general gaming topic

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2012-08-14 03:22:15 pm

J_SNAKE: 2012-08-14 03:21:45 pm

2012-08-14 02:59:17 pm

Quote from Poision Envy:

Quote from J_SNAKE:

Variable fps will mess up the game-mechanics.

How?

The fundamental problem are numerics and the fact that a computer doesn't process continuously,
but only in discrete intervalls. Imagine you want a higher fps, but you still expect the same game-speed.
How is that achieved? By scaling all the movement in your game according to the elapsed time between those intervalls,
and they cannot be constant in general (otherwise they would be fixed, right?), they can even vary from frame to frame
on the same machine. What technically constantly happens are multiplications with varying values. But they are not exact
and do accumulate rounding errors over and over. That can cause a noticeably different outcome during gameplay than expected from time
to time, especially in borderline situations. Another possible thing for example is that an action is supposed to be executed
after 70,6 frames if it is supposed to be fair. But there is no such thing, it has to be executed
either in frame 70 or 71, depending on implementation.

An often error of reasoning even amongst some developers is
to think that I am worrying about insignificant details. However it is not the case once you start realising
you face many borderline-situations, especially in games with a sportive layer. The outcome of borderline-situations is
what makes the weighty difference, and it is absurd to think it is insignificant.
With that attitude my game would not be perfectly relyable and glitchy. Games have to be perfect
by principle, it is what everyone should aim for, if he can afford it.

It can be mentioned that a fighter is more prone to this problem than a first person shooter. That is why you often see shooters with variable fps.
The main reason to go with variable fps is simply performance: it is less prone to bottlenecks because it scales to the hardware. But you are sacrificing sportive gaming-quality. If the application is rather a simulation or emotional experience than a game then it is ok.

[quote="Poision Envy"][quote="J_SNAKE"]Variable fps will mess up the game-mechanics.[/quote]
How?[/quote] The fundamental problem are numerics and the fact that a computer doesn't process continuously, 
but only in discrete intervalls. Imagine you want a higher fps, but you still expect the same game-speed.
How is that achieved? By scaling all the movement in your game according to the elapsed time between those intervalls, 
and they cannot be constant in general (otherwise they would be fixed, right?), they can even vary from frame to frame
on the same machine. What technically constantly happens are multiplications with varying values. But they are not exact
and do accumulate rounding errors over and over. That can cause a noticeably different outcome during gameplay than expected from time 
to time, especially in borderline situations. Another possible thing for example is that an action is supposed to be executed 
after 70,6 frames if it is supposed to be fair. But there is no such thing, it has to be executed
either in frame 70 or 71, depending on implementation.

An often error of reasoning even amongst some developers is
to think that I am worrying about insignificant details. However it is not the case once you start realising
you face many borderline-situations, especially in games with a sportive layer. The outcome of borderline-situations is 
what makes the weighty difference, and it is absurd to think it is insignificant. 
With that attitude my game would not be perfectly relyable and glitchy. Games have to be perfect
by principle, it is what everyone should aim for, if he can afford it.

It can be mentioned that a fighter is more prone to this problem than a first person shooter. That is why you often see shooters with variable fps.
The main reason to go with variable fps is simply performance: it is less prone to bottlenecks because it scales to the hardware. But you are sacrificing sportive gaming-quality. If the application is rather a simulation or emotional experience than a game then it is ok.

Poision Envy

2012-08-14 05:00:17 pm

Club 27 Goals

pretty sure faster fps = faster animations hasn't been around since like, the snes days. If you have a game running at 20FPS, 30FPS, 60FPS, and 120FPS, the amount of time it takes to say, swing a sword or reload a gun, will take the exact same amount of time. The only difference is how fluid it will be.

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2012-08-14 05:16:50 pm

2012-08-14 05:16:30 pm

red chamber dream

i don't think (although it's impossible to be sure) jsnake was saying anything to the contrary. he explains how keeping animations the same speed is done in the first paragraph. what he's saying seems to make sense, i just don't think it matters enough for anyone except anal-retentive videophiles to give a shit.

Poision Envy

2012-08-14 06:21:52 pm

Club 27 Goals

well in that case, what he's saying doesn't relate to "Game mechanics" at all.

arkarian

2012-08-14 06:36:06 pm

red chamber dream

yeah don't get me wrong, he's fucking nuts

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2012-08-14 06:54:32 pm

J_SNAKE: 2012-08-14 06:54:04 pm

2012-08-14 06:51:58 pm

Quote from Poision Envy:

pretty sure faster fps = faster animations hasn't been around since like, the snes days. If you have a game running at 20FPS, 30FPS, 60FPS, and 120FPS, the amount of time it takes to say, swing a sword or reload a gun, will take the exact same amount of time. The only difference is how fluid it will be.

The game will appear smoother with higher fps if the programmer accounts for it.

But the main assumption is wrong: It cannot take the exact same amount of time in general, only if you have luck
and the numbers match well. It will slightly fluctuate between frames. To understand that you have to think about
the consequences of finite number representation and discrete processing intervalls. That is something you won't notice
until you take advantage of borderline situations. That was an issue in the competitive quake scene for example.
On certain hardware you could reach a certain platform with a borderline jump and take advantage of it, on other hardware
you could not. That is the illness of variable fps. In general the following rule of thumb applies in games: the higher the fps the faster rounding errrors accumulate.

[quote="Poision Envy"]pretty sure faster fps = faster animations hasn't been around since like, the snes days. If you have a game running at 20FPS, 30FPS, 60FPS, and 120FPS, the amount of time it takes to say, swing a sword or reload a gun, will take the exact same amount of time. The only difference is how fluid it will be.[/quote] The game will appear smoother with higher fps if the programmer accounts for it.

But the main assumption is wrong: It cannot take the exact same amount of time in general, only if you have luck 
and the numbers match well. It will slightly fluctuate between frames. To understand that you have to think about 
the consequences of finite number representation and discrete processing intervalls. That is something you won't notice
until you take advantage of borderline situations. That was an issue in the competitive quake scene for example.
On certain hardware you could reach a certain platform with a borderline jump and take advantage of it, on other hardware
you could not. That is the illness of variable fps. In general the following rule of thumb applies in games: the higher the fps the faster rounding errrors accumulate.

arkarian

2012-08-14 06:55:07 pm

red chamber dream

maybe it's because i'm a console-loving shmuck but i don't see anything wrong with 60 fps ... don't need anything beyond that

J_SNAKE

2012-08-14 06:58:56 pm

My approach to games is to go with fixed 60 fps and interpolate only the visuals between frames, the game-logic remains untouched. It means if you have a 120hz screen it will look like a 120 hz game, if your hardware can keep up rendering that fast.

J_SNAKE

Edit history:

J_SNAKE: 2012-08-15 08:52:38 am

2012-08-15 08:52:21 am

To give a concrete example towards game-mechanics:

Imagine you run the same shooter at 30 fps and then at 100fps, like many shooters offer.
If you make a jump then the 30 fps-version will be slightly higher because it is adding the same linear motion over a
longer intervall before the rising-speed gets decreased, and it accumulates round-down errors less frequently in addition.

It means if you fine-tune your game at 60 fps and use the variable-fps-approach you cannot guarantee all the players
will get the exact same roaming space. One could find a spot where he can jump and tightly reach a platform,
where at the same time a player with higher fps cannot. And vice versa there are certain actions a 100fps-player
can do a 30fps player cannot.

You might understand my philosophy better towards such things if you consider a chess-game. You expect the players
to follow the exact fixed rule-set, you don't expect the horse to jump 4 units instead of 3 from time to time.
What shall vary in games are scenarios and decisions but not the rule-set.

To give a concrete example towards game-mechanics:

Imagine you run the same shooter at 30 fps and then at 100fps, like many shooters offer. 
If you make a jump then the 30 fps-version will be slightly higher because it is adding the same linear motion over a 
longer intervall before the rising-speed gets decreased, and it accumulates round-down errors less frequently in addition.

It means if you fine-tune your game at 60 fps and use the variable-fps-approach you cannot guarantee all the players 
will get the exact same roaming space. One could find a spot where he can jump and tightly reach a platform, 
where at the same time a player with higher fps cannot. And vice versa there are certain actions a 100fps-player 
can do a 30fps player cannot.

You might understand my philosophy better towards such things if you consider a chess-game. You expect the players
to follow the exact fixed rule-set, you don't expect the horse to jump 4 units instead of 3 from time to time.
What shall vary in games are scenarios and decisions but not the rule-set.

Poision Envy

2012-08-19 06:00:40 pm

Club 27 Goals

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/17/assassins-creed-3-creative-director-calls-many-japanese-games-gibberish/

>"You want my real answer? I think there’s a subtle racism in the business, especially on the journalists’ side, where Japanese developers are forgiven for doing what they do. I think it’s condescending to do this."
>"Yeah. Just think about how many Japanese games are released where their stories are literally gibberish. Literally gibberish. There’s no way you could write it with a straight face, and the journalists say ‘oh it is brilliant’."

He's got a pretty good point. There isn't nearly as much hate on mario for being literally the exact same platformer every year, and people eat that shit up as well. But then CoD gets an endless amount for being rehash garbage etc. This also includes the MGS, Final Fantasy, etc games.

tomatobob

2012-08-19 06:14:49 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote:

So I told the team, if you need to cut half the moves in Assassin's Creed 3 then do it. And I wanted to get rid of the pointless things, like, why are we locking onto targets during combat?

Oh thank god, finally.

Cpadolf

Edit history:

Cpadolf: 2012-08-19 06:15:14 pm

2012-08-19 06:14:54 pm

Almost happy

Quote from Poision Envy:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/17/assassins-creed-3-creative-director-calls-many-japanese-games-gibberish/

>"You want my real answer? I think there’s a subtle racism in the business, especially on the journalists’ side, where Japanese developers are forgiven for doing what they do. I think it’s condescending to do this."
>"Yeah. Just think about how many Japanese games are released where their stories are literally gibberish. Literally gibberish. There’s no way you could write it with a straight face, and the journalists say ‘oh it is brilliant’."

He's got a pretty good point. There isn't nearly as much hate on mario for being literally the exact same platformer every year, and people eat that shit up as well. But then CoD gets an endless amount for being rehash garbage etc. This also includes the MGS, Final Fantasy, etc games.

Eh, it just comes down to what you like, because you won't complain as much about something you actually like. On a lot of game forums there are more people liking Mario than CoD, so you hear more people whine about CoD, but I also know forums where people shit on Mario games way more than CoD. I think the fact that the games are from Japan only makes a difference for a pretty small group of people who jack off to anything that comes from there.

[quote="Poision Envy"]http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/17/assassins-creed-3-creative-director-calls-many-japanese-games-gibberish/

>"You want my real answer? I think there’s a subtle racism in the business, especially on the journalists’ side, where Japanese developers are forgiven for doing what they do. I think it’s condescending to do this."
>"Yeah. Just think about how many Japanese games are released where their stories are literally gibberish. Literally gibberish. There’s no way you could write it with a straight face, and the journalists say ‘oh it is brilliant’."

He's got a pretty good point. There isn't nearly as much hate on mario for being literally the exact same platformer every year, and people eat that shit up as well. But then CoD gets an endless amount for being rehash garbage etc. This also includes the MGS, Final Fantasy, etc games.[/quote]

Eh, it just comes down to what you like, because you won't complain as much about something you actually like. On a lot of game forums there are more people liking Mario than CoD, so you hear more people whine about CoD, but I also know forums where people shit on Mario games way more than CoD. I think the fact that the games are from Japan only makes a difference for a pretty small group of people who jack off to anything that comes from there.

Cpadolf

Edit history:

Cpadolf: 2012-08-19 06:17:18 pm

2012-08-19 06:16:48 pm

Almost happy

Actually I think the company the game comes from makes a bigger difference than what county it's from, because people love hating on games from "big evil corporations" like EA and Activision.

tomatobob

2012-08-19 06:21:42 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Poision Envy:

But then CoD gets an endless amount for being rehash garbage etc. This also includes the MGS, Final Fantasy, etc games.

CoD gets some of it for being one of a billion modern military FPSes too, though. It's generic stacked on more generic.

I do agree with his larger point about journalists jizzing all over shit like Final Fantasy and MGS though, more because games journalism is a farce than any other reason. The Forbes guy is an idiot and wrong about it being purely cultural differences, sometimes the story is just shit. Often the story is just shit.

Idkbutlike2

2012-08-19 07:22:08 pm

Quote from Cpadolf:

Actually I think the company the game comes from makes a bigger difference than what county it's from, because people love hating on games from "big evil corporations" like EA and Activision.

For CoD, I think that makes the most sense.

tomatobob

2012-08-19 07:36:34 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

You guys, he's not talking about the quality or type of game on the whole here. He's talking about the stories and the media response, not the general message board idiot response.

Idkbutlike2

2012-08-19 07:38:25 pm

The last sentence of your previous post sums up that issue.

tomatobob

2012-08-19 07:43:46 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Well I was talking about how the Forbes guy giving his dumb uninformed opinion was dumb in that sentence, not the Asscreed guy and PEnvy's point.

tomatobob

2012-08-19 07:44:50 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

I mean if you want to equate game journalists with message board idiots that's cool, I'm totally on board with that.

Idkbutlike2

2012-08-19 07:58:30 pm

Quote from tomatobob:

You guys, he's not talking about the quality or type of game on the whole here. He's talking about the stories and the media response, not the general message board idiot response.

I dunno... I guess the media, for whatever reason, expects western games to inherently have less bullshit plots than Japanese games?

tomatobob

2012-08-19 08:04:18 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Pretty sure they're just more comfortable coming down hard on a western game because they understand the language and are total experts at it cause it's their job and they might be racist if they don't like a Japanese plot!

Alternatively they grew up on the more Japanese market from back in the day and nostalgia blocks their ability to tell when it's just bullshit because it's just like how I remember Final Fantasy VI!

Or they are just nerdy ass japanophiles like most gamer tards and Glorious Nippon would never put out a shitty product!

Idkbutlike2

2012-08-19 08:11:36 pm

Heh, the subject of nostalgia opens a whole new can of worms.

arkarian

2012-08-19 08:12:18 pm

red chamber dream

the forbes guy is a retard. assassin's creed's story makes perfect sense. there's nothing "weird" about it (besides some of the as-yet unresolved plot points). it's nothing close to the total hogwash you find in tons of japanese games. hell, even ffxii which went for a more realistic story still made next to no sense. granted, maybe lots of stuff gets lost in translation, but that doesn't explain the occasional jap game with a good story.

you just don't see this in western games. you just don't.

Idkbutlike2

2012-08-19 08:16:13 pm

Haha. The most pro-AssCreed post.

tomatobob

2012-08-19 08:17:39 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

See the thing with translation is, even if the wording gets all engrished up stories are universal. There's a basic structure that everyone gets, if the story you're telling is any good people will find the good in it even if it doesn't make as much sense as it would in it's native language.

Like Tales of Symphonia had just had some straight up bad dialogue and weird shit but the story actually isn't bad at all if you're paying attention and actually trying to follow it. Then you look at your typical Final Fantasy and it's just what the hell was the point of any of that?