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SonicandTails218
2004-03-31 05:31:57 pm
I was thinking to my self a while ago about what I could do for video runs, since I've been wanting to submit something. Then I realized, "No one has done a 'Non Sequence Breaking run' for Zero Mission."

It would be a run without any SBing at all, just following the Chozos and leaving no map-dot untouched. It does seem kinda weird, but after all....No Boss Mini Boss for Super?
Thread title: 
Metroid Prime
2004-03-31 05:36:58 pm
Good luck.  ZM's hard if you want to do that.

Hard as in you will want to Sequence Break SO bad. :x
SonicandTails218
2004-03-31 05:51:37 pm
Quote from MMcLean:
Good luck.  ZM's hard if you want to do that.

Hard as in you will want to Sequence Break SO bad. :x


True, but still, it would be a different change. Going through the game as fast as possible on the path that is obvious. Every one wants to see how fast they can jump down to the river, but has anyone tried using the stairs?
Toozin
2004-03-31 06:25:04 pm
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
As far as I'm concerned, this kind of run is impossible, because there's no real "sequence" in ZM.

Oh sure, you can use the Chozo statue route as an indication of what's "normal". But the statues never point you to the Screw Attack. Does that mean you don't pick it up, or does it mean you can get it any time? Likewise, they never tell you to get Super Missiles. In fact, if you're going along the statue route, there's NOTHING stopping you from picking up the Brinstar Super before you fight Imago... it's even along the way! So what do you do about that? You can't argue that you're "supposed" to get the Imago Super first because you can't know that. The Brinstar one is perfectly accesable.

So, yeah, impossible.
Metroid Prime
2004-03-31 06:47:36 pm
Quote from Toozin:
As far as I'm concerned, this kind of run is impossible, because there's no real "sequence" in ZM.

Oh sure, you can use the Chozo statue route as an indication of what's "normal". But the statues never point you to the Screw Attack. Does that mean you don't pick it up, or does it mean you can get it any time? Likewise, they never tell you to get Super Missiles. In fact, if you're going along the statue route, there's NOTHING stopping you from picking up the Brinstar Super before you fight Imago... it's even along the way! So what do you do about that? You can't argue that you're "supposed" to get the Imago Super first because you can't know that. The Brinstar one is perfectly accesable.

So, yeah, impossible.


Well, a NON sequence breaking game would consist of NO sequence breaking, wich means no walljumps, or infinite bomb jumps.  So, technically, you would pick up the items when you go along the beaten path, just no sequence breaking.
Radix
2004-03-31 06:49:48 pm
Quote from MMcLean:
Well, a NON sequence breaking game would consist of NO sequence breaking, wich means no walljumps, or infinite bomb jumps.  So, technically, you would pick up the items when you go along the beaten path, just no sequence breaking.


Except you totally ignored the two issues Toozin brought up.  You do not need either of those to skip the screw attack or to get the brinstar super.
Dark_T_Zeratul
2004-03-31 06:57:05 pm
The statues don't lead you to the Screw Attack, no, but the "normal" path of the game DOES.
Toozin
2004-03-31 07:00:34 pm
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
Quote from Dark_T_Zeratul:
The statues don't lead you to the Screw Attack, no, but the "normal" path of the game DOES.

But there IS no "normal" path. You can easily skip the Screw Attack, get it early, or get it as your last item before Tourian. Nothing is stopping you from doing any of it. You can't even argue that getting/skipping it is unintended; it's clearly designed to be gotten or skipped at your leisure.
chinchillax13514
2004-03-31 11:17:57 pm
Well...maybe just no sequence breaking techniques. As in getting Varia before your supposed to or something. That would technically work...
Toozin
2004-04-01 01:21:38 am
Not impossible
just highly unlikely
Quote from chinchillax13514:
Well...maybe just no sequence breaking techniques. As in getting Varia before your supposed to or something. That would technically work...

Except when are you "supposed" to get Varia? They don't stop you from IBJ'ing. Several people from #metroid, in fact, got Varia early their very first time playing the game, and this was the very first day the rom came out. It's hard to call IBJ'ing a sequence breking technique when Nintendo Power tells you to do it.

The whole idea is just a little silly to me.
Bladegash
2004-04-01 01:26:04 am
And besides, you're never told what order you're supposed to get the missils, super missile, power bomb and energy tank expansions. How do you know you're not going to sequence break getting them when you do?
Pekod
2004-04-01 04:05:31 am
He's simply saying there are insoluble ambiguities associated with specifying a normal, expected order.  Some are cosmetic, and some are extremely significant.

After you specify what is or isn't a sequence break, (they don't exist in this game, as I said day 1) then you need to establish: when is the normal time to get a missle that is going to be off the beaten track no matter what? 

eg.  Should you pick up the missles between the brinstar columns early from the left, or quickly using the speed booster from the right?  It's even possible to get them without losing the charge you need to reach the supers further to the left.

Is using classy speed booster tricks to shave off seconds sequence breaking?

Should you pick up every optional item that is currently available, no matter how far out of the way, before picking up the next item that gives you more options?

What about items like the energy tank in the ceiling that has 3 different methods of aquiring?

I tried what you're talking about early on and it's really boring.

It would be cool if the emulator would count button presses, then you could do a speedrun with the minimum number of attacks or jumps.
SonicandTails218
2004-04-01 04:35:09 pm
I agree the definition is a little shaky, but I consider the "natural" course of the game to be the Chozos, and what someone would logically do their first time around, like the Missiles next to the Charge Beam, and the Imago Super Missiles. As for SBing, I'm thinking no SBing, but the techniques could be allowed as they help in speed, particularly in the Brinstar shafts before you get the high jump boots.

Also, I think the "order" is this:

Morph Ball>Long Beam>Missiles>Charge>Bombs>(Plasma)>Grip>Ice Beam>(Space Jump)>Speed Booster>High Jump>Varia>S. Missiles>(Grav. Suit)>Screw Attack>Full Power Suit>Power Bombs>End

If I got any thing wrong, or you think it is something else, please tell me.

Edit: Added SA, and PB's
Megafrost
2004-04-03 10:13:38 pm
I'd probably be willing to try such a run, although because I don't have this game for my GBA, it'd have to be on an emulator. And I generally don't like saving.

So the general rule would just be to get the major items in the order that someone new to metroid would get them?
Smops
2004-04-04 11:53:21 am
You forgot Screw Attack.
Megafrost
2004-04-04 05:38:05 pm
And power bomb as well.

Screw attack is probably after {gravity suit} and before fully powered suit, and of course power bomb is after fully powered suit but before the end...
SonicandTails218
2004-04-05 03:24:48 pm
I'm practicing to try it out, but until I get a Gamecube, it won't be an official speed run.

Also, in the course of playing I found out that in some ways, it is harder than a fast-as-you-can-go run, or a 100% run, since I'm not really trying to getany upgrades, I have 25 missiles, 3 E-tanks, and 8 S. Missiles. Also, not getting the Varia early or the Screw attack early makes for a much harder game in that respect.
Holy_Cow
2004-04-06 10:15:31 pm
I think this is a cool idea I really enjoyed the natural way better any way
Xin
2004-04-07 12:53:15 pm
Number of dumb "Non Sequence Breaking Run" topics I've seen: somewhere around 3 septillion