Early power bombs obsolete?

2012-10-09 01:39:15 pm

Is the secret world method of getting early power bombs basically obsolete when skipping the item loss? In my recent playthrough, in which I beat my previous personal record by 17 minutes (now 3:23), I abandoned getting early PBs after four consecutive utter failures at wall crawling when I reasoned that there was nowhere in the game I would actually need PBs before I could descend to Lower Torvus in order to defeat the Power Bomb guardian - a required action seemingly better done during the Torvus leg of a speedrun, while picking up the keys needed to fight Chykka, than on a special excursion after getting the Light Suit. This, to me, seems to optimize both defeating the PB Guardian and the later key collection sequence. Maybe it's just me though. My time is still pretty poor compared to the records, so I have a lot more leeway to play around and still see an improvement in my time :P

Thread title:

Jerry9

2012-10-09 01:52:24 pm

not evil,just hungry

the early pb is not necessary, but it does save time. for example, ds1 dies to 1 pb. it also lets you use the agon to sanctuary elevator.

TheOthin

2012-10-09 03:38:49 pm

To go into more detail: Miles' route is (unless I've missed something) the fastest route known and the only one known to be capable of getting under an hour. A key part of that route is going straight into Sanctuary after getting Dark/Light Beam to get Screw Attack and the Sanctuary Energy to unlock the Light Suit. So yeah, for high-level play, that early Power Bomb is hugely important.

Quasar

2012-10-09 07:09:01 pm

I see. I had forgotten that part of Miles' run or it probably would have been more clear to me that it still has purpose :)

MrSpEeDrUn

2012-10-10 05:58:25 pm

MP2 also a bit MP1 speedrunning

you shouldnt take miles's route...
the early PB saves around 5 minutes (depends on how fast you are)
and its quite hard to pull off especially if youre new in the game.
you should finish up a few more runs till you get ~sub 3 ingame than you might think about getting the pb early.
i good luck on your attempts.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-10-10 07:47:22 pm

kirbymastah: 2012-10-10 07:45:36 pm

2012-10-10 07:44:40 pm

for me personally, once you learn the basics of SW wallcrawling, the early PB is pretty formulaic and straightforward. The hardest part for me was the ghetto jump, and even now I get that somewhat consistently.

I personally recommend learning the early PB as it's pretty important in just about every speedrun of MP2 (any%, 100%, etc). Do you stream? Do you need advice for how to do it? It really is wtf the first time you try to go for it, and it's a lot more helpful if you have experienced players guiding you while you stream (miles and mrspeedrun saved my butt when I learned early PB two weeks ago).

Also following miles's route might not be a good idea as iirc it's segmented, it's very hard, and there's grand abyss and quad skip, which both are very hard (first being practically impossible in a single-segment). Of course, this is coming from someone who hasn't learned any% yet so take what I say with a grain of salt.

rekameohs

2012-10-10 10:42:24 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

Quote from kirbymastah:

Also following miles's route might not be a good idea as iirc it's segmented, it's very hard, and there's grand abyss and quad skip, which both are very hard (first being practically impossible in a single-segment). Of course, this is coming from someone who hasn't learned any% yet so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I've always been a little curious of what a good any% route would be that doesn't use the Grand Abyss skip and does ILS.

Super KB

2012-10-11 01:54:06 am

ϟ

Is it possible to get early in the trilogy version if anybody knows?

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2012-10-11 02:18:58 am

2012-10-11 02:18:36 am

Yes it's possible but not worth it, from what I've heard. You have to enter the SW via jumping from a scan post in the elevator to the great temple, and ghetto-ing off of a slope near it.

If you're speedrunning, don't even bother with trilogy, just get the GC version.

Super KB

2012-10-11 03:16:10 pm

ϟ

Ah I see. I'm not a speedrunner so I got plenty of time. I don't have the GC version of MP1 and 2 because I gave it to my bro after I got the trilogy version. THX KM!

Tahngarthor

2012-10-29 07:06:44 pm

Bangaa Bishop

Some tricks may not work on the Trilogy version, be aware of that. MP1 and 2 are unique builds in Trilogy which have changes preesent in none of the other versions. In particular it looks like you can't use screw attack against mutated emperor ing anymore.

rekameohs

2012-10-29 11:11:53 pm

Anywhere, everywhere

MP2 is still the most breakable with trilogy, as PB's can still be gotten directly after space jump. It's still much less than GC though, with Item Loss Skip and all screw attack secret worlds removed.

UchihaSasuke

2012-11-26 11:18:32 am

my umbrella goes directly to Bankai

my PR uses a route that ditched the early PB. i was tired of failing it and just wanted an improvement. there's several alternatives with ILS if you're just learning the game to see what can be done (a few of those alternatives become useful for things like low% or max% skipping a certain item)

kirbymastah

2012-12-05 10:19:57 am

Yeah quite honestly, early power bomb isn't THAT important for any% (at least if you're not using the insane sanctuary-after-agon route). The only places it'd save major time in is against dark samus IIRC, and it lets you nab an extra PB expansion before heading to lower torvus too. It also lets you get to power bomb guardian more quickly.

But without the early power bomb, you can still go ahead and fight power bomb guardian before grabbing gravity boost because you have spider ball IIRC.

Quasar

2013-07-18 11:11:22 am

Quote from kirbymastah:

for me personally, once you learn the basics of SW wallcrawling, the early PB is pretty formulaic and straightforward. The hardest part for me was the ghetto jump, and even now I get that somewhat consistently.

I personally recommend learning the early PB as it's pretty important in just about every speedrun of MP2 (any%, 100%, etc). Do you stream? Do you need advice for how to do it?

Hopefully this isn't too old to bump, seeing that it's still on the first page. If anyone has advice on wallcrawling techniques, I'd love to know because the behavior of the game engine, to me at least, is both mystifying and incredibly aggravating. The second time I actually managed to ever get into the power bomb secret world, I successfully obtained the power bombs AND made it back with them - this was a few years ago. However ever since then, it has taken me anywhere from 5+ tries, to so many that I finally give up on it. So many things go wrong - I can't get on top of the door, or, when I finally do, I cannot obtain the power bombs no matter how I go about trying to fall onto the area they're in, or, I fall *into* the room with it fully loaded, and I end up trapped inside the grates without enough PBs to blow them up. Aether jumping is so aggravating that it makes me go crazy, with repeatedly falling back down to where I started.

[quote="kirbymastah"]for me personally, once you learn the basics of SW wallcrawling, the early PB is pretty formulaic and straightforward. The hardest part for me was the ghetto jump, and even now I get that somewhat consistently.

I personally recommend learning the early PB as it's pretty important in just about every speedrun of MP2 (any%, 100%, etc). Do you stream? Do you need advice for how to do it?[/quote]
Hopefully this isn't too old to bump, seeing that it's still on the first page. If anyone has advice on wallcrawling techniques, I'd love to know because the behavior of the game engine, to me at least, is both mystifying and incredibly aggravating. The second time I actually managed to ever get into the power bomb secret world, I successfully obtained the power bombs AND made it back with them - this was a few years ago. However ever since then, it has taken me anywhere from 5+ tries, to so many that I finally give up on it. So many things go wrong - I can't get on top of the door, or, when I finally do, I cannot obtain the power bombs no matter how I go about trying to fall onto the area they're in, or, I fall *into* the room with it fully loaded, and I end up trapped inside the grates without enough PBs to blow them up. Aether jumping is so aggravating that it makes me go crazy, with repeatedly falling back down to where I started.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-07-18 01:07:33 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-07-18 01:07:06 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-07-18 01:06:06 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-07-18 01:05:05 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-07-18 01:04:15 pm

2013-07-18 01:03:34 pm

I'm not sure what specifically you're having trouble with; I'll assume that since you were able to at least get to Dynamo Chamber, you know the very basic mechanics of wallcrawling.

Getting on top of the door is merely getting better at aether jumping. If you're having trouble with it, then well, get better at aether jumping. I recommend trying to find the invisible wall between temple assembly site's box and the aether, and visualize it in your head; tap the control stick LIGHTLY and press B at the same time to aether jumping. The timing takes a while to get used to, and it's not easy; I remember back when I sucked at aether jumping (I mashed B and prayed <_< ) and it's taken me several months for me to actually get good at aether jumping (as in, not mash B but actually time it)

Once you're on the door, what you want to do next depends on whether the gates in Dynamo Chamber are up or down (they'll be down if you scanned the machine; up if you haven't yet). If the gates are down, then you want the game to be transitioned on Temple Assembly Site. If they're up, then have the game transitioned on Dynamo Chamber. Pay attention to the mini-map in the top-right corner.

While on the door, face Dynamo Chamber, jump once in place, then use your space jump forward to land on the slant. You wont be on a standable spot; morph, then do a 3BJ and unmorph at the peak to get on the skywalk. This isn't the fastest way to get to the expansion, but it's very, very easy. Walk over to above where the PB expansion is, then morph. I recommend unmorphing just before landing so you don't accidentally bounce or roll off. Then to actually grab the expansion, you need to morph and bomb jump such that you'll land on the very front-right corner tip of the expansion (watch any video and you'll see what I mean).

If you miss falling on the PB tank, then you'll have to aether jump back up. Just go to the same spot you aether jumped from to get back on the door between TSA and Dynamo Chamber (aether jump to the left of the door if you're facing it from TSA in-bounds).

Now, to get back in-bounds depends on whether the gates are up or not. But first, bomb jump towards the Dynamo Chamber hall once, and unmorph at the peak to find a standable spot on the alcove with where the PB tank was. You'll know you found it if you can jump in human form; if not, then bomb jump again, adjust your position a bit, and try again.

If the gates are up, that means you haven't scanned the machine in Dynamo Chamber. Jump into the wall across from the machine, then scan it (you can't scan it from outside the wall, the game will say that something's obstructing it). The game will warp you back in bounds, and you're good! Just make sure to unload TSA by approaching it if you plan on going to the communication area or else you'll freeze the game.

If the gates are down, then you'll ceiling warp into the top floor of the Dynamo Chamber. Facing Dynamo Chamber from where you are, jump into the slanted wall just in front of you, and above the higher floor. Morph, wait a half second, then unmorph and you'll break through. Go to TSA to transition the game correctly and you're set! If you fail to break in, try finding a different spot near that wall, or do a bomb jump to ceiling warp.

I'm not sure what specifically you're having trouble with; I'll assume that since you were able to at least get to Dynamo Chamber, you know the very basic mechanics of wallcrawling.

Getting on top of the door is merely getting better at aether jumping. If you're having trouble with it, then well, get better at aether jumping. I recommend trying to find the invisible wall between temple assembly site's box and the aether, and visualize it in your head; tap the control stick LIGHTLY and press B at the same time to aether jumping. The timing takes a while to get used to, and it's not easy; I remember back when I sucked at aether jumping (I mashed B and prayed <_< ) and it's taken me several months for me to actually get good at aether jumping (as in, not mash B but actually time it)

Once you're on the door, what you want to do next depends on whether the gates in Dynamo Chamber are up or down (they'll be down if you scanned the machine; up if you haven't yet). If the gates are down, then you want the game to be transitioned on Temple Assembly Site. If they're up, then have the game transitioned on Dynamo Chamber. Pay attention to the mini-map in the top-right corner.

While on the door, face Dynamo Chamber, jump once in place, then use your space jump forward to land on the slant. You wont be on a standable spot; morph, then do a 3BJ and unmorph at the peak to get on the skywalk. This isn't the fastest way to get to the expansion, but it's very, very easy. Walk over to above where the PB expansion is, then morph. I recommend unmorphing just before landing so you don't accidentally bounce or roll off. Then to actually grab the expansion, you need to morph and bomb jump such that you'll land on the very front-right corner tip of the expansion (watch any video and you'll see what I mean).

If you miss falling on the PB tank, then you'll have to aether jump back up. Just go to the same spot you aether jumped from to get back on the door between TSA and Dynamo Chamber (aether jump to the left of the door if you're facing it from TSA in-bounds).

Now, to get back in-bounds depends on whether the gates are up or not. But first, bomb jump towards the Dynamo Chamber hall once, and unmorph at the peak to find a standable spot on the alcove with where the PB tank was. You'll know you found it if you can jump in human form; if not, then bomb jump again, adjust your position a bit, and try again.

If the gates are up, that means you haven't scanned the machine in Dynamo Chamber. Jump into the wall across from the machine, then scan it (you can't scan it from outside the wall, the game will say that something's obstructing it). The game will warp you back in bounds, and you're good! Just make sure to unload TSA by approaching it if you plan on going to the communication area or else you'll freeze the game.

If the gates are down, then you'll ceiling warp into the top floor of the Dynamo Chamber. Facing Dynamo Chamber from where you are, jump into the slanted wall just in front of you, and above the higher floor. Morph, wait a half second, then unmorph and you'll break through. Go to TSA to transition the game correctly and you're set! If you fail to break in, try finding a different spot near that wall, or do a bomb jump to ceiling warp.

Quasar

2013-07-20 09:54:07 pm

Scanning the machine to get back in bounds is brilliant; never seen that done before in a vid. Coming straight off ILS, I would never have scanned the grates so I could always use that. That alone takes a huge load of the anxiety off of trying this trick, as there's nothing worse than actually getting the bomb but not making it back in-bounds with it. I guess that just leaves getting on top of the door in a reasonable amount of time, and that's what I suck the worst at doing. Maybe if I understood where the boundary is better, it would help. As is, it always seems like I'm just fishing for it and constantly getting out of position.

kirbymastah

2013-07-20 10:45:34 pm

Well figuring out where the boundary is, it's mostly just experience :/ you'll just have to find the general area, wait until you get a jump from the bottom then move left and get a feel for the boundary

skriata

2014-08-16 01:45:43 am

sequence breaking ftw!

early power bombs should be in the hydrodynamo area if you did the item loss skip

it would go grapple beam ==> power bombs ==> gravity boost

kirbymastah

2014-08-16 11:17:08 am

errrr what? You get that main power bombs anyways, after gravity boost.