anypercent route discussion

2005-09-07 09:57:32 pm

Maridia without both grav and speed is out of the question, unless you feel like climbing Mt. Damnit (for which you need the ice beam, which is in the same general area is the speed booster. :/)

If you're going to get the plasma at *all*, you want to go draygon before ridley. It saves a minute on ridley alone, which is more than equal to the extra travel time, and saves you from having to get the spazer. Plus, the sj speeds up LN.

Kejardon

2005-09-08 01:51:27 am

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

Mother Brain has very simple resistances. Not checking right now, but I'm pretty sure it's 2x to missiles, 2x to supers, and 2x to charge beams. No, neither screw attack nor psuedo screw attack hurt her, even though she appears to take damage.
With these resistances, it's just about the same speed to use supers as it is to use charged ice/wave/plasma. I think supers are just a tid-bit faster, though, but you obviously won't have many in this run.

Guess I should note. Mother Brain's cage takes 18 shots to destroy, you can hit Mother Brain after 6 shots, and she takes 100 to missiles and 300 to super missiles. She won't transform until you've destroyed the glass AND dealt 3000 damage to her.

Maridia requires either ice or speed boots+gravity. You *have* to backtrack between Norfair and Maridia if you want to do Draygon before Ridley, which is why the early Ridley route was suggested. The real question is if the space jump and plasma can save more time in LN than they take to get first.

I haven't really gotten the hang of running through enemies right as I shoot them, although I haven't tried much, either. If you can easily manage without the Screw Attack, go ahead.
You can do the roll-back with the Screw Attack, you'll just have to break out of screw attack before you hit the enemy (press up or aim or something).

Mother Brain has very simple resistances. Not checking right now, but I'm pretty sure it's 2x to missiles, 2x to supers, and 2x to charge beams. No, neither screw attack nor psuedo screw attack hurt her, even though she appears to take damage.
With these resistances, it's just about the same speed to use supers as it is to use charged ice/wave/plasma. I think supers are just a tid-bit faster, though, but you obviously won't have many in this run.

Guess I should note. Mother Brain's cage takes 18 shots to destroy, you can hit Mother Brain after 6 shots, and she takes 100 to missiles and 300 to super missiles. She won't transform until you've destroyed the glass AND dealt 3000 damage to her.

Maridia requires either ice or speed boots+gravity. You *have* to backtrack between Norfair and Maridia if you want to do Draygon before Ridley, which is why the early Ridley route was suggested. The real question is if the space jump and plasma can save more time in LN than they take to get first.

I haven't really gotten the hang of running through enemies right as I shoot them, although I haven't tried much, either. If you can easily manage without the Screw Attack, go ahead.
You can do the roll-back with the Screw Attack, you'll just have to break out of screw attack before you hit the enemy (press up or aim or something).

Chanoire

2005-09-08 07:17:00 pm

Quote from Kejardon:

Mother Brain's cage takes 18 shots to destroy, you can hit Mother Brain after 6 shots, and she takes 100 to missiles and 300 to super missiles.

??

to = from?

nate

2005-09-08 07:36:47 pm

hmm ... i think i can actually hear 'to' used there. but i can't seem to formulate a sentence where it sounds right to me. must be another dialect. like, i want to say 'he took 200 damage [due] to a super missile,' but in my dialect, taking damage from something indicates that that something executed the damage, while taking damage to something indicates that that something became damaged.

Chanoire

2005-09-08 09:02:51 pm

I'd typed the "??" already when I realized what it probably meant. However, since it had puzzled me already I figured I'd leave it. Part of it is the parallel structure: "Mother Brain's cage takes 18 shots to destroy....she takes 100 to missiles..."

Maur

2005-09-08 09:32:52 pm

Just because I don't feel like going through every single beam type again, I'll just do ice/wave/spazer and ice/wave/plasma.

I'm randomly assuming 5 missiles and 5 supers left after the case is dead, mainly because I can't remember what # of missiles/supers you would have... As missiling her would be slower than charge shotting (w/ plasma at least), I'll disregard the missiles.

18000 - (300 * 5) = 16500 health left.

I/W/S does 50 damage by default, I/W/P does 150.

I/W/S: 16500/(50*2*3) = 55 shots/2.75 minutes
I/W/P: 19 shots/0.95 minutes

Yeah, significant difference. 1.8 minutes... or 1 minute, 48 seconds.

So: if you get plasma, go draygon -> ridley.
If you skip plasma, then:
You get the spazer, you lose 15 secs.
You save about that much on travel time.
You lose a minute in the ridley battle.
You lose ~2 minutes in the mb battle.
You lose however much from no SJ in lower norfair.
You save however much from skipping the plasma.

Heh. :/

Liam

2005-09-09 04:09:49 am

I just walked the route to Ridley and I had 90 missiles and 15 super missiles. But I'm not really an expert or something. Route I took was Morph Ball --> Bombs --> via way on the upper left of the ship --> early super missile/reserve tank --> Charge Beam --> up the red shaft --> early power bomb --> Phantoon --> Gravity Suit --> Maridia --> Spazer --> Norfair --> Ice Beam --> Hi-Jump Boots --> Speed Booster --> Wave Beam --> Lower Norfair --> Screw Attack --> Ridley

Took me around 5 minutes to beat him, but I have a bad aim. XD

Saturn

2005-09-09 07:46:30 am

Well, if you lose almost 3 min to the last boss fights and also in Lower Norfair without Space Jump and Plasma, then I guess the Draygon Route is still faster. Geting Plasma will be definitely faster than 3 min.

But now there is a question in the draygon-first route:
Is it better to go to Norfair, grap the Ice Beam (maybe HJ Boots too) and go to Maridia imediately, so that you can take (also only if necessary) the Speed Booster and Wave Beam directly on the way to Ridley later?

I have to note that you can Speed-Flying in the large room with quicksand before Draygon (to him by Charging in the long room after Botwoon, walljumping very fast on the top in the next room (which maybe even requires HJ Boots to get there while still Shinesparking), then just fly to draygon) and also back (with the Blue Suit glitch) which will save about 30 sec.

Maur

2005-09-09 03:35:58 pm

That trick in the grapple room before draygon is near-impossible on a console. I tried awhile ago and never managed it once. What's the window on how many frames you have?

Getting the speed booster is almost certainly faster. I don't think even a TAS can climb Mt. Damnit quickly. And besides, you guys can sj through the grapple room using the aforementioned trick.

And if you don't get it, you can't boost through the room right after botwoon and so forth...

Red Scarlet

2005-09-09 04:33:19 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

That super jump before Draygon is BS to me. I've tried it for hours on the cart AND the rom, and get stopped halfway in the room due to hitting a block every single time. I don't think it's possible on console to do. Maybe the TAS goes INTO the room and jumps from there, but on the console that just isn't worth trying to do.

Plus, you need Power Bombs to get into Maridia too, so which one would you get (Brinstar or Norfair)? Draygon first won't be fast.

Saturn

2005-09-09 09:18:30 pm

Right, have forgot about the energy tank room after botwoon. Geting Speed Booster is a clear case then.

Now checked Teri's 27 min TAS and by frame-perfect charging and using the 10 super missiles (Brinstar 1st room, Wricked Ship and a ) on Ridley I calculated that the losing time on him will be about 24 sec if using the Spazer and about 48 sec on MB. This is about 1 min and 12 sec and now I still think going Ridley first is a good choice.

Scarlet:
the first power bombs are in brinstar after the long red corridor on the way to Phantoon.

Maybe the Super Jump in Maridia to Draygon is indeed impossible to perform on console but in a TAS you can do everything... The 27 min TAS author did this jump in both times. and yes, it goes into the next room first then jump and perform it on a exact high.

Jack

2005-09-09 09:40:55 pm

Well, Draygon second wouldn't be that slow. You wouldn't need Speed Booster, and once you left you'd have Plasma Beam....That's always good. You'd pick up the power bombs on the way Up to Phantoon from Brinstar, and just go on the way back to Norfair to Draygon.

Red Scarlet

2005-09-09 10:44:23 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Ok, no one really talked about which detour was going to be taken for PB's (orange Brinstar or after Crocomire).

Quote from Saturn:

but in a TAS you can do everything...

But he's not doing that, so stuff only doable in those doesn't really help him much.

I can't even get through the door and retain the charge..I think I did a few times and still hit a block (a grapple block?) halfway through, instead of the usual one. I still think it's BS. Especially on the console.

Quote from Maur:

I'm trying to get someone to do a < 0:35 speedrun. That's why I'm posting all this stuff. :P

If nobody picks this up by like easter holiday or some obscenely long time I might actually try it myself.

Saturn

2005-09-10 05:43:04 am

Scarlet:
In a any % run its clear that you won't fight Crocomire so the PB's after him don't come in question... And yes, if not even you can get the super Jump to work on console, that says all. At least in a TAS it works if you have High Jump Boots and frame-perfect walljumps and the Author did this jump, just check his movie to see.

Then the final question is would the route detour beating Draygon (but going Norfair to get Speed Booster before) and geting Plasma save the 1,2 minutes that will be lost without it in last battles?

Another thing: If you go for the Ridley first route without Plasma, is it maybe better to take the detour in Wricked Ship to collect the 2nd hidden Super Missile pack to have 15 instead of 10 in the later boss fights? This 5 SuperM. shots will save 10 Charged Spazer shots on Ridley (3000HP) and also some time on Mother Brain. And if Kej. say that Mother B. has always 2 damage multiplicators on any weapon then a Charged Spazer/Ice/Wave shot is exactly same strong like a Super M. so this saves again 5 charged shots.

Also for Killing Phantoon in one round you have to collect at least 20 missiles before him, so the best way is probably to get the additional one on the bottom in beginning of the room where you mockball to super missiles. However I'm not sure if this additional Missile pack will help in further Boss fights.

Jack: I understand exactly your point. I also thought just taking the Ice Beam and HJ Boots in Norfair and go to Draygon is a interesting route. Althought you don't have the Speed Booster and therefor lose some time on the way to draygon, you can get imediately to Maridia without the Norfair detours. But it's really doubtable if this faster route will save the time you lose without the S. Booster.

It's still pretty unclear which route will be the fastest IMO.

Scarlet:
In a any % run its clear that you won't fight Crocomire so the PB's after him don't come in question... And yes, if not even you can get the super Jump to work on console, that says all. At least in a TAS it works if you have High Jump Boots and frame-perfect walljumps and the Author did this jump, just check his movie to see.

Then the final question is would the route detour beating Draygon (but going Norfair to get Speed Booster before) and geting Plasma save the 1,2 minutes that will be lost without it in last battles?

Another thing: If you go for the Ridley first route without Plasma, is it maybe better to take the detour in Wricked Ship to collect the 2nd hidden Super Missile pack to have 15 instead of 10 in the later boss fights? This 5 SuperM. shots will save 10 Charged Spazer shots on Ridley (3000HP) and also some time on Mother Brain. And if Kej. say that Mother B. has always 2 damage multiplicators on any weapon then a Charged Spazer/Ice/Wave shot is exactly same strong like a Super M. so this saves again 5 charged shots.

Also for Killing Phantoon in one round you have to collect at least 20 missiles before him, so the best way is probably to get the additional one on the bottom in beginning of the room where you mockball to super missiles. However I'm not sure if this additional Missile pack will help in further Boss fights.

Jack: I understand exactly your point. I also thought just taking the Ice Beam and HJ Boots in Norfair and go to Draygon is a interesting route. Althought you don't have the Speed Booster and therefor lose some time on the way to draygon, you can get imediately to Maridia without the Norfair detours. But it's really doubtable if this faster route will save the time you lose without the S. Booster.

It's still pretty unclear which route will be the fastest IMO.

Maur

2005-09-10 09:50:36 am

I really need to get around to timing how long it takes to get the plasma and go to both norfair and upper brinstar, then time how long it takes to just run to both places...

Ah, yeah, random note, but whoever does this run on a console will need to remember to aim up/down constantly.

Saturn

2005-09-10 11:26:34 am

Ah, the running faster trick...
However if you don't have turbo buttons on your Pad this won't help too much (only a little bit). Fastest running can only be reached if you press and release the aim buttons every single frame which is definitely impossible without turbo.

Is it allowed to use a Turbo-Pad in this case on Speed Demos Archive at all?

Maur: I guess there is no other way than to test the questionable routes to know more. A TAS requires very much time to make (took me almost 1/2 year for the last movie) so its definitely better to do it live. The result won't be the most exact but still good enough to compare the times.

Yoshi348

2005-09-10 01:09:54 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from Saturn:

Is it allowed to use a Turbo-Pad in this case on Speed Demos Archive at all?

Nope.

Screwy

2005-09-10 02:17:02 pm

I did a Phantoon>Ridley>Kraid>Drygoon run and I was ammassed how bad the results was (43 minutes :x). I think it would be alot better not skipping Hi-Jump as I did Embarassed

. I collected 25% wich IMO is whats needed though i had problems with too less Supers and PBs in lower Norfair. I didnt collect the Plasma Beam couse it would be a too large de-tour too Tourian (Maybe), I thought the MB battle would take to long but couse of having 20 supers and 30 missilse at the end it didnt take that long.

I think taking Ridley as the second boss is just a wast of time, so Phantoon>Drygoon>Kraid>Ridley is/could be faster.

Im going to stick too Smokeys route sort of couse im so dissapointed in this runs results :( .

Saturn

2005-09-10 03:12:47 pm

Hmmm that are bad news, I was pretty positive about Ridley first route, but if you go the Draygon route first do you collect the Speed Booster and the Wave Beam first?

Also why didn't you recorded a movie if you beat this game in 36 min to show other your skill?

Maur

2005-09-10 05:03:30 pm

As I can't test the routes out myself right now, I'll just post the routes I'll try later today. All start from the top of the room after the grapple room that consoles fail at sparking over.

1. Skip plasma, go to ship/tourian:
All the way down, left, speed through the blocks, go through 2 rooms, down, pb, left, up, left, sj across top of room, up, left, through green gate. (it goes through the alternate maridia exit that comes out at the top of red brinstar).

2. skip plasma, go to ridley:
Same as above, but drop down in the huge room you sj over instead of going up.

3. get plasma, go to ridley: duh.

4. get plasma, go to ship/tourian: same as above, just keep heading left instead of dropping through the hole in the second-to-last room. Then green gate glitch through the super door and head up. Yeah, *really* slow.

Red Scarlet

2005-09-10 06:43:29 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

Quote from Saturn:

Scarlet:

And yes, if not even you can get the super Jump to work on console, that says all. At least in a TAS it works if you have High Jump Boots and frame-perfect walljumps and the Author did this jump, just check his movie to see.

I'm not an authority. I can't do it, and I think it's BS, especially on the console. That is all. I watched Jecy's 47:04, and that's the only time I've seen it go. And I called it bs, then tried, and still call it bs. Nothing more. SOME block gets hit every time I've given it a go.

No one's going to get "frame perfect" walljumps on a cart, or even on an emulator without slow-mo. Falling back on "well it works in a TAS" doesn't help players that aren't doing those (like maur).

Rapid fire/turbo is not allowed in console videos, hence my telling Maur not to worry about the Phantoon thing earlier.

Maur

2005-09-10 07:59:04 pm

All I'm saying is that although this topic is not intended for console-only stuff, it should be clearly recognized that stuff like the phantoon kill and the spark through the grapple room is TAS-only, and that the distinction should be made. Which it has.

Red Scarlet

2005-09-10 08:01:46 pm

I('d) like to watch (some MP3 runs)

That's my goal, too. :o

No red herrings for Maur.

Maur

2005-09-10 08:03:07 pm

Doh. -_-

Screwy

2005-09-11 01:45:17 am

Quote from Saturn:

Also why didn't you recorded a movie if you beat this game in 36 min to show other your skill?

Well i dont really know but Im recording a <35 and have finished 2 segments out of 5.

EDIT: Just so you know Im doing it on emu. so it not going to world record or something Wink