A battle of game characters

2004-02-24 05:57:38 pm

I've been having this argument with a friend of mine over who would win a fight between Samus and Link.

I say Samus (obviously) due to her having over 1000HP her advanced weaponry and above all SHE CAN JUMP!

He thinks Link because of when he gets hit he only loses 1/4 of a heart and when Samus gets hit she hurts bucket loads. Also the medallions from LTTP and the spells from OOT are powerful. As well as mask switching to block certain attacks

Goron -= Missiles, Super Missiles etc.
Zora - Ice Beam

Mirror shield to reflect ALL beams.

I still think she'd cream him. What do you all think?

Thread title:

Toozin

2004-02-24 06:19:15 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

You can't properly judge a fight like this based on anything, because the mechanics of each game don't translate into the other. How many units of energy equals one heart piece? How many units of damage does a light arrow do to Samus in the Varia suit? It's all hearsay and hubub, so there's no point in debating it unless you put them on a level playing field.

That level playing field has a name, by the way. It starts with S and ends with uper Smash Bros.

skynes

2004-02-24 06:20:42 pm

No way. Link is way stronger than Samus in SSB. There isn't a level big enough to take advantage of Samus' long range attacks. All tiny things or tall things. Link wins hands down.

nate

2004-02-24 06:28:18 pm

Quote from skynes:

X is way stronger than Y in SSB.

CAL?

Toozin

2004-02-24 06:28:35 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

I mean level in that they're dealing with the same units of measurement. They both take and deal damage on the same scale.

You can convert celsius into farenheight but you can't convert celsius into centimeters. See what I'm saying?

Yoshi348

2004-02-24 06:29:40 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Heh, I did a double take until I realized it wasn't SSBM.

Still, in SSB, Link can't jump for CRAP. That REALLY hurts him. Very.

Apple Juice

2004-02-24 06:43:38 pm

Samus, definatly. Link is awesome, it would be pretty close..if you include his ability to cut time in half. (MM) He'd be a pretty nice match.

Sesshoumaru

2004-02-24 07:22:00 pm

Oh I'm sorry, for a moment I thought I was at a gamefaqs message board.

Toozin's right, apples and oranges. Either case could be argued with equally convincing nonsense, but without a level playing field it's still nonsense.

Are they fighting in a 2-d realm or 3-d? If 2-d, from overhead or side? Which samus and link game are you taking them from?

Does the screw attack hurt link when he's using nayru's love? The mirror shield can deflect ANY projectile in his games, does this still apply? Can arrows and swords cut through armor? Does the boomerang stun samus or hurt her? Does the ice beam freeze link or just hurt?

You get the idea. It doesn't work. You might as well ask whether cherry tastes better than blueberry and attempt to back it up with reasons. You can't back it up with reasons, don't try.

The Last Metroid

2004-02-24 09:19:16 pm

Skynes, you've posted an insane amount today.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=excessive

CALFoolio

2004-02-24 09:25:49 pm

Quote from skynes:

No way. Link is way stronger than Samus in SSB. There isn't a level big enough to take advantage of Samus' long range attacks. All tiny things or tall things. Link wins hands down.

If you are talking about original SSB for N64 then you are very wrong. Link and Samus are very comparable to each other. Samus is actually much better at close range brawling than long range fighting. Link has no significant advantage over Samus aside from the high priority of his sword, but then he has his weaknesses as well like his horribly lack of recovery.

The Last Metroid

2004-02-24 09:35:00 pm

Motha fucka got pwned.

Sarah

2004-02-24 11:29:38 pm

Quote from The Last Metroid:

Skynes, you've posted an insane amount today.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=excessive

I don't think people tend to mind when there's actual substance to the posts ;)

Dark_T_Zeratul

2004-02-25 03:23:04 am

I think it would take a good amount of work for Link to survive a Power Bomb, with or without the Mirror Shield.

Paratroopa1

2004-02-25 04:02:06 am

CATS would pwn them both.

skynes

2004-02-25 09:56:58 am

In SSB they are equal. I agree to that. Samus has a deadly upper kick in SSB (all the somersaulting and space jumping gives her very strong legs)

I was thinking SSBM. Samus sucks in it.

I hate saying that... Samus sucks. But unfortunately she really does in SSBM. The levels are too small or too toall for her weapons to be of any use. and the bomb.... WHY!?!?
--------

Yeah I know I've posted an insane amount... What am I on. 53 posts or something? in 2 days?
I usually post lots if a thread interests me... Since all the threads here are about Metroid - they ALL interest me ;)

Rox

2004-02-25 04:34:54 pm

No character in SSBM sucks. Everything depends on your style and strategy. A friend of mine is very much convinced that Pichu is the one worst character in that game. Another of my friends seems to dominate everyone else if he can play with Pichu. From what I've experienced, they're all VERY balanced. With a few possible exceptions...

Anyway. Comparing things like this sucks. But IF we wanted to compare... er... should we think logically, or gameistically? Should a shield be able to withstand a missile or be blown to pieces? Should a magical metal-piercing sword really be stopped by an energy-driven suit? Oh, and depending on the game, I'm fairly convinced that Link's shield can stop pretty much anything. I mean... he can hold a bomb _between_ the shield and himself and still have the shield block the blast... And if we give Samus the ability to jump a few miles up... it's just...

You shouldn't compare things that don't belong in the same universe. Really. Stop doing it.

Sesshoumaru

2004-02-25 04:49:42 pm

Uh oh....

Okay, this is going to turn into a tier fight. I say fight because there's no such thing as tier discussions. The gamefaqs melee board is a horrible horrible place to go. You know what I mean.

So if no one minds, I'm going to try to stamp out the fire before it starts.

Here is my view of it: characters are well balanced, not perfectly balanced. If you are accustomed to high-level play, with a working knowledge of and extensive extensive experience with competitive play with people who are very good, then some characters suck, yes. Tiers exist FOR THOSE PEOPLE. There is plenty of evidence to back it up, that if two people know everything about a character and are equally skilled, some characters have advantages over others, sometimes major ones.

If you are NOT one of these people, tiers do not exist for you. For example, I never play against other people. Does this mean I'm not good at the game? Well if by "good" you mean can I beat people who ARE used to competitive play, then no, I'm not. I have a fine knowledge of the characters for my purposes, I've beaten all 3 modes on very hard with every charcter. To have more knowledge than my purposes require would be pointless. For me, the "standard" tiers do not exist. For me Mewtwo is one of the top tier characters, and Pichu is very low, because that's based on how good I personally am with them when playing by myself, because that's all I'd ever do.

So, no one say tiers do or don't exist. Just say they exist for some, not others. I emplore you, do not turn this into another gamefaqs board.

Fighting starts when people try to say the case for them is the absolute case for all. Skill is the ultimate equalizer for some, character tiers play a giant factor for others, but please for the love of God let's neither side try to say that either is the "true" case. No good will come of that.

Uh oh....

Okay, this is going to turn into a tier fight.  I say fight because there's no such thing as tier discussions.  The gamefaqs melee board is a horrible horrible place to go.  You know what I mean.

So if no one minds, I'm going to try to stamp out the fire before it starts.

Here is my view of it:  characters are well balanced, not perfectly balanced.  If you are accustomed to high-level play, with a working knowledge of and extensive extensive experience with competitive play with people who are very good, then some characters suck, yes.  Tiers exist FOR THOSE PEOPLE.  There is plenty of evidence to back it up, that if two people know everything about a character and are equally skilled, some characters have advantages over others, sometimes major ones.

If you are NOT one of these people, tiers do not exist for you.  For example, I never play against other people.  Does this mean I'm not good at the game?  Well if by "good" you mean can I beat people who ARE used to competitive play, then no, I'm not.  I have a fine knowledge of the characters for my purposes, I've beaten all 3 modes on very hard with every charcter.  To have more knowledge than my purposes require would be pointless.  For me, the "standard" tiers do not exist.  For me Mewtwo is one of the top tier characters, and Pichu is very low, because that's based on how good I personally am with them when playing by myself, because that's all I'd ever do.

So, no one say tiers do or don't exist.  Just say they exist for some, not others.  I emplore you, do not turn this into another gamefaqs board.

Fighting starts when people try to say the case for them is the absolute case for all.  Skill is the ultimate equalizer for some, character tiers play a giant factor for others, but please for the love of God let's neither side try to say that either is the "true" case.  No good will come of that.

Light of Day

2004-02-25 05:18:56 pm

Ah, tiers. I remember when I looked on the GameFAQs SSBM boards once. The first thread I looked at was a tiers fight, and it was a scary thing.

Thank you, Sess, for not only averting a terrible tragedy, but for also being the first person I've ever seen post something sensible about tiers. My opinion on them is very similar to yours: every player has their own tiers that are not neccessarily the same as anyone elses. An attempt to prove (or disprove) there is a universal ranking of characters will only end in tiers. I mean tears.

Toozin

2004-02-25 06:17:55 pm

Not impossible

just highly unlikely

This thread is becoming dangerously similar to a GameFAQs thread, which is the last thing I want to see happen to this forum. Please, people, no more tier debates or sensless arguments over who's dad can beat up your dad... I mean, which video game character can beat up another of an unrelated universe. I'll leave this thread open, but if it gets too stupid or senseless in here it WILL be closed.

Radix

2004-02-25 08:18:42 pm

Quote from Sesshoumaru:

I've beaten all 3 modes on very hard with every charcter.

That's amazing... any advice for me on all star mode? I get my ass thoroughly kicked once it's 3 vs 1. I've only actually done it with roy and jigglypuff, and puff took 27 continues, mostly on the G&W team. If I tried to fight them with normal stuff, i'd get killed before I got more than a couple. I had to resort to trying to rest them all which still took many tries.

Xoc

2004-02-25 08:58:32 pm

Vern: You think Mighty Mouse could beat up Superman?

Teddy: What are you, cracked?

Vern: Why not?! I saw the other day he was carrying five elephants in one hand.

Teddy: Boy, you don't know nothing. Mighty Mouse is a cartoon. Superman is a real guy. No way a cartoon could beat up a real guy.

Vern: Yeah, maybe you're right. ...It'd be a good fight, though.

Sesshoumaru

2004-02-25 09:26:22 pm

whoops, did I mistype character? I really should proofread before posting. But... My posts are so long... I'm always too lazy to read over what I wrote. Especially since I already know what they say.

Anyway, the number 1 secret to my success with that game, is the same as for all my games, lots of extra time. I also had to pour many many many continues into all-star. My good characters didn't need any, but the majority of the characters sucked up 20 or 30, some took like, 80 (pichu)

regardless, most of it was coins. I'd go to young link's target test, then change the channel to some cartoons and just hit down on the control stick over and over and over until I built my coins up to 999. And I'd do that for every character.

Come to think of it that controller doesn't work anymore, the control stick is busted...

Well anyways, with 3 on one it depends entirely on who you're using. If you're using someone like Mario, I usually would run around the arena trying to get one of them away from the other two, then take a few pot shots and repeat before the other two closed in. With a burly character like Bowser, just jump into the fray and go smash crazy, down A and what not. For someone like Mewtwo, you're going to want to be kind of like mario, but constantly grabbing one and throwing them into the others. With yoshi you can do the air down-A on them, or throw eggs over and over from afar.

Anyway, the point is, spend the first part just getting damage on them while staying the heck away. Always leave yourself outs, small stages are bad for 3 on 1. Sometimes I'd just reset cause I got a really sucky matchup or stage. That's fine too. Nothing wrong with trying for good random factors to be successful. If you have to fight 3 fast peoples, you're probably going to want to reset, cause you're not going to be able to get one away from the others very easily. Usually try to pick off the fast ones, by the way, so you can keep away better.

Also you need to assess situations on the fly. Like if you're fighting marth, kirby, and mewtwo, who are you going to take out first? I'd take out marth first, then focus on whoever has the most damage on them.

Anyway, once they're all decently damaged, 60 or 70% or so. Or even if just one is, then try to pick them off. Some people are easier to kill with than others in these situations. With Mewtwo I never had a problem, just grab one and throw them out of the ring when they have decent damage. Mario also is a good thrower when it's behind him. A burly guy you're just going to smash until they die. Someone like falcon you need to abuse the special moves. Then you got the weirdoes like yoshi, with their learning curves. You just kind of have to play it by ear with them.

Speaking of learning curves, someone like pichu just... well he plays keep away real good, I just went bobbing for items with that fellow, that was the best I could do with him. I'm really not good with him. Pikachu I can hold my own with. You wouldn't think they'd be that different but man, it's just insane the gap in how good I am with those two

But yeah, the 3 on 1 is all about first taking pot-shots while staying away from the crowd, then picking off whoever you feel is hindering you most, probably in order of how fast they are.

Then of course you have the game and watch team. On very hard they don't do the 'fly a million miles from one hit' bit, which sucks. It's kind of the same strategy as 3 on 1, as in you want to pick one off if you can, or take pot shots when they're all together. It's easy to get them out of the ring cause it's so small, it's doing it for all of them that's the problem. Someone like mewtwo will destroy these guys on that tiny little arena. Practically every backwards throw is a ko if you're close to the edge. Brawlers like bowser have a decent time with this too. Your fast but not as strong characters, they're going to be tough to use here. Either way, this is where most of the continues are probably going to go, yeah. Which is why I refill to 999 every time. I almost didn't have enough for pichu even still.

You need to get used to how they fight, too. They like to do the running A. A lot. If you see one running toward you you can bet your bosom they're gonna do it. If one is close to you and the others aren't, you can usually stand by the edge and let one charge you, then block his attack and grab him and throw him back. If your using someone with sucky throws, you can do a rolling dodge to get behind him and use some quick moves to try to push him out. Don't do the stand by the edge thing if they're all grouped though. You want them to seperate. Just like any 3 on 1, jump around until one gets away from the others, then pot shot and don't overstay your welcome.

Of course none of this helped me as much as just, having lots of coins. And resetting if I didn't like what I was getting :P

Oh yeah, whenever I'd start a match I'd take the memory card out, so if I used coins, it wouldn't save. Then I'd only save if I didn't end up resetting or something. No reason to waste coins.

Hope that helps. Of course you can always just look for a faq on a particular character for tips on how to beat all star with them specifically. That'll probably be better than advice from me. There weren't many good ones back when I did this, the game was pretty new, but I'm sure now that there's national tournamentsand what not that people have all kinds of in-depth knowledge to the characters that I don't Crying or Very sad

whoops, did I mistype character?  I really should proofread before posting.  But... My posts are so long... I'm always too lazy to read over what I wrote.  Especially since I already know what they say.

Anyway, the number 1 secret to my success with that game, is the same as for all my games, lots of extra time.  I also had to pour many many many continues into all-star.  My good characters didn't need any, but the majority of the characters sucked up 20 or 30, some took like, 80 (pichu)

regardless, most of it was coins.  I'd go to young link's target test, then change the channel to some cartoons and just hit down on the control stick over and over and over until I built my coins up to 999.  And I'd do that for every character.

Come to think of it that controller doesn't work anymore, the control stick is busted...

Well anyways, with 3 on one it depends entirely on who you're using.  If you're using someone like Mario, I usually would run around the arena trying to get one of them away from the other two, then take a few pot shots and repeat before the other two closed in.  With a burly character like Bowser, just jump into the fray and go smash crazy, down A and what not.  For someone like Mewtwo, you're going to want to be kind of like mario, but constantly grabbing one and throwing them into the others.  With yoshi you can do the air down-A on them, or throw eggs over and over from afar.

Anyway, the point is, spend the first part just getting damage on them while staying the heck away.  Always leave yourself outs, small stages are bad for 3 on 1.  Sometimes I'd just reset cause I got a really sucky matchup or stage.  That's fine too.  Nothing wrong with trying for good random factors to be successful.  If you have to fight 3 fast peoples, you're probably going to want to reset, cause you're not going to be able to get one away from the others very easily.  Usually try to pick off the fast ones, by the way, so you can keep away better.

Also you need to assess situations on the fly.  Like if you're fighting marth, kirby, and mewtwo, who are you going to take out first?  I'd take out marth first, then focus on whoever has the most damage on them.

Anyway, once they're all decently damaged, 60 or 70% or so.  Or even if just one is, then try to pick them off.  Some people are easier to kill with than others in these situations.  With Mewtwo I never had a problem, just grab one and throw them out of the ring when they have decent damage.  Mario also is a good thrower when it's behind him.  A burly guy you're just going to smash until they die.  Someone like falcon you need to abuse the special moves.  Then you got the weirdoes like yoshi, with their learning curves.  You just kind of have to play it by ear with them.

Speaking of learning curves, someone like pichu just... well he plays keep away real good, I just went bobbing for items with that fellow, that was the best I could do with him.  I'm really not good with him.  Pikachu I can hold my own with.  You wouldn't think they'd be that different but man, it's just insane the gap in how good I am with those two

But yeah, the 3 on 1 is all about first taking pot-shots while staying away from the crowd, then picking off whoever you feel is hindering you most, probably in order of how fast they are.

Then of course you have the game and watch team.  On very hard they don't do the 'fly a million miles from one hit' bit, which sucks.  It's kind of the same strategy as 3 on 1, as in you want to pick one off if you can, or take pot shots when they're all together.  It's easy to get them out of the ring cause it's so small, it's doing it for all of them that's the problem.  Someone like mewtwo will destroy these guys on that tiny little arena.  Practically every backwards throw is a ko if you're close to the edge.  Brawlers like bowser have a decent time with this too.  Your fast but not as strong characters, they're going to be tough to use here.  Either way, this is where most of the continues are probably going to go, yeah.  Which is why I refill to 999 every time.  I almost didn't have enough for pichu even still.

You need to get used to how they fight, too.  They like to do the running A.  A lot.  If you see one running toward you you can bet your bosom they're gonna do it.  If one is close to you and the others aren't, you can usually stand by the edge and let one charge you, then block his attack and grab him and throw him back.  If your using someone with sucky throws, you can do a rolling dodge to get behind him and use some quick moves to try to push him out.   Don't do the stand by the edge thing if they're all grouped though.  You want them to seperate.  Just like any 3 on 1, jump around until one gets away from the others, then pot shot and don't overstay your welcome.

Of course none of this helped me as much as just, having lots of coins.  And resetting if I didn't like what I was getting  :P

Oh yeah, whenever I'd start a match I'd take the memory card out, so if I used coins, it wouldn't save.  Then I'd only save if I didn't end up resetting or something.  No reason to waste coins.

Hope that helps.  Of course you can always just look for a faq on a particular character for tips on how to beat all star with them specifically.  That'll probably be better than advice from me.  There weren't many good ones back when I did this, the game was pretty new, but I'm sure now that there's national tournamentsand what not that people have all kinds of in-depth knowledge to the characters that I don't  :cry:

Sesshoumaru

2004-02-25 09:31:40 pm

Did I write all that? Shocked

when I finished I thought I'd written, like, 3 paragraphs. Where'd the rest come from Shocked

Light of Day

2004-02-25 09:38:35 pm

Quote from Sesshoumaru:

Oh yeah, whenever I'd start a match I'd take the memory card out, so if I used coins, it wouldn't save. Then I'd only save if I didn't end up resetting or something. No reason to waste coins.

Why the hell didn't I think of that when I just wasted 80 coins trying to take Link through All-Star on hard? I ran out of coins in the end, I used my last ten on the last 3-way, and then entered the G&W team fight with 138% damage. At least it was a short fight...

Radix

2004-02-26 05:12:28 am

Thanks for the tips Sess, but I pretty much already knew the coin stuff. In fact when I succeeded with jiggly and took 27 continues, I didn't put the card back in because I was certain I was getting better with the puff meister and could do it with a lot less. Nope ! So my mem card still has just a yellow dot for everyone except roy who's red. I've got about 750 coins now I think, so it's not like I can't spare them... but I don't wait to break a controller to get a million coins either. :?