Best Times

2007-06-29 02:09:36 pm

Almost happy

Hmm LN with 2 e-tanks, It would save ~5 seconds of in game time and ~15-20 seconds of realtime so thats interesting, would i still be able to reach the elite pirates with more then 29 hp? If so it would probably be better to skip that tank since it would have no real purpose in a TAS but to keep you from that nasty health only drop alarm.

Anyway, I wasn't able to do the moozooh jump, i guess it recuires subpixel optimization, I was realy close a couple of times, less then a pixel away i think. Aside from that I have done most of the things moozooh did in his WIP with occasional modifications on stuff i could not handle.

All in all I gained ~450 frames on my old run up till Torizo and with the skip im already 1800 ahead. Meaning 26 is already obtained and 25 is very possible. Although now the rerecord count is getting ridiculus.

moozooh

2007-06-29 02:35:44 pm

Quote from Cpadolf:

Anyway, I wasn't able to do the moozooh jump, i guess it recuires subpixel optimization, I was realy close a couple of times, less then a pixel away i think.

Rather, it requires a certain balance of horizontal and vertical speed to be able to enter the gap at a certain angle. Personally, I wouldn't suggest doing that in a run that doesn't strive for meticulous optimization, unless you really want to.

Quote from Cpadolf:

All in all I gained ~450 frames on my old run up till Torizo and with the skip im already 1800 ahead. Meaning 26 is already obtained and 25 is very possible.

That's pretty nice, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I hope you will be able to reach pretty low 25 (or even high 24) with this route.

hero of the day

2007-06-29 02:39:09 pm

With 2 full energy tanks, you will have more than enough energy to complete lower norfair. Attached is a technique that eliminates one of the shinesparks and will save ~70 hp. Also you can skip doing the shinespark in the big acid room, and do it the same way that JXQ does in his run. So you will have plenty of hp left by the time you reach the elite pirates.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1573475428/pillar_breakin.smv

Cpadolf

2007-06-29 03:29:06 pm

Almost happy

But I wonder, if I have a full 300 hp upon entering the big acid room and does that room like JXQ I will have 250 hp left, minus what it takes to do that shinecharge ~180. And since I won't need to take more damage after that except from the spikes in the kagoball room I would still have enough hp left. But then again, which of the 2 pillar room strats is fastest? The one you posted has lower speed but don't have the 3 second cooldown.

Heh 24 would be sweet but I'm not hoping for to much Wink

Then again I don't know how much faster the new route is...

Saturn

2007-06-30 05:27:06 am

Quote from hero of the day:

Do you suggest that he pick up the high jump boots before the speed booster, or after? Getting the highjump early seems kinda slow because you have to fall all the way down the shaft and then make your way back up. Where if you collect it after the speed booster, it is literally right on the way.

It was pretty close and required some testing, but collecting the boots early will be only slightly slower (it's definitely not much as moozooh said), despite the detour. You will gain alot of frames during the Norfair items collection, and lose only a few in the rooms moozooh mentioned. Still, by optimizing the run well, it will be slightly faster to collect the HJ-Boots after Wave Beam and Speed Booster, which is what I did in my WIP. Only problem will be the low energy after WS you have to deal with. When I got to the HJ-Boots area I had exactly 30 HP left, which is the limit to still get ammo refills, so health management will be very important during the 1st Norfair tour.

Quote from hero of the day:

Also, do you know the fastest way of killing the elite pirates in ridley's lair? Does the speed echo attack save time or did you just use it in your RBO due to weapon constraints?

The shinespark technique is around 100 frames slower than the Super Missile tech, but gives you much more Supers for Ridley. In RBO it is faster to use it, since I used a CF after the LN entrance, and thus had 10 Supers less than the full amount allows. Having more Supers at Ridley will save much more time than this 100 frames delay. But since you won't need to CF and therefore have almost full Supers amount, using the Super Missile kill only with good refill drop manipulation will be faster in your run, and you should still gain max amount of Supers from the refills.

In the in-game oriented any% you have Plasma anyway, so the shinespark tech is not a issue anymore.

And yeah, I forgot to mention that I will skip Kraids tank. The delay is around 3 sec, and LN shouldn't give many problems if you manage your health amount well.

Quote from Cpadolf:

But then again, which of the 2 pillar room strats is fastest?

Shinespark tech is around 30 frames faster, despite the crash at the end. I still didn't decide whether to skip it for 70 more HP or avoid some damage boosts later. It needs to be tested.

Also by getting a 48'70 Ceres escape time you already surpassed flatley. Continuing in that quality you should easily get 0:25, or even 0:24. In the latter case you would be the first person who ever gets this time, as all the other current TASes will take some time to finish, since we optimize the runs much more. :)

[quote="hero of the day"]Do you suggest that he pick up the high jump boots before the speed booster, or after? Getting the highjump early seems kinda slow because you have to fall all the way down the shaft and then make your way back up. Where if you collect it after the speed booster, it is literally right on the way.[/quote]
It was pretty close and required some testing, but collecting the boots early will be only slightly slower (it's definitely not much as moozooh said), despite the detour. You will gain alot of frames during the Norfair items collection, and lose only a few in the rooms moozooh mentioned. Still, by optimizing the run well, it will be slightly faster to collect the HJ-Boots after Wave Beam and Speed Booster, which is what I did in my WIP. Only problem will be the low energy after WS you have to deal with. When I got to the HJ-Boots area I had exactly 30 HP left, which is the limit to still get ammo refills, so health management will be very important during the 1st Norfair tour.

[quote="hero of the day"]Also, do you know the fastest way of killing the elite pirates in ridley's lair? Does the speed echo attack save time or did you just use it in your RBO due to weapon constraints?[/quote]
The shinespark technique is around 100 frames slower than the Super Missile tech, but gives you much more Supers for Ridley. In RBO it is faster to use it, since I used a CF after the LN entrance, and thus had 10 Supers less than the full amount allows. Having more Supers at Ridley will save much more time than this 100 frames delay. But since you won't need to CF and therefore have almost full Supers amount, using the Super Missile kill only with good refill drop manipulation will be faster in your run, and you should still gain max amount of Supers from the refills.

In the in-game oriented any% you have Plasma anyway, so the shinespark tech is not a issue anymore.

And yeah, I forgot to mention that I will skip Kraids tank. The delay is around 3 sec, and LN shouldn't give many problems if you manage your health amount well.

[quote="Cpadolf"]But then again, which of the 2 pillar room strats is fastest?[/quote]
Shinespark tech is around 30 frames faster, despite the crash at the end. I still didn't decide whether to skip it for 70 more HP or avoid some damage boosts later. It needs to be tested.

Also by getting a 48'70 Ceres escape time you already surpassed flatley. Continuing in that quality you should easily get 0:25, or even 0:24. In the latter case you would be the first person who ever gets this time, as all the other current TASes will take some time to finish, since we optimize the runs much more. :)

Cpadolf

2007-06-30 06:21:18 am

Almost happy

Quote from Saturn:

Continuing in that quality you should easily get 0:25, or even 0:24. In the latter case you would be the first person who ever gets this time, as all the other current TASes will take some time to finish, since we optimize the runs much more

Heh Im quite aware of that, first ever 24 would be sweet, though ofcourse not more impressive then heros 25 but still.

Anyway I managed to get the 5 missiles pretty smoothly, though moozooh surely has a better strat.
I had to stop two times in the diagonal shaft, kill the first enemy, wait ~7 frames run 2 missiles, do the same with the next enemy 4 missiles, then run to the bottom use 3 missiles to kill the two flying enemies and open the blue door, 5 missiles.

Besides, who is michel flately? Besides inventing some nifty tricks i have know idea what person people are constantly refering to...

[quote="Saturn"]Continuing in that quality you should easily get 0:25, or even 0:24. In the latter case you would be the first person who ever gets this time, as all the other current TASes will take some time to finish, since we optimize the runs much more[/quote]

Heh Im quite aware of that, first ever 24 would be sweet, though ofcourse not more impressive then heros 25 but still.

Anyway I managed to get the 5 missiles pretty smoothly, though moozooh surely has a better strat.
I had to stop two times in the diagonal shaft, kill the first enemy, wait ~7 frames run 2 missiles, do the same with the next enemy 4 missiles, then run to the bottom use 3 missiles to kill the two flying enemies and open the blue door, 5 missiles.

Besides, who is michel flately? Besides inventing some nifty tricks i have know idea what person people are constantly refering to...

Saturn

2007-06-30 06:51:14 am

Quote from Cpadolf:

Besides, who is michel flately? Besides inventing some nifty tricks i have know idea what person people are constantly refering to...

Look here for his story:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1925

He was the first person of the new generation Super Metroid TAS, and invented the arm-pumping and Phantoon one round kill for example. He started to work on a 100% run, but disappeared from the scene because of marriage. His latest 100% WIP can be downloaded here:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/33/MF_M3_WreckedShip1.smv

He did a route mistake by not collecting the Grapple and the Ice Beam, which would make him stuck at Springball at Maridia. Maybe it was one of the reasons for the cancel when he realized that...

Cpadolf

2007-06-30 04:00:36 pm

Almost happy

New generation, what tricks would really define this generation of TASing SM? Armpunp, supershortcharge and phantoon 1 round or is there something else?

P.JMan

2007-06-30 04:08:06 pm

I like Big Butts and I can not lie

Pretty much this
http://tasvideos.org/SuperMetroidTricks.html?rev=15

hero of the day

2007-06-30 04:30:13 pm

The "new" generation refers to every trick listed on that page which was not included in Terimakasih's run.

TheCheruben

2007-06-30 07:38:29 pm

Is there a way to turn an .smv file into something i can share here?
Also, i cannot find the Metroid Limit thread(s) but really thought i saw one here before.

BioSpark

2007-06-30 07:59:42 pm

Just post the .smv

Cpadolf

2007-06-30 08:50:45 pm

Almost happy

Yea, .smv files is pretty much the only movie files we share at this site.

Saturn

2007-07-01 09:37:33 am

Although I didn't plan to do that, the discussion about the any% game completion using the best in-game route finally got me very interested to find out what time is reachable with it. I picked my cancelled WIP and continued it from Draygon on, in a compared to my usual TASing, crappy quality (but still without any major slowdowns or mistakes). I finished the run in just one day, and got a low 0:24 (note that I didn't skip Torizo in that run).

This makes one thing definitely clear:

A 0:22 will never be possible!
(even not with the Torizo skip)

A 0:23 is easily reachable with the Torizo skip, and still (although very close) possible even without.

To be honest, I expected that getting 0:23 would be much easier than it actually is. I only got a low 0:24 because my WIP was pretty much optimized and near frame perfect all the time till Draygon already. Because of this fact, I now have some doubts that you, Cpadolf, will be able to get 0:24. It would only be possible with pretty good optimization. Consider this a hard challenge if you really want to get 0:24 nevertheless. :)

Although I didn't plan to do that, the discussion about the any% game completion using the best in-game route finally got me very interested to find out what time is reachable with it. I picked my cancelled WIP and continued it from Draygon on, in a compared to my usual TASing, crappy quality (but still without any major slowdowns or mistakes). I finished the run in just one day, and got a low 0:24 (note that I didn't skip Torizo in that run).

This makes one thing definitely clear:

[size=18px][b]A 0:22 will never be possible![/b][/size]
(even not with the Torizo skip)

A 0:23 is easily reachable with the Torizo skip, and still (although very close) possible even without.

To be honest, I expected that getting 0:23 would be much easier than it actually is. I only got a low 0:24 because my WIP was pretty much optimized and near frame perfect all the time till Draygon already. Because of this fact, I now have some doubts that you, Cpadolf, will be able to get 0:24. It would only be possible with pretty good optimization. Consider this a hard challenge if you really want to get 0:24 nevertheless. :)

hero of the day

2007-07-01 11:33:01 am

wow, that is pretty cool to hear Saturn.

I would have thought that a 23 would certainly require the torizo skip, if possible it at all. I am amazed that is was so easily reachable. This puts the theoretical best time at around 23:30? Just out of curiosity, what was your final .smv time?

Saturn

2007-07-01 12:01:48 pm

Smv real-time was 41:40'73. Pretty good considering the many realtime delays, I think.

I would say the absolute limit is something like 23:35, and I'm not even 100% sure if a 0:23 is really possible without Torizo skip. I would have to gain around 15 sec in my crappy test run in order to do so. Whether it's possible or not, is something I can't say. Fact is that the Ridley fight was the worst part of the run, as I didn't care to optimize the final KO grab, and thus lost at least 5 sec there alone.

If 0:23 is possible without the Torizo skip, it will definitely be extremely close.

Cpadolf

2007-07-01 01:52:14 pm

Almost happy

Heh I wasn't ever really expecting to get a 24, I thought of it as a happy surprise if it would happen but I didn't think it would be possible.

I'm up to phantoon now and are currently still ~12 seconds ahead of hero's run, meaning that I have been ~10 seconds slower up till this point (Torizo skip + fast crateria lake ~22 seconds-)

And OMG is phantoon 1 round a bitch or what, I doubt that I will be able to do it at all and will most likely give up eventually and do 2-round. I even had to redo 1 minute of the run to get a supermissile from the cactus enemies in the RedBrinstar shaft because it was impossible to luckmanipulate a Supermissile drop from phantoon. Or well it was impossible until I had that super with me...

How much faster is this route anyway, compared to terris?

Sounds like we need another of those not so rare SM breakthroughs to reach 22... But I doubt there would be anything left to break now.

Saturn

2007-07-01 02:26:55 pm

Quote from Cpadolf:

How much faster is this route anyway, compared to terris?

As said before, around 10 sec (5+ for early WS and another 5 by using the shortcut through Maridia instead of green Brinstar when going to Tourian), provided playing both routes on same quality of course.

Also I hope you skip the Spazer. It's actually pretty much same fast, since the collection detour of 10 sec gets cut out by using Murder Beam on MB later, but skipping Spazer will save much more realtime, and make a much better MB fight to watch. And you won't need to enter the menu even once that way (to switch to Wave Beam for Botwoon and Draygon), saving the annoying pauses of it.

Cpadolf

2007-07-01 03:57:10 pm

Almost happy

Just out of curiosity, if you remember the numbers. How many rerecords did you use up till draygon and how many after, as in how much less optimized was the part after.

hero of the day

2007-07-01 04:33:07 pm

Cpadolf,

the phantoon 1 round is really easy once you get the right rhythm down. How many missiles do you have in stock?
Here is how to do it with 3 missiles packs:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1178357087/phantoon3pack.smv

Here is how to do it with 2 missiles packs: (slower in-game time)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/12635425/2pack.smv

Essentially all you need to do is hold down the turbo button for the missiles, and then start a nice smooth shudder walk. If you want, I would be willing to play that phantoon segment for you.

Cpadolf

2007-07-01 05:06:16 pm

Almost happy

Well I will at least try it out for a while longer and see if I can get it to work first. I have 13 missiles in stock I think so 3 missile drops is needed. There are two parts about it that are troublesome, first I need not only luckmanipulate 3 missile drops but they must also be in the way so I run in to them. Second it seems kind of random if the quick kill works at all. Some times phantoon disappears after just a couple of missiles and sometimes he stays for a while but disappears after ~10. I see that in your videos you do slower stutter walk the closer you get to him, is that something that needs to be done AI do you need to do faster stutter walk in the beginning to make him stay?

hero of the day

2007-07-01 06:19:29 pm

phantoon will disappear if there is too much of a gap in between the missiles making contact. With 13 missiles, you should be able to maintain the same shudder walk speed throughout. In the 2 pack demonstration, I had to slow down the shudder walk or else I would have ran into phantoon before killing him. I don't really know what other advice to give, but you should be able to pretty much copy the same techniques I used in the 3 pack demonstration.

Saturn

2007-07-01 06:29:34 pm

Quote from Cpadolf:

Just out of curiosity, if you remember the numbers. How many rerecords did you use up till draygon and how many after, as in how much less optimized was the part after.

87053 till Draygon with all rooms crazy optimized, and probably more than 80% of them frame-perfect. The rest of the run till the finish took me only 4360 rerecords, making it a total of 91413 now.

Don't be shocked about such a low count for a whole half of the run. Having tested alot ahead, and general long-time TASing experience for this game, I just had to pull off the known moves without experimenting too much. Quality is definitely not as bad as the rerecord count in comparison. :)

EDIT:
Regarding Phantoon, you have to adapt your distance to him when shooting to not get him disappear. Not too fast, and not too slow. Like hero said, if you can keep the gap between Missiles pretty evenly, it should work well. Just experiment around with the shutter walk to get the right moving speed in every moment of the Missile Wave.

[quote="Cpadolf"]Just out of curiosity, if you remember the numbers. How many rerecords did you use up till draygon and how many after, as in how much less optimized was the part after.[/quote]
87053 till Draygon with all rooms crazy optimized, and probably more than 80% of them frame-perfect. The rest of the run till the finish took me only 4360 rerecords, making it a total of 91413 now.

Don't be shocked about such a low count for a whole half of the run. Having tested alot ahead, and general long-time TASing experience for this game, I just had to pull off the known moves without experimenting too much. Quality is definitely not as bad as the rerecord count in comparison. :)

EDIT:
Regarding Phantoon, you have to adapt your distance to him when shooting to not get him disappear. Not too fast, and not too slow. Like hero said, if you can keep the gap between Missiles pretty evenly, it should work well. Just experiment around with the shutter walk to get the right moving speed in every moment of the Missile Wave.

Cpadolf

2007-07-01 07:41:37 pm

Almost happy

Ok I'll fiddle around with phantoon tomorrow then and hope for the best.

Quote from Saturn:

87053 till Draygon with all rooms crazy optimized, and probably more than 80% of them frame-perfect

Hmm, your the kind of guy who like to do 1 TAS and no more right?... :P

Saturn

2007-07-02 02:58:33 am

Quote from Cpadolf:

Hmm, your the kind of guy who like to do 1 TAS and no more right?... :P

Not really. This are all my published TASes on TASvodeos currently:
http://tasvideos.org/Movies-114up-Obs.html

Also I worked on the first half of that run for about a half year (from August 2006 till February 2007 where I abandoned the run) which is a long enough time period to slowly get 87000+ rerecords. It's usual that high quality TASes have such a high count, there is no other way around if you want to fully optimize it.