Certain destruction or new era of success?

2004-04-28 02:55:08 pm

Is metroid series already on a sure path of destruction and oblivion? When i think about the recent 2D-metroid releases (metroid fusion, zero mission) it really makes me wonder if those are really the best they can do? Fusion was a failure, sure i finished it once but that was enough for me since i just couldn't make myself play it through again even though how hard i tried. Zero mission was a hell a lot better than fusion but i know they could have done a LOT better that just a remake with a couple of new things added.

For now metroid prime is the sole savior of the series but things arent looking too good for prime either. Since at least half of the people ive seen NEVER even cared about traditional metroid values such as exploration and freedom, all they want is another action fps!

What do you people here think? Sure destruction of the great series or new success?

I'm sorry if this thread seems trolling or flaming because this was not the intention behind the thought of this thread. I also apologize if such thread has already been made.

Thread title:

Is metroid series already on a sure path of destruction and oblivion? When i think about the recent 2D-metroid releases (metroid fusion, zero mission) it really makes me wonder if those are really the best they can do? Fusion was a failure, sure i finished it once but that was enough for me since i just couldn't make myself play it through again even though how hard i tried. Zero mission was a hell a lot better than fusion but i know they could have done a LOT better that just a remake with a couple of new things added.

For now metroid prime is the sole savior of the series but things arent looking too good for prime either. Since at least half of the people ive seen NEVER even cared about traditional metroid values such as exploration and freedom, all they want is another action fps! 
 
What do you people here think? Sure destruction of the great series or new success?
 
I'm sorry if this thread seems trolling or flaming because this was not the intention behind the thought of this thread. I also apologize if such thread has already been made.

=Prime Killer=

2004-04-28 03:07:59 pm

I TOTTALY get your point,Metroid 2-D's are failing. Prime and Echoes are what Newbies want,since Die-hard fans still play even MII.Newbies want top-of-the-line action 3-d's,and die-hards still want 2-D's.

DominicanZero

2004-04-28 03:15:13 pm

直死の魔眼使い

It all depends on your age. If you're from the silver or golden ages of gaming (mid 80's - late 90's), you'll be wanting a return to our roots, a 2D fully explorable game. If you're one of those (mostly) senseless n00bs, you'll be wanting an action FPS that has nothing to do with the original concept. Personally, with the remarkable exception of Final Fantasy 8 and MegaMan X7, I prefer a 2D game any day.

MegaMyke

2004-04-28 03:34:02 pm

Megaman X7 gave me a sour taste in my mouth Because It wasn't fully 3D or 2D, and they tried to make 2D look 3D when it was fine all along. And that's what i think most games are becoming now, more of a show of what can be done rather than what should be done... Such as games where all the developers seem to want you to see is Impressive graphics and realism. Wasn't it some of the underdogs with only able-to-be-used graphics and not at all realistic that inspired us and made us want to purr whenever we heard about it? Maybe I'm not a good point-giver but i think you can understand what i mean.... I lost track of the topic didn't I...?

MetalRidley

2004-04-28 04:51:34 pm

Well, I happened to like MZM, with all the neat puzzles and ways to play. And Fusion... wasn't a bad game... just not a good example of a metroid game. It revolutionized the 2d metroids, though, with things like grabbing on to ledges, an updated shinespark that made some devious new puzzles, and a much more fluid and responsive control system. (for me anyway). If the 2ds continue to improve, we could see a better one than super. Oh, it's possible.

And I don't consider prime to be pandering to the LCD of gamers. First person is just the best way to do a 3d shooter, and it works and plays really well, and quite faithfully to the series, I think.

Just my opinion, but I think the metroid series is on an uphill trend after fusion.

I aM A mAnO

2004-04-28 06:39:38 pm

Um... I was addicted to MZM like crazy, i have beaten it like 10 times at least, and i still like to play it a lot. I dislike the computer from Fusion telling you what to do, but the game itself was very fun, and i played through that one probably 4 times and I still play it now and then. Prime I played through about 2 and a half times and was really into it for awhile. If I could go back with my knowledge of what they were like, I would go out and buy them all again, I think they were all good games. If Metroid continues its path, I'm going to continue buying the games, because it is by far my favorite series.

Electrometer Prime

2004-04-28 08:00:45 pm

I may be young(14) But I love the 2Ds alot more than FPS. They are pretty much the kind of games that I have gotten used to and enjoyed. All the n00bs seem interested in FPS.(I know this because I did a survey on how many people like the 2D gaming and my results for that were way too low)

chinchillax13514

2004-04-29 01:56:05 am

I think it's about the game and system. 2D is good, 3D is too. However, 2D side scrolling is clearly better for Game Boy, and 3D FP works well on Gamecube. n00bs do like Prime more, but really, why should we care. As long as the games keep coming.

Rox

2004-04-30 04:45:33 am

Everything has to fall eventually. In the case of Final Fantasy, it was long ago. In the case of MegaMan, it was still years ago. As for Metroid and Zelda... it'll happen in a very near future. The next Zelda game or the one after will be horrible compared to what people are used to. Same with Metroid. There's just nothing that can be done about it.

The developers can decide to reuse what they know works, over and over again. Downside with that is, if nothing new is brought into each game, it's all just repetition, and that won't work for long. On the other hand, they can keep adding new features, aspects of gameplay, slowly morphing the gameplay into something different with each game. This is a great way of keeping good games alive, except most people seem to hate when their favorite series is about to change.

Everything falls, it's just a matter of time. With the new puzzles and gameplay twists in Zero Mission, and the whole new look for Prime 2: Echoes, Metroid is being taken in a new direction. It's either that, or complete and sudden shut-down once there's nothing new that can be done. And I think we all prefer the first alternative.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride.

Everything has to fall eventually. In the case of Final Fantasy, it was long ago. In the case of MegaMan, it was still years ago. As for Metroid and Zelda... it'll happen in a very near future. The next Zelda game or the one after will be horrible compared to what people are used to. Same with Metroid. There's just nothing that can be done about it.

The developers can decide to reuse what they know works, over and over again. Downside with that is, if nothing new is brought into each game, it's all just repetition, and that won't work for long. On the other hand, they can keep adding new features, aspects of gameplay, slowly morphing the gameplay into something different with each game. This is a great way of keeping good games alive, except most people seem to hate when their favorite series is about to change.

Everything falls, it's just a matter of time. With the new puzzles and gameplay twists in Zero Mission, and the whole new look for Prime 2: Echoes, Metroid is being taken in a new direction. It's either that, or complete and sudden shut-down once there's nothing new that can be done. And I think we all prefer the first alternative.

Just sit back, and enjoy the ride.

skynes

2004-04-30 06:01:04 am

I actually prefer 2D Metroids. I started on Super, then played Fusion and seriously, 2D is the best for Metroid - Zero Mission. Those two words are my argument.

2D is easier to program, simpler graphics so it can be bigger. There's just something about 2D Metroids that a 3D just can't fill!

chinchillax13514

2004-04-30 09:44:21 pm

Fusion I think was one of the things they tried to take it in a new direction. Of course, most hardcore fans didn't like it, so they went back to Super Metroid style with ZM. I have to say, within the next three games including Echoes, it's gonna die. Zelda will probably have their last great game with Wind Waker. The others will be good, but not great. It seems like the hardcore fans can't be pleased. Something new they hate, and so it's changed back, but then they get bored with repetition. Personally, I thought Fusion was a good game. But hey, that's me...

Chozo-Ghost

2004-05-01 04:21:38 am

You forget that the majority of gamers aren't Hardcore.

Or you must first define what you understand by "Hardcore".

I liked Fusion, played it through 2 times, thats enough.
The newer Metroids are even better (than Fusion).
I think it is absolutely ok to try new things, if I really want Supers gameplay, I play Super. And honestly, Zero mission nearly IS Super.

Sure they can do mistakes by changing the "formula", but they have to try it sooner or later.

MetalRidley

2004-05-01 10:19:11 am

I agree. I think that the new thingies (MP, MZM's stealth, wind waker's look, SMS's water cannon) are things Nintendo's adding to make sure the franchises don't get stale. Those titles show how old ideas can look brand new with some originality put into them.

And honestly, has anyone ever gotten bored with a Zelda game looking for the bow? Even with WW's look, it's still fundamentally the same as ever, and I'm happy.

GreenMamba

2004-05-01 04:12:07 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

The problem is, as I see it, the two opposing groups of gamers--the hardcore hardcores who don't want anything changed at all, and the ones who whine when there isn't enough difference.

Nintendo can't satisfy them both equally, but they usually seem to be leaning toward changing. (at least, more than Capcom does)

chinchillax13514

2004-05-01 04:36:23 pm

Quote from GreenMamba:

The problem is, as I see it, the two opposing groups of gamers--the hardcore hardcores who don't want anything changed at all, and the ones who whine when there isn't enough difference.

Nintendo can't satisfy them both equally, but they usually seem to be leaning toward changing. (at least, more than Capcom does)

It's probably because there's more people who want change. I'm not really either way. I like having some new things, but keeping it the same is great too. That's why I still haven't gotten tired of Zero Mission.

GreenMamba

2004-05-01 04:41:05 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

Of course, often times when Nintendo does make some sort of change, quite a few people just see at some sort of "gimmick." (i.e.--cel shading in WW, FLUDD in SMS)

Chet Rippo

2004-05-02 08:42:54 pm

Quote from GreenMamba:

Of course, often times when Nintendo does make some sort of change, quite a few people just see at some sort of "gimmick." (i.e.--cel shading in WW, FLUDD in SMS)

FLUDD isn't the only thing cel shaded in SMS. The characters are too. Cel shading is a cool 8) change of pace.

GreenMamba

2004-05-02 09:29:50 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

Quote from Chet Rippo:

Quote from GreenMamba:

Of course, often times when Nintendo does make some sort of change, quite a few people just see at some sort of "gimmick." (i.e.--cel shading in WW, FLUDD in SMS)

FLUDD isn't the only thing cel shaded in SMS. The characters are too. Cel shading is a cool 8) change of pace.

.

The cel shading in WW and FLUDD in SMS were two completely different thoughts, but sure. Whatever flaots your boat.

Thanatos

2004-05-06 09:14:44 pm

The problem with the 2d franchise is a large portion of ideas have been explored (no pun intended). You can only have so many beams that all do something slightly different. You can only have so many items, since most of the bases are covered.

High jump ---> space jump ---> screw attack ---> jet pack? (hover in air for several seconds?)

Missiles --->Super missiles ---> diffusion?

Morph ball ---> spring ball ---> ???

Bomb ---> super bomb ---> ??? (more bombs/time?)

Running shoes?(dash ability) ----> Speed boots

I mean, save a few independant upgrades, like PG and x-ray, I can't think of many other ways to expand to new items without encrouching on other items already in the game. I personally would love to see a 2d metroid for the cube that couldn't be beat in under 5 hours. There just aren't enough items to cover it all and make it interesting. You could only add so many suits or beams before it all becomes "wow, yet another beam upgrade. "

3d on the other hand is new, and has so many abilities that could be implemented, even without speed boost and space jump.

The problem with the 2d franchise is a large portion of ideas have been explored (no pun intended).  You can only have so many beams that all do something slightly different.  You can only have so many items, since most of the bases are covered.

High jump ---> space jump ---> screw attack ---> jet pack? (hover  in air for several seconds?)

Missiles --->Super missiles ---> diffusion?

Morph ball ---> spring ball ---> ???

Bomb ---> super bomb ---> ???  (more bombs/time?)

Running shoes?(dash ability) ----> Speed boots

I mean, save a few independant upgrades, like PG and x-ray, I can't think of many other ways to expand to new items without encrouching on other items already in the game. I personally would love to see a 2d metroid for the cube that couldn't be beat in under 5 hours. There just aren't enough items to cover it all and make it interesting. You could only add so many suits or beams before it all becomes "wow, yet another beam upgrade. "

3d on the other hand is new, and has so many abilities that could be implemented, even without speed boost and space jump.

Chet Rippo

2004-05-06 09:25:09 pm

Quote from Thanatos:

The problem with the 2d franchise is a large portion of ideas have been explored (no pun intended). You can only have so many beams that all do something slightly different. You can only have so many items, since most of the bases are covered.

High jump ---> space jump ---> screw attack ---> jet pack? (hover in air for several seconds?)

Missiles --->Super missiles ---> diffusion?

Morph ball ---> spring ball ---> ???

Bomb ---> super bomb ---> ??? (more bombs/time?)

Running shoes?(dash ability) ----> Speed boots

I mean, save a few independant upgrades, like PG and x-ray, I can't think of many other ways to expand to new items without encrouching on other items already in the game. I personally would love to see a 2d metroid for the cube that couldn't be beat in under 5 hours. There just aren't enough items to cover it all and make it interesting. You could only add so many suits or beams before it all becomes "wow, yet another beam upgrade. "

3d on the other hand is new, and has so many abilities that could be implemented, even without speed boost and space jump.

Okay... just what are you saying? the 3D metroids (which MP is the only one) just took the 2D weapons and made them go 3D. And what are you talking about jetpack? and running shoes? Diffusion missiles were quite lame, but that is why they aren't in MZM.

[quote="Thanatos"]The problem with the 2d franchise is a large portion of ideas have been explored (no pun intended).  You can only have so many beams that all do something slightly different.  You can only have so many items, since most of the bases are covered.

High jump ---> space jump ---> screw attack ---> jet pack? (hover  in air for several seconds?)

Missiles --->Super missiles ---> diffusion?

Morph ball ---> spring ball ---> ???

Bomb ---> super bomb ---> ???  (more bombs/time?)

Running shoes?(dash ability) ----> Speed boots

I mean, save a few independant upgrades, like PG and x-ray, I can't think of many other ways to expand to new items without encrouching on other items already in the game. I personally would love to see a 2d metroid for the cube that couldn't be beat in under 5 hours. There just aren't enough items to cover it all and make it interesting. You could only add so many suits or beams before it all becomes "wow, yet another beam upgrade. "

3d on the other hand is new, and has so many abilities that could be implemented, even without speed boost and space jump.[/quote]

Okay... just what are you saying?  the 3D metroids (which MP is the only one) just took the 2D weapons and made them go 3D.  And what are you talking about jetpack? and running shoes?  Diffusion missiles were quite lame, but that is why they aren't in MZM.

Kharay1977

2004-05-07 04:23:16 am

In my humble opinion the transition to 3D is only natural and normal. 2D side-scrolling games are a thing of the past, especially with the current power consoles. It would just be an abuse of processing power to do something 2D on a machine that wouldn't have trouble doing a 5D (*grins silly*).
Anyhow... Metroid Prime and the 3D environment it features has a problem though... it is almost impossible to envision a Screw Attack/Space Jump in a 3D environment. Which is why it wasn't done in MP. Which is a sad thing actually. Screw and Space Jump are amongst the coolest and most useful moves in the entire series.
But, just try and imagine Screw and Space Jump in a 3D First Person environment. Wouldn't work. So, if they continue the path of 3D Metroids, we can safely assume Screw and Space Jump are 'gone'.

Unless they find some interesting and working solution to an obvious problem.

Wassup Dawgs

2004-05-07 04:40:47 am

Quote from Kharay:

Unless they find some interesting and working solution to an obvious problem.

Do the same thing they do with morph ball mode.

Kharay1977

2004-05-07 07:53:28 am

Quote from Wassup Dawgs:

Quote from Kharay:

Unless they find some interesting and working solution to an obvious problem.

Do the same thing they do with morph ball mode.

Eeeehmm... the morph ball mode is something entirely different to 'tackle'. I mean, basically it is the same concept as normal form. Since it is just an entity moving about in a 3D environment. Space Jump and Screw are an entirely different problem alltogether. If you look closely, you will notice in ZM and Super (which are the clearest viewable in the Screw/Space Jump aspect) that Samus turns lengthwise. She does headrolls, so to speak. Consecutive headrolls in the air, she does salto's. Now, translate that to a first person view. You'd become naucious. Sick to the stomach. Actually it's a miracle Samus doesn't un-eat everything she's had for dinner, any time she does a Screw Attack.
Anyhow, I really hope Nintendo and Retro manage to find some solution to it. Because it would be nice to see Screw return in the upcoming successor to MP. Right?

[quote="Wassup Dawgs"][quote="Kharay"]Unless they find some interesting and working solution to an obvious problem.[/quote]
Do the same thing they do with morph ball mode.[/quote]Eeeehmm... the morph ball mode is something entirely different to 'tackle'. I mean, basically it is the same concept as normal form. Since it is just an entity moving about in a 3D environment. Space Jump and Screw are an entirely different problem alltogether. If you look closely, you will notice in ZM and Super (which are the clearest viewable in the Screw/Space Jump aspect) that Samus turns lengthwise. She does headrolls, so to speak. Consecutive headrolls in the air, she does salto's. Now, translate that to a first person view. You'd become naucious. Sick to the stomach. Actually it's a miracle Samus doesn't un-eat everything she's had for dinner, any time she does a Screw Attack.
Anyhow, I really hope Nintendo and Retro manage to find some solution to it. Because it would be nice to see Screw return in the upcoming successor to MP. Right?

DominicanZero

2004-05-07 10:05:27 am

直死の魔眼使い

Were the perspective to be kept the same as if you were using the Morph Ball, you could perfectly recreate the Space Jump and the Screw Attack. The camera would go behind you, and you'd have no trouble seeing where you're going, since you can perfectly see (over Samus) what's ahead of you.

As for me, I already said it. With the notable exceptions of Final Fantasy 8 and MegaMan X7 (and maybe MegaMan Legends), die 3D games. Twisted Evil

HeroWolf

2004-05-07 04:38:56 pm

im 12 and i like the 2d ones because there the best and if they go how metroid fusion went were screwed and i dont like the 3d ones alot to confusing i would have to beat it alot of times