Has the Prime trilogy been retconned out of existence?

2010-09-25 08:28:06 pm

The first two chapters were originally written for the E-Manga, which was written by Fusion's Japan release, the rest were written later.

Also, the galleries don't mean anything.

sabata2

2010-09-25 08:30:56 pm

ANKOKU

So, now parts from the GAMES aren't considered canon?

You're digging yourself a hole.

TheMG2

2010-09-25 08:33:33 pm

OK, so the toy Baby Metroid, Samus, and SA-X in the last gallery image are a part of the story. And Samus is wearing the Fusion Suit while fighting Neo-Ridley. >_>

sabata2

2010-09-25 08:36:09 pm

ANKOKU

Are you sure you want to follow that thread of thought?

Cause If you do, I can prove that that would mean you don't think any cutscene in the games would be canon.

TheMG2

2010-09-25 08:41:59 pm

We are discussing the galleries, NOT the cutscenes.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-09-25 08:59:25 pm

2010-09-25 08:57:43 pm

ANKOKU

Oookay, here we go.

Inside the Galleries there are endings that you can get directly from the game (The ending scenes).
The Fusion Gallery contains the endings for Fusion in the same manner.
These images in the gallery are directly tied into gameplay completeness and speed (definitely part of the game).
Other M has a gallery of the cutscenes.
These cutscenes are tied directly into the plotline, gameplay upgrades, and add a fixed amount to your completion time (definitely part of the game).
If the Image Gallery, which contains portions that are definitely part of the game, is non canon, then it can be said that the cutscenes, which are contained in a gallery and are definitely portions of the game, are non canon as well.
This would mean that the Video Gallery contains non canon stuff. But the video gallery contains exactly what was in the game.
This would mean that if one is non canon then the other would have to be too.
Therefore, the cutscenes in Other M would have to be non canon.
But you can't say that one game's cutscenes in a series are non canon while others are, therefore either Other M's cutscenes are canon (which would imply so are the image galleries), or all other game cutscenes in the series are non canon.

And just to tie the images to the cutscenes moreso.
The images have no impact on gameplay, but are reliant on gameplay.
I pose to you the question that "Aren't the two ending cutscenes in Other M exactly the same?" They have no impact on gameplay but are reliant on how far you make it through the game.
If you say that things that "have no impact on gameplay, but are reliant on gameplay" are non canon, then by definition the two ending cutscenes would have to be non canon as well.
Now, similar to how one game's cutscenes can't be canon while another in the series is not, one cutscene in a game can not be non canon while the others are.
Either the cutscenes in question are canon (and by definition so are the images), or none of the cutscenes are canon and by connection no cutscenes in the metroid universe are canon.

Oookay, here we go.

Inside the Galleries there are endings that you can get directly from the game (The ending scenes).
The Fusion Gallery contains the endings for Fusion in the same manner.
These images in the gallery are directly tied into gameplay completeness and speed (definitely part of the game).
Other M has a gallery of the cutscenes.
These cutscenes are tied directly into the plotline, gameplay upgrades, and add a fixed amount to your completion time (definitely part of the game).
If the Image Gallery, which contains portions that are definitely part of the game, is non canon, then it can be said that the cutscenes, which are contained in a gallery and are definitely portions of the game, are non canon as well.
This would mean that the Video Gallery contains non canon stuff. But the video gallery contains exactly what was in the game.
This would mean that if one is non canon then the other would have to be too.
Therefore, the cutscenes in Other M would have to be non canon.
But you can't say that one game's cutscenes in a series are non canon while others are, therefore either Other M's cutscenes are canon (which would imply so are the image galleries), or all other game cutscenes  in the series are non canon.

And just to tie the images to the cutscenes moreso.
The images have no impact on gameplay, but are reliant on gameplay.
I pose to you the question that "Aren't the two ending cutscenes in Other M exactly the same?" They have no impact on gameplay but are reliant on how far you make it through the game.
If you say that things that "have no impact on gameplay, but are reliant on gameplay" are non canon, then by definition the two ending cutscenes would have to be non canon as well.
Now, similar to how one game's cutscenes can't be canon while another in the series is not, one cutscene in a game can not be non canon while the others are.
Either the cutscenes in question are canon (and by definition so are the images), or none of the cutscenes are canon and by connection no cutscenes in the metroid universe are canon.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2010-09-25 09:06:30 pm

2010-09-25 09:05:04 pm

The image gallery doesn't have portions that are a part of the game. A third of the MF's gallery is Samus in skimpy clothing, half is from the E-Manga, and the last two are miscellaneous.

EDIT: Of course, MZM's gallery is mostly Samus in skimpy clothing. With the exception of a couple pictures of her in the Power Suit.

sabata2

2010-09-25 09:06:55 pm

ANKOKU

Then you're saying the endings are non canon, which are reliant on your progression through the game.

See the second argument.

TheMG2

2010-09-25 09:14:33 pm

How can a freaking cardboard cutout be considered canon?

The gallery images shouldn't be called endings per say.

tomatobob

2010-09-25 09:17:04 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Are you seriously arguing that a collection of unrelated images that are separate from the game and have no impact on anything are just as vital to the story as an in game cutscene depicting an outcome of the game? Because that's what it looks like and that's pretty dumb.

sabata2

2010-09-25 09:24:31 pm

ANKOKU

This started as saying that Zero Mission is connected to the Manga (see about a page back), and the argument only came about because Galaxy said that the Images in the gallery of the game are non canon.
Which begs the question "Well then are you going to nitpick which images are canon to suit your argument or are none of the images canon?"

The argument is me basically saying that having none of the images be canon means that none of the cutscenes can be canon, or he's using selective vision to say his argument is right and is therefore actually wrong.

tomatobob

2010-09-25 09:39:20 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from sabata2:

The argument is me basically saying that having none of the images be canon means that none of the cutscenes can be canon, or he's using selective vision to say his argument is right and is therefore actually wrong.

Right but that's stupid. Everything is canon or nothing is is a dumb argument. Ruling out image galleries doesn't rule out cutscenes, if an image appears both in game and in a gallery then it can logically be considered canon, if it only appears in a gallery then it's up to the individual. He's not being nitpicky he's just giving the game precedence over things that are not directly part of the game, which is entirely understandable.

By your ruling here the concept art included with the Prime games is canon because if it isn't nothing in the game is. Wish Dark Samus would make up her mind as to what she looks like, it's getting confusing. Unless you're going to nitpick what images count to suit your argument, that is.

sabata2

Edit history:

sabata2: 2010-09-25 09:47:07 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 09:47:00 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 09:46:00 pm

sabata2: 2010-09-25 09:45:25 pm

2010-09-25 09:45:06 pm

ANKOKU

No, those are also canon. They just never appear in game. (For example, one of the images in Corruption shows like 12 arm canons or something, and 4 versions of the PED Morph Ball.)

Hell, it's said the instruction manuals are canon (or were, I think this applies to the first 2 game's books), but those weren't part of the actual game.
If those are canon, but something that's included IN the game's programing isn't...

Minor reply:
As for Dark Samus, she changes from game to game, and hell, in Echoes even IN GAME. Can't really say DS was never in those forms.

tomatobob

2010-09-25 09:50:13 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Samus is a shapeshifter. Metroid Canon.

sabata2

2010-09-25 09:52:04 pm

ANKOKU

Well she DOES become a really tiny ball..._lol

Hitaka

Edit history:

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 11:53:46 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 11:22:57 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 11:22:43 pm

Hitaka: 2010-09-25 11:20:24 pm

2010-09-25 11:18:47 pm

Phoenix

Disregarding the above stupid argument, taking the gallery images and Ruins Test doodle as canon proves nothing. All they show is Samus with Old Bird and a generic Chozo. There is no tie-in to the events of the manga at all beyond the fact that Samus was raised by Old Bird and Chozo, which was known before the manga came out anyway. The only thing those images do is cement Old Bird himself as a canon character and not just a character from the Super Metroid comic, like Houston or Keeton. But the Ruins Test flashback cutscene did that anyway. For that matter, the gallery images of Samus's youth are originally from the Japanese Fusion, and thus predate the manga.

I will give the manga one thing. The look on Ridley's face after chibi-Samus asks him to be friends is absolutely hilarious.

sabata2

2010-09-26 12:44:04 am

ANKOKU

Umm... The whole "Stupid argument" was just to say that ZM ties in with the Manga.

Which you agreed to.

Quote from Hitaka:

All they show is Samus with Old Bird and a generic Chozo. There is no tie-in to the events of the manga at all beyond the fact that Samus was raised by Old Bird and Chozo, which was known before the manga came out anyway. The only thing those images do is cement Old Bird himself as a canon character and not just a character from the Super Metroid comic, like Houston or Keeton. But the Ruins Test flashback cutscene did that anyway. For that matter, the gallery images of Samus's youth are originally from the Japanese Fusion, and thus predate the manga.

Old Bird wasn't introduced by name till the manga. The simple fact that the game references something that is expanded upon in the manga means that Zero Mission ties in with the manga.

Outside of trying to avoid the depressing Samus from Other M and the Manga I have no idea why everyone is so adamant about avoiding it's canonicity.

Umm... The whole "Stupid argument" was just to say that ZM ties in with the Manga.

Which you agreed to.
[quote="Hitaka"][b]All they show is Samus with Old Bird[/b] and a generic Chozo. There is no tie-in to the events of the manga at all beyond the fact that [b]Samus was raised by Old Bird and Chozo[/b], which was known before the manga came out anyway. [b]The only thing those images do is cement Old Bird himself as a canon character[/b] and not just a character from the Super Metroid comic, like Houston or Keeton. But the Ruins Test flashback cutscene did that anyway. For that matter, the gallery images of Samus's youth are originally from the Japanese Fusion, and thus predate the manga.[/quote]

Old Bird wasn't introduced by name till the manga. The simple fact that the game references something that is expanded upon in the manga means that Zero Mission ties in with the manga.

Outside of trying to avoid the depressing Samus from Other M and the Manga I have no idea why everyone is so adamant about avoiding it's canonicity.

Hitaka

Edit history:

Hitaka: 2010-09-26 01:50:11 am

Hitaka: 2010-09-26 01:49:27 am

Hitaka: 2010-09-26 01:39:57 am

Hitaka: 2010-09-26 01:14:10 am

Hitaka: 2010-09-26 01:09:44 am

Hitaka: 2010-09-26 01:09:00 am

2010-09-26 01:08:32 am

Phoenix

I did not agree to ZM tying into the manga. I agreed that there is one shared character, that's it. Saying that I agreed that ZM ties into the manga because I said they both have Old Bird is like saying they tie in because they both have Samus. No shit they both have him, but that is insufficient to prove a tie in with any event introduced in the manga. And as I said, Old Bird made his first game appearance in the Japanese Fusion endings, which predates the manga, so his appearance in ZM is in fact tying into Fusion. So fuck the manga. Why? Because it's stupid, as I explained earlier.

I have no idea why some people are so adamant that it IS canon, even though it's just a comic, and not a game, like everything else that is Metroid canon. Like tomatobob said, it's glorified fanfiction. Is the Captain N shit canon? Is the Super Metroid comic canon? Fuck yeah, I could go for canon Houston.

But you know what, believe whatever you want. If you want to think the manga is canon, it's no skin off my nose. Go for it. It's not worth arguing over. I'm done.

I did not agree to ZM tying into the manga. I agreed that there is one shared character, that's it. Saying that I agreed that ZM ties into the manga because I said they both have Old Bird is like saying they tie in because they both have Samus. No shit they both have him, but that is insufficient to prove a tie in with any event introduced in the manga. And as I said, Old Bird made his first game appearance in the Japanese Fusion endings, which predates the manga, so his appearance in ZM is in fact tying into Fusion. So fuck the manga. Why? Because it's stupid, as I explained earlier.

I have no idea why some people are so adamant that it IS canon, even though it's just a comic, and not a game, like everything else that is Metroid canon. Like tomatobob said, it's glorified fanfiction. Is the Captain N shit canon? Is the Super Metroid comic canon? Fuck yeah, I could go for canon Houston.

But you know what, believe whatever you want. If you want to think the manga is canon, it's no skin off my nose. Go for it. It's not worth arguing over. I'm done.

TheGreenManalishi

2010-09-26 12:24:40 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

Samus is a shemale. Metroid Canon.

kesvalk

Edit history:

kesvalk: 2010-09-26 01:01:50 pm

2010-09-26 12:57:06 pm

Indie Lover

everything that gets approved by nintendo is canon...

all this discussion about what is and what is not (even more so content inside a game) is really silly...

ShadowMario3

Edit history:

ShadowMario3: 2010-09-26 06:30:44 pm

ShadowMario3: 2010-09-26 06:29:50 pm

ShadowMario3: 2010-09-26 06:29:29 pm

2010-09-26 06:28:39 pm

"Sakamoto directly stated in a recent interview that the Prime games are a part of the timeline. He, nor anyone else, never directly stated the Prime games are not canon."

Edited version (to fix some grammar) of what someone from GameFAQs said about the argument.

UchihaSasuke

2010-09-26 09:22:59 pm

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

gotta chalk it up to bad PR since the whole thing came from one of their PRs with the timeline.

Hitaka

2010-09-26 11:31:33 pm

Phoenix

Maybe Samus didn't view the events of MP3 as working with the feds or following orders because they hired her as a bounty hunter, so they were a client, while in Other M she just happened to bump into Adam who started telling her what to do, and she went along with it willingly and not because she was getting paid.

Pathetic justification attempt #1.

sabata2

2010-09-26 11:36:50 pm

ANKOKU

Well, it would make sense enough for those willing to take any explanation.

Baron Dante

2010-10-12 03:30:46 pm

No, it's actually logical. Besides, she wasn't taking orders from Fed then, atleast not in the same way as in MOM. There, she got info from the Fed and did her own stuff based on them. This can be seen as her taking orders, but also as Fed and Samus as separate entities helping each other (Well, it was Samus that did all grunt work, but anywho)