control panels needing a visor (spoilers)

2007-09-17 09:39:44 pm

Yeah, SW4 would let us get to the Leviathan without Hyper Grapple. Meanwhile skipping Hyper Grapple helps skip Nova, and skipping Nova helps skip Spider. Plus there's the possibility of accessing the mines without Spider.

As for getting out, I'm pretty much positive that that can be done by jumping sort of inside the hyper grapple thing and standing still to let the game pop you out of it onto the other side.

Actually, I'm gonna go try that wallcrawl again as soon as I manage to beat the Commander (thought of a possible new route).

BlueGlass

2007-09-17 09:50:44 pm

If we're hoping to use SW4 for skipping Spider, we first need a way to get Hazard shield without Spider.

kip

2007-09-17 09:54:54 pm

I was trying the same thing yesterday in main lift. I wanted to land in that opening above the door so I could space jump and morph to the spinners without spider. As with countless other situations, one jump doesn't get the height, 2bj would but 2bj has to be such a pain to get the human form jumps in this game..

Judging how boosting off the track won't place you there I'm guessing you can't stand on it, but guess it's hard to say for sure without AR or something.

As for defense access, I kept using spider to go to the top then jumped down at various spots trying to see if anything could stood on. Didn't have any luck with it.

Bit of a shame really, skipping spider I think would mean only 1 thing in the way for grapple voltage.. oddly enough that shield in command courtyard. Skipping both would make the homeworld route as smooth as something out of prime 1, going for nova first thing when you land. That's assuming all the important events would still trigger properly though.

SkippyJr

2007-09-18 12:38:50 am

In Defense Access you can springjump back into the MB tunnel and unmorph inside. Hoping for a SW there, I've tried SAing, SA bounce-back, and instant forward/reverse morphing into the higher part of the tunnel (without success so far). Someone else might have better luck.

BTW, there is a similar situation in Ice Bryyo. Getting the missile expansion there early (from the end of the spider maze) would make an excellent 100% speedtrick.

sp unit 262

2007-09-18 12:48:59 am

Quote from SkippyJr:

BTW, there is a similar situation in Ice Bryyo. Getting the missile expansion there early (from the end of the spider maze) would make an excellent 100% speedtrick.

It's an Energy Tank.

Aruki

2007-09-18 12:49:06 am

That's an energy tank in Ice Bryyo, not a missile expansion. :P I tried doing that a bit back, though. Was unsuccessful, but I think it might be doable with a BSJ + instant morph into the tunnel.

Fano7

2007-09-19 05:43:47 pm

Every Bit Counts

Any news on Hazard no Spider?

Sigfriedxx

2007-09-19 07:07:18 pm

um, Hazard has been skipped....

sp unit 262

2007-09-19 08:08:26 pm

Quote from Sigfriedxx:

um, Hazard has been skipped....

But, they're thinking that they can get bellow 22% if they can get the Hazard Shield w/o spider because they can use secret worlds in PH if they have Hazard.

Sigfriedxx

2007-09-19 10:06:38 pm

DOh, came in at the wrong time =)

Aruki

2007-09-23 12:36:40 pm

Quote from kip:

Putting aside the chances of getting the sequence right, how do you know that it even registers the symbol you pick without the visor?

Notice when you pick one, it doesn't tell you the symbol. It just shows a blank square. So maybe the "blank square" is considered an additional symbol, thus ensuring you get it wrong every time no matter what you actually picked.

So yesterday while I was trying to turn off the pirate defense systems, I went to the top of the room and starting inputting the thing in the X-ray panel. While I was in the middle of pressing the buttons, a pirate came up and threw a Phazon grenade at me, so I got corrupted, yet was still able to push the buttons and stuff. Everything (symbols I could pick and symbols I'd already picked) turned into the squares. So I guess you could test it by inputting three symbols, finding the fourth, waiting to get hit by a phazon grenade, then inputting the final symbol.

BlueGlass

2007-09-23 01:16:14 pm

I'll test that later today.

Because if it does work, all we'll need to skip xray is insane luck and a SW somewhere in the mines.

Aruki

2007-09-23 01:51:53 pm

An X-ray skip would probably be TAS only. I can't see it being done on a console. :\

BlueGlass

2007-09-23 03:38:56 pm

No luck so far. Those stupid troopers are refusing to grenade me.

sp unit 262

2007-09-24 01:49:44 am

Quote from BlueGlass:

No luck so far. Those stupid troopers are refusing to grenade me.

Even if it does work, that doesn't prove that it's possible. The game could check if the X-Ray Visor is on when generating the symbols, not when you press them. For example you get grenades on the third symbol and you correctly put it in, but when the game generates the symbol for the forth one it see you no longer have the X-Ray Visor on and only gives you garbage symbols. Dropping your 1 in 5 chance of guessing the code to a 0 in 5 chance. Or the game makes it possible to guessing the code, but only if the X-Ray Visor is in your inventory.

Tahngarthor

2007-09-24 04:36:48 am

Bangaa Bishop

Quote from sp unit 262:

For example you get grenades on the third symbol and you correctly put it in, but when the game generates the symbol for the forth one it see you no longer have the X-Ray Visor on and only gives you garbage symbols. Dropping your 1 in 5 chance of guessing the code to a 0 in 5 chance. Or the game makes it possible to guessing the code, but only if the X-Ray Visor is in your inventory.

Do you really think they'd think like this? I dont think they planned for you to be getting blown up while working these controls (seeing as it looks to be rather hard to make it happen in the first place).

I think its pretty likely from the previous posts that it isn't rigged against not having the visor, given the extremely low chance of guessing. It would take a *miracle* for someone to get it right in a short time, short of possibly exploiting the above issue with the grenades, and I think retro knows that. it's better to design something such that it cant realistically be defeated rather than to artifically block it, when possible.

[quote="sp unit 262"]For example you get grenades on the third symbol and you correctly put it in, but when the game generates the symbol for the forth one it see you no longer have the X-Ray Visor on and only gives you garbage symbols. Dropping your 1 in 5 chance of guessing the code to a 0 in 5 chance. Or the game makes it possible to guessing the code, but only if the X-Ray Visor is in your inventory.[/quote] Do you really think they'd think like this? I dont think they planned for you to be getting blown up while working these controls (seeing as it looks to be rather hard to make it happen in the first place).

I think its pretty likely from the previous posts that it isn't rigged against not having the visor, given the extremely low chance of guessing. It would take a *miracle* for someone to get it right in a short time, short of possibly exploiting the above issue with the grenades, and I think retro knows that. it's better to design something such that it cant realistically be defeated rather than to artifically block it, when possible.

nate

2007-09-24 11:53:30 am

Quote from Tahngarthor:

it's better to design something such that it cant realistically be defeated rather than to artifically block it, when possible.

if they look the same to the player, then why?

Tahngarthor

2007-09-24 01:49:59 pm

Bangaa Bishop

Quote from nate:

Quote from Tahngarthor:

it's better to design something such that it cant realistically be defeated rather than to artifically block it, when possible.

if they look the same to the player, then why?

Well, if you can tell, it pisses people off when they know and can tell that something should work, but has been artificially prevented. Easiest example was adding objects into the PC version of MP1 that really made no sense being there except to block sequence breaking. i.e. there's no logical explanation why this pile of rubble is here, especially considering there's no source for the rubble.

As you said though, when its NOT obvious that something is being blocked artifically, it doesnt really matter.

But in this case, when the object you designed requires hitting a lottery jackpot to bypass/exploit, would you bother adding extra code to say if he hasnt done this and doesnt have this thing, he cant get past? the almost nil chance is supposed to tell the player to come back later.

[quote="nate"][quote="Tahngarthor"]it's better to design something such that it cant realistically be defeated rather than to artifically block it, when possible.[/quote]
if they look the same to the player, then why?[/quote]
Well, [i]if[/i] you can tell, it pisses people off when they know and can tell that something [i]should[/i] work, but has been artificially prevented. Easiest example was adding objects into the PC version of MP1 that really made no sense being there except to block sequence breaking. i.e. there's no logical explanation why this pile of rubble is here, especially considering there's no source for the rubble.

As you said though, when its NOT obvious that something is being blocked artifically, it doesnt really matter.

But in this case, when the object you designed requires hitting a lottery jackpot to bypass/exploit, would you bother adding extra code to say if he hasnt done this and doesnt have this thing, he cant get past? the almost nil chance is supposed to tell the player to come back later.

nate

2007-09-24 01:53:11 pm

because the player can't tell and because it would be the smart thing to do to prevent people from doing it and breaking the game and making nintendo look bad.

arkarian

2007-09-24 04:08:03 pm

red chamber dream

Think of it like this: there was probably a bunch of stuff in Prime that was put in just to block Sequence Breaking (most games have stuff like that) that none of us have ever realized, since we've just accepted it as a logical part of the game (a ledge just barely too high, a rock somewhere, even the colored doors).

Tahngarthor

2007-09-24 04:47:40 pm

Bangaa Bishop

Quote from Arkarian:

Think of it like this: there was probably a bunch of stuff in Prime that was put in just to block Sequence Breaking (most games have stuff like that) that none of us have ever realized, since we've just accepted it as a logical part of the game (a ledge just barely too high, a rock somewhere, even the colored doors).

And speaking of that, some of the doors in prime3 defy logic- I think there are a few cases of plasma beam doors behind other plasma beam doors (i.e. you couldn't reach the second one without opening the first)

nate

2007-09-24 04:58:57 pm

only doesn't make sense if you think the only reason they have beam doors is to keep you out.

Prime Hunter

2007-09-24 06:44:14 pm

It's like something I noticed earlier today. The door in Fire Bryyo that if we could pass it would lead to Rundas earlier than the normal method is protected by an Ice Shield. However, once you have the Ice Missiles and come out that door back into the Gel Refinery Site, the Shield is missing and the door is now a normal Blue door.

That seems to me a deliberate attempt at stopping us cold, because how often do you expect normal players to get up to that ledge the first time they're in Gel Refinery Site? We can thanks to the Damage Boost trick, but still...

And the door thing goes all the way back to Super Metroid. They have super missile doors far into the game when you should have gotten the item long before then. (Same with missile doors and power bomb doors.) I think at this point I've accepted that fact, and in this case it's not as much of an issue because the beams stack.

Aruki

2007-09-24 06:58:00 pm

It's just like Echoes - when you open a door with a shield from the back, the shield disappears.

arkarian

2007-09-24 07:59:44 pm

red chamber dream

I actually never thought that was an issue. I always thought of them as security doors-- orange ones lead to areas that require higher security than rooms with blue doors would.