really matter.  However, I will say that Dungeon is weird, so you may still have something of a chance there.  I've once gone through the portal while it was inactive, and more than once have I activated some kind of mega crush ability where everything in the room that could be destroyed was obliterated by IS.  The kinetic aura doesn't work there, and the Boost Ball shield is overridden by said aura whether it works or not, so I don't know how that one works at all.  I also can't tell you if that includes the Flying Ing Cache since it was dead whenever that happened.

bushwacker

2008-09-28 05:23:54 pm

in dark torvus entrance i was able to ceiling warp into the underwater area (had light suit so maybe that helped) but i couldn't find a way out of the underwater area or unload the room. so yeah i guess light suit skip is probably impossible.

but when i was wallcrawling around dark torvus i made a couple new sequence breaks.
first you can pick up the beam ammo expansion from behind the seeker door, as it is one-sided. pretty useless though.
second you can get the power bomb expansion in the room between dark torvus entrance and dark forgotten bridge without power bombs. it's an easy wallcrawl from dark forgotten bridge to that room and then you ceiling warp into the very small alcove with the pb; use the pb to then escape from behind the wall. very much like temple assembly site. no idea which one would be faster to get in a speedrun though

bushwacker

2008-10-01 01:59:42 pm

ok so a crazy idea to make 13%, by skipping the translator in agon. after you get bombs in agon temple the door locks until you get the translator. there's no sw's accessible from there to go around the locked door. but there ARE purple and white doors.

the plan: wallcrawl from mining plaza A (wormhole) to go get dark beam. you would do this without benefit of space jump or bombs, but i think by using the aether a lot you could avoid getting stuck. you would basically need to go all the way to the dark samus fight as there are some very impassable bomb obstacles in some of the rooms...
but after getting dark beam, go back to mining plaza A and use the wormhole to now wallcrawl to agon temple. past the purple door, at the bottom of a long morph ball tunnel, there is a seeker door. so my hope is that it is only seeker on one side, and you can disable it from the other side. the whole plan hinges on this, basically.

after disabling it, go back to agon temple for the bombs finally. you may be able to disable the seeker door from inside the sw with some careful room-dumping and whatnot but i've never tried that before. if NOT, you need to re-enter the room to disable it and that would mean you couldn't get back up the morph ball tunnel without bombs. but fortunately you could just go on to mining plaza B, where there's another wormhole, and wallcrawl back up to agon temple, or to mining plaza A where you could then go back to agon temple from the front.

so once back to agon temple, fight the worm to finally get bombs. now that you have dark beam, you can leave that way with the normal door still locked; and at the bottom of the morphball tunnel the seeker door is gone too. so you can use mining plaza B's wormhole again to get back to mining plaza A safely and now you're past the locked door, without getting the translator.

long and crazy i know but it seems possible enough... the seeker door would need to be one-sided however or none of this would work so i'll look into that. and if there are any other doors that translator opens, well, they may not be possible to get around either. so it's very hypothetical at this point

ok so a crazy idea to make 13%, by skipping the translator in agon. after you get bombs in agon temple the door locks until you get the translator. there's no sw's accessible from there to go around the locked door. but there ARE purple and white doors.

the plan: wallcrawl from mining plaza A (wormhole) to go get dark beam. you would do this without benefit of space jump or bombs, but i think by using the aether a lot you could avoid getting stuck. you would basically need to go all the way to the dark samus fight as there are some very impassable bomb obstacles in some of the rooms...
but after getting dark beam, go back to mining plaza A and use the wormhole to now wallcrawl to agon temple. past the purple door, at the bottom of a long morph ball tunnel, there is a seeker door. so my hope is that it is only seeker on one side, and you can disable it from the other side. the whole plan hinges on this, basically.

after disabling it, go back to agon temple for the bombs finally. you may be able to disable the seeker door from inside the sw with some careful room-dumping and whatnot but i've never tried that before. if NOT, you need to re-enter the room to disable it and that would mean you couldn't get back up the morph ball tunnel without bombs. but fortunately you could just go on to mining plaza B, where there's another wormhole, and wallcrawl back up to agon temple, or to mining plaza A where you could then go back to agon temple from the front.

so once back to agon temple, fight the worm to finally get bombs. now that you have dark beam, you can leave that way with the normal door still locked; and at the bottom of the morphball tunnel the seeker door is gone too. so you can use mining plaza B's wormhole again to get back to mining plaza A safely and now you're past the locked door, without getting the translator.

long and crazy i know but it seems possible enough... the seeker door would need to be one-sided however or none of this would work so i'll look into that. and if there are any other doors that translator opens, well, they may not be possible to get around either. so it's very hypothetical at this point

SkippyJr

2008-10-01 04:06:53 pm

Mining Plaza B's door is purple on both sides.

A morph SW in any number of places would also work.

kip found that there was a specific event which got rid of the Emerald Translator. You could go there and it was as if you had already picked it up. The same might hold true for Amber. Unfortunately, even if you work your way from a wormhole SW to such a trigger (possibly the first portal or the fight there), you'd be blocked behind a gate and with no bombs.

bushwacker

2008-10-01 04:50:06 pm

purple on both sides awesome..... so scratch that plan

unfortunately morph sw's are beyond me. couldn't even get into the hydrodynamo save one, so no idea how i'd expect to find a new one. but all you'd have to work with are the door between the rotating room and agon temple, and between the rotating room and the energy transfer. (the dark beam door too, if you could make that crazy wallcrawl to get dark beam early; getting light beam is not possible though).

as to making the translator trigger happen, i knew about the emerald one because it happened to me on my pseudo 14% testrun. so maybe there is one for violet too. but even if you hit it, the lock on the agon temple itself may just appear immediately after getting bombs, regardless of anything else you've done. but we would have to even FIND such a trigger in the first place, and there's no guarantee it even exists..

Master ZED

2008-10-01 09:07:42 pm

Quote from LeCoureur103:

couldn't even get into the hydrodynamo save one, so no idea how i'd expect to find a new one.

Save Station 2/B and Main/Hive Gyro Chamber are the hardest in the game (the former I only got to work one time after they were discovered, which is why doninss beat me to them), so don't beat yourself over those. Dynamo Access and Hive Dynamo Access are the easiest and the first discovered, and probably where you should start if you want to understand and try finding new morph SW's.

bushwacker

2008-10-02 12:52:37 am

i can confirm the door to mining plaza b is purple on both sides, i was able to wallcrawl there from main reactor... man that's frustrating. only reason for it to be two sided is if the programmers didn't know which way rooms would be connected when they made them but they should've taken it away when they knew :x

but when i re-entered the map at mining plaza b the worms didn't seem to be there anyway, making a sw impossible... is there another state for the room that gets loaded at some point?