ILS Any% Segmented Run (5/12 segments done)

2012-04-15 05:42:17 pm

Wow... thank you nate. I forgot I actually registered 7 years ago >_>
So Fox128=Fox128 after all. O_o

2012-11-17 02:17:55 pm

Is this forgotten about?? I know MP1 has been getting a lot of attention lately and it's all amazing but I remembered of a run once followed on the daily to see the next segment. Oh yeah. That was this run

sabata2

2012-11-17 02:40:25 pm

ANKOKU

It's on Hiatus.

The ILS broke the hour barrier on the first try (if I'm remembering right) with minimal retries.

MP1 however requires a lot more effort to break that barrier. So that's where all the energy is directed. He'll come back to this when he finishes his MP1 sub hour.

Met_A_Ridley

2012-11-17 03:03:31 pm

Quote from sabata2:

It's on Hiatus.

The ILS broke the hour barrier on the first try (if I'm remembering right) with minimal retries.

MP1 however requires a lot more effort to break that barrier. So that's where all the energy is directed. He'll come back to this when he finishes his MP1 sub hour.

But he just did? Seems like he wants to get :57 now...

sabata2

2012-11-17 03:07:37 pm

ANKOKU

He broke the hour barrier essentially "by accident" and not "at his best".

He's shown that his route can break an hour, now he wants to get the record as low as possible.
Once he's satisfied that "My route can't get any better" or "I'm not going through the trouble of making this run better" he'll return to either this, or trying for SS MP1 runs since he'll have the route fresh in his mind.

Met_A_Ridley

2012-11-17 07:50:31 pm

I see. Guess we'll have to wait and see then.
Meanwhile, are there any good tutorials for the new MP1 tricks?
It's a pity no one is updating the main site anymore, and the Metroid Database mostly cover newbie stuff.
Again, we should have Miles on a paycheck, so we could request tutorials from him and to do various sorts of runs. :)
Like, I suggested that a run should be tried where, in MP2, you first collect all the upgrades, and then go back to the beginning and fight all the subguardians and guardians. Except for DS, because you need to fight him to get the Echo visor, for one thing...
Anyway, right now I'm looking for some good info on how you can succeed doing all the new stuff.
It's a pity there's not as many SW in MP1 as in MP2, because I'd like to find a way over those bars in GTH to get to PM. I can just not perform that BJ that's needed to get over, which means that when I've run through the game, I still get the Gravity Suit and go through the Crashed Frigate... =/

Pawbdr

2012-11-17 09:55:18 pm

There's plenty of SW's in MP1

Met_A_Ridley

2012-11-18 07:21:53 pm

OK, maybe there are. I never saw many videos of them. And because it seems that they haven't been of importance for SB'ing. But are there any differences between the SW's in MP1 vs MP2?
I'm currently trying to learn how to get IBBF, but it's quite a pain, because many falls are terminal and the graphics are very much like a cube all the time. Nothing to stand on in aether. A lot of void, that is. That's the feeling I get, anyway.
Also I had the weirdest bug a moment ago, before I quit. The door to Energy Core from the corridor before it wasn't there. It was just a hole... And even if the GH room was invisible, I could still stand in the usual places there. I tried to unload the rooms before Energy Core Access, but no difference.

Nisco

2012-11-19 01:52:16 am

when you are in sws, make sure that the map screen has transitioned into the correct room each time you pass a door. If you are in a room without transitioning the map, sometimes the far doors will not have loaded yet.

Fox128

2012-11-19 02:32:55 am

Current routes in MP1 just use the SW to get IBBF.
There is also the idea around to use an SW to get to Wave faster in a TAS. There is a vid of that.
If you want to see SWs used to a higher extent you should watch the 21% demonstration run!

And you asked about differences... I don't know too much about them in the two games but afaik they're easier to maneuver in in MP2. And I think you can't lock on to things through the walls in MP1 so you can't dash jump oob, or just trigger cutscenes by scanning stuff etc. there... But there are people here that can explain this kind of stuff much better.

Met_A_Ridley

2012-11-19 01:08:10 pm

Quote from Nisco:

when you are in sws, make sure that the map screen has transitioned into the correct room each time you pass a door. If you are in a room without transitioning the map, sometimes the far doors will not have loaded yet.

OK, thanks. I should have suspected this. But how can I make sure the map is transitioned?
For me, it was like, once the ECA was loaded, there was no changing in the door missing. I don't remember though if I tried to unload the room and load it again.
I know from the tutorial video, in that particular room it says "accidentally transitioned back to the other room", but I never knew what was going on and what he did to correct it.

Fox128:
I know. Because I never saw any SW besides that, other than the first SW video in Overgrown Cavern, Tallon Overworld. I didn't think, along with others at that time, that the SWs mattered.
Also, I didn't see anyone go for IBBF, really.
Guess I need to see that video then.
There are a number of things I'd like to bypass with SW in MP1. Such as getting past that obnoxious gate in GTH, like I said before. I guess most people know how to BJ over the bars already so they don't bother with SW there, but it'd be nice to see the alternate route, if there is one (there is an SW in GTC, however the way to get up there seems a little tricky).

Hmm, I dislike TAS. The only good thing about it is to look for possibilities. But IMO all TAS runs are void to me. You can do so many things in a TAS that you may as well use AR or whatever. But if you can, after some practice with TAS, perform the stuff on a console, then it's OK.

I figured as much, based on what I've seen, about the differences. It seems there are a lot more things to stand on in MP2 and the aether isn't as rigid as in MP1. Obviously that's because of better graphics and maybe a more stable game in general. However, MP2 is so breakable it's funny. :) It's like, bye-bye map and let's go OoB again. Whistle

But I know it's still kind of an art in itself to be able to fully and comfortably maneuver OoB.
That's right, you can't lock on to anything in MP1 while OoB. But there are some inconsistencies I guess. In general that's another benefit in MP2, because you can use cut scenes to get back in the map (ILS) and you can get that floaty jump.
Seeing there are a gazillion cut scenes in MP2, it's good they are good for something! cookie

I wish I would've continued practicing SW'ing in MP1 so I was more familiar and comfortable with it. I quit when I barely could get out from Gathering Hall, years and years ago. And on top of that, I thought there was no use in going OoB.
But seeing how Miles goes the IBBF route and how he uses SW in MP2, I was kind of thrilled to really try it myself. First learning how to get IBBF and then moving over to MP2 (as it's IMO a lot harder as a game). But SW in Dark Aether I think I'll skip. I don't have the nerves for that!

[quote="Nisco"]when you are in sws, make sure that the map screen has transitioned into the correct room each time you pass a door. If you are in a room without transitioning the map, sometimes the far doors will not have loaded yet.[/quote]
OK, thanks. I should have suspected this. But how can I make sure the map is transitioned?
For me, it was like, once the ECA was loaded, there was no changing in the door missing. I don't remember though if I tried to unload the room and load it again.
I know from the tutorial video, in that particular room it says "accidentally transitioned back to the other room", but I never knew what was going on and what he did to correct it.

Fox128:
I know. Because I never saw any SW besides that, other than the first SW video in Overgrown Cavern, Tallon Overworld. I didn't think, along with others at that time, that the SWs mattered.
Also, I didn't see anyone go for IBBF, really.
Guess I need to see that video then.
There are a number of things I'd like to bypass with SW in MP1. Such as getting past that obnoxious gate in GTH, like I said before. I guess most people know how to BJ over the bars already so they don't bother with SW there, but it'd be nice to see the alternate route, if there is one (there is an SW in GTC, however the way to get up  there seems a little tricky).

Hmm, I dislike TAS. The only good thing about it is to look for possibilities. But IMO all TAS runs are void to me. You can do so many things in a TAS that you may as well use AR or whatever. But if you can, after some practice with TAS, perform the stuff on a console, then it's OK.

I figured as much, based on what I've seen, about the differences. It seems there are a lot more things to stand on in MP2 and the aether isn't as rigid as in MP1. Obviously that's because of better graphics and maybe a more stable game in general. However, MP2 is so breakable it's funny. :) It's like, bye-bye map and let's go OoB again. :lalala_orig: But I know it's still kind of an art in itself to be able to fully and comfortably maneuver OoB.
That's right, you can't lock on to anything in MP1 while OoB. But there are some inconsistencies I guess. In general that's another benefit in MP2, because you can use cut scenes to get back in the map (ILS) and you can get that floaty jump.
Seeing there are a gazillion cut scenes in MP2, it's good they are good for something! :cookie:

I wish I would've continued practicing SW'ing in MP1 so I was more familiar and comfortable with it. I quit when I barely could get out from Gathering Hall, years and years ago. And on top of that, I thought there was no use in going OoB.
But seeing how Miles goes the IBBF route and how he uses SW in MP2, I was kind of thrilled to really try it myself. First learning how to get IBBF and then moving over to MP2 (as it's IMO a lot harder as a game). But SW in Dark Aether I think I'll skip. I don't have the nerves for that!

rekameohs

2012-11-19 02:29:41 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

The reason the physics in secret worlds are different in Echoes and Prime has to do with the game's movement physics. In Prime, momentum is locked once you're in the air in your first jump, probably since that's more realistic. You might notice that you can only adjust with the space jump. You can adjust in each direction just veerrry slightly, but for the most part, your momentum is locked. This is the reason why dash jumps are so effective in Prime. You do a strafe dash, which shoots you very fast along the ground, and then jump which locks your momentum and flies you through the air at the same speed as the strafe dash.

In Echoes, the air movement physics physics are different. You have full mobility in the air. This was likely done to combat the dash jumps, since they're not nearly as effective as in Prime. However, this means that wallcrawling is much easier, since with full movement in the air, you're able to get back in and out of the aether when aether jumping rather easily.

Met_A_Ridley

2012-11-19 03:46:37 pm

LoL. Looks like Nintendo wanted to get rid of the ability to dash jump, but couldn't have it two ways. Because they made her agile in another way... It kinda sucks that Nintendo aim to eliminate sequence breaking, when, at least for me, that's been the real spice to the games ever since 1987, when, as I see it, I used SB to get Varia right after Ice Beam/Bombs. Being able to SB doesn't just "break" the game, but it breaks the linear game play. And that is what has made the Metroid franchise so great, apart from awesome graphics, amazing story, etc, etc.
Talking about agility, I loved the NES version because then she was truly agile. She felt like a really heavy robot the first time I played MP. However, the graphics and the environment...! wub

And with Echoes, the music is just stunning. Except the Dark Sanctuary music which is too repetitive.
Anyway, where was I...
I think another thing that makes exploring SW's in MP2 is the fact that the graphics are better. I mean, it's quite clear there is more to stand on and it's more flexible in general.
However, I can feel just by moving around it is all different. How Samus moves, that is. Ghetto jumping is different, even. But that's a nuisance I guess, compared to the dash moves. I never was a pro at those anyway. So I've never tried them in MP2. But there are certain types of jumps in MP1 that I never mastered as well.
For example the L-lock spring SJ when you add turning, to get extra far. I've managed to jump to the save station in Main Quarry a few times. But I can't get out of Life Grove.
Also bomb jumping seems to work differently between the games.

LoL. Looks like Nintendo wanted to get rid of the ability to dash jump, but couldn't have it two ways. Because they made her agile in another way... It kinda sucks that Nintendo aim to eliminate sequence breaking, when, at least for me, that's been the real spice to the games ever since 1987, when, as I see it, I used SB to get Varia right after Ice Beam/Bombs. Being able to SB doesn't just "break" the game, but it breaks the linear game play. And that is what has made the Metroid franchise so great, apart from awesome graphics, amazing story, etc, etc.
Talking about agility, I loved the NES version because then she was truly agile. She felt like a really heavy robot the first time I played MP. However, the graphics and the environment...!:wub:
And with Echoes, the music is just stunning. Except the Dark Sanctuary music which is too repetitive.
Anyway, where was I...
I think another thing that makes exploring SW's in MP2 is the fact that the graphics are better. I mean, it's quite clear there is more to stand on and it's more flexible in general.
However, I can feel just by moving around it is all different. How Samus moves, that is. Ghetto jumping is different, even. But that's a nuisance I guess, compared to the dash moves. I never was a pro at those anyway. So I've never tried them in MP2. But there are certain types of jumps in MP1 that I never mastered as well.
For example the L-lock spring SJ when you add turning, to get extra far. I've managed to jump to the save station in Main Quarry a few times. But I can't get out of Life Grove.
Also bomb jumping seems to work differently between the games.

Met_A_Ridley

2013-05-01 12:04:48 am

So... What about TEH URN? Why no new segments for this run? Is Miles still on a :53 MP1 run?
It'd be cool to see a sub :50 MP1 run. winky

However, an ILS MP2 run could be really something, time-wise. Especially for me, who write about it in almost every post here, LoL. Though, I really think ILS is the sh!t. Even more so since ILS in MP1 is impossible. Having to settle for SJF is dull compared to this. :) Plus, I've seen so many MP1 runs already. Not much more to improve there, except for minuscule changes to get through rooms quicker. And another thing which still disappoints me with the sub hour runs of MP1 is that the version used is the first NTSC one which is so much more easier and allows for scan dashing. I doubt you could get under an hour in a PAL version, even in a TAS URN.

kirbymastah

2013-05-05 10:59:23 pm

This run is on hiatus. Miles will work on it when he feels like working on it.

Met_A_Ridley

2013-05-06 02:45:37 am

So what's he up to right now? Seems he's streaming MP2 on twitch tv? Any% race yesterday, anyway.
I'd love to see a development of the 6% run.
Anyway, it's not like I know Miles personally so I dunno what he's up to, but people have lives too, I'd like to believe. Though, and I've said it before, with Miles's talent for at least the MP games, he could be on a payroll.
One other guy I admire is Cosmo, who's persistently speedrunning Wind waker. A 4,5 hrs game. Pretty impressive to do it all in one segment too. But IMHO Miles seems to be a bit sharper in his talents, since MP2 is a much faster game. And so is MP1 of course.
Are there any others who are figuring out new stuff in the MP series? How about MP3? I haven't even played that game yet... Embarassed

But it seems totally different from the first two games, mainly because it's on another console, of course. Anyway, I'm rambling as usual.

kirbymastah

2013-05-06 09:17:07 am

Um, he was doing the weekly any% race of mp2. He's been focusing on mp1 lately (on and off). There isn't any need to compare speedrunners since TWW and MP1/2 are very very different; I'm not sure what you mean by "MP2 is a much faster game."

New things are found to this day in MP1/2, and even MP3 got a minor new trick found by itspersonnaltoo. It's never safe to assume that everything has been found in a game; metroid fusion has been getting tons of routing research as well, and it's freaking FUSION.

Pawbdr

2013-05-06 12:55:31 pm

TWW and MP are completely 100% different and in no way comparable. Cosmo is the "miles" of TWW and OoT try picking up either one and consistently pulling off the tricks they do. IMO OoT and WW are way harder to speedrun and glitch consistently. But maybe that's because I've gotten into MP more

Met_A_Ridley

2013-05-07 02:50:20 am

Yeah I saw that, kirby. I watched teh urn yesterday. But it wasn't a very good attempt and he did some funny errors such as that OoB thing in Meeting Grounds, when he just could've scanned the translator door (right?). So he didn't get a very good time in the end. It was obvious he was tired and not so focused.
I know TWW and MP are totally different games and trust me I also know it's super hard to get all the glitches to work in TWW and sitting for 4.5 hours straight as well doing it. Although the first 50 minutes is "easy" and it's the second half of the game that causes the most problems and can ruin the run totally if messed up.
What I meant by MP being faster is that it's more about keeping on the move all the time. And it's a shorter game so it's more intense in that sense. Of course, TWW isn't slow either and involves a lot of super advanced stuff, like superswim and getting storage preferably at the first time you do it as well as the helmaroc skip. Heck, I myself even have problems leaf pumping...
Though I did manage to do some speed tricks last time I played and I managed almost to superswim to greatfish after getting the windwaker. I got as far as tingle island, but called it a day before I did it... So yeah, I know it's hard. But there's at least one other guy who is almost as skilled as Cosmo. A Swedish guy.
Anyway, we're off topic here and are splitting hairs.
I just wanted to bring Cosmo up, since I think he's awesome and I've seen all his WR attempts the last 6 months or so. The 4.36.55 one I watched live as well, for the whole day. He got that the 4th time he tried. Meaning he was playing for like 6-7 hrs straight that day. It's also cool that he has a lot of fans and he got loads of donations that day. Several hundred dollars from generous ppl.

So where do you guys talk about new discoveries? It's not that much of activity on this forum any way. Esp since the find about the sandigger was first uploaded to YT. So I'm guessing it's a lot of trial and error individually.
Anyway, I just wanna learn the basics myself and I wish I knew someone I could meet to teach me.

Yeah I saw that, kirby. I watched teh urn yesterday. But it wasn't a very good attempt and he did some funny errors such as that OoB thing in Meeting Grounds, when he just could've scanned the translator door (right?). So he didn't get a very good time in the end. It was obvious he was tired and not so focused.
I [i]know[/i] TWW and MP are totally different games and trust me I also know it's super hard to get all the glitches to work in TWW and sitting for 4.5 hours straight as well doing it. Although the first 50 minutes is "easy" and it's the second half of the game that causes the most problems and can ruin the run totally if messed up.
What I meant by MP being faster is that it's more about keeping on the move all the time. And it's a shorter game so it's more intense in that sense. Of course, TWW isn't slow either and involves a lot of super advanced stuff, like superswim and getting storage preferably at the first time you do it as well as the helmaroc skip. Heck, I myself even have problems leaf pumping...
Though I did manage to do some speed tricks last time I played and I managed almost to superswim to greatfish after getting the windwaker. I got as far as tingle island, but called it a day before I did it... So yeah, I know it's hard. But there's at least one other guy who is almost as skilled as Cosmo. A Swedish guy.
Anyway, we're off topic here and are splitting hairs.
I just wanted to bring Cosmo up, since I think he's awesome and I've seen all his WR attempts the last 6 months or so. The 4.36.55 one I watched live as well, for the whole day. He got that the 4th time he tried. Meaning he was playing for like 6-7 hrs straight that day. It's also cool that he has a lot of fans and he got loads of donations that day. Several hundred dollars from generous ppl.

So where do you guys talk about new discoveries? It's not that much of activity on this forum any way. Esp since the find about the sandigger was first uploaded to YT. So I'm guessing it's a lot of trial and error individually.
Anyway, I just wanna learn the basics myself and I wish I knew someone I could meet to teach me.

MilesSMB

2013-05-07 07:50:52 am

Quote from Met_A_Ridley:

he did some funny errors such as that OoB thing in Meeting Grounds, when he just could've scanned the translator door (right?).

No. While it looks like an Amber gate, it's actually a Violet gate, which I don't have yet.

People need to stop bumping these topics, it makes me feel bad.

MrSpEeDrUn

Edit history:

MrSpEeDrUn: 2013-05-07 10:34:45 pm

MrSpEeDrUn: 2013-05-07 10:32:02 pm

2013-05-07 10:29:54 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

mp2's tricks are mostly harder then tww's tricks.

and a segmented sub hour run on PAL is defenitly possible, even though it would be terribly hard.

also miles segmented runs are incredibly good and i think ive never seen anything as skillfully played as his segmented runs. (well except TAS speedruns)

sabata2

2013-05-07 11:16:42 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from MilesSMB:

People need to stop bumping these topics, it makes me feel bad.

The mounting shame will get you to come back.

We control you Miles.

kirbymastah

2013-05-07 11:24:30 pm

Errr i'm not sure if you can say mp2's tricks are "mostly harder" than tww's tricks, especially since you can lose a run in TWW to stupid stuff over 3 hours in (which mp2 isn't even that long). It's kinda stupid to compare completely different games and their tricks honestly.

Met_A_Ridley

Edit history:

Met_A_Ridley: 2013-05-08 03:28:06 am

2013-05-08 03:24:19 am

Quote from MilesSMB:

Quote from Met_A_Ridley:

he did some funny errors such as that OoB thing in Meeting Grounds, when he just could've scanned the translator door (right?).

No. While it looks like an Amber gate, it's actually a Violet gate, which I don't have yet.

People need to stop bumping these topics, it makes me feel bad.

OK. So it's kind of a graphics error in that sense? I always thought that was an Amber gate.
Any how, you did seem a bit tired and out of focus a few times. ;)
We're not gonna give you any rest though. LoL. aiwebs_017

Quote from MrSpEeDrUn:

mp2's tricks are mostly harder then tww's tricks.

and a segmented sub hour run on PAL is defenitly possible, even though it would be terribly hard.

also miles segmented runs are incredibly good and i think ive never seen anything as skillfully played as his segmented runs. (well except TAS speedruns)

That's kind of what I've meant to say all the time. The tricks themselves are way harder to perform for both MP1 and MP2. It's more about randmoness and luck in TWW, especially about superswimming. To let go of the joystick at the right oscillating frame for speed. And many a run are ruined by messed up superswims. Of course, the tricks in ToG, and the two temples as well as the first phase of the Ganon fight are tricky to do as well.

Quote from kirbymastah:

Errr i'm not sure if you can say mp2's tricks are "mostly harder" than tww's tricks, especially since you can lose a run in TWW to stupid stuff over 3 hours in (which mp2 isn't even that long). It's kinda stupid to compare completely different games and their tricks honestly.

Why is it stupid to compare games? We've already acknowledged that the main difference in this case is TWW is harder because it's a 4.5 hrs sitting while the MP games are half or a third that time. That's the main difference, in terms of difficulty.
But finding things out for MP is a lot more technical since the games are programmed so differently. While the stuff they do in TWW are mostly about the storage glitch. So it kinda evolves around the same thing. After that, it's more about stamina and precision. Between this, you actually get some "resting time", since it's not 100% intense at all times and you don't have to be so accurate for every single movement.
I have honestly not understood why they won't do segmented runs for TWW, since it's so long. I mean, how many have the stamina to play a video game for 4.5 hours, or even the time? No wonder there are more ppl speedrunning the quicker games.

Also, if you look at how many speed tricks there are in MP1, MP2 and TWW, the difference is obvious. You can mess around with the first two a heck of a lot more than in TWW.
I'm just wondering about TWW if they're gonna find something new out soon so they can go at least sub 4.5 hrs or even sub 3 hours. Not much happening there, really. At least you can't argue with me about that, as opposed to e.g. ILS for MP1 ever happening.
Remember that it was the Metroid games that started the speedrunning concept and all. Speedrunning the Zelda games are more about just raw skills.
Such as it is kicking butt in "Kung Fu", one of the absolute hardest NES games ever.
Anyway, and perhaps most importantly, I don't think there's so much difference between hard core gamers themselves, since if you have a feel for one or a few games, it's more likely that you can learn and adapt to completely different games with a bit of practice and interest.
In the general population, a person can be good at a handful of games, but may have difficulty becoming a pro at either of them or a game which is very different from their favorite games.
Most aren't HC gamers, they do it for R&R and for fun. That's why quite a few frown upon sequence breaking and the stuff in MP2 especially, because they simply don't understand breaking the games and they think we who do are "missing the point" of the game.
Personally, I don't see SB-ing in MP2 is that much different from Super Metroid, just because it looks different. The games are built up around 2D and 3D and there's a decade between them, so of course it looks different. But to myself, it's the same concept. You push the game to its boundaries to break it as much as you can. And there are SB things in SM that should be very strange to many ppl as it's so "unnatural" and not intended by the creators. It's all about glitches. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to break any sequence. Of course, in some games it just may take extra skills to sequence break. But that's in a minority.
Since MP2 is so much more advanced, it may look totally unorthodox to many about e.g. MBI, as opposed to simple skips or early items in older games with less programming and less advance graphical environments and coding.
The only thing I can understand some ppl complaining about is TAS. But even then I think they don't really understand what it's all about. One good example of a TAS that is definitely impossible by any living man to copy by playing normally, is the Gradius TAS run, which is to me just art and a showcase of possibilities. It's self-explanatory that it's not "natural gaming".
Sorry for my lengthy post. teach

[quote="MilesSMB"][quote="Met_A_Ridley"]he did some funny errors such as that OoB thing in Meeting Grounds, when he just could've scanned the translator door (right?).[/quote]
No. While it looks like an Amber gate, it's actually a Violet gate, which I don't have yet.

People need to stop bumping these topics, it makes me feel bad.[/quote]
OK. So it's kind of a graphics error in that sense? I always thought that was an Amber gate.
Any how, you did seem a bit tired and out of focus a few times. ;)
We're not gonna give you any rest though. LoL. [aiwebs_017]
[quote="MrSpEeDrUn"]mp2's tricks are mostly harder then tww's tricks.

and a segmented sub hour run on PAL is defenitly possible, even though it would be terribly hard.

also miles segmented runs are incredibly good and i think ive never seen anything as skillfully played as his segmented runs. (well except TAS speedruns)[/quote]
That's kind of what I've meant to say all the time. The tricks themselves are way harder to perform for both MP1 and MP2. It's more about randmoness and luck in TWW, especially about superswimming. To let go of the joystick at the right oscillating frame for speed. And many a run are ruined by messed up superswims. Of course, the tricks in ToG, and the two temples as well as the first phase of the Ganon fight are tricky to do as well.
[quote="kirbymastah"]Errr i'm not sure if you can say mp2's tricks are "mostly harder" than tww's tricks, especially since you can lose a run in TWW to stupid stuff over 3 hours in (which mp2 isn't even that long). It's kinda stupid to compare completely different games and their tricks honestly.[/quote]
Why is it stupid to compare games? We've already acknowledged that the main difference in this case is TWW is harder because it's a 4.5 hrs sitting while the MP games are half or a third that time. That's the main difference, in terms of difficulty.
But finding things out for MP is a lot more technical since the games are programmed so differently. While the stuff they do in TWW are mostly about the storage glitch. So it kinda evolves around the same thing. After that, it's more about stamina and precision. Between this, you actually get some "resting time", since it's not 100% intense at all times and you don't have to be so accurate for every single movement.
I have honestly not understood why they won't do segmented runs for TWW, since it's so long. I mean, how many have the stamina to play a video game for 4.5 hours, or even the time? No wonder there are more ppl speedrunning the quicker games.

Also, if you look at how many speed tricks there are in MP1, MP2 and TWW, the difference is obvious. You can mess around with the first two a heck of a lot more than in TWW.
I'm just wondering about TWW if they're gonna find something new out soon so they can go at least sub 4.5 hrs or even sub 3 hours. Not much happening [i]there[/i], really. At least you can't argue with me about that, as opposed to e.g. ILS for MP1 ever happening.
Remember that it was the Metroid games that started the speedrunning concept and all. Speedrunning the Zelda games are more about just raw skills.
Such as it is kicking butt in "Kung Fu", one of the absolute hardest NES games ever.
Anyway, and perhaps most importantly, I don't think there's so much difference between hard core gamers themselves, since if you have a feel for one or a few games, it's more likely that you can learn and adapt to completely different games with a bit of practice and interest.
In the general population, a person can be good at a handful of games, but may have difficulty becoming a pro at either of them or a game which is very different from their favorite games.
Most aren't HC gamers, they do it for R&R and for fun. That's why quite a few frown upon sequence breaking and the stuff in MP2 especially, because they simply don't understand breaking the games and they think we who do are "missing the point" of the game.
Personally, I don't see SB-ing in MP2 is that much different from Super Metroid, just because it looks different. The games are built up around 2D and 3D and there's a decade between them, so of course it looks different. But to myself, it's the same concept. You push the game to its boundaries to break it as much as you can. And there are SB things in SM that should be very strange to many ppl as it's so "unnatural" and not intended by the creators. It's all about glitches. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to break any sequence. Of course, in some games it just may take extra skills to sequence break. But that's in a minority.
Since MP2 is so much more advanced, it may look totally unorthodox to many about e.g. MBI, as opposed to simple skips or early items in older games with less programming and less advance graphical environments and coding.
The only thing I can understand some ppl complaining about is TAS. But even then I think they don't really understand what it's all about. One good example of a TAS that is definitely impossible by any living man to copy by playing normally, is the Gradius TAS run, which is to me just art and a showcase of possibilities. It's self-explanatory that it's not "natural gaming".
Sorry for my lengthy post. :teach:

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-05-08 03:54:38 am

2013-05-08 03:51:41 am

EDIT: You know, this is pretty stupid to argue about and stuff in a completely unrelated topic. Just pretend none of this happened.