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kirbymastah: 2014-02-14 11:53:10 pm
kirbymastah: 2014-02-14 11:03:08 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:27:14 pm
Data dump for amount of time each missile tank costs. This is routing for Any%.

Missile Tank in Sector 6 start - 4:08
Missile Tank by Animals - 4:18
Missile Tank by Main Deck elevator, after animals - 4:35
Missile Tank by Spitter Room - 4:34
Missile Tank before Yakuza - 5:00
Missile Tank in Main Deck, 3rd one before entering Sector 1 - 5:00

Nettori times:
IM = ice missile, CB = charge beam, PB = power bomb
48 IM, 1 CB, 1 PB  fastest
43 IM, 4 CB, 2 PB  +2:14
39 IM, 7 CB, 3 PB  +5:60
34 IM, 10 CB, 4 PB +7:00

Each test was done in real-time five times each, then the average times were taken.

A power bomb is planted just before falling down the pit blocks against nettori; the test was done with one starting charge beam.

For each charge beam against nettori, an ice missile was fired right after it during its cooldown.
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Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:28:42 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:28:08 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:27:39 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:26:10 pm
As expected, having 40 missiles for nettori is more efficient than having 45 or 50.

However, having 35 costs only 1 second 4 frames on nettori. This means that 35 missiles is the ideal count.

This is also reliably enough to defeat nightmare quickly. Use charge beam + missile twice on phase 1, then you can finish nightmare's high gravity phase with four charge beams reliably (using only one missile makes it five charge beams, and more missiles are uneccessary). Then assuming you spam missiles at nightmare, and two-round his last phase (meaning two plasma shots), you should have 3-5 missiles left for the core-x, which is reliably enough to finish it quickly and also gives you enough time to grab a missile drop.

Another interesting note is that the fastest missile tank is the one by sector 6; use the 100% strat where you plant a bomb by the block on the way to varia suit. On the way back, get it and spring ball out. However, it's a lot easier to mess up this missile tank than the one by animals, so you could maybe opt for the animals missile tank instead.

tl;dr, after the first three missile tanks before sector 1, and BOB in sector 3, only get one more missile tank, either the one at the start of sector 6, or the one after saving the animals.

So skip one of our standard 40 missile tanks, and we just saved 3 seconds.

I didn't test having only 30 missiles, as that makes fighting nightmare unreliable; you MIGHT have barely enough to finish nightmare, but the core-x becomes risky and you'll definitely have fewer chances to double missile it.
Edit history:
Dragonfangs: 2013-06-25 10:05:22 am
Last time Biospark and I was discussing this, skipping the third missile tank was the main point, I considered it too risky for the gain overall, but spark wasn't convinced.

Interesting to see the elevator tank being so slow. We might want to skip that in favor of apparently sector 6? getting out of that room feels somewhat unreliable though.

Also you're kind of not using very many power bombs on Nettori, my personal any% strat is 37M 6CB 5PB. With the bonus of being perfectly 2000 for great math.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:45:33 pm
Hm I only squeeze in power bombs between charge shots; I don't do it between missiles since it doesn't seem worth it. I'm pretty sure using 39 missiles is faster than using 37 missiles and two power bombs; it IS riskier though, since you don't have as much room to tink missiles on its plasma shots.
Well in any%, adding PBs means subtracting charge beams, which is clearly worth it. I was using 39M 5CB 5PB at first, but I preferred the safety of 3 missiles left for the core.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:49:29 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:49:29 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:49:29 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:48:29 pm
Hm we could take a look at it again, but I don't think it'll change the time differences too much; 35 missiles seems to be ideal, and still reasonably reliable as long as you don't tink more than one missile.

I also personally hate using power bombs between ice missiles, as it ruins my rhythm and dodging plasma shots =/ personal preference i guess

Also, if you'er going for 40 missiles, then yeah I would replace the main deck elevator with the sector 6 missile tank. Having the five missiles earlier makes it easier to manage missiles for meltdown too (though it's usually not a problem, but hey it helps).

the main deck missile tank was tested against doing the "tap left while speedboosting to stop" trick to go down the elevator; if you jump through the door, or mess up going down the elevator, then the missile tank doesn't cost as much time.
Though to be fair, I think I'll start skipping Energy tanks before I start skipping Missile tanks. And if I was going to skip a missile it would probably be the third one on the main deck, it should be way slower than any else.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:53:59 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:53:28 pm
kirbymastah: 2013-06-24 09:52:37 pm
Yeah I'm starting to skip the e-tank before Yakuza. I should probably time the third missile tank, but yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it was the slowest.

I'm not sure if you've had this problem before, but I usually have just enough missiles in sector 3 to both missile spam the sidehoppers in the hall to get a speedboost, and deal with BOX and the sidehoppers after; taking out the third missile tank would make this worse. Then again, I haven't tried it out enough, so... eh? If it's not more than a second slower, then I'll probably still get it since it makes the beginning parts of the game a lot easier.

Furthermore, you're much more likely to have to get the red-x for the charge-beam core-x and zazabi if you skip that missile tank, which is up to 2 seconds lost, depending on your luck (who cares about missiles for serris, and mega-x's red x you're probably always gonna get regardless). You can tell I'm biased for it since I like it :P
i think he's talking about the one by the elevator on the main deck (the third one on your list). though i'm not sure how you're always low on missiles in sec 3. i guess i just conserve them well in sector 4 and 3.

i think i'm going to stick with 40 missiles. i ran out a few times on nightmare with 35, but maybe i'll try again. but, i will look into getting the missile in sector 6 instead of the elevator one.
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2014-02-14 11:08:34 pm
kirbymastah: 2014-02-14 11:03:19 pm
Random update

I timed how long the 3rd missile tank in Main Deck costs to get (before going to sector 1) and I basically got exactly 5 in-game seconds compared to not getting the missile tank.

So using my any% missile route (where I skip the 3rd missile tank on Main Deck, and get the sector 6 one instead) saves one second, which was what I originally thought, so yay!

Is it worth sacrificing those 5 missiles for earlygame? I personally have no trouble having 20 missiles pre-BOB, as long as I take at most one hit in the first pirate shaft of sector 1.

I've updated the first post appropriately
well, i usually have 7-9 missiles after the box fight, iirc. that means i would have 2-4, which would lose time on the barrier in sec 6
Quote from BioSpark:
well, i usually have 7-9 missiles after the box fight, iirc. that means i would have 2-4, which would lose time on the barrier in sec 6

IIRC you said that shinesparking the barrier is barely any slower than missiling it? as in, frames slower?

Also yeah, I typically have 2-4 upon leaving sector 3 so like around half the time, i can missile the barrier
don't remember, i'd have to re-time it. but doesn't getting the missiles this way also barely save time?
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2014-02-14 11:54:08 pm
Getting the sector 6 missile tank is barely faster than getting one of the two animals missile tank. However, it's 1 second faster than the missile tank before leaving Main Deck, right after arachnus.

I get both animal missile tanks, the sector 6 missile tank, BOB, and the two before arachnus, which totals to 40
ah ok. i'll consider it. i'm going to reevaluate a ton of stuff around mid-may, so i'll probably stream that on emulator around then
Edit history:
kirbymastah: 2014-02-14 11:59:01 pm
Yeah, it was an iffy missile tank when compared to the animals ones because you have to get the spring ball out of the tunnel for it to be frames faster, but it's not really that bad; I get it really consistently now so yeah
yeah it's really not that bad to get. i'm sure i'll re-time everything eventually to be sure
Shifty Leader
That M2k2 guy
You said you started timing for Nettori right before breaking the blocks. This means, I'm guessing, you don't plant a PB as soon as you enter the room and charge a beam as you fall?
I don't specifically remember when I started the timing, but I remember using a PB before the pit blocks, and start charging a beam; shoot the first beam when I'm in position.