Game Over: Where to Go From Here (MAJOR SPOILERS)

2004-11-19 08:40:27 pm

I finished the game earlier today, and I came away very impressed with the final result. Somewhere in the middle of my adventure, I noticed how the game made me think of Super: The same feeling of exploration and wonder as I was playing was like the older games for me.

But enough about that...

This topic is for those who have actually completed the game. Anyone who has not, I warn now: STAY CLEAR OF THIS THREAD

Now that that's out of the way...

All of the following are some important observations that I made during my first run through the game: Anything that you guys think is important, but missing from here, you can add.

* Items needed to complete the game:

- Missile Launcher
- Bombs
- Space Jump
- Dark Beam (Need for doors)
- Light Beam (Need for doors)
- Dark Suit
- Boost Ball
- Super Missile (Need for doors)
- Seeker Launcher (Need for doors)
- Gravity Boost
- Grapple Beam
- Dark Visor
- Spider Ball
- Power Bomb (Need for doors)
- Echo Visor
- Screw Attack
- Annihilatior Beam (Need for doors)
- Light Suit

So that comes out to: 18 Items Needed (At current time)

These don't count against Item Percentage (I think)

- 9 Temple Keys
- 9 Sky Temple Keys

* Dark Samus

- You fight her 3 times throughout the game:
* Agon Wasteland (For Dark Beam)
* Sanctuary Fortress (For Echo Visor)
* Final Battle in Game
* As far as I can tell, Dark Samus is Metroid Prime: From scanning her during these various encounters, you learn that she has your genetic makeup, a version of the Varia Suit, and she uses many of your abilities (The game itself never reveals the truth however.)

* The ending has Samus in her Zero Mission oufit (Suitless), and she looks at the camera for a moment before the ship takes off (However, this was with 86% of the items, so...)

* Keybearer Lore:

- I noticed that the rooms that you scan the Luminoth in are the opposites of where the actual Sky Temple Key is located (Makes sense) This is just a reminder since that makes it easier to locate the 9 keys.

And Finally... INFO ON SEQUENCE BREAKING

From what I can tell, it will be A LOT harder to SB in Echoes. The main bosses cannot be skipped, you need to go from Agon, to Torvus, to the Fortress IN ORDER, and some of the areas are blocked off by "Runes" that can't be read until you get the Translation for them. To top it off, the fact that you need many types of weaponry and items to get past most of the doors kind of hinders the efforts...

- On a final note:

It seems that all of the Sequence Breaks/Tricks that were found in the demo are USELESS: Either the area you can get to is blocked by a door requiring a higher weapon than you have, or the object that was needed to climb on you can't stand on top of (The Crystals and the webbing at the beginning for example: Can still get on those strange Ing Plant things I think)

Whew: I think that's my longest post ever...

Anything else you guys come up with, you can put it here. Either way, at this current time I have the feeling that low percent runs/ 100 % runs (If we can get all of them) and fastest times are the best we can get. But hey, wasn't the same said about Prime? (I wouldn't know: I wasn't here until LONG after that was released.)

Thread title:

I finished the game earlier today, and I came away very impressed with the final result. Somewhere in the middle of my adventure, I noticed how the game made me think of Super: The same feeling of exploration and wonder as I was playing was like the older games for me.

But enough about that...

This topic is for those who have actually completed the game. Anyone who has not, I warn now: STAY CLEAR OF THIS THREAD

Now that that's out of the way...

[spoiler]
All of the following are some important observations that I made during my first run through the game: Anything that you guys think is important, but missing from here, you can add.

* Items needed to complete the game:
 
 - Missile Launcher
 - Bombs
 - Space Jump
 - Dark Beam (Need for doors)
 - Light Beam (Need for doors)
 - Dark Suit
 - Boost Ball
 - Super Missile (Need for doors)
 - Seeker Launcher (Need for doors)
 - Gravity Boost
 - Grapple Beam
 - Dark Visor
 - Spider Ball
 - Power Bomb (Need for doors)
 - Echo Visor
 - Screw Attack
 - Annihilatior Beam (Need for doors)
 - Light Suit

So that comes out to: 18 Items Needed (At current time)

These don't count against Item Percentage (I think)

- 9 Temple Keys
 - 9 Sky Temple Keys

* Dark Samus

- You fight her 3 times throughout the game:
    * Agon Wasteland (For Dark Beam)
    * Sanctuary Fortress (For Echo Visor)
    * Final Battle in Game
* As far as I can tell, Dark Samus is Metroid Prime: From scanning her during these various encounters, you learn that she has your genetic makeup, a version of the Varia Suit, and she uses many of your abilities  (The game itself never reveals the truth however.)

* The ending has Samus in her Zero Mission oufit (Suitless), and she looks at the camera for a moment before the ship takes off (However, this was with 86% of the items, so...)

* Keybearer Lore:

- I noticed that the rooms that you scan the Luminoth in are the opposites of where the actual Sky Temple Key is located (Makes sense) This is just a reminder since that makes it easier to locate the 9 keys.
[/spoiler]

And Finally... INFO ON SEQUENCE BREAKING
[spoiler]
From what I can tell, it will be A LOT harder to SB in Echoes. The main bosses cannot be skipped, you need to go from Agon, to Torvus, to the Fortress IN ORDER, and some of the areas are blocked off by "Runes" that can't be read until you get the Translation for them. To top it off, the fact that you need many types of weaponry and items to get past most of the doors kind of hinders the efforts...

- On a final note:

It seems that all of the Sequence Breaks/Tricks that were found in the demo are USELESS: Either the area you can get to is blocked by a door requiring a higher weapon than you have, or the object that was needed to climb on you can't stand on top of (The Crystals and the webbing at the beginning for example: Can still get on those strange Ing Plant things I think) [/spoiler]

Whew: I think that's my longest post ever...

Anything else you guys come up with, you can put it here. Either way, at this current time I have the feeling that low percent runs/ 100 % runs (If we can get all of them) and fastest times are the best we can get. But hey, wasn't the same said about Prime? (I wouldn't know: I wasn't here until LONG after that was released.)

Ekarderif

2004-11-19 08:47:24 pm

Optional item that may be required: (I couldn't figure out how to not use it)

Sunburst. There is one key that was blocked off by drones of some sort. Their scans said that they are invulnerable to weapon fire and moves only when exposed to bright light. I tried the Light Beam, charged Light, as well as the Annihilator Beam but none worked. I managed to finally get him moving using the Sunburst. I'm not sure if I'm just stupid or if it is indeed necessary. I hope it's the former (funny how you wish you're stupid :P).

Edit: I got the Beam Ammo Expansion before any of the Beams. Sequence breaking is not useless, just hindered.

GreenMamba

2004-11-19 09:01:44 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

Actually, those drone things have a safe zone light beacon right above them. Shoot it to activate the safe zone, and they'll move.

I've beaten the game as well. Was anyone else freaked by Dark Samus's form in the last battle? Scared the fuck out of me. Since when did Metroid Prime have a third eye?

Ekarderif

2004-11-19 09:08:38 pm

Quote from GreenMamba:

Actually, those drone things have a safe zone light beacon right above them. Shoot it to activate the safe zone, and they'll move.

I've beaten the game as well. Was anyone else freaked by Dark Samus's form in the last battle? Scared the flickerbat out of me. Since when did Metroid Prime have a third eye?

It was the eye thing in the original Metroid Prime 100% ending. I'm hoping the 100% in this game will finally explain Dark Samus, instead of her making cameos repeatedly (not that the cameos aren't awesome). Loved the last battles.

Prime Hunter

2004-11-19 09:20:13 pm

Quote from Ekarderif:

Edit: I got the Beam Ammo Expansion before any of the Beams. Sequence breaking is not useless, just hindered.

Let me clarify what I meant:

The sequence breaks and tricks that were found in the demo appear to not have any value in the final game. Either they lead to places that you can't access at that time, or they're just plain impossible.

Nice work on getting there though, Ekarderif: I couldn't manage to get onto the platforms with the cannons, so I couldn't check this for myself :(

Quote from GreenMamba:

I've beaten the game as well. Was anyone else freaked by Dark Samus's form in the last battle? Scared the flickerbat out of me. Since when did Metroid Prime have a third eye?

I think he meant the third acutal eye on her head: I noticed the one on her hand as she attempted to grab onto you after the battle.

Either way, I have this strange feeling that we haven't seen the end of Dark Samus and Metroid Prime...

(Hey, they're making a third Prime game right? [Can't remember exactly where I heard this: But it was in another topic somewhere in the forums])

[quote="Ekarderif"]Edit: I got the Beam Ammo Expansion before any of the Beams. Sequence breaking is [i]not[/i] useless, just hindered.[/quote]

Let me clarify what I meant:

The sequence breaks and tricks that were found in the demo appear to not have any value in the final game. Either they lead to places that you can't access at that time, or they're just plain impossible.

Nice work on getting there though, Ekarderif: I couldn't manage to get onto the platforms with the cannons, so I couldn't check this for myself :(

[quote="GreenMamba"]
[spoiler]
I've beaten the game as well. Was anyone else freaked by Dark Samus's form in the last battle? Scared the flickerbat out of me. Since when did Metroid Prime have a third eye?[/spoiler][/quote]

[spoiler]I think he meant the third acutal eye on her head: I noticed the one on her hand as she attempted to grab onto you after the battle.

Either way, I have this strange feeling that we haven't seen the end of Dark Samus and Metroid Prime...

(Hey, they're making a third Prime game right? [Can't remember exactly where I heard this: But it was in another topic somewhere in the forums])[/spoiler]

arkarian

2004-11-19 10:14:43 pm

red chamber dream

I heard there will be at least two more Prime games. But I highly doubt they will both be for the 'Cube. Maybe one will be. Maybe.

Also,

I hate how Retro took the cheap way out, by making it impossible to able to SB items such as Power Bombs, Super Missiles, and Seeker Missiles, just by making them necessary to open doors. I'm betting that this is the only reason they made the new door-looks. They should have not made the new locks, and actually thought about how to make the game unbreakable.

And a final thought on sequence breaking:

Why does Retro want to make the game impossible to SB? I mean, don't they see that a lot of the reason we like it so much is that we can SB the games? It's what makes it Metroid, after all.

Hater

2004-11-19 11:21:21 pm

Keep in mind that as much as you are the SB kings of the Metroid line-up, give it some time. I imagine even the now most used Prime1 SB tools weren't found until a little later in the game. Prime2 has been out only for a few days. Give it some time and things will develop.

Keep your heads up. :)

GreenMamba

2004-11-19 11:30:19 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

Prime Hunter's right. I was talking about the third eye on her head. Scared the fuck out of me.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure this isn't the last we'll see of Dark Samus. How would you kill it, anyways? Every time Samus beats her, she just explodes into her million particles, then reforms herself somewhere else...

Solr_Flare

2004-11-20 02:22:27 am

Regarding the dark suit. I dunno, it might be possible to skip it. But if you do, you would *have* to get every energy tank you could manage. Resulting in a higher percent, but a skipped item.

I have not yet beaten the game yet, but I read a review where the reviewer said they never once got the screw attack, so I believe that as well as the combos is most likely skippable.

Which would put the probable skippable list at:

Option A:

All missile, ammo, etank expansions
All 3 beam combos
screw attack

Option B:

Dark Suit
All missile/ammo expansions
3 beam combos
screw attack
but must collect e-tanks

Some initial discussion in chat also suggested that if a reliable way to rapid fire missiles is found, it might be possible to at least skip for awhile the seeker missile upgrade and open some of the purple doors early. The placement of some of the seeker locks seems to suggest that avoiding the seeker upgrade entirely is probably impossible. But it might let us access areas sooner.

Likewise, the 3bj in echoes is incredibly effective. I don't know if skipping the SJ outright would be possible, as there are a lot of distance jumps you probably need it for. But its a slim possibility.

Beyond that, I can't see how any item could be skipped. Perhaps the grapple if the screw attack is avoidable and alternate routes can be found for the other places you need it. (you can already get the Torvus key that "requires" it without ever getting grapple).

Regarding the dark suit.  I dunno, it might be possible to skip it.  But if you do, you would *have* to get every energy tank you could manage.  Resulting in a higher percent, but a skipped item.

[spoiler]
I have not yet beaten the game yet, but I read a review where the reviewer said they never once got the screw attack, so I believe that as well as the combos is most likely skippable.

Which would put the probable skippable list at:

Option A:

All missile, ammo, etank expansions
All 3 beam combos
screw attack

Option B:

Dark Suit
All missile/ammo expansions
3 beam combos
screw attack
but must collect e-tanks

Some initial discussion in chat also suggested that if a reliable way to rapid fire missiles is found, it might be possible to at least skip for awhile the seeker missile upgrade and open some of the purple doors early.  The placement of some of the seeker locks seems to suggest that avoiding the seeker upgrade entirely is probably impossible.  But it might let us access areas sooner.

Likewise, the 3bj in echoes is incredibly effective.  I don't know if skipping the SJ outright would be possible, as there are a lot of distance jumps you probably need it for.  But its a slim possibility.

Beyond that, I can't see how any item could be skipped.  Perhaps the grapple if the screw attack is avoidable and alternate routes can be found for the other places you need it.  (you can already get the Torvus key that "requires" it without ever getting grapple).
[/spoiler]

Zeke

2004-11-20 03:12:19 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from Arkarian:

Why does Retro want to make the game impossible to SB? I mean, don't they see that a lot of the reason we like it so much is that we can SB the games? It's what makes it Metroid, after all.

I wouldn't go that far. Sequence breaking is a natural thought once you're introduced to it, but it probably never even occurs to most Metroid players. If asked what makes it Metroid, they might say searching for cleverly hidden powerups, or going for the best ending. Or heck, fighting Metroids.

kip

2004-11-20 03:27:16 am

Solr:

You're locked in Amorbis' room until you pick up the dark suit, so I don't know how you would skip it. I just beat him a bit ago to check. That was one item that stuck out at me until I did though; I don't think there would have been a problem as long as boost guardian could be beaten without it (or an extra tank in its place).

Prime Hunter

2004-11-20 07:13:13 am

I forgot to mention something that I tried, but have a feeling won't work:

I tried to TBJ over the barrier surrounding the Screw Attack when I first got there: If there is no invisible wall above the top of the barriers, and you can get enough height from the TBJ, you may be able to get the SA without going through that entire puzzle. You'd just have to TBJ back over the barrier most likely to escape.

I doubt it would work, but it would be nice if it did... (Gives some of us something to work at...)

And on another note: a somewhat speed trick:

I managed to TBJ up and over the spider wall track that is above the room with those mechanical triclops (In Sanctuary Fortress) numerous times: Saves you the time of going through the floor to get across the room, not much else.)

GreenMamba

2004-11-20 09:13:58 am

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

The Boost Guardian on Hard mode is nuts. He does 50 damage a pop!

Prime Hunter

2004-11-20 09:25:30 am

Man...

I was noticing while headed to the Bog (On my hard run) that IF we could get up to where the boost ball gets us (On the way to the Seeker Missile) that we may be able to get to the Seekers early (Which would be our first SB). So, I loaded up my finished game to take a look...

Unfortunately, I realized that even if we could get up there, there are two barriers in our way:

- There is a room in the morph ball part leading up to the Seekers that needs the boost to get through (It has those stupid breakable blocks that you need to boost over)

- And, if I recall, aren't there spinners in the Seeker Room?

Stupid technicalities...

(Oh, and thanks for that bit of info GreenMamba Wink

: That's pretty much my next stop on my hard run...)

Edit: Speaking of which:

If I saw this correctly, do we even have to go up to U-Mos every time we defeat a temple,(Unless he gives us the translator things) or can we just skip him and go to the next area? (This is for heading out to the Bog and Fortress btw.)

Man...  :evil:

[spoiler]

I was noticing while headed to the Bog (On my hard run) that IF we could get up to where the boost ball gets us (On the way to the Seeker Missile) that we may be able to get to the Seekers early (Which would be our first SB). So, I loaded up my finished game to take a look...

Unfortunately, I realized that [i]even[/i] if we could get up there, there are two barriers in our way:

- There is a room in the morph ball part leading up to the Seekers that needs the boost to get through (It has those stupid breakable blocks that you need to boost over)

- And, if I recall, aren't there spinners in the Seeker Room?
[/spoiler]

Stupid technicalities...

(Oh, and thanks for that bit of info GreenMamba :wink: : That's pretty much my next stop on my hard run...)

Edit: Speaking of which:
[spoiler]If I saw this correctly, do we even have to go up to U-Mos every time we defeat a temple,(Unless he gives us the translator things) or can we just skip him and go to the next area? (This is for heading out to the Bog and Fortress btw.)[/spoiler]

GreenMamba

2004-11-20 11:36:23 am

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

You have to go back to U-Mos. He telepathically locks the ways to the other areas, making you go to him.

Prime Hunter

2004-11-20 03:52:53 pm

Oh right: I remember that happening...

kip

2004-11-20 04:24:14 pm

About that room with the triclops, you can also ghetto over the track (using the wall to the left).

Something funny I noticed yesterday..the dark missile trooper can be killed instantly with the freeze (charged dark)/missile combo. Go getting your own lifebar but being vulnerable to that. >.>

Two things about seekers: yes, there are 4 spinners in the room, and no you don't need boost for that room with the disappearing blocks. I rolled across the whole thing yesterday, then I got stuck in the seekers room since I couldn't get them to leave, and couldn't find a continuous spin for the spinners (they reset if you bomb/leave, just like most of MP1's spinners).

So yeah, if anyone finds a way to get a continuous spin on those, I'm sure seekers before boost would save a lot of time in a run or something. To get past the Meeting Grounds half pipe, ghetto on a wasp hive, then space jump to the top.

Prime Hunter

2004-11-20 06:18:48 pm

Quote from kip:

To get past the Meeting Grounds half pipe, ghetto on a wasp hive, then space jump to the top.

I tried to TBJ/Ghetto ontop of the "Fence" above the door leading to the elevator and get up from there, but no deal. At least there is a way to get there though Laughing

Zeffie

2004-11-21 01:20:30 am

Well I guess this would be the thread to post this, so heh. Well I haven't finished the game yet, but I was messing around for a bit and found a small trick that could save like 1-2 seconds or so possibly.. eh not sure if people have found this yet but I'm gonna post anything I find.

In the Industrial Site room you can jump off a Galactic Federation Crate up to the ledge going up towards the bridge etc.. It's the crate sitting right of the door on ground level just below the ledge going up.. It seems to be faster than going up normally, but not by too much. :p Hope this helps save some seconds. :P

[/spoiler]

I made another small find today, might save some time, not too sure though.

Basically in Temple Assembly Site you can jump off a Crate to the bee hive next to where the missile expansion is, but the metal grates or w/e u wanna call them block you. Of course there may be a way in, not too sure, all I did was jump to the right to get on the ledge and roll back to the expansion. Given this isn't too ground breaking, as you can jump up there anyways without doing this. But this might be a way to get up there without the Space Jump Boots. At the very least it could be slightly faster than going up normally, and maybe even faster if you can get inside, maybe going to the left instead to get in and just snag the expansion faster.

Well I guess this would be the thread to post this, so heh. Well I haven't finished the game yet, but I was messing around for a bit and found a small trick that could save like 1-2 seconds or so possibly.. eh not sure if people have found this yet but I'm gonna post anything I find.

[spoiler]In the Industrial Site room you can jump off a Galactic Federation Crate up to the ledge going up towards the bridge etc.. It's the crate sitting right of the door on ground level just below the ledge going up.. It seems to be faster than going up normally, but not by too much. :p Hope this helps save some seconds. :P[/spoiler][/spoiler]

I made another small find today, might save some time, not too sure though.

[spoiler]Basically in Temple Assembly Site you can jump off a Crate to the bee hive next to where the missile expansion is, but the metal grates or w/e u wanna call them block you. Of course there may be a way in, not too sure, all I did was jump to the right to get on the ledge and roll back to the expansion. Given this isn't too ground breaking, as you can jump up there anyways without doing this. But this might be a way to get up there without the Space Jump Boots. At the very least it could be slightly faster than going up normally, and maybe even faster if you can get inside, maybe going to the left instead to get in and just snag the expansion faster.[/spoiler]

GreenMamba

2004-11-21 09:50:47 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

I think I found a speed trick that everyone and their mothers have probably already found that only saves two seconds max...

In Sanctuary Fortress, in the reactor room, when going up the platforms, when you have the Screw Attack... there's a point on one platform that there's two platforms--one you can reach, and one you just barely can't with your Space Jump. If you initiate the Screw Attack at just the right moment, you should be able to clear the height and get to it, saving maybe a second or two.

But ya'll probably already knew this.

kip

2004-11-22 07:01:50 am

I spent many hours trying to do this yesterday:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/catacombs.avi

I could get so close, but just couldn't get the last inch of height necessary. I'm pretty sure they anticipated someone trying this, that's why we really need new moves (that probably don't exist). Hopefully someone who doesn't suck will pull this off, but I'll keep trying occassionally.

I realize the middle of the ground there cuts off sooner than the sides, but it's very hard to get a blogg to hit you if you try jumping off a side, even harder to get a good jump. Still, it might be necessary to do it. I think it's possible if you get a perfect boost from one of them... but like I said, I tried it for many hours, jumping from different places, lots of different jumping techniques to see if anything worked better than the rest, etc.

If I'm not mistaken this would be grapple before gravity boost (even if that's not very exciting), and I was trying to work toward skipping gravity boost anyway. It's barely used anywhere, although I couldn't find a way to get the underwater Torvus key, or even going back up Hydrodynamo Station and the room under it once you drop down to get the key. I'm telling you the way that's set up is very deliberate.

I spent many hours trying to do this yesterday:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/catacombs.avi

I could get so close, but just couldn't get the last inch of height necessary. I'm pretty sure they anticipated someone trying this, that's why we really need new moves (that probably don't exist). Hopefully someone who doesn't suck will pull this off, but I'll keep trying occassionally.

I realize the middle of the ground there cuts off sooner than the sides, but it's very hard to get a blogg to hit you if you try jumping off a side, even harder to get a good jump. Still, it might be necessary to do it. I think it's possible if you get a perfect boost from one of them... but like I said, I tried it for many hours, jumping from different places, lots of different jumping techniques to see if anything worked better than the rest, etc.

If I'm not mistaken this would be grapple before gravity boost (even if that's not very exciting), and I was trying to work toward skipping gravity boost anyway. It's barely used anywhere, although I couldn't find a way to get the underwater Torvus key, or even going back up Hydrodynamo Station and the room under it once you drop down to get the key. I'm telling you the way that's set up is very deliberate.

Dark_T_Zeratul

2004-12-07 07:45:19 pm

Quote from Arkarian:

I hate how Retro took the cheap way out, by making it impossible to able to SB items such as Power Bombs, Super Missiles, and Seeker Missiles, just by making them necessary to open doors. I'm betting that this is the only reason they made the new door-looks. They should have not made the new locks, and actually thought about how to make the game unbreakable.

You do realize that those doors were in Super Metroid first, right?

arkarian

2004-12-07 08:55:34 pm

red chamber dream

Quote from Dark_T_Zeratul:

Quote from Arkarian:

I hate how Retro took the cheap way out, by making it impossible to able to SB items such as Power Bombs, Super Missin doors. I'm les, and Seeker Missiles, just by making them necessary to opebetting that this is the only reason they made the new door-looks. They should have not made the new locks, and actually thought about how to make the game unbreakable.

You do realize that those doors were in Super Metroid first, right?

Yes, but I think that the developers should be smarter and more creative than before, and be able to think of new tricks and puzzles to prevent SB'ing, instead of relying on their old tricks, back when games weren't too too advanced.

But I guess it doesn't bother me too much in the end, now that I've actually beaten Echoes.