a philosophical question

2003-11-01 04:14:36 pm

do you think it's possible to convey emotion with words?

say i'm in love and i say to someone, 'i'm in love and i haven't eaten in two days,' and they say 'yeah, i know exactly what you mean!' do they really know exactly what i mean?

since there's no way to be sure they know (i.e. i can't momentarily feel what they were feeling), should we trust our words to communicate how we feel?

for bonus points, describe situations in your life in which you have either successfully or unsuccessfully described to others how you were feeling. success might be identified if the other person correctly names symptoms of your emotional state, i.e. <you> i can't believe (he or she) left me! <other person> hard to sleep, isn't it?

Thread title:

Faust

2003-11-03 01:29:52 pm

I would have to say that it isn't possible to fully convey emotion with words. Emotion has a metaphysical component that cannot be reproduced through words. You can describe an emotion, but you cannot make someone else feel what you are feeling simply because the words we use can't capture the immaterial quality of an emotion. I think we can better convey an emotion through body language, facial expressions, and vocal inflection or tone, than with words.

As a weird example, take one of my friends; whenever he says he's angry about something, he always has a wide grin on his face, like he's happy about it. I think his facial expression betrays the true emotion he is feeling rather than what his words would have me think he's feeling. If a robot says it's sad in a mechanical voice, you can't sympathize with that feeling. If you hear it say it in a sad voice and perhaps have a visual sense of the feeling via body language and facial expression, then the emotion has been conveyed more effectively.

So it's not the words we say so much as how we say them.

I would have to say that it isn't possible to [i]fully[/i] convey emotion with words. Emotion has a metaphysical component that cannot be reproduced through words. You can describe an emotion, but you cannot make someone else feel what you are feeling simply because the words we use can't capture the immaterial quality of an emotion.  I think we can better convey an emotion through body language, facial expressions, and vocal inflection or tone, than with words.

As a weird example, take one of my friends; whenever he says he's angry about something, he always has a wide grin on his face, like he's happy about it. I think his facial expression betrays the true emotion he is feeling rather than what his words would have me think he's feeling. If a robot says it's sad in a mechanical voice, you can't sympathize with that feeling.  If you [i]hear[/i] it say it in a sad voice and perhaps have a visual sense of the feeling via body language and facial expression, then the emotion has been conveyed more effectively.

So it's not the words we say so much as how we say them.

dpurdu

2003-11-03 03:17:14 pm

Quote from njahnke:

...do they really know exactly what i mean?

since there's no way to be sure they know (i.e. i can't momentarily feel what they were feeling), should we trust our words to communicate how we feel?

A very interesting question but unfortunately not one that can be answered with any degree of accuracy on the grounds that all sensations are subjective.

Take something really simple, a red rose, a fire truck and a strawberry, we all agree they are red, but there is no way at all to tell if the red that I see is the same as the red you see. Maybe your red is acctually my blue. Equally its impossible to know if we all see the same red. Emotions are way more complex and subject to a huge number of variables. I am not going to say no, but I am going to say highly unlikely.

Now I am going to shoot myself in the foot and say that even though I am not fluent in her language, I am pretty sure my wife knew what I meant, and what I was feeling when I asked her to marry me.

[quote="njahnke"] ...do they really know exactly what i mean?

since there's no way to be sure they know (i.e. i can't momentarily feel what they were feeling), should we trust our words to communicate how we feel?
  [/quote]

A very interesting question but unfortunately not one that can be answered with any degree of accuracy on the grounds that all sensations are subjective.

Take something really simple, a red rose, a fire truck and a strawberry, we all agree they are red, but there is no way at all to tell if the red that I see is the same as the red you see. Maybe your red is acctually my blue. Equally its impossible to know if we all see the same red. Emotions are way more complex and subject to a huge number of variables. I am not going to say no, but I am going to say highly unlikely.

Now I am going to shoot myself in the foot and say that even though I am not fluent in her language, I am pretty sure my wife knew what I meant, and what I was feeling when I asked her to marry me.

nate

2003-11-03 10:36:26 pm

Quote:

Now I am going to shoot myself in the foot and say that even though I am not fluent in her language, I am pretty sure my wife knew what I meant, and what I was feeling when I asked her to marry me.

so we're clinging onto this expressed common ground, which is always shifting and is not even guaranteed to be there. i agree, i really think people should appreciate when they have it good, because it can get infinitely worse in an instant, and they might not even see it coming.

good discussion.

fingercuffs2006

2004-01-11 03:21:25 am

We had this discussion in the first two weeks of my French Feminist Theory class. In the end we postulated it as a reasonable assumption to use for other things.

nate

2004-01-11 09:41:52 pm

i would imagine supporting this thesis would support the feminists' stuff about 'oh men would never understand' :P

fingercuffs2006

2004-01-11 11:54:12 pm

To be honest I don't really remember what we learned in that class. I don't remember much of anything about it. I didn't participate in the discussions at all, and it was a seminar-type class. Somehow I got an A in it. Hooray for inflated grades in the humanities!

HataRaes

2004-01-14 11:31:50 am

french feminist what?? i wish i had that class. just the name of it sounds like a room full of people that would hate me. when i just tried to write that my teacher was badgering me on how my moms a saint already and whut not... aww man i dont even remeber where i was, or what my un-important point was even going to be.

ahh yes, its impossible to show emotion with words, unless you know exactly where the person is coming from and how they think. some people could be completely genuine, others could just decieve you. and with most people you just might miss their point.

--->a quick yes and no, dont you think a life size poster of ted bundy (not al bundy!!) is more inspirational than a life size poster of muhammed ali?

The Last Metroid

2004-01-19 11:25:35 pm

It isn't possible to communitace emotion. They have to be conveyed in a much deeper sense; a girl can say she loves me, but its easy to tell whether or not she means it.

fingercuffs2006

2004-01-22 05:21:55 pm

It's not possible to convey emotion with words. Chris Case Study:

I asked this skank if she would like to have dinner and a movie with me on Friday night. She said yes, but backed out of it when she arrived. Apparently she thought I meant we would be eating dinner at a restaurant and watching a movie at the theater afterwards. When I said dinner and a movie, by "dinner" I meant we'd be having sex, and by "movie" I meant I'd be filming it.

I hooked up with this ugly girl and she said she was "disease-free." I thought this meant she was free of any sexually transmittable diseases, but apparently in Ugly Girl language this translates to "genital herpes."

Thank you.

Syl

2004-02-06 12:09:47 am

Its completely possible to convey emotions with words if used in the right context.
now, by the end of a story, you should easily be able to see what the emotions of the people are, and understand anything they say along with the emotion behind it.

In a paragraph, it would be seemingly impossible unless it was the best written paragraph on the planet.

I've seduced enough women online/talked enough over aim.. that when you need to show an emotion, and know someone well enough, it can easily accurately be established through words, even without ever talking in real life.

Everything is relative however.
Relativity is what makes the world go round.
hell, "the world is spinning" is relative to something else in itself.

RoboBlob

2004-02-06 12:40:17 pm

Ever heard of tone? It's a peotic device used to do just what you're asking.

Syl

2004-02-06 05:48:12 pm

Quote from RoboBlob:

Ever heard of tone? It's a peotic device used to do just what you're asking.

Tone isn't applicable in text..
which is what i thought this discussion was about...
if its not, then the answer would of course have to be a gigantic "yes" it is possible, but I for some reason (perhaps just becuase i was tired) thought this thread was referencing purely to works that were written.

RoboBlob

2004-02-06 06:07:37 pm

Actually, tone IS applicable in text. As I said, it is a poetic device. I'm studying poetry right now, and though I hate it, I know what I'm blabbin' about. Ask Dominican Zero. He is definately the language expert round these parts.

Light of Day

2004-02-06 06:55:48 pm

I believe that yes, it is possible to convey emotion with text, to a degree. While emotion itself cannot be described even remotely accuratly through text, it can be described well enough for someone else to get a good idea of what you're feeling if they've felt similarly themselves. For instance, lately I've been feeling irratable, sleepless and all round stressed. While giving the symptoms doesn't tell you what I've been feeling, if any of you have experienced similar symptoms before there's a good chance you know how I'm feeling. It's not failsafe; you could have experienced the same symptoms but felt differently, or never experinced them at all, in which case you wouldn't have a clue how I've been feeling. More often than not, however, that is adequate enough to give at least a partial idea of what emotions I'm experiencing right now.
But this is only the simplest of examples. Careful use of descriptive text will help to reinforce memories of similar events, making it more likely the reader will recognise the emotion that is attempting to be conveyed. Even if they don't mean it, a writer (or speaker) will leave subtle clues as to their current state of mind in what they write (or speak); clues that can be unconsciously recognised, conveying emotions even when it's unintentional.

nate

2004-02-06 07:07:37 pm

Quote from Light of Day:

It's not failsafe; you could have experienced the same symptoms but felt differently, or never experinced them at all, in which case you wouldn't have a clue how I've been feeling.

so it's looking like a hit or miss situation. can sometimes be said to be effective, but no guarantees.

Tetris Ling

2004-02-06 07:15:52 pm

This isn't a matter of language, it's a matter of belief. The concept of tone relies upon the underlying belief that the communication of emotion through language is possible. So that line of reasoning gets us nowhere.

To a certain extent, all forms of art also require this assumption, because art, in it's most elemental form, is an attempt to instill some sort of emotion in others. So, if it isn't possible, then it can be argued that all the art humanity produced is worthless and without purpose. I doubt this. Not that that wouldn't be entertaining. I just don't buy it. Maybe it's because I'm secretly a romantic.

If your really want to get into semantics, (which is always tempting with questions such as these) then it's important to note that when someone says "I know exactly what you mean." they don't neccicarily mean they know "exactly". It's just a way to express a strong degree of empathy. We have a linguistic tendancy towards hyperbole, which I adore, but which makes careful analysis of spoken words extremely difficult.

Empathy, incidentaly, is one of my favourite features of the human psyche, right up there with imagination and defense mechanisms.

On a pragmatic level, it's best to assume you can convey emotions with words, just in case.

I just noticed I am way over my sylable-per-word allowance, so here is a list of short words I enjoy:
quaff, dude, pep, mecha, sweet, hack, liquid, level, aid, ease, barge, nick, sig, and knee.

This isn't a matter of language, it's a matter of belief.  The concept of tone relies upon the underlying belief that the communication of emotion through language is possible. So that line of reasoning gets us nowhere.

To a certain extent, all forms of art also require this assumption, because art, in it's most elemental form, is an attempt to instill some sort of emotion in others.  So, if it isn't possible, then it can be argued that all the art humanity produced is worthless and without purpose.  I doubt this.  Not that that wouldn't be entertaining.  I just don't buy it.  Maybe it's because I'm secretly a romantic.

If your really want to get into semantics, (which is always tempting with questions such as these) then it's important to note that when someone says "I know exactly what you mean." they don't neccicarily mean they know "exactly".  It's just a way to express a strong degree of empathy.  We have a linguistic tendancy towards hyperbole, which I adore, but which makes careful analysis of spoken words extremely difficult.

Empathy, incidentaly, is one of my favourite features of the human psyche, right up there with imagination and defense mechanisms.

On a pragmatic level, it's best to assume you can convey emotions with words, just in case.

I just noticed I am way over my sylable-per-word allowance, so here is a list of short words I enjoy:
quaff, dude, pep, mecha, sweet, hack, liquid, level, aid, ease, barge, nick, sig, and knee.

RoboBlob

2004-02-06 08:23:30 pm

You guys hit it on the head. It's possible, (AS THE QUESTION OF THIS THREAD ASKS) but not definite.

Tetris Ling

2004-02-06 08:57:41 pm

Quote from RoboBlob:

It's possible, (AS THE QUESTION OF THIS THREAD ASKS) but not definite.

Bah. It's nothing of the sort. The truth of the matter is simply beyond our capcity to know. "Possible but not definite" is as close as we can come to the truth, not the truth itself. The two should not be confused.

What's that? You say I should just shut up, then?

Nonsense. The fun is in the speculation.

Light of Day

2004-02-06 09:06:04 pm

Quote from Tetris Ling:

Quote from RoboBlob:

It's possible, (AS THE QUESTION OF THIS THREAD ASKS) but not definite.

Bah. It's nothing of the sort. The truth of the matter is simply beyond our capcity to know. "Possible but not definite" is as close as we can come to the truth, not the truth itself. The two should not be confused.

The "truth", as far as I can see, is that we cannot ever find out the exact truth. We can, however, find an approximate truth to most things. Something that, although not 100% certain, is close enough that we can call it certain without worry. I'd say calling the ability for words to convey emotion possible is close enough that we may as well call it truth. At least, that's how it looks from my (highly subjective) point of view. :P