Has the Prime trilogy been retconned out of existence?

2010-12-16 09:07:43 pm

Quote from sabata2:

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Yeah, let's have Samus just get angry at everything. That's what a normal human being does. Look, I'll say it again, some people LIKE IT that Samus is portrayed as having emotional weaknesses instead of being a badass Mary Sue all of the time. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to crush others' opinions.

The emotional impact in the MANGA makes sense. Everything is FRESH to her relatively.
Shock at seeing one of her parental figures teaming up with the one who killed her parents, feeling despair at being "thrown under the bus" and betrayed, and revulsion to the point of rage.
She then turns that rage on those who have put her through that trauma and gets her revenge.

In Other M, it's as if she hasn't "grown up" or progressed AT ALL.
At minimum FIVE major missions occured between then and M:OM, most of which recalling her to fight with Ridley once more.
You can't try to explain it away with "She thought he was REALLY dead after Super" because PTSD DOESN'T occur ONLY when you think the threat has disappeared!
The knowledge that "Ridley is still alive" in Prime, Corruption, and Super does NOT override the traumatic situation of "This guy killed my parents, annihilated my adoptive parents, and leads the intergalactic band of villains."
To assume so would mean that simply thinking "My job is never over" will STOP PTSD from EVER occuring.

So we come to the result that EITHER:
Samus had that truamatic pause in Prime, Corruption, AND Super, it just wasn't shown.
OR
Samus does not have PTSD, but selective reaction times to traumatic events (as we only ever see her act on it in the Manga [not even in ZM] and M:OM)

THERE is your well written reason why people dislike how she was portrayed in the Ridley scene.
It is either something we NEVER have seen before (sans manga) and was introduced POORLY, or it makes absolutely no sense in relation to the other times we've seen her.

Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before. It being introduced poorly is also your opinion. None of us can say, definitively, what Sakamoto's intentions were unless he's interviewed directly so you can't just create assumptions out of the blue, maybe Sakamoto would've liked Samus to show fear in those games but he wasn't in charge before? Also, how does Other M imply that she hasn't grown up at all when she's only paralyzed with shock for 2 minutes? That doesn't imply any growth from the manga, where she's begging for death? I don't see the correlation. Samus looked up to Adam as a Father and there are hints that he feels the same so, are you implying she hadn't "grown up" because she has such deep respect for Adam?

As for this claim of "crippling emotion", her emotions only CRIPPLE her for 2 minutes in the Ridley fight, name one other spot in the rest of the game that shows Samus' emotions actually crippling her combat abilities. The only other time I know of that she needs help is against the Adolescent Ridley fight and that's because he had her pinned and she was barely able to keep his tail away.

[quote="sabata2"][quote="MetroidJunkie"]Yeah, let's have Samus just get angry at everything. That's what a normal human being does. Look, I'll say it again, some people LIKE IT that Samus is portrayed as having emotional weaknesses instead of being a badass Mary Sue all of the time. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to crush others' opinions.[/quote]
The emotional impact in the MANGA makes sense. Everything is FRESH to her relatively.
Shock at seeing one of her parental figures teaming up with the one who killed her parents, feeling despair at being "thrown under the bus" and betrayed, and revulsion to the point of rage.
She then turns that rage on those who have put her through that trauma and gets her revenge.

In Other M, it's as if she hasn't "grown up" or progressed AT ALL.
At minimum FIVE major missions occured between then and M:OM, most of which recalling her to fight with Ridley once more.
You can't try to explain it away with "She thought he was REALLY dead after Super" because PTSD DOESN'T occur ONLY when you think the threat has disappeared!
The knowledge that "Ridley is still alive" in Prime, Corruption, and Super does NOT override the traumatic situation of "This guy killed my parents, annihilated my adoptive parents, and leads the intergalactic band of villains."
To assume so would mean that simply thinking "My job is never over" will STOP PTSD from EVER occuring.

So we come to the result that EITHER:
Samus had that truamatic pause in Prime, Corruption, AND Super, it just wasn't shown.
OR
Samus does not have PTSD, but selective reaction times to traumatic events (as we only ever see her act on it in the Manga [not even in ZM] and M:OM)

THERE is your well written reason why people dislike how she was portrayed in the Ridley scene.
It is either something we NEVER have seen before (sans manga) and was introduced POORLY, or it makes absolutely no sense in relation to the other times we've seen her.[/quote]

Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before. It being introduced poorly is also your opinion. None of us can say, definitively, what Sakamoto's intentions were unless he's interviewed directly so you can't just create assumptions out of the blue, maybe Sakamoto would've liked Samus to show fear in those games but he wasn't in charge before? Also, how does Other M imply that she hasn't grown up at all when she's only paralyzed with shock for 2 minutes? That doesn't imply any growth from the manga, where she's begging for death? I don't see the correlation. Samus looked up to Adam as a Father and there are hints that he feels the same so, are you implying she hadn't "grown up" because she has such deep respect for Adam?

As for this claim of "crippling emotion", her emotions only CRIPPLE her for 2 minutes in the Ridley fight, name one other spot in the rest of the game that shows Samus' emotions actually crippling her combat abilities. The only other time I know of that she needs help is against the Adolescent Ridley fight and that's because he had her pinned and she was barely able to keep his tail away.

Baron Dante

2010-12-16 09:16:28 pm

Sakamoto has been in charge of Metroid long enough time.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-16 09:18:37 pm

Really? I could've sworn he was only co-creator and, until recently, hadn't been the primary director before. Whatever Metroid game did he have COMPLETE control over in terms of direction?

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-16 09:23:35 pm

sabata2: 2010-12-16 09:22:57 pm

2010-12-16 09:21:43 pm

ANKOKU

If you think introducing emotions by almost literally going "LOOK LOOK SHE'S AFRAID! SEE SHE CAN BE PARALYZED WITH FEAR! SHE'S FOUGHT THIS GUY FOUR TIMES PREVIOUSLY IN THE TIME LINE AND HAS SHOWN NO REASON TO BE AFRAID BEFORE HAND, BUT SHE'S ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED!!!" is a "good" introduction of emotions to a character who has been a blank slate to gamers (not Metroid Aficionados like us) I suggest you read some novels or look to some critically acclaimed movies. Because even though I like M:OM I'm not jaded enough to say it had good writing or good character portrayal.

And it's not the fact that "She's improved somewhat" It's the amount of time and SIMILAR OCCURRENCES that make it worse.
If we had seen that in PRIME It would have made more sense (as stated earlier), but we DONT.
Even if it had happened in Corruption, the more Story-centric game of the trilogy, it would have been better having only been about a year behind Prime Time line wise, but we DONT.

But no, she's fought this creature that causes her PTSD to rear it's ugly head THREE TIMES BEFOREHAND and NOT SHOWN HER PTSD. (That's using the Manga as the plot for Metroid 1 and NOT ZM)
PTSD isn't something with an on/off switch where "Oh he isn't dead yet" will keep it off.
If she has PTSD from simply SEEING RIDLEY, that should have been apparent in Prime, Corruption, and Super.
As she didn't display that, I'm going to have to point you to the conclusions I came to earlier:
Either she doesn't have PTSD and just freaks out at random points
OR
She has PTSD that has NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO GAMERS, and was introduced incredibly poorly.

If you think introducing emotions by almost literally going "LOOK LOOK SHE'S AFRAID! SEE SHE CAN BE PARALYZED WITH FEAR! SHE'S FOUGHT THIS GUY FOUR TIMES PREVIOUSLY IN THE TIME LINE AND HAS SHOWN [u][i][b]NO[/b][/i][/u] REASON TO BE AFRAID BEFORE HAND, BUT SHE'S ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED!!!" is a "good" introduction of emotions to a character who has been a blank slate to gamers (not Metroid Aficionados like us) I suggest you read some novels or look to some critically acclaimed movies. Because even though I like M:OM I'm not jaded enough to say it had good writing or good character portrayal.

And it's not the fact that "She's improved somewhat" It's the amount of time and SIMILAR OCCURRENCES that make it worse.
If we had seen that in PRIME It would have made more sense (as stated earlier), but [i]we [u]DONT[/u][/i].
Even if it had happened in Corruption, the more Story-centric game of the trilogy, it would have been better having only been about a year behind Prime Time line wise, but [i]we [u]DONT[/u][/i].

But no, she's fought this creature that causes her PTSD to rear it's ugly head THREE TIMES BEFOREHAND and NOT SHOWN HER PTSD. (That's using the Manga as the plot for Metroid 1 and NOT ZM)
PTSD isn't something with an on/off switch where "Oh he isn't dead yet" will keep it off.
If she has PTSD from simply SEEING RIDLEY, that should have been apparent in Prime, Corruption, and Super.
As she didn't display that, I'm going to have to point you to the conclusions I came to earlier:
Either she doesn't have PTSD and just freaks out at random points
OR
She has PTSD that has NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO GAMERS, and was introduced [u]incredibly[/u] poorly.

Turtle

2010-12-16 09:25:23 pm

I like turtles.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before.

Common misconception. Try playing any of the games again, except perhaps the original NES Metroid (admittedly I can't speak for Prime Hunters). It's subtle, but it's there.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

As for this claim of "crippling emotion", her emotions only CRIPPLE her for 2 minutes in the Ridley fight, name one other spot in the rest of the game that shows Samus' emotions actually crippling her combat abilities. The only other time I know of that she needs help is against the Adolescent Ridley fight and that's because he had her pinned and she was barely able to keep his tail away.

The issue is really more that they cripple her at all. That's like saying that because someone murdered a man in less than a couple of minutes, he was only a murderer for a couple of minutes. All right, maybe the example was a little extreme, but it's the principle behind it: it really doesn't take much. In fact, I'd say that the moment stands out all the more because it's so over-the-top, even in the context of the rest of the game.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]
Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before.[/quote]
Common misconception.  Try playing any of the games again, except perhaps the original NES [i]Metroid[/i] (admittedly I can't speak for [i]Prime Hunters[/i]).  It's subtle, but it's there.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]
As for this claim of "crippling emotion", her emotions only CRIPPLE her for 2 minutes in the Ridley fight, name one other spot in the rest of the game that shows Samus' emotions actually crippling her combat abilities. The only other time I know of that she needs help is against the Adolescent Ridley fight and that's because he had her pinned and she was barely able to keep his tail away.[/quote]
The issue is really more that they cripple her [i]at all[/i].  That's like saying that because someone murdered a man in less than a couple of minutes, he was only a murderer for a couple of minutes.  All right, maybe the example was a little extreme, but it's the principle behind it: it really doesn't take much.  In fact, I'd say that the moment stands out all the more [i]because[/i] it's so over-the-top, even in the context of the rest of the game.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-16 09:27:22 pm

Well, this is the first game where Sakamoto is the primary directing force, it's possible that he's the only one that feels Samus fearing anything is appropriate. Others may have shot him down for the other games since we have people much like you that think it's horrible for Samus to show fear infront of her rival. She's just supposed to be a Mary Sue Bounty Hunter who only shows emotions in a few scattered instances (Like having a sad look infront of the Chozo Temple on fire), I take it. Her personality isn't ever supposed to be insecure or unsure, she's supposed to be this unwavering death machine whom can never have any problems because she's perfect.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-16 09:28:46 pm

2010-12-16 09:28:17 pm

ANKOKU

Quote from Turtle:

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before.

Common misconception. Try playing any of the games again, except perhaps the original NES Metroid (admittedly I can't speak for Prime Hunters). It's subtle, but it's there.

75%+ Endings of prime show easily recognizable regret and sorrow at having to destroy a Chozo planet.
Same with Corruption over the loss of her comrades in arms.

Turtle

Edit history:

Turtle: 2010-12-16 09:34:04 pm

2010-12-16 09:33:51 pm

I like turtles.

-She shows clear anger at seeing Ridley alive at the beginning of Prime (not fear or despair or desperate denial; anger).
-She also closes the eye of the Marine Captain in the beginning of Echoes. Compassion.
-She's clearly creeped out by Dark Samus' "death" at the end of Echoes.
-She spares the baby Metroid out of sympathy and perhaps regret over committing genocide.
-She RAGES when said Metroid is killed by Mother Brain. I've said it before, I'll say it again: the anger in that scene is palpable, and that's something that not even modern games can always achieve.
-She expresses annoyance and surprise before and after she learns the true nature of her CO's AI in Fusion.

Just because she's not constantly whining about her feelings doesn't mean her displays of emotion are any less valid when they do happen.

Tahngarthor

2010-12-16 09:49:55 pm

Bangaa Bishop

Quote:

Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before.

Not really true, samus has had her emotional moments in the past. Turtle covered most of it.

People would have been fine with samus' emotions @ ridley if she had exhibited such traits in the past. It's the fact that we got totally blindsided by something that is normally uncharacteristic of Samus.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-16 09:57:16 pm

2010-12-16 09:56:35 pm

ANKOKU

To put it simply Junkie...

Her emotions were SUBTLE in ALL prior installments.

Maybe it's a disjoint between the American and Japanese conception of her, but being the hero who looks at the town burning and clenches their fist and teeth as tears well up in their eyes has JUST as much emotional range as the hero who breaks down crying at the same scenario.

It's just one is a stronger hero than the other.
And Other M chose the WRONG one.

tomatobob

2010-12-16 11:47:50 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Turtle:

-She also closes the eye of the Marine Captain in the beginning of Echoes. Compassion.

I gives Echoes crap all the time, but I do have to give it some credit on this point. It's a very subtle thing, almost casual, you could very well ignore it entirely. And it characterizes Samus better than literally everything in Other M.

Metroid_Zelda Fan

2010-12-17 01:16:36 am

I didn't get that bothered by the Ridley scene, but it was really out of the blue.

In retrospect, maybe the whole Ridley scene is in slow motion and Samus is only frozen up for 10 seconds. Unlikely, but it makes everything make sense again.

UchihaSasuke

2010-12-17 01:22:14 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

the freak out scene would have worked better if it was against Queen Metroid or Phantoon since she had encountered those 2 enemies only once before and they're more dangerous than Ridley apparently.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-17 02:14:12 am

Quote from Tahngarthor:

Quote:

Her emotions are NEVER explored in ANY game before.

Not really true, samus has had her emotional moments in the past. Turtle covered most of it.

People would have been fine with samus' emotions @ ridley if she had exhibited such traits in the past. It's the fact that we got totally blindsided by something that is normally uncharacteristic of Samus.

Uncharacteristic of how you perceive Samus. Unless I'm wrong, the manga was written either shortly after the first Metroid or before it.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-17 02:47:15 am

2010-12-17 02:44:45 am

ANKOKU

You're very, very wrong.
The manga that shows her PTSD was written post-Prime.

You're also still looking at the scene from a Metroid Aficionado. Basically the only ones who KNOW OF the manga are those on this board and those on MetroidDB.

Forget the manga and look at the scene again, with just information given from in game sources or instruction booklets. (Assume later releases completely retcon prior ones)

Congratulations you just figured out the "majority" perception of Samus.

Tahngarthor

2010-12-17 02:46:15 am

Bangaa Bishop

I think someone posted in another thread some time ago a scan from an old nintendo power that showed a cutaway of samus' suit and she was described as a tall, tough, beefy woman, e.g. someone you don't want to mess with. Then, years later, she gets frozen with fear at the sight of an ass she's kicked multiple times before. It. Just. Doesn't. Make. Sense. It's not like we just think she's tough- Nintendo told us in the past. I just don't buy the PTSD thing, simply because I question whether it could really ever take that long to manifest.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-17 02:59:54 am

Quote from Tahngarthor:

I think someone posted in another thread some time ago a scan from an old nintendo power that showed a cutaway of samus' suit and she was described as a tall, tough, beefy woman, e.g. someone you don't want to mess with. Then, years later, she gets frozen with fear at the sight of an ass she's kicked multiple times before. It. Just. Doesn't. Make. Sense. It's not like we just think she's tough- Nintendo told us in the past. I just don't buy the PTSD thing, simply because I question whether it could really ever take that long to manifest.

Again, Vietnam Veteran, PTSD STILL influences him. It can occur more randomly than you think.

Tahngarthor

Edit history:

Tahngarthor: 2010-12-17 03:10:25 am

Tahngarthor: 2010-12-17 03:09:39 am

2010-12-17 03:08:52 am

Bangaa Bishop

Quote:

Again, Vietnam Veteran, PTSD STILL influences him. It can occur more randomly than you think.

"still" implies it influenced the person earlier. I don't buy PTSD not existing for years and years and then suddenly appearing. Samus has never previously demonstrated any fear of ridley. This isn't a question as to whether or not PTSD is real. I certainly think it is. I just don't feel it can be applied in this case.

Maybe they wanted Samus to look more "Human," but I don't think it ended up working the way they thought.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-17 05:14:26 am

Quote from Tahngarthor:

Quote:

Again, Vietnam Veteran, PTSD STILL influences him. It can occur more randomly than you think.

"still" implies it influenced the person earlier. I don't buy PTSD not existing for years and years and then suddenly appearing. Samus has never previously demonstrated any fear of ridley. This isn't a question as to whether or not PTSD is real. I certainly think it is. I just don't feel it can be applied in this case.

Maybe they wanted Samus to look more "Human," but I don't think it ended up working the way they thought.

Problem: Sakamoto was never given exclusive control over the series before. Perhaps Retro Studios had an objection to portraying Samus with PTSD?

As for the "tall, tough, beefy woman, e.g. someone you don't want to mess with." description, tough people are allowed to rarely crumble under emotion. Case in point, Makoto (Lina/Sailor Jupiter) on Sailor Moon. She's had moments of weakness. Even in Other M, Samus' emotions impacting her combat abilities is VERY rare. That you all keep harping on this one scene is proof of that.

[quote="Tahngarthor"][quote]Again, Vietnam Veteran, PTSD STILL influences him. It can occur more randomly than you think.[/quote]
"still" implies it influenced the person earlier. I don't buy PTSD not existing for years and years and then suddenly appearing. Samus has never previously demonstrated any fear of ridley. This isn't a question as to whether or not PTSD is real. I certainly think it is. I just don't feel it can be applied in this case.

Maybe they wanted Samus to look more "Human," but I don't think it ended up working the way they thought.[/quote]

Problem:  Sakamoto was never given exclusive control over the series before. Perhaps Retro Studios had an objection to portraying Samus with PTSD?

As for the "tall, tough, beefy woman, e.g. someone you don't want to mess with." description, tough people are allowed to rarely crumble under emotion. Case in point, Makoto (Lina/Sailor Jupiter) on Sailor Moon. She's had moments of weakness. Even in Other M, Samus' emotions impacting her combat abilities is VERY rare. That you all keep harping on this one scene is proof of that.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-12-17 06:02:02 am

2010-12-17 05:59:49 am

ANKOKU

The "PTSD" Samus wasn't introduced until AFTER Retro had control of Metroid.
They COULDN'T object because it DIDN'T EXIST.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

That you all keep harping on this one scene is proof of that.

That's because every other time we see her in a cutscene she's doing something retarded. She doesn't HAVE to whine or freeze for us to be repulsed.
Case and point:
"It seems they're reserching Bio-weapons on this station..."
*Slams her hand on the desk* "Adam! Is the Galactic Federation Researching Bio-Weapons here?!"

But that's a whole 'nother story.

*edit
You know, you won't be repeating yourself often, or constantly restating things that aren't true if you stop selectively reading posts, such as mine.

I told you before that the Manga came out post-Prime, Retro had no clue Samus was PTSD. And there was no reason to ever think she would be up to that point.

MetroidJunkie

2010-12-17 07:58:32 am

That's because she was speaking in both monologue and then ingame. She was recalling the event, before saying it. I'm not saying it isn't a flawed presentation but Samus isn't the retarded one there.

As for the manga coming out after Prime, wouldn't that justify it further? Retro Studios wasn't aware of this PTSD backstory when they were designing the game and, since Nintendo gave the thumbs up for the written manga, that would make it canon. However, Retro must've either had some objection with the Ridley in Corruption or they simply never thought to include it. I still think Samus fearing ONE enemy in the entire game isn't grounds for calling her weak and helpless.

Throughout the rest of the game, before and after, she's kicking creature ass. She also saves Anthony, making the argument that Anthony had to save her kind of hypocritical. I don't count the Lizard Ridley scene because Samus had her plasma cannon and, if Anthony wasn't there and Samus needed it urgently enough, I'm sure Adam would've authorized it and she could've wounded him herself. Anthony just happened to want to cover her since he considers her a war buddy.

That's because she was speaking in both monologue and then ingame. She was recalling the event, before saying it. I'm not saying it isn't a flawed presentation but Samus isn't the retarded one there.

As for the manga coming out after Prime, wouldn't that justify it further? Retro Studios wasn't aware of this PTSD backstory when they were designing the game and, since Nintendo gave the thumbs up for the written manga, that would make it canon. However, Retro must've either had some objection with the Ridley in Corruption or they simply never thought to include it. I still think Samus fearing ONE enemy in the entire game isn't grounds for calling her weak and helpless.

Throughout the rest of the game, before and after, she's kicking creature ass. She also saves Anthony, making the argument that Anthony had to save her kind of hypocritical. I don't count the Lizard Ridley scene because Samus had her plasma cannon and, if Anthony wasn't there and Samus needed it urgently enough, I'm sure Adam would've authorized it and she could've wounded him herself. Anthony just happened to want to cover her since he considers her a war buddy.

Turtle

2010-12-17 08:53:27 am

I like turtles.

You know what would've been awesome? Samus and Anthony teaming up on Ridley, after Samus did not, in fact, freeze up.

Samus would have to lure Ridley into Anthony's line of sight once he finished charging his gun. At some point, Ridley would knock Anthony off the platform, then Adam would authorize the Plasma Beam, and the fight would continue as usual. All of that could've happened without turning Samus into a bawling three-year-old.

And again, the fact that gameplay!Samus is still awesome, even in the same game, makes it all the more jarring whenever she becomes a wimp.

MetroidJunkie

Edit history:

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-17 09:34:05 am

MetroidJunkie: 2010-12-17 09:27:48 am

2010-12-17 09:25:36 am

So... you'd rather Samus treat Ridley like every other monster than have her show actual fear and show that she has flaws? Samus: Oh, hello creature that killed my family. Let me proceed to kill you without any emotions whatsoever.

By the way, when I said her emotions weren't explored in any other game, I meant she never had any flawed emotions. Can you think of any times in Primes where Samus' personality is anything but "ZOMG, badass" or something that reduces from her status as perfect? I'd rather have Samus be human and sweat at Ridley's appearance than just have her treat him like EVERY OTHER boss fight.

Side note: Are you implying that her being a badass throughout the game makes her being paralyzed with fear just horrible? She's not sobbing nor is she huddled in the corner like a baby. She's simply backing away and shouting "Ridley!?" and "It can't be!", she's not exactly begging Ridley not to hurt her or any of that.

Most people may not realize this but, the voice sobbing "No!" is from the flashback. You can clearly see no tears on Samus' eyes. She only sheds tears when Adam's about to kill himself, which would be appropriate for the situation.

So... you'd rather Samus treat Ridley like every other monster than have her show actual fear and show that she has flaws? Samus: Oh, hello creature that killed my family. Let me proceed to kill you without any emotions whatsoever.

By the way, when I said her emotions weren't explored in any other game, I meant she never had any flawed emotions. Can you think of any times in Primes where Samus' personality is anything but "ZOMG, badass" or something that reduces from her status as perfect? I'd rather have Samus be human and sweat at Ridley's appearance than just have her treat him like EVERY OTHER boss fight.

Side note: Are you implying that her being a badass throughout the game makes her being paralyzed with fear just horrible? She's not sobbing nor is she huddled in the corner like a baby. She's simply backing away and shouting "Ridley!?" and "It can't be!", she's not exactly begging Ridley not to hurt her or any of that.

Most people may not realize this but, the voice sobbing "No!" is from the flashback. You can clearly see no tears on Samus' eyes. She only sheds tears when Adam's about to kill himself, which would be appropriate for the situation.

Turtle

2010-12-17 11:20:52 am

I like turtles.

Quote from MetroidJunkie:

By the way, when I said her emotions weren't explored in any other game, I meant she never had any flawed emotions. Can you think of any times in Primes where Samus' personality is anything but "ZOMG, badass" or something that reduces from her status as perfect? I'd rather have Samus be human and sweat at Ridley's appearance than just have her treat him like EVERY OTHER boss fight.

"Flawed" emotions? Really? First: Character flaws do not make a good character. A flawed character can be written just as badly as a perfect one, and the fact is that Samus (who never needed more flaws introduced, since her character worked just fine before) was badly written in Other M. Flawed characters != good, and perfect characters != bad. Second: If you want a character who's a coward or a jerk or what have you, then you're looking in the wrong series. Try Uncharted if you want to see a well-written, flawed character; not Other M.

But all this is immaterial. Metroid, rather like The Legend of Zelda, has always had a protagonist whose personality is left up to the player to decide, in part. Does that mean they can't show emotion? Absolutely not. But the difference between shutting the Captain's eyes in Echoes and the Ridley scene is mostly that you can reasonably expect the player to maybe be a little sad at seeing the tragedy in the former, but you can't reasonably expect the player to feel the same abject despair that Samus does in the latter. And when you can't get the player to see through the protagonist's eyes even a little bit, that's a sign of an implausibly-written scene.

[quote="MetroidJunkie"]By the way, when I said her emotions weren't explored in any other game, I meant she never had any flawed emotions. Can you think of any times in Primes where Samus' personality is anything but "ZOMG, badass" or something that reduces from her status as perfect? I'd rather have Samus be human and sweat at Ridley's appearance than just have her treat him like EVERY OTHER boss fight.[/quote]
"Flawed" emotions?  Really?  First: Character flaws do not make a good character.  A flawed character can be written just as badly as a perfect one, and the fact is that Samus (who never needed more flaws introduced, since her character worked just fine before) was badly written in [i]Other M[/i].  Flawed characters != good, and perfect characters != bad.  Second: If you want a character who's a coward or a jerk or what have you, then you're looking in the wrong series.  Try [i]Uncharted[/i] if you want to see a well-written, flawed character; not [i]Other M[/i].

But all this is immaterial.  [i]Metroid[/i], rather like [i]The Legend of Zelda[/i], has always had a protagonist whose personality is left up to the player to decide, in part.  Does that mean they can't show emotion?  Absolutely not.  But the difference between shutting the Captain's eyes in [i]Echoes[/i] and the Ridley scene is mostly that you can reasonably expect the player to maybe be a little sad at seeing the tragedy in the former, but you can't reasonably expect the player to feel the same abject despair that Samus does in the latter.  And when you can't get the player to see through the protagonist's eyes even a little bit, that's a sign of an implausibly-written scene.

Prime Hunter

2010-12-17 12:19:04 pm

Quote from Turtle:

Character flaws do not make a good character.

To be honest, I've always felt that a good character with at least one major flaw are the best characters overall. Makes them seem more real, since nobody is absolutely perfect. Sort of like how I don't really like Superman that much but love Batman, due in part to the way their powers/weaknesses are handled. Yeah, you're right that any character can be good or bad depending on the writing, but if there's a perfect and flawed character working off of the same level of quality, chances are I'll go for the flawed one in the end because they're more believable to me. (Obviously I do like some perfect characters, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment.)

Quote from Turtle:

But all this is immaterial. Metroid, rather like The Legend of Zelda, has always had a protagonist whose personality is left up to the player to decide, in part.

But you've got to realize that ever since Fusion, there has definitely been a shift away from that towards making Samus a full fledged character with a backstory and personality behind her. It may have been true originally, but I don't see that anymore, or at least not anywhere near as much as I used to. But again, you do have a point with the Ridley scene, even though I understood the basis behind it a little due to understanding the history between them.

[quote="Turtle"]Character flaws do not make a good character.[/quote]
To be honest, I've always felt that a good character with at least one major flaw are the best characters overall. Makes them seem more real, since nobody is absolutely perfect. Sort of like how I don't really like Superman that much but love Batman, due in part to the way their powers/weaknesses are handled. Yeah, you're right that any character can be good or bad depending on the writing, but if there's a perfect and flawed character working off of the same level of quality, chances are I'll go for the flawed one in the end because they're more believable to me. (Obviously I do like some perfect characters, but I can't think of any specific examples at this moment.)

[quote="Turtle"]But all this is immaterial.  [i]Metroid[/i], rather like [i]The Legend of Zelda[/i], has always had a protagonist whose personality is left up to the player to decide, in part.[/quote]
But you've got to realize that ever since Fusion, there has definitely been a shift away from that towards making Samus a full fledged character with a backstory and personality behind her. It may have been true originally, but I don't see that anymore, or at least not anywhere near as much as I used to. But again, you do have a point with the Ridley scene, even though I understood the basis behind it a little due to understanding the history between them.