full game discussion (spoilers)

Edit history:

Opium: 2017-09-23 09:40:49 pm

2017-09-23 09:40:22 pm

I do like the power bomb boost, but it feels so limited in that you can't boost into a slope and hold a charge like you could with speed booster. It's just one shot in one direction and that's it. I did use it in several large rooms during the cleanup where I traveled very far using it. It would have been nice if there were a few puzzles or shortcuts where you needed to use the new move to boost through blocks.

Turtle

Edit history:

Turtle: 2017-09-23 11:31:11 pm

2017-09-23 11:30:18 pm

I like turtles.

Quote from arkarian:

i ... have to say i don't understand why people don't like backtracking? you know it's a metroid game, right? like, 80% of the fun to any metroid game for me is running around the whole map after i have all the powerups, easily blasting through enemies, and finding hidden stuff.

Like I said, I maintain no illusions that backtracking isn't more or less a series staple, and it's not that I hate it universally. But poison is defined by the dosage too. In all fairness, it's not easy to strike a good balance, and I just felt like there were too many trivial expansions that required taking power bombs back to Area 2 or somesuch, but were no longer even useful by that point. Like, backtracking for items you missed but could have gotten the first time if you were paying attention is on you, but when the game makes it impossible to get so many items on a first pass, it's kind of obnoxious (it annoys me in any game/series, not just this one). I consider it better design to make it so that the player can access most or all of a stage's content the first time through it, even if it's not as easy or efficient as coming back later.

Also, in some other games in the series, backtracking is often simply incidental to navigating to the next objective. Compare SR to Super or Prime, where you still got the fun of breezing through a formerly difficult area, but even though you were in an "earlier" area you were still moving "forward" in the game progression - e.g., going back through Tallon Overworld after getting Boost Ball, or returning through Norfair and Crateria on your way to enter Tourian. Meanwhile in SR there is nothing meaningful that brings you to/through a previously traveled area, so the revisits didn't feel as justified. Though again, it's not just that expansions make up 100% of the impetus for backtracking; it's that there are just so many to backtrack for.

I think maybe one way to fix this would be to hide some of the more powerful "quality of life" abilities in earlier areas and making those items optional. For instance, if you had to find Plasma Beam back in Area 3 after getting midway through Area 5, making it completely optional for clearing the game. It would provide a nice incentive to revisit that previous area, and would also make the player feel like it was really worth the time spent, as opposed to "oh... great... another missile tank."

Quote from Serris:

I guess the magic is lost because people just spam Scan Pulse and see exactly where every item and hidden block is, so they're more following instructions than exploring

I don't think that's really true... if I didn't have Scan Pulse I would have just been spamming power bombs the whole time and just generally taken longer and been more annoyed to achieve the same result. Also while I do get where you're coming from re:exploration, the idea carries significantly less appeal after the first playthrough, when it becomes a matter of going through the motions whether you use Scan Pulse or not.

[quote="arkarian"]i ... have to say i don't understand why people don't like backtracking? you know it's a metroid game, right? like, 80% of the fun to any metroid game for me is running around the whole map after i have all the powerups, easily blasting through enemies, and finding hidden stuff.[/quote]
Like I said, I maintain no illusions that backtracking isn't more or less a series staple, and it's not that I hate it universally. But poison is defined by the dosage too. In all fairness, it's not easy to strike a good balance, and I just felt like there were too many trivial expansions that required taking power bombs back to Area 2 or somesuch, but were no longer even useful by that point. Like, backtracking for items you missed but could have gotten the first time if you were paying attention is on you, but when the game makes it impossible to get so many items on a first pass, it's kind of obnoxious (it annoys me in any game/series, not just this one). I consider it better design to make it so that the player [i]can[/i] access most or all of a stage's content the first time through it, even if it's not as easy or efficient as coming back later.

Also, in some other games in the series, backtracking is often simply incidental to navigating to the next objective. Compare SR to [i]Super[/i] or [i]Prime[/i], where you still got the fun of breezing through a formerly difficult area, but even though you were in an "earlier" area you were still moving "forward" in the game progression - e.g., going back through Tallon Overworld after getting Boost Ball, or returning through Norfair and Crateria on your way to enter Tourian. Meanwhile in SR there is nothing meaningful that brings you to/through a previously traveled area, so the revisits didn't feel as justified. Though again, it's not just that expansions make up 100% of the impetus for backtracking; it's that there are just so many to backtrack for.

I think maybe one way to fix this would be to hide some of the more powerful "quality of life" abilities in earlier areas and making those items optional. For instance, if you had to find Plasma Beam back in Area 3 after getting midway through Area 5, making it completely optional for clearing the game. It would provide a nice incentive to revisit that previous area, and would also make the player feel like it was really worth the time spent, as opposed to "oh... great... another missile tank."

[quote="Serris"]I guess the magic is lost because people just spam Scan Pulse and see exactly where every item and hidden block is, so they're more following instructions than exploring[/quote]
I don't think that's really true... if I didn't have Scan Pulse I would have just been spamming power bombs the whole time and just generally taken longer and been more annoyed to achieve the same result. Also while I do get where you're coming from re:exploration, the idea carries significantly less appeal after the first playthrough, when it becomes a matter of going through the motions whether you use Scan Pulse or not.

Cantonbags04

2017-09-23 11:47:53 pm

Samus Lauren

Honestly not really sure why everyone is like 'SCAN PULSE IS CHEATING11!!!' when... like Turtle said, it's literally just supposed to be a replacement map station. It can't tell you HOW to get an item, just where it is. Honestly that just made it more frustrating for me sometimes lmao. 'how do I GET that damned thing? How do I get past these damned spikes?? can I get this item now or backtrack later?' etc.

Just. I mean its no more cheating than X-ray vision was in Super and Prime. If anything it's kind of a nice comfortable combination of the two. Map Station that gives hints but isn't TOO revealing.

Cantonbags04

2017-09-23 11:49:10 pm

Samus Lauren

Also RE: Backtracking

LOL omg I LOATHED Backtracking in Prime 2. It was easily the most frustrating part of the game. I could have shaved off so much time if I didnt have to constantly backtrack blindly in that game between dimensional portals.

Idkbutlike2

Edit history:

Idkbutlike2: 2017-09-24 07:10:41 am

Idkbutlike2: 2017-09-24 07:10:17 am

2017-09-24 07:09:43 am

Prime 2 had the unfortunate case of having to traverse a really big in-game world with no method of fast travel. Now, this wouldn't have been too big of an issue if the Light Temple Key hunt had not been a thing, but it was a thing and it sucked hard.

Prime Hunter

2017-09-25 05:30:02 am

It's been a long time since I last came around here, but Samus Returns was worth the wait. Just finished my first run earlier tonight at 09:56:51 with 100% items. Pretty sure that's the first time I've fully completed one of these on my first go. I ended up spoiling myself about the finale before the game launched (through looking for the surface theme in the OST of all things) but it was still a heck of a ride once I got there. I'm not really sure where I'd rate SR compared to the other 2D Metroids just yet, but it's definitely in the upper end of the spectrum.

I do have to agree about the backtracking in this one, although being a re-imagining of ROS it doesn't surprise me since that's a pretty straight shot from start to finish. Once you get power bombs though it seems like there's little need to go looking for more expansions for it, which is pretty much the way Fusion and ZM handled them too. Although I admit by the time I got to those I had gone back several times to the old areas to try and power myself up due to the overall difficulty of the game for me, so maybe if they weren't so late in the game it would've made more sense.

And I guess I've played too much old school Metroid because except for the Metroid/boss battles and a few exceptions early on I stuck with blasting everything with my beams rather than using melee. Of course, being able to spam Beam Burst when necessary helped keep that mindset going...

It's been a long time since I last came around here, but Samus Returns was worth the wait. Just finished my first run earlier tonight at 09:56:51 with 100% items. Pretty sure that's the first time I've fully completed one of these on my first go. I ended up spoiling myself about the finale before the game launched (through looking for the surface theme in the OST of all things) but it was still a heck of a ride once I got there. I'm not really sure where I'd rate SR compared to the other 2D Metroids just yet, but it's definitely in the upper end of the spectrum.

I do have to agree about the backtracking in this one, although being a re-imagining of ROS it doesn't surprise me since that's a pretty straight shot from start to finish. Once you get power bombs though it seems like there's little need to go looking for more expansions for it, which is pretty much the way Fusion and ZM handled them too. Although I admit by the time I got to those I had gone back several times to the old areas to try and power myself up due to the overall difficulty of the game for me, so maybe if they weren't so late in the game it would've made more sense.

And I guess I've played too much old school Metroid because except for the Metroid/boss battles and a few exceptions early on I stuck with blasting everything with my beams rather than using melee. Of course, being able to spam Beam Burst when necessary helped keep that mindset going...

Prime Hunter

2017-09-25 05:32:27 am

Oh and like others, the hardest part for me was clearly Diggernaut. Got stuck on him for at least an hour since I came into the fight at low health and didn't feel like recharging after dying several times to him. Still a significant difficulty curve compared to the rest of the battles in my mind though. Pretty sure Samus channeled my thoughts with that last blast in the cutscene.

zeldacia3

2017-09-25 09:20:58 am

Amateur Speedrunner, Roleplayer

I spoiled myself about the ending the same way

zeldacia3

2017-09-25 01:34:17 pm

Amateur Speedrunner, Roleplayer

I was able to get the suitless ending. my time was 3:47:10

zeldacia3

2017-09-25 03:02:52 pm

Amateur Speedrunner, Roleplayer

I figured out that you can use a power bomb to expose the omega metroids chest right away

Opium

2017-09-28 11:44:46 am

I've had more time to think about the game and develop more opinions.

Pros:
Samus looks great.
The controls feel great.
The combat, including the melee counter, works great and compliments the responsive controls perfectly.
The boss battles are enjoyable once you figure out what to do.
The final boss battle was done well and felt like a really nice added treat
I enjoyed the new mixes of the classic metroid music.

Cons:

Many environments look very similar. It would have been better if they made more distinct areas. I can look at a screenshot of other 2d troids and instantly tell what area it is in. It's hard to remember where to go and lessens the feel of the game. The heated areas had a distinct look and music, but they were like a room here and a room there. This is an awkward setup. It would have been so much better if the heated area was one of the areas in the game instead of a random room here and there.

Scan pulse. I've heard some people say it's no different than power bombs, but it is because it reveals all secrets - even shit in other rooms AND you get is so early in the game. In previous 2D metroids, I was discovering previously hidden areas for weeks after I bought the game. But with scan pulse, a simple glimpse of the mini-map reveals all. There's no secrets, no moment of discovery. Like in fusion, there were so many places that looked indistinct and were written off as such, only later I would find out 'holy shit there's an invisible passage up there!' after passing through that room a hundred times before. You don't get this in SR. Using scan pulse to find out which blocks are breakable on the floor reveals a big part of the map. I wish I had never used it. Too late now.

Why no percentage shown on the screen that shows your total time?

Missile firing rate is too slow.

Boss battles tended to stump me as far as figuring out what it was that they wanted me to do. This isn't really a problem in other metroid games with the exception of the queen in M2 and OtherM. Were they trying to stick with that tradition since this is a remake of M2? It's not a problem after the you figure it out, but it takes the fun out of the boss fights on your first playthrough.

A morph button would have been nice, or the option to swap controls between the d-pad and the circle pad. It took me a while to get used to morphing with the circle pad, but there are still a couple of times in each playthrough where I fail to morph and get irritated.

The reserve tanks can only be filled at a recharge station. In Super, you can refill your reserve tanks with any energy balls collected while your regular tanks are full. That was better.

The hard and fusion modes only increased damage and that's it. Lame. They could have added more enemies, tougher enemies, lowered the energy left by defeated enemies, reduced missile tanks from 3 to 2 (or even 1?), reduced energy tanks to 50 units, etc etc. There's a lot more they could have done to make the game more challenging other than simply multiplying damage.

Elevators that took you from one area to another made sense. The elevators within an area that you just took you to the room above you seemed pointless.

IBJ and walljumping were too easy. They weren't that useful anyways, but I enjoyed doing those moves more when they felt like special moves.

I've had more time to think about the game and develop more opinions.

Pros:
Samus looks great.
The controls feel great.
The combat, including the melee counter, works great and compliments the responsive controls perfectly.
The boss battles are enjoyable once you figure out what to do.
The final boss battle was done well and felt like a really nice added treat
I enjoyed the new mixes of the classic metroid music.

Cons:

Many environments look very similar. It would have been better if they made more distinct areas.  I can look at a screenshot of other 2d troids and instantly tell what area it is in.  It's hard to remember where to go and lessens the feel of the game.  The heated areas had a distinct look and music, but they were like a room here and a room there.  This is an awkward setup.  It would have been so much better if the heated area was one of the areas in the game instead of a random room here and there.

Scan pulse.  I've heard some people say it's no different than power bombs, but it is because it reveals all secrets - even shit in other rooms AND you get is so early in the game. In previous 2D metroids, I was discovering previously hidden areas for weeks after I bought the game. But with scan pulse, a simple glimpse of the mini-map reveals all. There's no secrets, no moment of discovery.  Like in fusion, there were so many places that looked indistinct and were written off as such, only later I would find out 'holy shit there's an invisible passage up there!' after passing through that room a hundred times before. You don't get this in SR.  Using scan pulse to find out which blocks are breakable on the floor reveals a big part of the map.  I wish I had never used it.  Too late now.

Why no percentage shown on the screen that shows your total time?

Missile firing rate is too slow.

Boss battles tended to stump me as far as figuring out what it was that they wanted me to do.  This isn't really a problem in other metroid games with the exception of the queen in M2 and OtherM.  Were they trying to stick with that tradition since this is a remake of M2?  It's not a problem after the you figure it out, but it takes the fun out of the boss fights on your first playthrough.

A morph button would have been nice, or the option to swap controls between the d-pad and the circle pad.  It took me a while to get used to morphing with the circle pad, but there are still a couple of times in each playthrough where I fail to morph and get irritated.

The reserve tanks can only be filled at a recharge station.  In Super, you can refill your reserve tanks with any energy balls collected while your regular tanks are full.  That was better.

The hard and fusion modes only increased damage and that's it.  Lame.  They could have added more enemies, tougher enemies, lowered the energy left by defeated enemies, reduced missile tanks from 3 to 2 (or even 1?), reduced energy tanks to 50 units, etc etc.  There's a lot more they could have done to make the game more challenging other than simply multiplying damage.

Elevators that took you from one area to another made sense.  The elevators within an area that you just took you to the room above you seemed pointless.

IBJ and walljumping were too easy.  They weren't that useful anyways, but I enjoyed doing those moves more when they felt like special moves.

zeldacia3

2017-09-28 02:54:20 pm

Amateur Speedrunner, Roleplayer

Does anyone else hope that they remake fusion like they were originally going to?

arkarian

2017-09-28 03:17:39 pm

red chamber dream

i'd play a fusion remake. i hardly see the need for one though. it still looks good and plays well

ryu

2017-09-28 03:22:33 pm

Just beat the queen, guess I'm almost done then.

I like the game, but still prefer the games from Super onwards. This one's too long with too little enemy variety. That issue aside, I'm with Opium on all her points.

Serris

2017-09-28 03:28:01 pm

Pretty sure MS approached Nin with wanting to remake Fusion and was shot down and offered to remake M2 instead, which is exactly what should've happened. Why would you remake Fusion?

Opium

2017-09-28 03:30:30 pm

To make the nav room dialogue skippable.

Serris

2017-09-28 03:31:46 pm

M1 and 2 were the only ones that needed remakes, but Super still needs it more than Fusion

Opium

2017-09-28 03:33:14 pm

After seeing the SR ending that shows the X-parasite, I wouldn't be surprised if MS is working on some kind of fusion project right now.

Serris

2017-09-28 03:33:47 pm

Just play the japanese version if you want less text

zeldacia3

2017-09-29 09:18:38 am

Amateur Speedrunner, Roleplayer

Well if they were to remake another 2D game it would probably be fusion. I doubt they would touch Super Metroid.

ryu

2017-09-30 03:29:50 pm

Quote from Cantonbags04:

No it's not an inatakill and wasn't in the original either, but it does massive damage and is only available if you successfully counter her. I think it takes two/three power bombs but i haven't done so I'm not sure.

That's not the intended way to fight her? I thought bombing her insides was the only way to damage her.

Cantonbags04

2017-10-02 12:10:56 am

Samus Lauren

Nah you can damage her in a ton of ways, just shooting her mouth is enough to damage her.

Plasma beam kills all, but i think i used ice beam on her just to be safe.

ryu

2017-10-02 10:03:29 am

Aren't all Metroids immune to all beams except ice? that's what it looked like to me.

zeldacia3

Edit history:

zeldacia3: 2017-10-02 10:09:49 am

2017-10-02 10:06:45 am

Amateur Speedrunner, Roleplayer

they are unless you use beam burst. the beam burst is really useful on the gamma metroids that like to run away

Opium

2017-10-02 10:36:29 am

Oh I thought you had to PB the queen's insides to kill her. That's how I did it all 3 times I've killed her. I used 3 power bombs in her stomach.