Are Metroid-Hacks illegal?

2009-07-22 07:04:37 am

OMG FLAN!!!!!!!

Game over for boards, yes. Unfortunately. But I seriously doubt that many people here will cease hacking at all. I would hope that if anything were to happen, and Nintendo ordered a C&D, that most people here would in fact continue with their work, and not destroy the hundreds of hours they put into it. I certainly wouldn't kill off everything I did, even if Nintendo didn't like it.

But that's just me, cause I am very stubborn when it comes to authority XD. If some shitty lawyer came and told me "stop working on your hack!", I'd be like "F**k you!" and release it anyway grin new

Quietus

2009-07-22 07:48:46 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

"Dear Bob:

Nintendo says that I can't releasy my hack, which you'll find attached.

It's a shame, as the hack's really good, and it would have been great for everyone on the internet to be ableto enjoy it, but now I guess there's no way for me to get it on the internet.

Speak soon,

Sadiz

P.S. ^Hint, hint!"

Wink

DonnyDonovan

2009-07-22 05:35:16 pm

Quote:

Opium suggests it's a matter of not caring for anything but money. I prefer to think they don't mind what we do.

I suspect you're right. If anything, I'd guess they like it. Things that keep their old games in the spotlight might just help with the new. If the way I discover Super Metroid is because of being directed to hacks, and I become a fan of the series, maybe I'll buy the latest Prime game or Other M.

They're not making money on SM (at least not much, the VC brings in a little revenue). Things that keep it fresh in people's mind help the brand. Believe me, they know what goes on here, and they don't care. If they did, we'd have heard about it by now.

Zeke

2009-07-24 01:36:59 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Quote from Sadiztik Fish:

Game over for boards, yes. Unfortunately. But I seriously doubt that many people here will cease hacking at all.

Quote from Quietus:

Nintendo says that I can't releasy my hack, which you'll find attached.

So I figure I'll make a subtle point by including the word "public". I don't say any more than that, since it would defeat the whole purpose. And here come two Leeroy Jenkinses declaring their intention to sneak around a C&D on the off chance we ever get one.

Subtle, guys. Subtle like a Berserker Lord. But hey, what's it to me? If the N-pocalypse ever comes, it won't be my door they break down first...

Quietus

2009-07-24 04:46:33 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Aww, Zeke... We wuz juss havin' some fun wit you. winky

I suppose this also serves to encourage keeping things under wraps, as the less people know, the less word spreads, and the less likely these things would be.

Using Crimson Echoes as an example, perhaps if they didn't have their own site about it, and just stuck within the compendium's walls, it wouldn't have been crushed. You never know.

TAxxOUTBR3AKxx

2009-07-24 10:09:24 am

Quote from Sadiztik Fish:

Game over for boards, yes. Unfortunately. But I seriously doubt that many people here will cease hacking at all. I would hope that if anything were to happen, and Nintendo ordered a C&D, that most people here would in fact continue with their work, and not destroy the hundreds of hours they put into it. I certainly wouldn't kill off everything I did, even if Nintendo didn't like it.

But that's just me, cause I am very stubborn when it comes to authority XD. If some shitty lawyer came and told me "stop working on your hack!", I'd be like "F**k you!" and release it anyway grin new

Even if boards disappeared, we'd still have IRC anyways....and upload sites.....and direct connect.

Gamma_Metroid

Edit history:

Gamma_Metroid: 2009-07-24 11:50:35 pm

2009-07-24 11:46:32 pm

Uh... So you're allowed to make a backup copy of a game as long as you got it yourself from a legally bought game. But why would you do that if you had to destroy it when you lost/sold/gave away/whatever? I thought the whole purpose of a backup to be used if you don't have your original for some reason.

Dazuro Ghenari

2009-07-25 04:33:30 pm

[ M a n a t e e ]

The idea is that the backup exists in the event that your copy gets stolen or destroyed, not sold or given away.

Gamma_Metroid

2009-07-25 07:09:44 pm

Yes, but the way I hear it, you have to destroy the copy when you no longer have the game, no matter what the circumstances.

BiggestSchnoz

2009-07-25 08:42:23 pm

[BANNED]

This is a very interesting thread.... I agree with Zeke's posts here, if we decided to continue Super Metroid hacking even if there was a C&D order or multiple ones, would we really be willing to take a chance at taking the fall?? (this post is mainly aimed at Sadiztik Fish, who like anyone is welcome to counter my argument here, no offense) If Nintendo took the time to find out our real names in real life, our real street addresses, our phone numbers, and possibly where we work or go to school and they made it clear to us personally they had all this info. would we really say "F#>& you" and release it anyway?? Imagine each of these C&D orders, which being issued here, say they'll sue for $100,000 or more with possible (however improbable) jail time if the hack(s) get released anywhere. This includes forums, the IRC, torrents, rapidshare, among all the other forms of distribution of the hack. Also, what if they, to make a point, monitor all your online activities for a week or more, which is what I hear happened to Zeality, the Chrono Compedium admin and leading hacker of Chrono Trigger: Chrimson Echoes?? The hack team of Crimson Echoes weren't willing to challenge the legal team of Square-Enix and put their real life jobs on the line, I doubt we would either with Nintendo.

Honestly, in this worst case scenario, I think Nintendo would only be pushing us underground where we wouldn't give credit to ourselves as the hackers and so on, which is my opinion....

This is a very interesting thread....  I agree with Zeke's posts here, if we decided to continue Super Metroid hacking even if there was a C&D order or multiple ones, would we really be willing to take a chance at taking the fall?? (this post is mainly aimed at Sadiztik Fish, who like anyone is welcome to counter my argument here, no offense) If Nintendo took the time to find out our real names in real life, our real street addresses, our phone numbers, and possibly where we work or go to school and they made it clear to us personally they had all this info. would we really say "F#>& you" and release it anyway??  Imagine each of these C&D orders, which being issued here, say they'll sue for $100,000 or more with possible (however improbable) jail time if the hack(s) get released anywhere.  This includes forums, the IRC, torrents, rapidshare, among all the other forms of distribution of the hack.  Also, what if they, to make a point, monitor all your online activities for a week or more, which is what I hear happened to Zeality, the Chrono Compedium admin and leading hacker of Chrono Trigger: Chrimson Echoes??  The hack team of Crimson Echoes weren't willing to challenge the legal team of Square-Enix and put their real life jobs on the line, I doubt we would either with Nintendo.

Honestly, in this worst case scenario, I think Nintendo would only be pushing us underground where we wouldn't give credit to ourselves as the hackers and so on, which is my opinion....

Sadiztik Fish

2009-07-26 01:00:53 am

OMG FLAN!!!!!!!

Well, you make a good point. If they new that info about me, I'd have to release the hack under a different name, on a different computer, if possible in another country (different IP), different user name, etc. Pretty much so there's absolutely no connectio whatsoever back to me. XD

I'm gonna shut up now so I don't incriminate myself to much. lol

Super KB

2009-07-26 02:39:04 am

ϟ

in my point of view, i say all hack games are not illegal because its your/their own customized game they made for yourself/thereselves
but just getting ROM games for free are illegal [i think]

Sadiztik Fish

2009-07-26 03:09:06 am

OMG FLAN!!!!!!!

Well, yes and no. The changes you make are indeed yours, and can be freely distibuted and is not illegal, if it contains ONLY those changes. The actualy code or designs that are in the rom already all belong to Nintendo, which would make distributing it illegal.

That's why we can't share actual ROMs, only IPS patches.

Jathys

2009-07-27 04:37:38 pm

I've often wondered about how similar the structure of a virtual console game would be as compared to the original game data. If my understanding is correct, which it probably isn't, wouldn't the virtual console game simply be the original game data which would then be emulated on the Wii? I believe (again, only guessing) that there's a checksum of some sort to prevent non-virtual console "roms" from playing on the Wii.

The reason I bring this up:
If you purchase a wii point card and use your wii points to download Super Metroid from Nintendo's site directly . . . Isn't that a ROM that even Nintendo would admit you have a legal right to use? Anyway to download them without having to use a Wii to do it?

Once you have your legal ROM, what you do with it on your own computer is 100% legal if restricted to your own computer . . . Should be anyway. Academic/Educational use if you're tearing apart coding to find how it works and learning how to create new things.

The IPS itself is legal, as it contains no copyrighted material. The patch could technically be applied to any file.

That said, anyone know if what I'm saying about the format of a virtual console game is true or not? I would *love* to have a 100% legitimate workflow that could not be questioned. It would be more than worth the cost of the 800 wii points.

I've often wondered about how similar the structure of a virtual console game would be as compared to the original game data.  If my understanding is correct, which it probably isn't, wouldn't the virtual console game simply be the original game data which would then be emulated on the Wii?  I believe (again, only guessing) that there's a checksum of some sort to prevent non-virtual console "roms" from playing on the Wii.

The reason I bring this up:
If you purchase a wii point card and use your wii points to download Super Metroid from Nintendo's site directly . . . Isn't that a ROM that even Nintendo would admit you have a legal right to use?  Anyway to download them without having to use a Wii to do it?

Once you have your legal ROM, what you do with it on your own computer is 100% legal if restricted to your own computer . . . Should be anyway.  Academic/Educational use if you're tearing apart coding to find how it works and learning how to create new things.

The IPS itself is legal, as it contains no copyrighted material.  The patch could technically be applied to any file.

That said, anyone know if what I'm saying about the format of a virtual console game is true or not?  I would *love* to have a 100% legitimate workflow that could not be questioned.  It would be more than worth the cost of the 800 wii points.

playerman1230

2009-07-27 04:51:26 pm

Hated by all

Pretty much, I didn't find the one word that would have shed a bit more light: sanctioning.

And sadly enough, it's just one of two cents I can think of.

Quietus

2009-07-27 04:56:34 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Regarding the Wii VC games, the ones I have are stored in .wad format, and I believe it's basically the game data with the emulator stuff in one file.

Zeke

2009-07-28 03:09:39 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Don't get too excited -- there are picky details here too. As I recently learned, you don't really own your VC games even after you pay for them. Oh, you can play them all you want -- until your Wii breaks or gets stolen. Then you find out they're not transferable. Anything you bought for that Wii is gone with the wiind. (I joke, but this is seriously an outrageous way to do things. Fix it, Nintendo.)

Besides, the legality of ROMs isn't the core of this issue. They're just the medium. Hacks are the real contraband, and that holds true whether they're ROMs, WADs, or physical SNES carts (the technology to print them is still around, after all).

Think of Super Metroid as a book written by Nintendo. We're like amateur writers reprinting that book with some of the words changed. Under this analogy, a purely graphical hack is like a reprint that changes all the characters' names but leaves the rest alone. A half-hack would change only details -- the adjectives used to describe things, what the characters have for lunch, and so on. A full hack would make real changes: chapters out of order, plot events subtly different, minor characters removed or added. But all of these things would retain most of the original book, and they'd be aimed at readers of it.

This isn't a perfect analogy. (For one thing, making "reprints" sounds really boring.) But I think it helps to bring the nature of hacking into focus. Without the author's permission, reprints like the ones I described are blatantly illegal. They depend so heavily on someone else's original content as to dwarf whatever merit the alterations may have; they wouldn't last ten seconds in court. If that weren't so, every publisher who wanted to make a quick buck could just run a find/replace and start selling "Harvey Potter".

Do patches solve the problem? (The legal problem, that is -- obviously it makes no moral difference.) Maybe so, but I doubt it. The equivalent would be to publish, instead of full reprints, pamphlets listing each word to change and what to change it to. You'd need your own copy of the original book, sure. But the altered book still exists, just not all in one piece; its creator has done nothing fundamentally different. If it was illegal before, it still ought to be.

Don't get me wrong here. I love Metroid hacks. They take more originality than any "reprint" could, and they change the experience much more. That's why they're worth making and playing. But they are essentially illegal. Everything about them depends on something we don't own. We're not hurting anyone as far as we know, and unless that changes, Nintendo will probably let us be. But there's no point trying to be legal about this; we'd have to do so many things differently that whatever we came up with would no longer be recognizable as a SM hack.

Don't get too excited -- there are picky details here too.  As I recently learned, you don't really own your VC games even after you pay for them.  Oh, you can play them all you want -- until your Wii breaks or gets stolen.  Then you find out they're [i]not transferable[/i].  Anything you bought for that Wii is gone with the wiind.  (I joke, but this is seriously an outrageous way to do things.  Fix it, Nintendo.)

Besides, the legality of ROMs isn't the core of this issue.  They're just the medium.  Hacks are the real contraband, and that holds true whether they're ROMs, WADs, or physical SNES carts (the technology to print them is still around, after all).

Think of [i]Super Metroid[/i] as a book written by Nintendo.  We're like amateur writers reprinting that book with some of the words changed.  Under this analogy, a purely graphical hack is like a reprint that changes all the characters' names but leaves the rest alone.  A half-hack would change only details -- the adjectives used to describe things, what the characters have for lunch, and so on.  A full hack would make real changes: chapters out of order, plot events subtly different, minor characters removed or added.  But all of these things would retain [i]most[/i] of the original book, and they'd be aimed at readers of it.

This isn't a perfect analogy.  (For one thing, making "reprints" sounds really boring.)  But I think it helps to bring the nature of hacking into focus.  Without the author's permission, reprints like the ones I described are [i]blatantly[/i] illegal.  They depend so heavily on someone else's original content as to dwarf whatever merit the alterations may have; they wouldn't last ten seconds in court.  If that weren't so, every publisher who wanted to make a quick buck could just run a find/replace and start selling "Harvey Potter".

Do patches solve the problem?  (The legal problem, that is -- obviously it makes no moral difference.)  Maybe so, but I doubt it.  The equivalent would be to publish, instead of full reprints, pamphlets listing each word to change and what to change it to.  You'd need your own copy of the original book, sure.  But the altered book still exists, just not all in one piece; its creator has done nothing fundamentally different.  If it was illegal before, it still ought to be.

Don't get me wrong here.  I love Metroid hacks.  They take more originality than any "reprint" could, and they change the experience much more.  That's why they're worth making and playing.  But they are [i]essentially[/i] illegal.  Everything about them depends on something we don't own.  We're not hurting anyone as far as we know, and unless that changes, Nintendo will probably let us be.  But there's no point trying to be legal about this; we'd have to do so many things differently that whatever we came up with would no longer be recognizable as a SM hack.

DJGrenola

2009-07-28 08:44:48 am

Regarding hacking VC ROMs -- my understanding is that this would be illegal in the US and probably most of Europe, since to do it would require you to defeat Nintendo's copy protections. This can be done and has been done, but doing so would likely violate the DMCA or EUCD.