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nn12000
2006-01-07 04:43:23 pm
Mister ...
I have a couple of ideas that I don't have the guts (or game) to try.

On your way to get the Varia Suit upgrade, that one room where you find the dead end, hide under the gap, and wait for the SA-X, what would happen if you were to not go under the platform and then backtrack?  Would the SA-X still come through the door?  Would you be stuck upon doing this?

Also too, is it possible to defeat the SA-X before you are supposed to?
Thread title: 
Supuh
2006-01-07 04:53:14 pm
njope, even shipesparking through it doesnt do anything, its coded to be invincible until the fight, besides, the fighting sa-x is a different one then the ones you run from, the game has different code from it. the sa-x in the room before the vaira only appears afteryou backtrack, although you can try and fight it, nothing works, even if you use an AR
SABERinBLUE
2006-01-07 06:35:31 pm
Cook of the Sea
Additionally, sparky managed to get into the SA-X boss fight room far earlier than is supposed to be possible in the hopes of triggering the fight early, but the fight didn't trigger.
DeathNoble
2006-01-07 06:56:33 pm
[url]www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/fusion_esa-x.avi[/url]  Seen here.

And I just toyed around with the SA-X in the NOC encounter.  Not much of a point ion backtracking, as the previos room is a trap, unless you use Power Bombs to open a hole in the ceiling and at that particular point in time, you don't have Power Bombs.  Therefore, you're stuck in a very small room where the SA-X can pwn you easily.  Unless you jump over him and go the way you're supposed to.

I used an AR for early Power Bombs, and got into the tunnel above to escape the room backwards.  The SA-X does not follow you into the tunnel, as it never enters Morph Ball mode except for those short few seconds to plant a Power Bomb.  Therefore, when you escape that room backwards, the SA-X fight chase goes bye-bye.

Sorry, no early SA-X fight.
Sasuke_Kun
(user is banned)
2006-01-08 08:44:27 am
If you're looking to SB Fusion in any way, just give up right now. Adam hates the hell out of it.
DeathNoble
2006-01-08 11:09:02 am
http://www.metroid2002.com/fusion/other_early_power_bomb_tank.php
The first Early Power Bomb Tank.


[url]www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/fusion_epb.avi[/url]
The second Early Power Bomb Tank, discovered by Sparky.  It's just not up on the main site's Fusion section.

http://www.metroid2002.com/ekarderif/boiler1.avi

http://www.metroid2002.com/ekarderif/boiler3.avi

http://www.metroid2002.com/ekarderif/boiler4.avi
The three above videos shows getting into the Boiler Room early without Ice Missiles, what's up there before you get Ice Missiles, and the fact that the door is there only once and does not respawn during the meltdown sequence.

http://www.metroid2002.com/fusion/other_the_tro_trap.php
Failed sequence break.  We got past the first spot without Space Jump, but the second spot stabbed us in the heart when it trapped us.

http://www.metroid2002.com/fusion/other_secret_message.php
More not a sequence break than anything.  More of a sequence break that Nintendo saw coming, so they gave a special little message to make you feel better before slamming you back on the set path.

I do believe that is a complte list of everything that would be classified as a sequence break (Excluding early Missile/Energy Tanks) that's in Fusion.
Mr Potter
2006-01-08 03:37:17 pm
I fail to see why "boiler4.avi" is showing a sequence break. It's completely normal. Watching those videos taught me some things, though. I had no idea that you could get to the Wide Beam room without the Varia; I thought we were stuck at that room. And I had no idea there was an early power bomb other than the one in the main area... too bad it's all for nothing.
SABERinBLUE
2006-01-08 03:51:34 pm
Cook of the Sea
Um...no.  The Secret Message is not a sequence break any more than Ridley before Kraid in Zero Mission is.  I am of the opinion that Alternate Secret Message is a true sequence break, but a lot of people disagree with me on this.

Quote from DeathNoble:
http://www.metroid2002.com/fusion/other_early_power_bomb_tank.php


Quote from That page:
However, since the Power Bomb Tank only increments your number of available Power Bombs, and you must collect the main Power Bomb upgrade to enable use of those Power Bombs, this trick is little more than a curiosity (and perhaps concrete proof that attempting to sequence break Fusion is a waste of time).


The tro trap is a failed sequence break.  I don't want to watch the videos that you linked to with no descriptions, but the current position of the site, I believe, is that no legitimate sequence breaks exist in Metroid Fusion.
nn12000
2006-01-08 04:37:19 pm
Mister ...
SO basically, there isn't a way to trigger an early SA-X boss fight, (except being seen by it) and destroy it?  Too bad there isn't a way... that'd be sweet running through half the game fully powered with Ice Beam and not Ice Missiles. (Fighting the SA-X and other bosses would be SHWEET fully powered)
DeathNoble
2006-01-08 05:00:25 pm
When I linked to all those vids/sections of the site, I was listing anything that wasn't meant to be done.  However, yes, the secret message was an easter egg put in there, however...  I think of it as the same as the TRO trap.  A failed sequence break.  Think about it.  TRO trap is going after Plasma Beam without Space Jump.  Secret Message is going after Wave Beam without Diffusion Missiles.  The only difference is Nintendo realized the former and put in a message there to make us feel better about pulling off something difficult.  However, they failed to predict the TRO trap.  If they had, there might have been another, different secret message.

And of course the Power Bomb Tanks are for nothing.  We saw that when we got the first early Power Bomb tank.  I looked at that one spot where we got the second, and I thought hmmmm...  Posted my thoughts, a few people tried, failed, then Sparky came along and pulled it off.  I never said in that post that they were useful.  They're just little tricks to wave around in Nintendo's face and be all "neener neener!" like an immature little child, because sometimes acting immature is good for you.

Mr Potter:  Boiler4 isn't completely normal; the bossdoor isn't there.  Besides, the three boiler videos (FYI: There's no boiler2) are really meant to be viewed as more of one video.  The first to to show how to get up three.  The second is to show what's up there early at an early time, and four is to show the result of your screwing around at a later point in the game.

Getting to the room without Varia is simple.  You can use a shinespark to cross that long, heated room at the bottom of PYR quickly enough to get by.  Sess did it in his 1% run up on the main Fusion pages.  Just not before he got the Varia Suit.  It's at 1:45 in the segment 15 (Meltdown).  Getting up the room without Ice Missiles is what we were doing.

And no, sadly, no legimate sequence breaks exist in Fusion.  We can't do anything out of order without the game slamming us in the face with it's concreteness against being broken.  But they're still things we've found here at M2K2 that were never intended to be done, except the secret message, 'cuz Nintendo saw it coming.
kwinse
2006-01-08 05:14:35 pm
But what about skipping Bob?  Or is that excluded because it is impossible on a console?
DeathNoble
2006-01-08 05:28:20 pm
To be truthful, I made that list full of Fusion "sequence breaks" so since I made the list, it was my choice of what to put in it.  I however, don't feel bob is a sequence break as it is skipping a Missile Expansion.  Therefore, I've always looked at it as something to lower the percent, not a sequence break.

However, don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to take anything away from him, here.  I have no idea how much time he put into it, but I'm sure it was a lot of time before he finally pulled it off.  Ekard is the only one that's managed to pull it off, to our knowledge, and I have the utmost respect for him and what he was capable of doing. 

I just don't see skipping an expansion as a sequence break; I see skipping an upgrade as a sequence break.  That's why I didn't put any early tanks in that list, except for the 2 Power Bomb ones 'cuz they came before the actual upgrade.

Everyone else's definition may vary however, so I'm not the authority on it.  But that is a list of everything we've done in the line of skipping upgrades.  At least, I hope that's a full list...
Sasuke_Kun
(user is banned)
2006-01-09 12:54:53 pm
Well, Ekard is the king of Fusion around here, in spite of the fact that the Ridley battle has proven to be carcinogenic in certain cases.....

As for the skipping expansions thing, I don't think it counts either.
It should only count as a Sequence Break if the item you skip is (supposedly) crucial to success, or if the item (of any sort) is acquired early. I could go into more detail on SB's, but that'd be a different topic entirely....
nn12000
2006-01-12 10:05:48 pm
Mister ...
Ridley Owns, even Ridley X!  Anyways, IF IT WAS POSSIBLE TO DEFEAT THE SA-X EARLY, HOW MUCH EASIER DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD MAKE THE GAME?  Would you still be able to absorb the X thingies?
BioSpark
2006-01-13 06:30:53 pm
Quote from nn12000:
Would you still be able to absorb the X thingies?

I believe so. I dont know about absorbing x that gives you abilities, but I think getting the suit early would give you all the abilities anyways.
Supuh
2006-01-13 07:11:48 pm
Quote from The Dark Knight:
Quote from nn12000:
Would you still be able to absorb the X thingies?

I believe so. I dont know about absorbing x that gives you abilities, but I think getting the suit early would give you all the abilities anyways.


if you use an AR to get the screw attack and icebeam/final suit first, then until you get the space jump, wall jumps act just like they did in super metroid  :P
nn12000
2006-01-13 10:57:09 pm
Mister ...
[
Quote:
quote="Supuh]

if you use an AR to get the screw attack and icebeam/final suit first, then until you get the space jump, wall jumps act just like they did in super metroid  :P
[/quote]

I have a hard time wall kicking... Actually was forced to do it in Fusion at some point, but had a heck of a time doing it. got stuck...
rain
2006-01-13 11:38:14 pm
In theory, if you defeat sa-x early you would need the game be in the state that allows the selfdestruct to be activated.  Thus, to get the final suit/icebeam early would require you to finish the game and fight the omega metroid, making it all in all fairly worthless.


Just remember, you don't kill the sa-x (at least you dont absorb it when you beat it), the omega metroid does.
nn12000
2006-01-13 11:50:26 pm
Mister ...
Talking to my Friend on IM, he pointed something out,

The Ice beam actually doesn't hurt Metroids, but only hurts Samus.

If this is the case, what beam actually damages the Metroids?

(Think back to like MI, MII, MZM, Ice beam only froze them.)

Why is it that in Fusion, can you destroy the Omega Metroid without missiles, when in all other Metroids, you had to use them?
Dragon Man
2006-01-13 11:51:57 pm
Actually on prime and prime II you can use only the power beam
UchihaSasuke
2006-01-14 01:14:08 am
my umbrella goes directly to Bankai
the beam in Fusion is too 1337 and can kill anything, unlike the beams in other 2D metroids.

the primes are a whole different story...
DeathNoble
2006-01-14 10:26:08 am
To answer questions raised here...

I toyed around, a lot with an AR a while back with this game.  If you get the final suit, you can still absorb X.  It protects against heat, lava, allows free movement in liquid substances, however does not allow for the save absorbstion of Blue X.

The getting just the ice beam (No other beams) it makes it stronger than a Power Beam shot, but weaker than all the beams combined.  Somewhere in that range of strength.  Making it not all that good for freezing enemies, as it'll kill most in one hit.

Why the Omega was vulnerable to Ice Beam and not any kind of Missile?  I have a theory on that.  Perhaps in other Metroid games, the Metroids were vulnerable to both Missiles and Ice Beam shots.  But in Fusion, with the rapid growth bio-engineering they wre doing, the outer shell of the Omega had become hardened enough to withstand concussive blasts (Missiles) but since the beams are energy-based, the Omega had no defense against them.
BioSpark
2006-01-14 06:22:53 pm
Or maybe we're thinking too hard and the only reason missles dont work is because the programmers didnt want you beating OM without getting the final suit :P
DeathNoble
2006-01-14 06:43:12 pm
The Final Suit is nothing more than coloring.  It's the actual absorbtion of the Ice Beam that changes the suit's coloring.  The final suit isn't a suit at all; it's a side-effect.

If you put into an AR "Have Ice Beam" you get the final suit with everything I mentioned above.  You can put in a code into the AR that's "Have final suit with no effects" and it gives you just that, but changing sprite's colors with an AR doesn't seem all that hard.  I'll bet there's an AR code for having the Varia and Gravity suits with no effects.  Just nobody cares about those two.
nn12000
2006-01-14 09:07:38 pm
Mister ...
Here's a question.  While discussing it early in the game, about Ice beam or Ice missiles, what did they mean they couldn't give Samus Ice Beam because her body would Reject that? It's a suit upgrade though, not a "THis enhances your physical abilities" power up. So, what's the deal?