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tate
2010-07-04 10:56:46 pm
I tried to see how far i could get without wave beam once and one can get a long ways but that doesn't help the fact it is needed against mp.
072
2010-07-04 11:03:03 pm
coral to complement blue
If only there was something like the SA secret worlds from Echoes, missiles might be a possibility. X-Ray is so close, yet so far. Hard to say about Morphball. I still don't believe anyone has ever got bombs without it. I've heard the "you can't morph again after unmorphing the first time" a lot, but I'm pretty sure it was only speculation.

I guess Varia is the most likely, all things considered. But even that would take a miracle.
arkarian
2010-07-04 11:08:06 pm
red chamber dream
nah, just a few sws or something in magmoor. it's fairly plausible.

guess i'd better look into trying to get burn dome to load without morph ball. i can actually record with proper equipment this time too ... stay tuned.
072
2010-07-04 11:10:37 pm
coral to complement blue
Well SJ went what, 6 years with "just" a SW in magmoor? A few more in very specific places doesn't seem so likely...
072
2010-07-04 11:13:04 pm
coral to complement blue
BTW, doesn't boost put you in morphball form too? If so, it would be very easy to confirm what happens with AR.
rekameohs
2010-07-04 11:27:51 pm
Anywhere, everywhere
I don't know how well gamecube emulation is going, but maybe a tas could see how close we are to getting magmoor w/o varia.
072
2010-07-04 11:29:21 pm
coral to complement blue
I don't see how a 0-tank VMR is even conceivably possible, if that's what you're saying.
072
072
Edit history:
072: 2010-07-04 11:34:18 pm
2010-07-04 11:30:03 pm
coral to complement blue
Doesn't a 3-tank take perfect refill drops as it is? Not to mention charge beam.
rekameohs
2010-07-04 11:35:36 pm
Anywhere, everywhere
Or with secret worlds or something, idk. Nothing seems conceivably possible, honestly.
arkarian
2010-07-05 12:13:45 am
red chamber dream
well i think it would be more likely to not go through magmoor at all. trying to get through magmoor without varia is pretty futile really unless something new is found with wallcrawling where you don't take damage from heated rooms.
Baby Sheegoth
2010-07-05 12:22:53 am
Quote from arkarian:
nah, just a few sws or something in magmoor. it's fairly plausible.

guess i'd better look into trying to get burn dome to load without morph ball. i can actually record with proper equipment this time too ... stay tuned.

Uhm... as long as the game considers you 'inside' a hot room, it doesn't care where you physically are. As long as your minimap says you're 'inside' that room, you're gonna get hurt.
arkarian
2010-07-05 12:27:21 am
red chamber dream
i know that. that's why i said "unless something new is found". you'd have to somehow trick the game into thinking you're either a) in an unheated room or b) not on the map at all. this doesn't seem likely which is why i want to look into not going through heated magmoor at all to get to wave.
Boris
2010-07-05 12:37:28 am
The Overlord of All Acorns.
does the game necessarily check if a room is hot after the first hot room?

I remember when we were watching the 21% run that he managed to skip the trigger for the rear phendrana music.

if room trigger for heat is like the room trigger for music, the only heated rooms might be the ones beside elevators.

which may allow us to wallcrawl through magmoor (using the SW in burning trail) if no other solution is reached.
arkarian
2010-07-05 12:39:26 am
red chamber dream
certain rooms in the game are heated. if the map says you're in one of the rooms on that list, you'll take heat damage. there's no "trigger" for the heat.
Kharay1977
Kharay1977
Edit history:
Kharay1977: 2010-07-05 06:28:28 am
2010-07-05 06:27:24 am
OK, map experts... theoretical question - what's preventing us from simply completely skipping Magmoor? Like, getting to Phendrana (for Wave) another way?
MilesSMB
2010-07-05 06:46:27 am
Magmoor's the only area that connects to Phendrana.
Kharay1977
2010-07-05 07:14:18 am
Quote from MilesSMB:
Magmoor's the only area that connects to Phendrana.
Just checked a map of it... and, sigh, I should have known that one. Wink

Time I replayed MP, maybe.
Kharay1977
2010-07-05 09:34:34 am
So, to summarize:

- Morph Ball: No, acquiring just MBM does not give you the actual Morph Ball ability.
- Missiles: No, simply too many obstacles that require them.
- Varia: Maybe, only if some miraculous way is found to negate/ignore or bypass the heat damage in Magmoor. Or some way is found to get to Phendrana that does not involve Magmoor.
- X-Ray: No, unless by some strange quirk someone finds a way to damage OP without it.

What am I missing?
bartendorsparky
2010-07-05 10:06:23 am
always move fast
for missiles, iirc the only things that might be in the way are collecting ice beam (really, getting out afterward), and collecting morph ball.

wave only has getting lifegiver and beating prime i think.

ice only has getting warrior and beating prime i think.
recit0
2010-07-05 12:08:50 pm
and dont forget that you don't have SJ so there is a lot of Sws that we cant make w/o it.
Kharay1977
2010-07-05 12:12:30 pm
Quote from recit0:
and dont forget that you don't have SJ so there is a lot of Sws that we cant make w/o it.
Exactly. That alone makes Varia a very unlikely Maybe at best. Ark said it quite accurately a few posts back - unless something new is found, something really radical, 20% is a very long way off.

Sad thing there is, the sb population has worn a bit thin as of late.
arkarian
2010-07-05 02:46:45 pm
red chamber dream
it would be cool to look into though i think, if only because afaik no one's ever really done anything with skipping varia, especially not using another route to phendrana.
Kharay1977
2010-07-05 03:33:28 pm
Quote from arkarian:
it would be cool to look into though i think, if only because afaik no one's ever really done anything with skipping varia, especially not using another route to phendrana.
So, who do we have we can stir into working on this? I personally would love to, but I don't own 0-00 nor do I own an NTSC NGC. And with Dolphin simply not being feasible as yet that option is out for me as well. Not to mention it requiring a very, very beefy machine to begin with. Optimization hasn't been a big priority for the Dolphin team yet.
rekameohs
2010-07-05 04:22:20 pm
Anywhere, everywhere
Quote from arkarian:
especially not using another route to phendrana.
The only other route I could see possible is through the mines to magmoor, but then you've got the wave door at the mines elevator to deal with.
synbios
2010-07-05 04:35:11 pm
20% seems very unlikely. If it ends up possible, it will for sure involve crazy tricks.