How good are MP sequels compared to the original?

2011-07-13 08:52:37 pm

Quote from arkarian:

so the power beam feeling useless is a good thing? i used it a lot in prime, even after getting wave and ice, and neither of those required ammo to stay balanced.

No I never meant that at all. I'm just saying that's the way they made it. So you go "oh ok I'll start messing around with these beams a bit more then" and so you find out they are better weapons generally for the main bulk of the game. Who cares if it makes the power beam redundant, the game is telling you (by the fact these beams have ammo) that they are far more useful but it comes at a small price. I personally have no qualms about stocking up quickly (which it usually is quick) for ammo before a room or a boss.

After playing echoes and then going back to prime I find it slightly more mundane having 4 beams with unlimited ammo. Yes call me crazy, but Prime 1 to me feels like a 3d super Metroid (nothing wrong with that I'd usually say Wink

), where echoes feels like a little experiment, a successful experiment at that. I don't really care about cohesiveness. As in: if one Metroid game had unlimited beam ammo, so should them all... this is nonsense. Imo Prime 1 became extremely tedious by the time you get to Phazon mines anyway, because you have to start killing beam specific pirates in so many fucking rooms that took way too long. I'd say Echoes is a more interesting experience cognitively compared to Prime 1, despite the cliche light and dark world you have to explore,

[quote="arkarian"]so the power beam feeling useless is a good thing? i used it a lot in prime, even after getting wave and ice, and neither of those required ammo to stay balanced.[/quote]

No I never meant that at all. I'm just saying that's the way they made it. So you go "oh ok I'll start messing around with these beams a bit more then" and so you find out they are better weapons generally for the main bulk of the game. Who cares if it makes the power beam redundant, the game is telling you (by the fact these beams have ammo) that they are far more useful but it comes at a small price. I personally have no qualms about stocking up quickly (which it usually is quick) for ammo before a room or a boss.

After playing echoes and then going back to prime I find it slightly more mundane having 4 beams with unlimited ammo. Yes call me crazy, but Prime 1 to me feels like a 3d super Metroid (nothing wrong with that I'd usually say :wink:), where echoes feels like a little experiment, a successful experiment at that. I don't really care about cohesiveness. As in: if one Metroid game had unlimited beam ammo, so should them all... this is nonsense. Imo Prime 1 became extremely tedious by the time you get to Phazon mines anyway, because you have to start killing beam specific pirates in so many fucking rooms that took way too long. I'd say Echoes is a more interesting experience cognitively compared to Prime 1, despite the cliche light and dark world you have to explore,

Turtle

2011-07-13 08:54:42 pm

I like turtles.

To be fair, the Beam Pirates were only tedious because they had too much health.

Same with Fission Metroids, actually.

tomatobob

2011-07-13 09:00:34 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Also you can pretty much ignore most beam pirates.

Behemoth

2011-07-13 09:06:13 pm

Then you can argue why put them there ?. If you didn't kill them, they shoot you to shit nonetheless

tomatobob

2011-07-13 09:10:02 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

No they won't because their aim is rubbish.

tomatobob

2011-07-13 09:10:56 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I don't think a beam pirate has ever killed me and I am terrible enough to have been killed by lava.

Behemoth

2011-07-13 09:21:56 pm

There still a damn nuisance. I guess they are just a massive distraction for me and I feel like they have to die. The music comes in we've heard a trillion times, the noises they make when you shoot them and die. It was calmed down in Echoes thankfully.

nate

2011-07-13 09:43:28 pm

i believe they have much better accuracy in pal which may provide additional insight into the origin of this argument.

tomatobob

2011-07-13 09:50:38 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

What, really? With all the weird things they changed that somehow stands out as crazy to me. Holy shit power troopers would be total assholes in that case.

UchihaSasuke

2011-07-13 11:12:11 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

i can't get out of PPC if i leave the pirate alive so there... they annoy me a lot.

i'm guessing for mp2 retro wanted to avoid the mp1 thing where plasma makes the other beams pretty much useless once you get it. with ammo, you have to be cycling between light and dark beams to keep things going well.
they clearly stopped giving a damn in mp3 where they made the hyper beam the only way to kill anything efficiently.

regarding the original statement, mp2 is the closest to mp1 there is in the series. mp3 strays a lot since it is much more linear and the story sucks. usually, people like mp2 less than mp1 (the prejudice in the OP doesn't help either) but the game overall retains most of the aspects of mp1. there's more annoyances and the progression is worse since the start and endgame are very boring but the middle of it is better than the middle of mp1 imo.
mp3's sole reason for existing was to show off the wii controls. that's how i felt since the first time i played it. i guess it is good if you really dig the pointer aiming but it can be a massive chore if you don't like the controls (the morph ball jumps aren't very reponsive and the twist/pull/bull gets old fast)

last, sequence breaks really make a difference in how the games feel, especially mp1 and 2. if you feel like replaying and running the games, looking into that is a good idea but take in consideration that the GC versions are much better for speed running. so, if you are interested in speed running, get the original versions. if you don't mind running and want to just play the game a few times, the trilogy is good enough (unless you can find the original games and mp3 cheaper than the trilogy).

i can't get out of PPC if i leave the pirate alive so there... they annoy me a lot.

i'm guessing for mp2 retro wanted to avoid the mp1 thing where plasma makes the other beams pretty much useless once you get it. with ammo, you have to be cycling between light and dark beams to keep things going well.
they clearly stopped giving a damn in mp3 where they made the hyper beam the only way to kill anything efficiently.

regarding the original statement, mp2 is the closest to mp1 there is in the series. mp3 strays a lot since it is much more linear and the story sucks. usually, people like mp2 less than mp1 (the prejudice in the OP doesn't help either) but the game overall retains most of the aspects of mp1. there's more annoyances and the progression is worse since the start and endgame are very boring but the middle of it is better than the middle of mp1 imo.
mp3's sole reason for existing was to show off the wii controls. that's how i felt since the first time i played it. i guess it is good if you really dig the pointer aiming but it can be a massive chore if you don't like the controls (the morph ball jumps aren't very reponsive and the twist/pull/bull gets old fast)

last, sequence breaks really make a difference in how the games feel, especially mp1 and 2. if you feel like replaying and running the games, looking into that is a good idea but take in consideration that the GC versions are much better for speed running. so, if you are interested in speed running, get the original versions. if you don't mind running and want to just play the game a few times, the trilogy is good enough (unless you can find the original games and mp3 cheaper than the trilogy).

Idkbutlike2

2011-07-14 08:16:36 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

What, really? With all the weird things they changed that somehow stands out as crazy to me. Holy shit power troopers would be total assholes in that case.

Power Pirates, no. Wave Pirates, definitely.

Zknight7126

(user is banned)

2011-07-14 08:18:45 pm

Every day is a happy day! :)

I have played a bit of Prime 1, loved it. Haven't played the other games, so I shouldn't judge, but GaiaCrusher9's LP of Prime 2 showed me some things of the game, and it honestly doesn't look too fun.

Behemoth

2011-07-14 09:08:03 pm

The dark colors made it boring looking didn't it ?

tomatobob

Edit history:

tomatobob: 2011-07-14 09:14:08 pm

tomatobob: 2011-07-14 09:13:47 pm

2011-07-14 09:13:09 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

To be fair, purple and black everywhere does get a bit monotonous, and that's coming from someone who liked the dark world parts best.

Quote from Idkbutlike2:

Power Pirates, no. Wave Pirates, definitely.

I might be misremembering, but don't power troopers fire fast like motherfuckers? The only reason they aren't dangerous is because they can't hit you in the NTSC version. Wave guys can be stun locked at least.

Idkbutlike2

Edit history:

Idkbutlike2: 2011-07-14 09:17:28 pm

2011-07-14 09:16:58 pm

Power Troopers can be taken out with just two super missiles while you actually have to use a bunch of charged beam shots to take out Wave Troopers (since using the Wavebuster would be a complete waste of missiles). IMO, the former is less of a bother.

tomatobob

2011-07-14 09:28:09 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

One super missile, I think. But I don't usually have many missiles when I play. At least not at the point where I first meet power troopers.

penguinseatsocks

2011-07-15 02:59:49 am

better than 99% of all the other games i've played, but not quite as good as the first. fantastic games. i recommend.

Opium

2011-07-15 01:39:40 pm

Only takes me 1 super missile to take out a power trooper. Is it 2 on hard mode maybe?

Idkbutlike2

Edit history:

Idkbutlike2: 2011-07-15 07:10:05 pm

2011-07-15 07:08:38 pm

Yeah, I was talking about hard mode. Should've been more specific :v

Turtle

2011-07-15 07:19:40 pm

I like turtles.

Everything has too much health in Hard.

Idkbutlike2

2011-07-15 07:35:19 pm

I haven't played on Normal in forever... :/

tomatobob

2011-07-15 07:43:15 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Hard is mad boring don't play it that way.

Ntsc

2011-07-15 10:30:15 pm

Of all 3 games I found Prime's hard mode to be the only one worth playing. Prime 2's hardmode is actually pretty hard (boost guardian) and yeah everyone is right about the health being to high. Prime 3's hypermode is unbelievably frustrating and makes you realize how much you miss super missles and beam combos.
I spent like a week fighting Mogenar and then gave up on hypermode difficulty for like a year because my thumb couldn't keep mashing A.

I still think Prime 2 and 3 are worth playing - its not like either of them are expensive either. Prime 2 is probably my favorite but a lot of my thoughts on the Metroid series are based on nostalgia and not actually the games quality. I loved prime because I kept borrowing it from friends only a few days at a time in middle school and never getting very far. I remember when I finally got to the sunken frigate I felt like the game was so long. Now just last weekend I beat Prime in 3 or 4 hours...and to be honest it was alright.

If there was one series I could erase from my memory, turn off hint system, and play over again it would definitely be Prime.

Of all 3 games I found Prime's hard mode to be the only one worth playing. Prime 2's hardmode is actually pretty hard (boost guardian) and yeah everyone is right about the health being to high. Prime 3's hypermode is unbelievably frustrating and makes you realize how much you miss super missles and beam combos.
I spent like a week fighting Mogenar and then gave up on hypermode difficulty for like a year because my thumb couldn't keep mashing A.

I still think Prime 2 and 3 are worth playing - its not like either of them are expensive either. Prime 2 is probably my favorite but a lot of my thoughts on the Metroid series are based on nostalgia and not actually the games quality. I loved prime because I kept borrowing it from friends only a few days at a time in middle school and never getting very far. I remember when I finally got to the sunken frigate I felt like the game was so long. Now just last weekend I beat Prime in 3 or 4 hours...and to be honest it was alright.

If there was one series I could erase from my memory, turn off hint system, and play over again it would definitely be Prime.

sabata2

2011-07-16 01:15:58 am

ANKOKU

Quote from Ntsc:

If there was one series I could erase from my memory, turn off hint system, and play over again it would definitely be Prime.

Don't play it for 7 years.
Then try to 100% it without a guide.

That's what I did, and it was great. I got to Flaagrah faster than I thought I would but still a lot of the game was really good.

Aruki

Edit history:

Aruki: 2011-07-29 07:08:34 pm

Aruki: 2011-07-29 06:59:40 pm

Aruki: 2011-07-29 06:58:46 pm

2011-07-29 06:58:31 pm

Quote from nate:

if you like watching speedruns, prime 2's are lightyears ahead of prime 3 stuff due to the amount and significance of tricks found in the game.

...but the prime 3 run is still awesome and you should watch it! >_> <_<

to be on-topic, though, if you liked Prime 1 then Prime 2 is the better sequel. MP3 is just completely different. The worst thing about it imo is the level design. Just in general the entire thing feels linear, the maps for each area is usually a straight line and the rooms don't interconnect much. All three of Bryyo's areas are basically straight lines, Elysia starts out as a straight line, etc. It basically becomes "go through an area up until you get to the end, do a scripted event that doesn't actually improve your abilities, go back the way you came, fly somewhere else, repeat". Elysia is worse because it basically goes "go to the AU, do something, go to the AU, do something, go to the AU, do something" etc.

Aside from that, combat is really dull because of Hypermode; I believe Retro said at some point that the idea was to make you feel super powerful, but it doesn't work because all the enemies are scaled to be a threat with Hypermode. That means that not only do you not get the "powerful" feeling because they are just as strong as you are, but it limits your combat options severely, because it means all of your weapons are completely useless in combat situations EXCEPT Hypermode. If your health drops low enough that you can't go into Hypermode anymore, you are basically screwed because you can't defend yourself that low. Some bosses can only be hurt by Hypermode too which doesn't really help.

The fact that the game constantly holds your hand and tells you where to go and what to do isn't great either, but I suppose couldn't really be avoided because a lot of the time you are doing things that have no impact except to advance the plot, so it'd be hard to stumble on it on your own. MP3's just designed in a way so that you can't play it the same way you can play 1 and 2. :/ MP2's gotten a lot of flak, around here especially, but it's the better game overall, it's not quite as good as 1 but at least it has interlocking, complex level design that aren't straight lines, gives you at least some degree of combat variability, gives you upgrades that are actually useful, isn't so plot-heavy that the game needs to tell you what to do all the time... etc. Being broken to the point of being nearly completely non-linear helps too. <_<

Also apparently I love to write long posts. Oh well. I mostly just wanted to reply to nate's post without seeming like I was bumping a 2 week old thread for no reason and I wrote that. <_<

[quote="nate"]if you like watching speedruns, prime 2's are lightyears ahead of prime 3 stuff due to the amount and significance of tricks found in the game.[/quote]

...but the prime 3 run is still awesome and you should watch it! >_> <_<

to be on-topic, though, if you liked Prime 1 then Prime 2 is the better sequel. MP3 is just completely different. The worst thing about it imo is the level design. Just in general the entire thing feels linear, the maps for each area is usually a straight line and the rooms don't interconnect much. All three of Bryyo's areas are basically straight lines, Elysia starts out as a straight line, etc. It basically becomes "go through an area up until you get to the end, do a scripted event that doesn't actually improve your abilities, go back the way you came, fly somewhere else, repeat". Elysia is worse because it basically goes "go to the AU, do something, go to the AU, do something, go to the AU, do something" etc.

Aside from that, combat is really dull because of Hypermode; I believe Retro said at some point that the idea was to make you feel super powerful, but it doesn't work because all the enemies are scaled to be a threat with Hypermode. That means that not only do you not get the "powerful" feeling because they are just as strong as you are, but it limits your combat options severely, because it means all of your weapons are completely useless in combat situations EXCEPT Hypermode. If your health drops low enough that you can't go into Hypermode anymore, you are basically screwed because you can't defend yourself that low. Some bosses can only be hurt by Hypermode too which doesn't really help.

The fact that the game constantly holds your hand and tells you where to go and what to do isn't great either, but I suppose couldn't really be avoided because a lot of the time you are doing things that have no impact except to advance the plot, so it'd be hard to stumble on it on your own. MP3's just designed in a way so that you can't play it the same way you can play 1 and 2. :/ MP2's gotten a lot of flak, around here especially, but it's the better game overall, it's not quite as good as 1 but at least it has interlocking, complex level design that aren't straight lines, gives you at least some degree of combat variability, gives you upgrades that are actually useful, isn't so plot-heavy that the game needs to tell you what to do all the time... etc. Being broken to the point of being nearly completely non-linear helps too. <_<

Also apparently I love to write long posts. Oh well. I mostly just wanted to reply to nate's post without seeming like I was bumping a 2 week old thread for no reason and I wrote that. <_<