general gaming topic

2011-12-29 10:55:43 pm

Club 27 Goals

or, Jsnake, it's just the fact that consoles are 6 years old and game developers are lazy so they don't gimp their games enough, so the gpu can't keep up so the game gets really choppy.

this may be a subtle pc-masterrace comment.

J_SNAKE

2011-12-29 11:38:38 pm

There are two entirely different reasons for a choppy picture. The one is a performance-problem. The second is a syncronisation-problem with the screen-refresh.

Ntsc

Edit history:

Ntsc: 2011-12-30 01:57:21 am

Ntsc: 2011-12-30 01:41:43 am

2011-12-30 01:40:09 am

Quote from J_SNAKE:

The second is a syncronisation-problem with the screen-refresh.

This was an issue like 10 years ago and is practically non-existant today if developers sync with vertical refresh (SwapChain.Present(1, PresentFlags.None) for Direct3D 10+, OpenGL has equiv). Not to mention that modern video cards will commonly store more than a single frame from Present() if the GPU can't keep up and sync with the screen refresh. This is oddly called pre-rendering, it is an option available under 3D settings in the NVidia control panel for modern cards with detailed explanation.

The combination of the two make screen refresh almost never a cause of lag/jitter. Nearly every time a modern game is jittery or lagging it is a performance issue or timing issue not a screen sync issue.

Anyway I blame crappy hardware more than developers. Intel has an interesting white paper on dynamic backbuffer resolution which means that a game can render at a consistent 60fps and get blurrier when more objects are on the screen instead of choppier. It doesn't scale the same so the game would theoretically become less blurry than it would be choppy if you get my drift. I'm sure we'll see this as a solution in both console and pc games soon.

[quote="J_SNAKE"]The second is a syncronisation-problem with the screen-refresh. 
[/quote]

This was an issue like 10 years ago and is practically non-existant today if developers sync with vertical refresh (SwapChain.Present(1, PresentFlags.None) for Direct3D 10+, OpenGL has equiv). Not to mention that modern video cards will commonly store more than a single frame from Present() if the GPU can't keep up and sync with the screen refresh. This is oddly called pre-rendering, it is an option available under 3D settings in the NVidia control panel for modern cards with detailed explanation.

The combination of the two make screen refresh almost never a cause of lag/jitter. Nearly every time a modern game is jittery or lagging it is a performance issue or timing issue not a screen sync issue.

Anyway I blame crappy hardware more than developers. Intel has an [url=http://software.intel.com/file/35451]interesting white paper[/url] on dynamic backbuffer resolution which means that a game can render at a consistent 60fps and get blurrier when more objects are on the screen instead of choppier. It doesn't scale the same so the game would theoretically become less blurry than it would be choppy if you get my drift. I'm sure we'll see this as a solution in both console and pc games soon.

Poision Envy

2011-12-30 02:27:02 am

Club 27 Goals

huh, that would be pretty neat actually. One problem I've had is when playing a fast FPS with a really choppy framerate (20-35 FPS) I'll start getting headaches. Much quicker if the FPS is lower. Just having it blur instead would be interesting to try.

but intel is cpu anyway so... would that really matter with how gpu-dependent games are?

Quietus

2011-12-30 05:34:29 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

So, if the FPS FPS is sick, you're good, but if the FPS FPS is poor, you're sick. Razz

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2011-12-30 09:39:16 am

J_SNAKE: 2011-12-30 09:10:32 am

J_SNAKE: 2011-12-30 08:58:39 am

J_SNAKE: 2011-12-30 08:57:41 am

J_SNAKE: 2011-12-30 08:56:10 am

J_SNAKE: 2011-12-30 08:55:17 am

2011-12-30 08:51:24 am

Quote from Ntsc:

This was an issue like 10 years ago and is practically non-existant today if developers sync with vertical refresh .

The other way round: In the past sync issues were not a problem because consoles did what you are suggesting. Today fixed game-loops are done differently (they are really keeping the rate no matter what screen you have) because they cannot expect everyone has a 60hz-sreen. In case you have any doubts: Just try to run your suggestion on screens with different hz. You will see a difference in game-speed.

What you are talking about is called: variable time-step + vsync:

This method has no sync-problems and most pc-shooters and most games overall are using it. However it has its cons. You will have to manually scale calculations to maintain the same game-speed, resulting in inconsistent quality of your game-mechanics. The same input-sequence won't produce exactly the same outcome in general. This was even an noticeable issue in the highly competitive quake3-scene where on some systems you could do certain tight actions others could not. For shooters it may be tolerable, but if you want a highly competitive fighter then locked fps is the way to go.

In case you are interested, TrapThem will run at locked 60 fps, because I want to maintain consistent frame-perfect gaming-quality. But it will look smooth like butter because I am interpolating correctly(no fake blur) between the frames, no matter what screen you have. Notice that I don't touch the game-logic at all here, only the visual out-put is interpolated. This approach is called: interpolated fixed timestep.

[quote="Ntsc"]This was an issue like 10 years ago and is practically non-existant today if developers sync with vertical refresh .[/quote] The other way round: In the past sync issues were not a problem because consoles did what you are suggesting. Today fixed game-loops are done differently (they are really keeping the rate no matter what screen you have) because they cannot expect everyone has a 60hz-sreen. In case you have any doubts: Just try to run your suggestion on screens with different hz. You will see a difference in game-speed.

What you are talking about is called: variable time-step + vsync:

This method has no sync-problems and most pc-shooters and most games overall are using it. However it has its cons. You will have to manually scale calculations to maintain the same game-speed, resulting in inconsistent quality of your game-mechanics. The same input-sequence won't produce exactly the same outcome in general. This was even an noticeable issue in the highly competitive quake3-scene where on some systems you could do certain tight actions others could not. For shooters it may be tolerable, but if you want a highly competitive fighter then locked fps is the way to go.

In case you are interested, TrapThem will run at locked 60 fps, because I want to maintain consistent frame-perfect gaming-quality. But it will look smooth like butter because I am interpolating correctly(no fake blur) between the frames, no matter what screen you have. Notice that I don't touch the game-logic at all here, only the visual out-put is interpolated. This approach is called: interpolated fixed timestep.

ryu

Edit history:

ryu: 2011-12-30 12:48:41 pm

2011-12-30 12:48:27 pm

does anyone here use multiple psn accounts (from different regions) on a single ps3?

TheGreenManalishi

2011-12-30 01:53:31 pm

I have a US one to get any free stuff or demos which don't come out here.

ryu

2011-12-30 03:19:52 pm

can you use multiple accounts on one user? like, switch them back and forth? or do i have to make separate users for separate psn accounts?

TheGreenManalishi

2011-12-30 03:47:14 pm

Well I tied the US account to a different user profile but I can't think of any reason why logging in and out on the same profile would be a problem.

ryu

Edit history:

ryu: 2011-12-30 04:28:37 pm

2011-12-30 04:28:16 pm

guess i'll just have to try it out to see how it exactly things work.

i'm thinking of maybe getting one of the uncharted games sometime. which one did you guys like best?

J_SNAKE

2011-12-30 04:30:40 pm

Uncharted 2 is the best of them.

arkarian

2011-12-30 04:30:47 pm

red chamber dream

the first one is my favorite, but i loved all three. i recommend playing them all really, because you'll want to get to know the characters. starting among thieves without having played drake's fortune would be a damn shame in terms of enjoying the story, which is a big part of the games.

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2011-12-30 04:32:36 pm

2011-12-30 04:32:13 pm

red chamber dream

i'd also recommend playing the first on easy, even the first time through. the enemies in that game take so much damage (and there's a ton of combat) that it can get kind of annoying to play. playing on easy doesn't make it any easier and isn't being "cheap", it just makes the enemies die faster so you can keep moving.

actually, play them all on easy. they're way more enjoyable that way.

Turtle

2011-12-30 04:34:37 pm

I like turtles.

I wish my pride would allow me to do that, but any game I play I always start on the hardest possible difficulty. Playing Skyrim on Master difficulty right now, in fact.

Replays are fair game for lower difficulties, though, after I've proven to myself I can take the hardest a title has to offer.

arkarian

2011-12-30 04:36:48 pm

red chamber dream

hardest possible? damn, i always just play games on normal. never had any interest in playing games on harder difficulties unless i really love the game and there's rewards (so ... basically just resident evil 4). dying repeatedly and taking way longer to play a game than necessary isn't fun for me.

ryu

2011-12-30 04:46:14 pm

guess i'll just start off with the first game then, and get 2 if i liked the first. thanks for letting me know playing on easy is best.

arkarian

2011-12-30 04:49:16 pm

red chamber dream

yeah i mean, definitely try it on normal too and decide what you like better, but i think you'll see what i mean. uncharted enemies are just total bullet sponges for no good reason, and there's a ton of them (in the first game especially).

also be aware that pretty much everyone thinks the second game is vastly superior to the first, so even if you don't love drake's fortune, you might want to try among thieves anyway. the gameplay is pretty much the same though, it's just bigger and more "cinematic".

Poision Envy

2011-12-30 04:50:24 pm

Club 27 Goals

Quote from arkarian:

in terms of enjoying the story, which is a big part of the games.

Sounds like the kind of game I wouldn't care about in the slightest.

arkarian

2011-12-30 04:51:19 pm

red chamber dream

do you like movies? the non-combat sections are like those, except you get to press buttons sometimes.

ryu

2011-12-30 04:51:35 pm

sounds like i'd like the second one less then. when the gameplay is the same it would pretty much boil down on level design for me.

i don't think i'd like it better on normal. forced shoot-outs really annoy me.

arkarian

2011-12-30 04:53:06 pm

red chamber dream

i like the second better in terms of cutscenes, plot, setpieces, blah blah blah, it's just that the first has a really cool mechanic near the end that totally changes the way you play the game and it's fucking awesome. also just really like the cohesiveness of the environment (it pretty much all takes place on a jungle island, one of my favorite game settings) as opposed to the second game, which is all over the place.

J_SNAKE

2011-12-30 05:41:31 pm

I honestly think God of War 3 will suit you better, ryu. It is a better arcade game.

If one compares Uncharted with a movie then I really don't know why they watch it, perhaps they never heard of real movies.

Poision Envy

2011-12-30 05:43:05 pm

Club 27 Goals

Quote from arkarian:

do you like movies? the non-combat sections are like those, except you get to press buttons sometimes.

in all of 2011 I think I watched 6 movies. 4 of those were watched in the last 2 weeks.

arkarian

2011-12-30 05:45:28 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from J_SNAKE:

If one compares Uncharted with a movie then I really don't know why they watch it, perhaps they never heard of real movies.

clementines are like oranges so why would anyone eat them? they're not oranges.

bayonetta is like god of war so why would anyone play it? maybe they haven't heard of god of war.