Are Metroid-Hacks illegal?

2009-07-11 06:17:43 am

Hallo!

I have a question!
Are Metroid-Hacks illegal? Or it doesn't interesst Nintendo?

Thread title:

2009-07-11 08:02:36 am

It's my understanding that ROM hacking is not illegal, but distributing or having said ROMs stored on any device other than a licensed game cartridge or disc is in fact unlawful.

Most gaming companies frown upon these activities but very rarely take any action. This may change in the near future since the introduction of the virtual console because Nintendo has the opportunity to once again profit from old games. The thing that I could see Nintendo taking action over these days would be distribution of NDS ROMs, but I seriously doubt activities that revolve around ROM hacking are something that makes financial sense for them to do anything about at this point in time.

The truth is that most people who use emulators for older-gen games have already bought the games in the past and are often longtime dedicated fans who are usually first in line to purchase new gaming products.

There is a common misconception that if you own a legal copy of the game then it is OK to have the ROM on your PC, but this is false.

The distribution of ROMs or any activity directly related to it strictly prohibited by this and just about any other site. IPS patches are distributed freely since they are perfectly legal and do not contain an actual ROM.

It's my understanding that ROM hacking is not illegal, but distributing or having said ROMs stored on any device other than a licensed game cartridge or disc is in fact unlawful.

Most gaming companies frown upon these activities but very rarely take any action.  This may change in the near future since the introduction of the virtual console because Nintendo has the opportunity to once again profit from old games.  The thing that I could see Nintendo taking action over these days would be distribution of NDS ROMs, but I seriously doubt activities that revolve around ROM hacking are something that makes financial sense for them to do anything about at this point in time.

The truth is that most people who use emulators for older-gen games have already bought the games in the past and are often longtime dedicated fans who are usually first in line to purchase new gaming products.

There is a common misconception that if you own a legal copy of the game then it is OK to have the ROM on your PC, but this is false.

The distribution of ROMs or any activity directly related to it strictly prohibited by this and just about any other site.  IPS patches are distributed freely since they are perfectly legal and do not contain an actual ROM.

Quietus

2009-07-11 10:57:55 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Opium:

There is a common misconception that if you own a legal copy of the game then it is OK to have the ROM on your PC, but this is false.

I don't believe this is entirely true. I was under the impression that as long as you dumped the ROM yourself, from an original cartridge, then you were perfectly entitled to.

[Following info may be out of date]
I guess it's like copying all of your CDs. You're entitled to them as 'backups'. This is always the argument with CDs. You're supposed to be allowed to back them all up by law, and yet they place copy-protection on the discs, which stops you doing so. On the other hand, if they didn't put copy-protection on the disc, then piracy would be even more rife.

FirePhoenix

2009-07-11 01:29:33 pm

Quote from Quietus:

Quote from Opium:

There is a common misconception that if you own a legal copy of the game then it is OK to have the ROM on your PC, but this is false.

I don't believe this is entirely true. I was under the impression that as long as you dumped the ROM yourself, from an original cartridge, then you were perfectly entitled to.

[Following info may be out of date]
I guess it's like copying all of your CDs. You're entitled to them as 'backups'. This is always the argument with CDs. You're supposed to be allowed to back them all up by law, and yet they place copy-protection on the discs, which stops you doing so. On the other hand, if they didn't put copy-protection on the disc, then piracy would be even more rife.

I believe that the thing about dumping them yourself only applies in certain countries, not worldwide.

Now, homebrew roms, ones you code entirely yourself, are perfectly legal.

Samus-Aran

(user is banned)

2009-07-11 01:38:03 pm

SAMUS ARAN RULES

what happens if you don't or had it then got burned in a fire

Opium

2009-07-11 02:14:43 pm

Quote from Quietus:

Quote from Opium:

There is a common misconception that if you own a legal copy of the game then it is OK to have the ROM on your PC, but this is false.

I don't believe this is entirely true. I was under the impression that as long as you dumped the ROM yourself, from an original cartridge, then you were perfectly entitled to.

Dumping IS copying, therefore not lawful.

Quietus

2009-07-11 02:45:44 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Not so.

Quoted from Nintendo's own page on the issue:

"Can I Download a Nintendo ROM from the Internet if I Already Own the Authentic Game?

There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."

In short: While not directly saying you can, this alludes to the law allowing you to do so.

From GameFAQ's page on the issue:

"Is it legal to make a copy of a game I own?

Yes. U.S. Copyright laws allow you to make one backup copy of software you own. However, that backup copy is "tied" to your original. If you sell or give away your original software, you must destroy your backup copy or package it with the orignal when you sell or give it away. Likewise, you may not sell or give away your backup copy without the original.

Of course, with the advent of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), breaking the copyright protection on a piece of software you own has been made a crime in many cases, so if the software you are backing up implements copyright protection, it may also be illegal."

In short: You can make one copy without issue, UNLESS you are having to deliberately circumvent copy-protection. Which is what I mentioned above, about kind of violating your rights, as you're allowed to make the copy, but they stop you doing so, so which side wins out? Eh?

Not so.

[u][b]Quoted from Nintendo's own page on the issue:[/b][/u]

"Can I Download a Nintendo ROM from the Internet if I Already Own the Authentic Game?

There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to [b][i]a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game[/i][/b] to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet."

In short: While not directly saying you can, this alludes to the law allowing you to do so.

[u][b]From GameFAQ's page on the issue:[/b][/u]

"Is it legal to make a copy of a game I own?

Yes. U.S. Copyright laws [b][i]allow you to make one backup copy of software you own[/i][/b]. However, that backup copy is "tied" to your original. If you sell or give away your original software, you must destroy your backup copy or package it with the orignal when you sell or give it away. Likewise, you may not sell or give away your backup copy without the original.

Of course, with the advent of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), breaking the copyright protection on a piece of software you own has been made a crime in many cases, so if the software you are backing up implements copyright protection, it may also be illegal."

In short: You can make one copy without issue, UNLESS you are having to deliberately circumvent copy-protection.  Which is what I mentioned above, about kind of violating your rights, as you're allowed to make the copy, but they stop you doing so, so which side wins out? :huh_orig:

Samus-Aran

(user is banned)

2009-07-12 04:14:22 am

SAMUS ARAN RULES

the resson why im asking if you can do it if it got burned in a fire when i was only 4 years old

Opium

2009-07-12 01:38:08 pm

Quote from Samus-Aran:

the resson why im asking if you can do it if it got burned in a fire when i was only 4 years old

yeah....mine got burned in a fire too. In fact if memory serves me correctly then all of my older-gen games were lost in a tragic accidental fire.

Quietus

2009-07-12 02:30:48 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Samus-Aran:

the resson why im asking if you can do it if it got burned in a fire when i was only 4 years old

No, you would have no way to be able to create your own copy, so you are not entitled to have a copy.

But I wouldn't worry too much, as I expect that most people owning the ROM do not own the original. Perhaps not so much on this forum, as we're all into Metroid, but most people...

Samus-Aran

(user is banned)

2009-07-12 02:40:29 pm

SAMUS ARAN RULES

i at least have metroid prime 1 2 3 hunters

Quietus

2009-07-12 03:41:37 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Just so we're clear: You're on a Metroid-based forum. Most people here own the majority of the titles in the series.

Samus-Aran

(user is banned)

2009-07-12 03:42:43 pm

SAMUS ARAN RULES

yes

Kejardon

2009-07-12 06:04:37 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Metroid, Super, Fusion, Zero Mission, Prime 1,2,3. I lost Return sometime around a decade ago, but to be perfectly honest I'm not too sad about that.

More on topic, on the subject of hacks themselves which hasn't been touched too much...
As a derivative work, the legality is pretty mixed but actually leans towards legal under fair use, I think. See Galoob's court case, where using a Game Genie to modify the game was deemed legal. Hacks can theoretically be recreated by a Game Genie with a sufficient number of codes, and the codes themselves would be (ideally) original work from the hack author (ripping and inserting sprites from other games obviously wouldn't fall under this, as well as other source material). This is all assuming that you only work with .ips patches though. Distributing the hacks as .smc files means distributing the portion of the game that Nintendo DOES hold a clear copyright on, and would probably be deemed illegal in just about any court. In addition, console emulators themselves have been tried in court and upheld as legal, so there's a pretty clear argument for the legality of distributing hacks as .ips patches and playing them (if it will actually stand up in court though, I don't really know).
The real sticker though, as has been somewhat mentioned, is that few people actually have the required tools to perform everything legally. In addition, the reverse engineering often required to hack the game and console may or may not be legal, depending on which methods you use. I don't know much about the details of that. I'm rather inclined to think that Nintendo isn't particularly proud or protective about their SNES programming techniques though.

Metroid, Super, Fusion, Zero Mission, Prime 1,2,3. I lost Return sometime around a decade ago, but to be perfectly honest I'm not [b]too[/b] sad about that.

More on topic, on the subject of hacks themselves which hasn't been touched too much...
As a derivative work, the legality is pretty mixed but actually leans towards legal under fair use, I think. See [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.]Galoob's court case[/url], where using a Game Genie to modify the game was deemed legal. Hacks can theoretically be recreated by a Game Genie with a sufficient number of codes, and the codes themselves would be (ideally) original work from the hack author (ripping and inserting sprites from other games obviously wouldn't fall under this, as well as other source material). This is all assuming that you only work with .ips patches though. Distributing the hacks as .smc files means distributing the portion of the game that Nintendo DOES hold a clear copyright on, and would probably be deemed illegal in just about any court. In addition, console emulators themselves have been tried in court and upheld as legal, so there's a pretty clear argument for the legality of distributing hacks as .ips patches and playing them (if it will actually stand up in court though, I don't really know).
The real sticker though, as has been somewhat mentioned, is that few people actually have the required tools to perform everything legally. In addition, the reverse engineering often required to hack the game and console may or may not be legal, depending on which methods you use. I don't know much about the details of that. I'm rather inclined to think that Nintendo isn't particularly proud or protective about their SNES programming techniques though.

TailsLover

2009-07-12 11:35:12 pm

Merry Christmas

A very good question, Nintendo isn't doing shit to stop this. There against homebrew for the wii and nds. So basically, I can download Chrono Trigger Ds (U) version (I own the ds version) am I entitled to a second copy?

Quietus

2009-07-13 04:54:14 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

You cannot legally download the ROM. As detailed above, you are entitled to MAKE a copy. This means that you'll need any necessary tools to 'dump' the image yourself.

Quote from Rydia3667:

Nintendo isn't doing shit to stop this.

Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes says otherwise.

Crys

2009-07-13 08:01:23 am

Green-Kirby, ROAR!

Quote from Quietus:

Quote from Rydia3667:

Nintendo isn't doing shit to stop this.

Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes says otherwise.

That's square enix and not nintendo.

Quietus

2009-07-13 08:18:14 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Yeah, I know, but it serves in pointing out that some ARE combating the issue.

I don't think Nintendo have actually done anything yet beyond the IDSA malarky, and closing down places selling gear that enables you to play DS stuff.

tomatobob

2009-07-13 07:10:49 pm

One shall stand, one shall ball.

Quote from Kejardon:

As a derivative work, the legality is pretty mixed but actually leans towards legal under fair use, I think. See Galoob's court case, where using a Game Genie to modify the game was deemed legal. Hacks can theoretically be recreated by a Game Genie with a sufficient number of codes, and the codes themselves would be (ideally) original work from the hack author (ripping and inserting sprites from other games obviously wouldn't fall under this, as well as other source material)

Ehh, Game Genie didn't distribute it's altered versions of Super Metroid: Subtitle (c) Hacker's Name and/or Hacker's Name in credits last I heard. A ROM hack could probably fall under fair use, but you'd still have to prove it and that might be a bit of an uphill battle just given the nature of ROMs in the first place.

But that requires Nintendo to care enough to go after ROM hackers. So it may be better to ask if Nintendo even cares about ROM hacks, or at least enough to really do anything about it. The answer seems to be no, at this point.

[quote="Kejardon"]
As a derivative work, the legality is pretty mixed but actually leans towards legal under fair use, I think. See [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.]Galoob's court case[/url], where using a Game Genie to modify the game was deemed legal. Hacks can theoretically be recreated by a Game Genie with a sufficient number of codes, and the codes themselves would be (ideally) original work from the hack author (ripping and inserting sprites from other games obviously wouldn't fall under this, as well as other source material)
[/quote]

Ehh, Game Genie didn't distribute it's altered versions of Super Metroid: Subtitle (c) Hacker's Name and/or Hacker's Name in credits last I heard. A ROM hack could [i]probably[/i] fall under fair use, but you'd still have to prove it and that might be a bit of an uphill battle just given the nature of ROMs in the first place.

But that requires Nintendo to care enough to go after ROM hackers. So it may be better to ask if Nintendo even cares about ROM hacks, or at least enough to really do anything about it. The answer seems to be no, at this point.

Opium

2009-07-13 08:06:50 pm

I really don't see how ROM hacking could affect Nintendo's bottom line, which is all they really care about in the end. I doubt they would spend the money to take action based on principle.

TwinNova

2009-07-17 11:28:29 pm

Id like to think it could be inspiration.

vZakat

2009-07-17 11:58:49 pm

Quote from Opium:

I really don't see how ROM hacking could affect Nintendo's bottom line, which is all they really care about in the end. I doubt they would spend the money to take action based on principle.

Yeah, it makes me wonder why nintendo hasn't gone after Brawl+ yet. They're going after homebrew though so I guess that's a start.

FirePhoenix

2009-07-18 12:16:09 am

I don't really think that Nintendo cares too much about hacks and such. Example: type "super mario world hack" or "smw" into google and SMWCentral will show up as the first and second links respectively. SMW Hacking is a very prominent thing on the internet both in Japan and in North America and Europe yet Nintendo doesn't do anything about it. I think that if they really did care they would have done something about it a while ago.

Shekb

2009-07-18 01:31:39 am

Well, unless you sell your rom hacK (lololololol), I don't see why they should care

Zeke

2009-07-22 12:19:27 am

Time bomb set get out fast!

Come on, guys, let's not fool ourselves. Of course monkeying with commercial games is illegal. Fair use is a powerful principle (one that any fanfic author or *cough* parody writer relies on), but it only goes so far. There are countless little details about the ROM hacking world that a good lawyer could exploit. We're walking a fine line with a blindfold on.

No, our best defense isn't fair use, it's an old legal maxim: De minimis non curat lex. The law doesn't concern itself with trifles. If Nintendo really wanted to, they could crush Metroid hacking or drive it underground. But they don't bother -- and more important, they don't bother to deal with some far more blatant violators. How many sites sell T-shirts with Nintendo sprites on them? When you take money for someone else's intellectual property, you all but abandon the fair use defense. It takes two seconds to cut-and-paste a sprite and put it in a shirt design, but the big N generally lets that go -- so it's pretty unlikely that they'll go after people who spend hundreds of hours making ROM hacks and then give them away for free.

Opium suggests it's a matter of not caring for anything but money. I prefer to think they don't mind what we do. Either way, the evidence suggests we needn't worry too much. But don't kid yourself, Jack: we hack at Nintendo's pleasure. If they ever change their minds and adopt a Square-Enixier attitude, it's game over for public hacking boards like this.

Come on, guys, let's not fool ourselves.  Of [i]course[/i] monkeying with commercial games is illegal.  Fair use is a powerful principle (one that any fanfic author or *cough* parody writer relies on), but it only goes so far.  There are countless little details about the ROM hacking world that a good lawyer could exploit.  We're walking a fine line with a blindfold on.

No, our best defense isn't fair use, it's an old legal maxim: [i]De minimis non curat lex[/i].  The law doesn't concern itself with trifles.  If Nintendo really wanted to, they could crush Metroid hacking or drive it underground.  But they don't bother -- and more important, they don't bother to deal with some far more blatant violators.  How many sites sell T-shirts with Nintendo sprites on them?  When you take [i]money[/i] for someone else's intellectual property, you all but abandon the fair use defense.  It takes two seconds to cut-and-paste a sprite and put it in a shirt design, but the big N generally lets that go -- so it's pretty unlikely that they'll go after people who spend hundreds of hours making ROM hacks and then give them away for free.

Opium suggests it's a matter of not caring for anything but money.  I prefer to think they don't mind what we do.  Either way, the evidence suggests we needn't worry too much.  But don't kid yourself, Jack: we hack at Nintendo's pleasure.  If they ever change their minds and adopt a Square-Enixier attitude, it's game over for public hacking boards like this.